Shane Duffy D Norwich b.1992

[elroy]

Back on topic, as much as I'd like to see Duffy chose us, I'm not all that upset that he's in the NI squad...they could probably use him more and from the player's perspective of he had declared for us he would of been nowhere near our squad to play Italy in Bari nor the return leg and now he looks like he's in line for a senior cap against Italy with t'other lot!

Well if he really wanted to play for us he would have rejected the call up, so fair play to him if he wants to play for NI and let that be the end of the matter.

[Predator]

Well if he really wanted to play for us he would have rejected the call up, so fair play to him if he wants to play for NI and let that be the end of the matter.

If you look at it from the player's perspective, he's a 17 year old lad who has only been professional since his 17th birthday (the start of this year according to the Everton website) and he has been performing very well according to match reports from various sources, making massive strides with Everton and N.Ireland. If I was 17 and offered this chance to play against the world champions (whether it's a B team or not), and I hadn't received any word from the FAI regarding a call up to a youth squad - which appears to be the case - I'd be extremely excited and I'd see it as a massive opportunity to better my football career.

I'm a Derry man and I have never and will never consider N.Ireland 'my team', but if Nigel Worthington was willing to reward my hard work with a senior cap against one of the top teams in the world, I'd probably be over the moon. I mean seriously, if you had to choose between senior international football with N.Ireland or u17 or u19 with R.o.I. what would you do?

[paul_oshea]

I don't know but id like to think ROI. However I dont think at that age you are as patriotic as when you get older. Its more about the here and now unfortunately, but thats where strong guidance comes in from those closest and around i.e. his father. Paternal parents are always more influential in the patriotic stakes or at least should be.

[Predator]

I don't know but id like to think ROI. However I dont think at that age you are as patriotic as when you get older. Its more about the here and now unfortunately, but thats where strong guidance comes in from those closest and around i.e. his father. Paternal parents are always more influential in the patriotic stakes or at least should be.

Yeah it is about the here and now unfortunately. I think that Duffy is taking his chance while it is being offered because a career in football is a precarious one, such is its nature.

According to an Everton fan forum, a guy claiming to be Duffy's cousin has stated that:

...Shane is eligible in every way to play for the Republic, holding an Irish passport and especially since his father is from Donegal...Some posters are claiming that Shane's Northern Irish, even though he has an Irish passport and would, like myself consider himself to be Irish. Given the opportunity, he'd preferably want to represent Ireland at international level, but if that opportunity did not arise, then certainly he'd like to be playing some form of international football.Link: http://www.toffeetalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8715&st=40

Like you said, I can't imagine that Duffy is concerned with patriotism and all that. He seems to be more concerned with furthering his career. With regard to guidance from his father - I'm sure he would rather his kid played for the Republic, being from Donegal. Maybe the Republic snubbed him? It's times like these when I get annoyed with the FAI. If the guy is good enough for the North's senior team (regardless of the match circumstances) then surely he would be deemed good enough to represent Ireland at under-age level. The FAI should really have made more of an effort to get him into the set up.

[paul_oshea]

Yes, exactly predator, thats what ****es me off to be honest. I wonder what half of these people do in these organisations, and get paid great money, I reckon they work about 10 hours a week, actual work, the rest is just taking it handy. They should be using any medium to find out about players and chasing them up etc.

[EalingGreen]

If you look at it from the player's perspective, he's a 17 year old lad who has only been professional since his 17th birthday (the start of this year according to the Everton website) and he has been performing very well according to match reports from various sources, making massive strides with Everton and N.Ireland. If I was 17 and offered this chance to play against the world champions (whether it's a B team or not), and I hadn't received any word from the FAI regarding a call up to a youth squad - which appears to be the case - I'd be extremely excited and I'd see it as a massive opportunity to better my football career.

I'm a Derry man and I have never and will never consider N.Ireland 'my team', but if Nigel Worthington was willing to reward my hard work with a senior cap against one of the top teams in the world, I'd probably be over the moon. I mean seriously, if you had to choose between senior international football with N.Ireland or u17 or u19 with R.o.I. what would you do?
Lot of sense there (imo).

P.S. This call-up will also be an opportunity to play for one of the top teams in the world, not just against one...;)

[EalingGreen]

According to an Everton fan forum, a guy claiming to be Duffy's cousin has stated that:
Link: http://www.toffeetalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8715&st=40

An earlier comment from "Noddy" (Duffy's cousin) from Jan08:
"Shane is actually also eligible to play for the Republic of Ireland, but he is keen on staying with the Northern Ireland team, because they have supported him all the way and also because the current group of players have a strong bond with one and other"



Like you said, I can't imagine that Duffy is concerned with patriotism and all that. He seems to be more concerned with furthering his career.
Breaking into the professional game is so bloody competitive that players need to remain absolutely single-minded on their career i.e. no time for drink, parties and girls etc, never mind politics etc.



With regard to guidance from his father - I'm sure he would rather his kid played for the Republic, being from Donegal.
Apparently his Da has also posted on that site (as "Finn Harp"?), stating clearly that he would prefer his son to represent ROI.



Maybe the Republic snubbed him?
It has been reported that Duffy was invited, and trained with, with one of the FAI under-age squads a while back, but for whatever reason, nothing seems to have come of it.



It's times like these when I get annoyed with the FAI. If the guy is good enough for the North's senior team (regardless of the match circumstances) then surely he would be deemed good enough to represent Ireland at under-age level. The FAI should really have made more of an effort to get him into the set up.
I have to disagree about the FAI's scouting set-up. Not only has it unearthed loads of 1st or 2nd generation players from GB down the years, but recently it has been very active in NI.
For example, an NI under-age team (U-16), made up of local NI-based players only, played their Australian counterparts, who were touring Europe at the time. Despite this game being very low-key (played in Fermanagh, late change of venue, early afternoon, midweek etc), two FAI Scouts were spotted in attendance.

By contrast, the IFA youth set-up was for years a total and utter joke - the responsibility of the U-21 manager, a jerk named Roy Millar, who made Don Givens look like Arsene Wenger (trust me, it's no exaggeration)

Anyhow, when Worthy took over, he insisted Millar be pushed upstairs, replacing him with an English mate called Steve Beaglehole(!). SB has already been an outstanding success, completely revamping the whole scouting and coaching set-up at all levels up to and including U-21. Already, this has led to us attracting a number of very promising 1st and 2nd generation youngsters from under the nose of the English FA etc.
Also, he and Worthington are attending to the (former) gaps in the network at home in NI, most notably Derry and the North West. And if the likes of Duffy and Eunan O'Kane are anything to go by, this may have turned the tide somewhat of players from that area opting for the ROI.

Anyhow, as far as Duffy is concerned, there are at least 6 specialist CB's (Hughes, Evans, Craigan, Duff, McAuley and Cathcart) who play regularly at Championship level or above, who would normally be ahead of him. Plus there are another 3 or 4 who play lower League football, or frequently deputise at CB, who should also be ahead of Duffy. Indeed, CB is normally our strongest position.

Therefore Duffy's elevation is both a reflection of just how many withdrawals we have had, but also how highly NW and SB seem to rate Duffy's potential.

[Gather round]

Well if he really wanted to play for us he would have rejected the call up, so fair play to him if he wants to play for NI and let that be the end of the matter

I'm guessing (as others have said above) that he wants to keep his options open. Which is fair enough- as a teenage footballer his priority is probably to get a long-term contract in professional football. Playing representative football at any level from NI schoolboys up to full international must help with that.

As EG says above, Worthy is using the game in Italy as effectively an U-21. It's risky, but we need the dough. Of course that's a bigger issue and well off-topic :)

Personally I think playing for a youth or U-21 international side after 18th birthday should prevent any player later turning out for another country. But while the rules are more flexible I've no problem with him keeping contact with FAI as well as IFA.

[stiffler]

Its a similar situation to Neil Lennon, international football offer when you are an unknown quantity.

If he becomes a success in his career,he would probably also wish that he had bided his time, and waiting for the call he wanted.

[EalingGreen]

Its a similar situation to Neil Lennon, international football offer when you are an unknown quantity.


Don't wish to be controversial, but it's nothing like Lennon. NL was never offered the opportunity to represent ROI, nor was such a possibility on the table for any NI-born youngsters when he was starting out.

Whereas, Duffy has come into football at a time when that avenue has been opened by the FAI. And as a Derry lad, he has the example of Darron Gibson to emulate (should he choose). Plus his Dad (and Mum?) are from Donegal and he has already been invited to train with one of the FAI under-age squads.

Which is not to say that NL would not have opted for ROI had he been born 20 years later. Then again, the whole atmosphere around playing for NI is markedly different from that which obtained when NL was in the team, which may be one of the reasons why youngsters like Duffy appear increasingly to be sticking with NI (or even returning, like Michael O'Connor and Tony Kane)?


If he becomes a success in his career,he would probably also wish that he had bided his time, and waiting for the call he wanted.That remains to be seen. Partly, of course, it may depend on how the two international teams fare over the next few years, as well as on the personality and experiences of the individual himself.
However, it is not always "clear-cut". I daresay if you had asked eg Gerry Armstrong in 1977 when he was winning his first NI cap, he might have preferred it was for the ROI?
But by the time he won his last cap in 1986, there will have been no doubt whatever where his allegiances lay, allegiances which are now stronger than ever, 23 years later.

[paul_oshea]

Ya in fairness, maybe Duffy is happier with NI, and always will be whether thats in 5 or 10 years. I spose if he is as happy with both at the end of the day it will come down to who has been more successful during his player years.

[co. down green]

Obviously the temptation of a full call up to play against the Italians was too big a prize to turn down for any 17 year old kid, and good luck to the lad, especially as he has so little experience of reserve team football, never mind playing against an Italian side.

It would be interesting to hear what Sean McCaffrey and his team thought about Duffy when he attended an Ireland training camp last June.

I suppose it also dispels the myth that FIFA’s ruling on the eligibility of lads from the North playing for Ireland was going to cause some kind of religious segregation of players, with players from one community opting to play for one team and the others opting to play for the other team (as claimed by Unionist politicians and the IFA at the time).

Players will naturally make decisions based on what they think will help them in their future careers and Duffy has done that, just as his former teammate from Foyle Harps Patrick McEleney has decided to represent Ireland at international level, along with other Derry lads like David McDaid & Seamus sharkey.

It was always about choice and hopefully the hardliners will ‘wind their necks in’ and accept this in the future.

[Predator]

According to an article in the Belfast Telegraph, Duffy could be in line to start against Italy due to Craig Cathcart's withdrawal! For a 17 year old who has never played at senior level (except reserve and 'B' internationals), this is a big, big ask.

And with so many players unavailable Worthington isn’t planning on delving deeper into a limited pool of players for a replacement, leaving him with just four defenders, in the shape of the unattached Chris Casement, Crusaders Colin Coates, Everton teenager Shane Duffy and Manchester City reserve Ryan McGivern - Belfast Telegraph, 'Italians will go with rookies against Northern Ireland' (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/italians-will-go-with-rookies-against-northern-ireland-14319203.html)

Nigel Worthington has also openly stated the reason that he called Duffy up was an attempt to quell any interest from the Republic too. Damn him!!!


When I heard [of the Republic of Ireland's interest] I made sure I brought Shane into our Milk cup squad last summer. I wanted to get to know him, work with him and encourage him...He's a very talented player and I'm delighted to have him in this squad. He is only 17, but he is coming along very nicely at Everton. Daily Mirror, 'Duffy's on board for Nigel' 22.05.09


There are some very good established Italian players in that squad too. It will be interesting to see how the young Derry man will cope.


(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/italians-will-go-with-rookies-against-northern-ireland-14319203.html)

[irishfan86]

He didn't figure in the match against Italy today, so technically he is still eligible for us.

[Gather round]

Slightly surprising, as all the other U-21 guys got on as subs. We'll take the 3-0 beating overall :p

[stiffler]

He didn't figure in the match against Italy today, so technically he is still eligible for us.

He was probably glued to the game in Sofia.

[third policeman]

Slightly surprising, as all the other U-21 guys got on as subs. We'll take the 3-0 beating overall :p


Only saw the last 20 minutes of the game, but I really liked the way NI played. Some good technical players, lots of passing and moving. A better aesthetic spectacle than Sofia, and not a bad result for a team of kids.

[irishfan86]

Only saw the last 20 minutes of the game, but I really liked the way NI played. Some good technical players, lots of passing and moving. A better aesthetic spectacle than Sofia, and not a bad result for a team of kids.

In fairness, it's much easier to play aesthetically in a friendly where the result has already been decided, than it is to play in a crucial world cup qualifier.

[elroy]

Slightly surprising, as all the other U-21 guys got on as subs. We'll take the 3-0 beating overall :p

He doesnt seem to be interested in playing for us so end of as far as Im concerned. I read somewhere that Worthington had an agreement with Lippi that they would only use 6 subs, so the reason why Worthington didnt use the full bench and Duffy.

[Predator]

He doesnt seem to be interested in playing for us so end of as far as Im concerned. I read somewhere that Worthington had an agreement with Lippi that they would only use 6 subs, so the reason why Worthington didnt use the full bench and Duffy.

If he wasn't interested, why would he attend a training camp when invited? The way I see it is that he doesn't seem to have been offered opportunities from the FAI management teams, whereas he has been propelled through the ranks by the IFA management teams. Like I've said before, a career in football is a precarious one and perennially on the edge of doubt, so young footballers have to take their opportunities when they come to them - that appears to be what Duffy is doing. I still hope that he will perhaps be offered the opportunity to play for the Republic, but I won't fault him for his pragmatism; it shows a degree of maturity I believe.

[Stuttgart88]

not a bad result for a team of kids.Funny how some here saw our 1-1 draw in a qualifier there as a bad result and some see a 3-0 defeat there as not a bad result :)

[Predator]

In fairness, it's much easier to play aesthetically in a friendly where the result has already been decided, than it is to play in a crucial world cup qualifier.

Yeah, exactly and even at that, from the minutes I caught after the Ireland game, N.I. weren't exactly playing good football - they were clearly outclassed. The aesthetically pleasing football came from Italy, who seemed to be taking the p1ss at stages. Nevertheless, it seems that 3-0 is a respectable result considering the strength of the team.

Here's an article from the RTÉ website: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/0607/nireland.html


Only Everton's Shane Duffy did not take to the field in the Arena Garibaldi last night due to an agreement Worthington struck with Lippi before the game that only six substitutes would be used.
'I would have liked to have given him a little bit,' admitted Worthington.
'It's unfortunate because he was first class.
'I had a word with him and, even though he did not play, he has had a great season and played with the Under-19s.'


He clearly holds him in high regard

[irishfan86]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that FIFA mandated that only 6 substitutes could be used in a friendly anyways?

This rule came into effect in 2004; has it changed since?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/3509153.stm

[DmanDmythDledge]

I think both teams can use more if they both agree before the game.

[irishfan86]

I think both teams can use more if they both agree before the game.

Then why was this so controversial:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/england/2302419/Fifa-probe-into-England-substitute-farce-in-Trinidad-could-affect-FAs-2018-World-Cup-bid.html

[EalingGreen]

He doesnt seem to be interested in playing for us so end of as far as Im concerned. I read somewhere that Worthington had an agreement with Lippi that they would only use 6 subs, so the reason why Worthington didnt use the full bench and Duffy.
One of our guys who was at the match posted the following on OWC:

"His [Shane's] dad was on our flight home, think he said that Duffy has been called up 'early' at every level in order to get him experience. I don't know how many subs they had agreed to make but if there was a limit then Duffy at 17 was most likely to miss out. He's young enough, hopefully he'll get a cap or two soon enough.

His dad was well impressed by our supporters too!"

[EalingGreen]

Funny how some here saw our 1-1 draw in a qualifier there as a bad result and some see a 3-0 defeat there as not a bad result :)I guess it's all to do with context.

Basically, this was Italy's "B" team versus NI's "C" team - and we have barely a "B" team of our own! Coming into this game, NW might have picked a few reasonably experienced players whom for various reasons, he has overlooked before. Instead he took a gamble on bypassing them and opting to promote our youngsters.

As such, it was (almost literally) men against boys. We had eight of our starting XI making their first starts for NI. And when you count the subs, I think we had the same number winning their first ever cap. Our starting keeper (who had a blinder, btw, inc saving a penalty), was Tuffey, a 22 year old playing in the Scottish 1st Division, who was replaced by Mannus of Linfield with half an hour left.
We had a 28 year old Coleraine player (Carson) and a 22 year old Crues player (Coates) amongs the starters - they had never even been near a cap before now (unless you count Coates being a block booker, who before now went to games as a fan!).
Amongst our subs who came on was a Newcastle Academy youngster (Ferguson) who I don't think has even played for the Toon's Reserves, never mind their first team. Another was teenager James Lawrie, who has made a princely 8 starts for Port Vale.
Starting in midfield was teenager Corry Evans, who has been unused sub for MU on one occasion - the last game of the season against Hull (i.e. before the CL final v Barcelona). He was being marked by Rino Gattuso of Juventus, who has 50-odd Italy caps and a CL winners medal.
Our most experienced starter, Healy, went off injured in the first half, so NW moved Andy Little forward from midfield to replace him; teenager Little has, I think, one senior start for Rangers.

In the end, I was cautiously optimistic that we might avoid a complete drubbing (7 or 8 goals?), but that was only because once they've gone a goal or two ahead, it simply isn't Italy's style in friendlies to "fill their boots". However, I was concerned they might treat it as an exhibition match/training exercise, and start taking the p1ss out of our players.

Instead and to their credit, they took us seriously, not least because several of their fringe players treated it as an opportunity to impress Lippi. This was reflected in the report (in English) in the Gazzetta Dello Sport:
http://english.gazzetta.it/Football/06-06-2009/what-classy-italy-2-50499398726.shtml

Consequently, whilst man-for-man Italy were always vastly superior to us, nonetheless we acquitted ourselves well, I'd say, since we never lost our shape or gave up trying.


P.S. Re the draw in Bari, I didn't see the game, but it seemed a great result to me.

[EalingGreen]

Then why was this so controversial:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/international/england/2302419/Fifa-probe-into-England-substitute-farce-in-Trinidad-could-affect-FAs-2018-World-Cup-bid.htmlI don't think the controversy was over the actual number of subs used; it appears a FIFA dispensation may be available for extra subs and even if it isn't obtained, it merely means the match loses official recognition - hardly the most severe of "punishments"

Rather I think the controversy was that England were only out in T&T for a one-off friendly to suck up to Jack Warner (head of T&T FA) in the quest for votes in their 2018 World Cup bid. (A visit by England is a real money-spinner, not that the receipts always find their way into the coffers of the T&T FA, apparently: http://www.sundayherald.com/sport/shfootball/display.var.1775342.0.warner_asked_me_to_make_a_ch eque_out_to_his_personal_account_i_said_we_dont_do _that.php )

Anyhow, Warner assured England that he had sorted out permission for both teams to use extra subs, but when FIFA heard this, they denied it. Therefore, the "controversy" was actually the embarrassment caused to Warner, not the 7th substitution itself.

[cestlavie]

Players will naturally make decisions based on what they think will help them in their future careers and Duffy has done that, just as his former teammate from Foyle Harps Patrick McEleney has decided to represent Ireland at international level, along with other Derry lads like David McDaid & Seamus sharkey.

It was always about choice and hopefully the hardliners will ‘wind their necks in’ and accept this in the future.[/QUOTE]

Sharkey is not from Derry he is just part of their sqaud. He is from Donegal, he may have been born in Isle of Man. He is not making much progress anyhow.

[Gather round]

Only saw the last 20 minutes of the game, but I really liked the way NI played. Some good technical players, lots of passing and moving. A better aesthetic spectacle than Sofia, and not a bad result for a team of kids

I've seen a couple of our other U-21 games this term. The team looked good both against Germany in the last qualifier (0-3) and in a comfortable win over the Scots. The coach, Beaglehole is doing a good job and getting support from Worthington: he clearly takes the junior sides seriously, whereas Sanchez, McIlroy etc. didn't fully.


Funny how some here saw our 1-1 draw in a qualifier there as a bad result and some see a 3-0 defeat there as not a bad result :)

Possibly because we weren't playing 10 men for 87 minutes? ;)


22 year old Crues player (Coates) amongs the starters - they had never even been near a cap before now (unless you count Coates being a block booker, who before now went to games as a fan!)

At one point BBC commentator Mark Bright suggested that "the Crusaders lad should get tighter to his man". Coates took the advice and with his next touch sent both ball and opponent 30m upfield :)

[Stuttgart88]

Possibly because we weren't playing 10 men for 87 minutes? ;)

So if your young lads had drawn 1-1 against 10 of their young lads would it have been a good or bad result?

I think EG answered my earlier question: of course our 1-1 was a good result but I find it amazing how some amongst us would think it wasn't.

[Gather round]

So if your young lads had drawn 1-1 against 10 of their young lads would it have been a good or bad result?

Bad, I think. 11 men should beat 10- even where an otherwise stronger side- over 90 or even 87 minutes. Not quite their "young lads", actually- Lippi treated it more like a 'B' game, Worthington as an U-21.


I think EG answered my earlier question: of course our 1-1 was a good result but I find it amazing how some amongst us would think it wasn't

It probably won't matter at the end of the group- unless you just miss out on second place or the last runner-up slot in the play-offs. In which case it will look an opportunity wasted?

[stiffler]

[quote=Gather round;1174458]Bad, I think. 11 men should beat 10- even where an otherwise stronger side- over 90 or even 87 minutes. Not quite their "young lads", actually- Lippi treated it more like a 'B' game, Worthington as an U-21.

[quote]


I don't think Worthington treated it as an u21, rather call up any player that made themselves available, pretty much the same as Lippi.

[geysir]

It probably won't matter at the end of the group- unless you just miss out on second place or the last runner-up slot in the play-offs. In which case it will look an opportunity wasted?
That point began to matter as soon as it was achieved.

It mattered to us and to Bulgaria. It will matter to Italy when they play Bulgaria at home.

[Gather round]

I don't think Worthington treated it as an u21, rather call up any player that made themselves available, pretty much the same as Lippi

No, Ivan Sproule (experienced in the Scottish Prem and English D2, plenty of earlier caps) made his availability public, and was ignored. There are various other guys playing in English D3 and D4, or Scottish D2 who could have been called up, all of them playing at a higher level than the Irish League or Newcastle and Everton's youth/ academy teams. It was a deliberate choice, in my opinion unwise, but seems to have worked out reasonably well.


That point began to matter as soon as it was achieved.

It mattered to us and to Bulgaria. It will matter to Italy when they play Bulgaria at home

Fair point. Clearly if you end up winning the group, it will matter enormously. Or if you finish second but with, say, only 15 points and just miss out on the play-offs, ditto.

But if- as I think more likely- you see off both Bulgaria and the worst-placed runner up, then its significance will be less.

[ifk101]

Plenty of lads playing in the LOI that were ignored as well ;)

Regardless of what team NI put out against Italy's "B team", the result would have been the same. A very comfortable Italian victory.

[Gather round]

Plenty of lads playing in the LOI that were ignored as well ;)

Regardless of what team NI put out against Italy's "B team", the result would have been the same. A very comfortable Italian victory

Not necessarily. Remember we've beaten both Spain and England relatively recently, albeit at home. A battling 0-0 draw wouldn't have been entirely implausible with a decent-strength side.

[ifk101]

Not necessarily. Remember we've beaten both Spain and England relatively recently, albeit at home. A battling 0-0 draw wouldn't have been entirely implausible with a decent-strength side.

It invariably ends in a defeat when NI play away. And your deluding yourself if you think NI can be competitive with Italy on their home patch.

[Gather round]

In Euro 2008, we drew away with both Sweden (the top seed) and Denmark, and only lost 1-0 to Spain. While a defeat to Italy would always be likely, it's hardly 100% guaranteed. I have no delusions about our squad's strengths and weaknesses.

[geysir]

Fair point. Clearly if you end up winning the group, it will matter enormously. Or if you finish second but with, say, only 15 points and just miss out on the play-offs, ditto.

But if- as I think more likely- you see off both Bulgaria and the worst-placed runner up, then its significance will be less.
I don't think you get it.
Even if one point does not matter at the end, it does not negate its importance of the way games are played and the pressure in such games in the last phase of the group.
Bulgaria are 2 points behind instead of 1, that reduces their chances by degrees, already they see 2 point gap as a lost cause, but reducing a one point gap was attainable.
Also means Italy will not want to sit back against Bulgaria and hang on like they did against us.

[Gather round]

I don't think you get it

I think I get it. We're talking about different things- you the outcome of the group, me the countback for the play-offs as I think you will comfortably finish second.

[EalingGreen]

I don't think Worthington treated it as an u21, rather call up any player that made themselves available, pretty much the same as Lippi.Disagree on both counts.

Re NI, as Gather Round points out, NW deliberately chose to overlook half a dozen senior players with a better CV than those youngsters whom he did pick, and who would likely have made us stronger.

Re Italy, here is the list of players, with clubs and caps, who played NI:
Gattuso - Milan (66)
Grosso - Lyons (42)
Palombo - Sampdoria (9)
Dossena - Liverpool (8)
Gamberini - Fiorentina (5)
Montolivo - Fiorentina (5)
Rossi - Villareal (4)
Brighi - Roma (4)
Pazzini - Sampdoria (3)
Foggia - Lazio (3)

That's two regulars and 8 fringe players, supplemented by the following 6 debutants:
Marchetti - Cagliari
Santon - Milan
D'Agostino - Udinesi
Mascara - Catania
Pellissier - Chievo
Galloppa - Siena


So whilst clearly an experimental team, the players were hardly mugs.
And aside from one 18 year-old and a 22 year-old, all the rest of the players were 24 or over.
Moreover, Lippi's squad for NI was also his Preliminary Squad for the Confedrations Cup later in the month, so the Italian players will have had every incentive against us.
Consequently, in their match report (which referred to the team as "Italy 2"), the Gazzetta Dello Sport noted:
"An Italy full of new caps beat Northern Ireland 3-0 in a friendly thanks to a very good performance: the best kind of preparation for the Azzurri's adventure in South Africa, as they leave tomorrow evening to play in the Confederations Cup"
and
"Pellissier nearly made it 4-0, but that would even have been too much. Italy 2 won, and convincingly. As the first team hope to do in South Africa from 15 June"

[geysir]

I think I get it. We're talking about different things- you the outcome of the group, me the countback for the play-offs as I think you will comfortably finish second.

Then it would rather be, the vital importance of such a point will have run its course by the time the group ends.

[stiffler]

Disagree on both counts.




Ok- here you go.

Starting line ups where as follows:


Italy: Marchetti, Santon, Gamberini, Legrottaglie, Grosso, D'Agostino, Gattuso, Montolivo, Mascara, Pazzini, Rossi.

Northern Ireland: Tuffey, Johnson, Casement, Coates, McGivern, Little, O'Connor, McCann, Evans, Carson, Healy.


Italy's last competitive line up ( V Ireland) was as follows:



Gianluigi BUFFON (GK)

Gianluca ZAMBROTTA
Fabio GROSSO
Giorgio CHIELLINI
Fabio CANNAVARO (C)
Daniele DE ROSSI
Simone PEPE
Matteo BRIGHI
Gianpaolo PAZZINI
Andrea PIRLO
Vincenzo IAQUINTA
the North's last competitive line up ( V Slovenia) was as follows:


Maik TAYLOR (GK)
Gareth McAULEY
George McCARTNEY
Jonny EVANS
Samuel CLINGAN
Damien JOHNSON
Grant McCANN
David HEALY
Warren FEENEY
Steven DAVIS
Aaron HUGHES


This shows that Italy made more changes to their regular line up that the north. 3 nil was a fair reflection on the different in class between the two teams.

[Gather round]

Stiffler- Northern Ireland played eight U-21 players (plus another on the bench and four other Irish League part-timers); Italy two. Quite clearly Worthington treated it as an U-21 game, Lippi didn't.

[EalingGreen]

Stiffler- Northern Ireland played eight U-21 players (plus another on the bench and four other Irish League part-timers); Italy two. Quite clearly Worthington treated it as an U-21 game, Lippi didn't.Quite correct (imo).

Having been deprived of almost all of his "A" (first team) squad, NW might have looked towards selecting half a dozen what you might call "B" players, whom he normally overlooks for various reasons. These should (in theory) have made for a stronger team that that which eventually played.

Instead, however, he bypassed them and promoted his U-21/youth players.

By contrast, Lippi clearly chose to pick a "B" team, since he declined to pick several senior players who must otherwise have been available, since these latter have now flown out to S.A. for the Confed.Cup. However, it was by no means an U-21 team, either, as you point out.

Basically, I would go by La Gazzetta della Sport, whose match report started:
"PISA, 6 June 2009 - An Italy full of new caps beat Northern Ireland 3-0 in a friendly thanks to a very good performance: the best kind of preparation for the Azzurri's adventure in South Africa, as they leave tomorrow evening to play in the Confederations Cup"
They also nicknamed the team "Italy 2"

Therefore, for a very young NI U-21 team to avoid humilation against a senior Italy B team vindicated the selection policy of NI (imo).

And if the Gazzetta is to be believed, Lippi's selection also served his (rather different) purpose, too.

[Predator]

On the topic of Shane Duffy - here's an article that was in the Donegal Democrat today:

Letterkenny father hopes son Shane will continue to shine (http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalsport/Letterkenny-father-hopes-son-Shane.5357742.jp)

[elroy]

On the topic of Shane Duffy - here's an article that was in the Donegal Democrat today:

Letterkenny father hopes son Shane will continue to shine (http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/donegalsport/Letterkenny-father-hopes-son-Shane.5357742.jp)

A few of the quotes are interesting, while he is obviously very happy to be given the opportunity by NI, there is no ruling out a call up to the FAI or a full time commitment to NI. If the FAI got their act in gear here I reckon he would answer a call up.

[irishfan86]

A few of the quotes are interesting, while he is obviously very happy to be given the opportunity by NI, there is no ruling out a call up to the FAI or a full time commitment to NI. If the FAI got their act in gear here I reckon he would answer a call up.

The question is though, would he be willing to play at U-19 level for the Republic when he could be a squad player for the senior team with the North?

[EalingGreen]

The question is though, would he be willing to play at U-19 level for the Republic when he could be a squad player for the senior team with the North?Do not be deceived by Duffy's Italy call-up, which was entirely exceptional.

As it happens, CB is our strongest position right now. In Hughes, Evans, Duff, McAuley, Craigan, Cathcart, Baird and McLean, we have 8 CB's who are all experienced at EPL/SPL/Championship level, plus a couple more in the English lower Leagues.

Properly speaking, Duffy is an NI U-19, whose potential has caused NW to promote him to U-21 level on occasion, as part of an overall policy of fast-tracking his most promising youngsters. The fact that he has been called into the "B" Squad and Senior squad on one occasion each was an aberration.

By contrast, there are arguably fewer decent quality CB's ahead of him in the Senior ROI squad (not that he's remotely close to playing at that level for either team).

Anyhow, when it comes to "divided loyalties", I'm pleased that NW is treating him well, and that Duffy looks to be the sort to appreciate that and reciprocate. It may mean that he opts permanently for us.

However, if he should eventually throw in his lot with his father's country, then I would wish him well.