CL knock out stage [Archive] - Page 5

irishultra

08/04/2009, 10:48 AM

credit to porto they were fantastic but i wouldn't ever right off a top european side like manchester united even though they were very lucky to even get a result. i still predict a 2-0 win in oporto

tbh porto by and large are average by champions league standards at least on paper, lucho gonzalez is quality and liedson is a very good striker but i would agree compared to other teams in tournament average. its all relative though, hertha berlin or aston villa might be good domestically but on european level they are mediocre teams

shakermaker1982

08/04/2009, 11:11 AM

Porto were a breath of fresh air last night.

Two holding midfielders, sit back and pump long balls? No thanks. Go one nil up at OT and still attack like a rabid dog. Cissokho, Lucho and Ferando stood out for me. Man Utd have a very difficult task on their hands next Wednesday but you can never write them off.

I'll be watching Barca/Munich tonight. Chelsea-Liverpool does not interest me at all (it will probably be 3-3 and the greatest CL game of all time but sod it).

DeLorean

08/04/2009, 11:20 AM

Liverpool presumably are favourites for this tie (couldn't be bothered checkin odds). This will be new for them as the previous 3 knock out meetings with Chelsea it was the opposite. Not sure that it will be a deciding factor but Liverpool do seem to be better when they're not expected to do anything. Think Chelsea will be delighted to get Anfield out of the way in the 1st Leg as long as there's not too much damage done. I'm glad this tie will be decided before United play their return with Porto, if Liverpool are out it will put my mind at rest a bit, petty I know!!

Armando

08/04/2009, 11:55 AM

tbh porto by and large are average by champions league standards at least on paper, lucho gonzalez is quality and liedson is a very good striker

Are you thinking of Lisandro? Liedsons a Sporting player.

irishultra

08/04/2009, 12:52 PM

Are you thinking of Lisandro? Liedsons a Sporting player.

oh **** ye lol i thought thats who lisandro was last night. my bad

FahyForever

08/04/2009, 1:38 PM

Good to hear ye giving Porto their due anyway, those gang of dimwits on the RTE panel restricted themselves to saying United's performance was due to either 'nerves' (Whelan) or 'complacency' (the other two dicks). They all dismissed the possibility of it having anything to do with fatigue after playing two games in three days ('I don't go in for all that' said a clearly well-rested Giles) or Porto playing well. They mention 1 Porto player (Hulk) and even then Giles called him The Hulk. They never managed to give any tactical analysis whatsoever, and showed their total ignorance when Bill asked why Ronaldo was not scoring as many goals as last year (partial answer: he�s playing wide right since Berbs came, as opposed to more off the striker like he often was last year) by blaming Real Madrid interest and a tonne of other nonsense. When Ronnie Whelan is the most accurate analyst in the room, something needs to change! Utterly sick of these guys now, they contradicted themselves so many times I started to think it was Apres Match.

old git

08/04/2009, 9:09 PM

[QUOTE=shakermaker1982;1139875]Porto were a breath of fresh air last night.

Two holding midfielders, sit back and pump long balls? No thanks. Go one nil up at OT and still attack like a rabid dog. Cissokho, Lucho and Ferando stood out for me. Man Utd have a very difficult task on their hands next Wednesday but you can never write them off.

really impressed by porto last night thought they should have scored another and deserverd to get more than a draw.. on utd looked very shaky all over pitch defence woefull / midfield non existant even scholes looked very poor ronaldo a disgrace never bothered once to chase back after losing ball yet again but it seems ferguson lets him away with it so maybee other players trying it on also.. only rooney played with up to scratch utd have been struggling for 4-5 games now and no english club have ever beaten porto at home if porto play same game at home ( hope they dont try & defend) utd will have to improve there game 110 % can see them getting a draw but think they will struggle to win game :ball:

reder

08/04/2009, 9:34 PM

Dont know what to say about that tonight, Barca made Bayern look like a pub team from the highlights but the 3-1 Chelsea win was a massive turn up for the books.

Essien, who is one hell of a player, man marked Gerrard and he couldnt get into the game. Chelsea bossed midfield as a result and could easily have won by more. They had twice as many shots on goal as Liverpool and looked very dangerous every time they pushed forward.

Its gonna take on hell of a performance from Liverpool to get through now. They have to win by 3. Terry out is a plus.

On a side note, Hiddink got it 100% spot on tonight. I hope he leaves Chelsea at the end of the season because I dont fancy anyones chances against them over a complete season if he stays. Abramovich will give him money to spend also, as he seems to like him.

pete

08/04/2009, 10:03 PM

Watched the first half of Barca-Bayern Munich & was men against boys. 65% possession for Barca spent almost entirely in opposition half. Hopefully they can beat Chelsea in the semi final.

Angus

08/04/2009, 10:21 PM

old git

08/04/2009, 11:46 PM

Excellent post and spot on. Zonal marking exploited ruthlessly again and MoTM, our old friend essien - what a player. Having said that, hats off to Torres in the first half, when he was immense, and to the 2 centre halves in the second for keeping him quiet.

torres was excellent first half and work rate was unreal... funny though when things not going so well second half his work rate also disapeared,,, disapointed with his reaction after match when he would not shake hands with ivanovich ... chelsea as a team were brilliant and should have won by more ,, and as already pointed out the so called zonal marking exploited big time .. :mad:

jumping jac

09/04/2009, 7:30 AM

OwlsFan

09/04/2009, 9:08 AM

Didn't see the Liverpool vs Chelsea game but certainly a turn up for the books. No time for Liverpool (or more accurately their manager after the Robbie Keane affair) so not too disappointed by the result. Was it that the menace of Gerrard was snuffed out by Essien?

Came in during a discussion on "zonal marking" and the Laughing Buffoon that is O'Herliny says "Everyone must be a bit confused out there. We'll take a break the experts will explain afterwards". Sigh. Patronising stuff at its best.

old git

09/04/2009, 9:11 AM

I am a Liverpool supporter but honestly was a bit surprised by my own reaction last night. Saturday against Fulham I was so tense and nervous I almost walked away from my TV as I wanted us to win so bad I was getting sick. But last night even at 3-1 down I was cool as could be and thought ah well. I knew all along I wanted us to win the league more than the Champions league, I just didn't realise how much until now.
Rafa needs to go all out on Saturday and even rest players next Tuesday.
The league is all that matters.

amazing now after probally getting knocked out of champions league the preimiership league is now the one to win :mad: i think it is a bigger achievement for a team to win the league over a season but a champions league is also special to.. as a club you try and win as much trophys as possible and dont try and let on as the season unfolds and your team gets knocked out of various micky mouse cup competitions !!! .. suppose f.a. cup / etc dont really count also ... that the league is the one you really wanted ... :p

jumping jac

09/04/2009, 9:17 AM

amazing now after probally getting knocked out of champions league the preimiership league is now the one to win :mad: i think it is a bigger achievement for a team to win the league over a season but a champions league is also special to.. as a club you try and win as much trophys as possible and dont try and let on as the season unfolds and your team gets knocked out of various micky mouse cup competitions !!! .. suppose f.a. cup / etc dont really count also ... that the league is the one you really wanted ... :p
Not at all. I would love us to win the Champs league. My point is that I realised last night that the league is really the one I want. Based upon my own feelings and reaction to what happened in the game. That's all.

DeLorean

09/04/2009, 9:28 AM

amazing now after probally getting knocked out of champions league the preimiership league is now the one to win :mad: i think it is a bigger achievement for a team to win the league over a season but a champions league is also special to.. as a club you try and win as much trophys as possible and dont try and let on as the season unfolds and your team gets knocked out of various micky mouse cup competitions !!! .. suppose f.a. cup / etc dont really count also ... that the league is the one you really wanted ... :p

You might be on to something there!! I'd say something if Liverpool were in a commanding position in the Prem, then maybe they would be better off putting all their efforts into it. The fact is though that they could win all their remaining PL matches and still not win the lge, so I think they should take what they can get. Plus I think getting knocked out (and especially hammered) by Chelsea could do them serious psychological damage for the run in, Fergie was right I think despite Rafa's paranoia.

irishultra

09/04/2009, 10:37 AM

bayern feckin munich. klinsmann needs to go vack to america cause the chap is clueless. bayern had no fight or passion. i turned on the other game and i at least seen the liverpool players busting a gut to get back in to the tie. bayern did nothing even to grab one goal to keep a glimmer of hope alive(remember getafe vs barcelona in the copa del ray)

so yeah very poor but in many ways predictable.

hunt4the

09/04/2009, 12:06 PM

torres was excellent first half and work rate was unreal... funny though when things not going so well second half his work rate also disapeared,,, disapointed with his reaction after match when he would not shake hands with ivanovich ... chelsea as a team were brilliant and should have won by more ,, and as already pointed out the so called zonal marking exploited big time .. :mad:

There was nothing wrong with zonal marking the last three games was there?!? Man U are leaking goals and they're man marking!!...
Stop repeating everything giles and dunphy tell you, they are idiots, nation of sheep is right :(

Chelsea were brilliant last night, they should have scored six and fair play to them, we'll just do it all again next year in the CL semi (yawn)

DeLorean

09/04/2009, 12:46 PM

There was nothing wrong with zonal marking the last three games was there?!? Man U are leaking goals and they're man marking!!...
Stop repeating everything giles and dunphy tell you, they are idiots, nation of sheep is right :(

Chelsea were brilliant last night, they should have scored six and fair play to them, we'll just do it all again next year in the CL semi (yawn)

I've time for Giles. He repeats himself over and over but at least he's consistent. Football doesn't change too much so there's bound to be repetition. Dunphy isn't there for his football expertise in reality. I don't think it's jumping on the bandwagon to reiterate that Chelsea's goals were a result of zonal marking, when it so obviously was in the case of Ivanovic's. I agree though, they should have scored 6.

Shilts

09/04/2009, 1:19 PM

If man for man marking was the way forward (which it's not!) then why wouldn't teams go man for man for the whole game. (That's called GAA by the way!). New methods will always be brought in to try and improve performance and the opposition will then try to outsmart same. That's why we have moved on from the W-M formation a long time ago. Total man for man marking at corners is daft. A mixture of some marking oppositon players and some marking space is the best method. The panel last night seemed to me to be totally out of touch with the modern game. Chelsea exploited Liverpools weakness in implementing the system correctly. But Chelsea have very strong players for set-pieces who would be dangerous against any system.

DeLorean

09/04/2009, 1:34 PM

If man for man marking was the way forward (which it's not!) then why wouldn't teams go man for man for the whole game. (That's called GAA by the way!)

Obviously the whole offside rule sets it apart from GAA in this regard. I'm sure if there was no offside and Drogba was hovering around the goalmouth he would have Skertel or Carragher for company.

Total man for man marking at corners is daft. A mixture of some marking oppositon players and some marking space is the best method

And the most common method I would think. Liverpool seem to take the zonal thing to the extreme though. Surely the big ariel players should be the ones man marked. As you rightly said Chelsea have quite a few, Ivanovic is definitely one.

The panel last night seemed to me to be totally out of touch with the modern game

Maybe but I don't think defending a corner has got any more complicated in more recent times.

Shilts

09/04/2009, 1:57 PM

Obviously the whole offside rule sets it apart from GAA in this regard. I'm sure if there was no offside and Drogba was hovering around the goalmouth he would have Skertel or Carragher for company.

And the most common method I would think. Liverpool seem to take the zonal thing to the extreme though. Surely the big ariel players should be the ones man marked. As you rightly said Chelsea have quite a few, Ivanovic is definitely one.

Maybe but I don't think defending a corner has got any more complicated in more recent times.

1. You agree with me on the 1st point so.

2. If you have a look at the goals again you will see that Ivanovic was man marked by Alonso (1st) and Gerrard (2nd) for the goals. (Badly as it turned out!)

3.Unbelievable!!!
Defending corners HAS become much more difficult in recent times due to (a) more accurate and powerful delivery (b) attacking runs and manoeuvres to lose man markers (c) size and strength of players involved. This is evident in any good junior soccer league. The days of everyone piling into the 6 yard box with a defender on your shouldor and waiting for the corner are gone for years! :ball:

DeLorean

09/04/2009, 2:35 PM

3.Unbelievable!!!
Defending corners HAS become much more difficult in recent times due to (a) more accurate and powerful delivery (b) attacking runs and manoeuvres to lose man markers (c) size and strength of players involved. This is evident in any good junior soccer league. The days of everyone piling into the 6 yard box with a defender on your shouldor and waiting for the corner are gone for years! :ball:

Maybe but the basics would still apply when it comes to defending them.

(a) not sure about that. There are some very good set piece players about but there are plenty of rubbish ones too- Giggs being an example of one of the worst corner takers ever imo.

(b) Couldn't argue too much with this but I'm sure the really good players in the distant past successfully lost their man markers also. Presumably there is a far bigger emphasis on training drills though.

(c) This just means there are bigger players defending the corners too

Shilts

09/04/2009, 3:06 PM

Maybe but the basics would still apply when it comes to defending them.

(a) not sure about that. There are some very good set piece players about but there are plenty of rubbish ones too- Giggs being an example of one of the worst corner takers ever imo.

(b) Couldn't argue too much with this but I'm sure the really good players in the distant past successfully lost their man markers also. Presumably there is a far bigger emphasis on training drills though.

(c) This just means there are bigger players defending the corners too

(a) if you think that the corners are not more powerful or more accurate then in the past then we're watching different sports!

(b) there is a much bigger empasis on team drills now with dummy runs and blocking runs to get attacking teams biggest players 1 on 1 with defending teams smallest payers/weakest headers.

(c) No two teams have the same physical qualities. Teams with smaller players can't go man to man with Chelsea imo, as some chelsea player will probably win every ball in.

Liverpool tried to put their best headers in positions to clear most corners with smaller players in a spoiler role - man to man outside. This didn't work as Ivanovic timed his run for the 1st very well, brushing aside Alonso (marker). For the 2nd which was taken quickly before Liverpool got organised, he easily scored as his marker, Gerrard, misjudged the flight of the ball.

I coach a junior team. We use the zonal and man marking outside. Similar to Liverpool. It works better for us than total man to man. But if you don't want to concede from set pieces imo - don't concede frees or corners :D

DeLorean

09/04/2009, 3:21 PM

(a) if you think that the corners are not more powerful or more accurate then in the past then we're watching different sports!

(b) there is a much bigger empasis on team drills now with dummy runs and blocking runs to get attacking teams biggest players 1 on 1 with defending teams smallest payers/weakest headers.

(c) No two teams have the same physical qualities. Teams with smaller players can't go man to man with Chelsea imo, as some chelsea player will probably win every ball in.

Liverpool tried to put their best headers in positions to clear most corners with smaller players in a spoiler role - man to man outside. This didn't work as Ivanovic timed his run for the 1st very well, brushing aside Alonso (marker). For the 2nd which was taken quickly before Liverpool got organised, he easily scored as his marker, Gerrard, misjudged the flight of the ball.

I coach a junior team. We use the zonal and man marking outside. Similar to Liverpool. It works better for us than total man to man. But if you don't want to concede from set pieces imo - don't concede frees or corners :D

(a) Maybe I'm not old enough:rolleyes:
(b) Yes I am more than willing to concede this
(c) Fair enough as well

I know you were kind of joking but it is shocking how many stupid frees are given away in dangerous areas- Heinze against Liverpool for the goal in the 1st Leg the worst I've seen recently. Corners are tougher to avoid I think.

Shilts

09/04/2009, 3:46 PM

[QUOTE=BarelyLegal;1140788
I know you were kind of joking but it is shocking how many stupid frees are given away in dangerous areas- Heinze against Liverpool for the goal in the 1st Leg the worst I've seen recently. Corners are tougher to avoid I think.[/QUOTE]

Can't agree more. Lazy players (like Heinze) often give away frees or corners rather than defending properly :ball:

old git

09/04/2009, 8:54 PM

There was nothing wrong with zonal marking the last three games was there?!? Man U are leaking goals and they're man marking!!...
Stop repeating everything giles and dunphy tell you, they are idiots, nation of sheep is right :(

Chelsea were brilliant last night, they should have scored six and fair play to them, we'll just do it all again next year in the CL semi (yawn)

man utd are leaking goals correct but how many were conceded off corners due to man marking i may be wrong here none conceded ... liverpool also conceded alot of goals earlier in the season due to so called zonal marking... and their recent run of excellent results may have papered over the cracks :p and will agree with dunphy ^& giles on teams getting built up by press / media trying to make them world beaters after a great run of results

old git

09/04/2009, 9:00 PM

(a) if you think that the corners are not more powerful or more accurate then in the past then we're watching different sports!

(b) there is a much bigger empasis on team drills now with dummy runs and blocking runs to get attacking teams biggest players 1 on 1 with defending teams smallest payers/weakest headers.

(c) No two teams have the same physical qualities. Teams with smaller players can't go man to man with Chelsea imo, as some chelsea player will probably win every ball in.

Liverpool tried to put their best headers in positions to clear most corners with smaller players in a spoiler role - man to man outside. This didn't work as Ivanovic timed his run for the 1st very well, brushing aside Alonso (marker). For the 2nd which was taken quickly before Liverpool got organised, he easily scored as his marker, Gerrard, misjudged the flight of the ball.

I coach a junior team. We use the zonal and man marking outside. Similar to Liverpool. It works better for us than total man to man. But if you don't want to concede from set pieces imo - don't concede frees or corners :D

some fair points but on liverpool last night why was centre half skyrtel not marking player rather than zonal marking an empty space in six yard box surely alsono / gerrard would have been better doing this and let your centrehalf mark a player :ball:

Denis The Red

10/04/2009, 2:10 AM

(it will probably be 3-3 and the greatest CL game of all time but sod it).

Close, and I really enjoyed it. It's why champions league is cream. Sure, you'll get get some tulips but at this stage you get no bad teams, and it should all be enjoyed.
Being a Man U fan and a little disappointed with the result, I still enjoyed the game and appreciated what Porto acheived. I still think we'll get through (unlike the scousers), but to finish there is no tournament like it.

OwlsFan

10/04/2009, 7:33 AM

will agree with dunphy ^& giles on teams getting built up by press / media trying to make them world beaters after a great run of results

Didn't see any evidence of that of the press calling them world beaters. Sky produced facts and figures of goals conceded from corners and I think Liverpool were well down the list.

irishultra

10/04/2009, 11:50 AM

Close, and I really enjoyed it. It's why champions league is cream. Sure, you'll get get some tulips but at this stage you get no bad teams, and it should all be enjoyed.
Being a Man U fan and a little disappointed with the result, I still enjoyed the game and appreciated what Porto acheived. I still think we'll get through (unlike the scousers), but to finish there is no tournament like it.

I dont know Bayern were atrocious. The first half was class seeing Barca on fire even though I wanted the bayern to win CL but as a contest was shocking. It would have been better if first leg was at the Allianz. Tuesday will be awful though. The bayern game could have something about it seeing as they are at home but even then both ties are all but settled.

Stuttgart88

10/04/2009, 1:06 PM

My suspicion is that it's a bit of a bogus debate. I'm not sure anyone can say man for man marking or zonal marking is better - as long as you are well prepared either can work. If Liverpool was a Spanish team the scrutiny in UK & Ireland wouldn't be as great and you'd have just said Chelsea took 2 good set pieces.

Regardless of the system Liverpool's failing was their defenders just not reading the ball and attacking it as well as Ivanovic did. A well timed run coupled with a good delivery can get through any system.

I suspect Liverpool's record against corners may stem from having a keeper who just isn't commanding from that type of situation. His handling is generally good but you rarely see Reina coming throuh players to take anything too far from his line.

Neish

10/04/2009, 5:51 PM

My suspicion is that it's a bit of a bogus debate. I'm not sure anyone can say man for man marking or zonal marking is better - as long as you are well prepared either can work. If Liverpool was a Spanish team the scrutiny in UK & Ireland wouldn't be as great and you'd have just said Chelsea took 2 good set pieces.

IMO Man Marking is far better, zonal marking is ok as long as its not a corner or free kick within shooting distance. Here zonal markers often switch to man marking which only leads to confussion for zonal markers. If I were a manager it would always be man marking

Stuttgart88

10/04/2009, 7:30 PM

Yeah, I've been brought up in a man marking culture and like you if I were a manager that's what I'd do. As a keeper I used to always be shouting at defenders to pick up X and Y player.

I just think that a well executed zonal defence may be better than a poor man for man defence or vice versa, it's the actual quality of defending that counts. Regardless of how you're set up you need your CB or whoever to get his head to the ball first. From an attacking point of view a well timed run, like Henrik Larsson was great at, or even John Terry, can beat either system.

There is of course the old cliche that a zone has never scored a goal, but it's more of a soundbite than anything else.

Stuttgart88

14/04/2009, 7:38 PM

Fascinating game at Chelsea.

Staying on the corner defending theme, Reina has clearly been told to take charge of anything close enough to his goal and has done so pretty well. It makes it so much easier for his defence.

Yet another big game goof up from Cech.

Penalty was spot on. There's jostling and niggling at corners and then there's outright bear hugging and pulling down. Well done ref. Reminiscent of Anders Frisk in Suwon.

NeilMcD

14/04/2009, 7:41 PM

Alonso is running the game just like Essien was running it at Anfield. Is it possible both teams go out tonight. :)

NeilMcD

14/04/2009, 8:26 PM

Whaat a mad match this is.

SkStu

14/04/2009, 8:28 PM

cant wait to watch this later. :eek: :cool:

Stuttgart88

14/04/2009, 8:52 PM

Absolute madness.

Reina's error changed the game but Drogba's faint touch was critical. Lampard's finishing is superb.

They say great managers are lucky. I saw no evidence that anything Hiddink said got Chelsea back into the game - it was Reina's unforced error - yet I'm sure he'll take the plaudits.

Can you imagine what Barcelona vs Chelsea will be like?

Both those keepers have been dodgy in latter stages of the CL. Cech howler & general dodginess tonight and against Liverpool in last year's semi. Reina against Diaby against Arsenal last year and again tonight.

NeilMcD

14/04/2009, 9:10 PM

There is no way or realing anyalying that game as tactics went out the window from an early stage. When you take of Mascherano and Torres acause you think the game is over nd then score 2 more goals to get yourself back in the game, you know its a mad game. I still think that Man Utd will win this tournament.

rambler14

14/04/2009, 9:15 PM

Unbelievable game but if I were Guus Hiddink i'd be absolutely furious with the Chelsea players for their inability to defend. I'd say he's in the dressing room right now telling them what Barca will do to them if they play like that!
7 goals conceded in 2 home games i'd be furious if I were Chelsea manager.

Dunny

14/04/2009, 9:17 PM

Unbelievable game but if I were Guus Hiddink i'd be absolutely furious with the Chelsea players for their inability to defend. I'd say he's in the dressing room right now telling them what Barca will do to them if they play like that!

Is it not the winners of United-Porto go on to face Barca?

NeilMcD

14/04/2009, 9:18 PM

No its not.

Dunny

14/04/2009, 9:21 PM

No its not.

Ah right, cheers.

Dodge

14/04/2009, 9:59 PM

Is it not the winners of United-Porto go on to face Barca?

In the final, yeah...

eamo1

14/04/2009, 11:21 PM

Barca will win this tournament.They will destroy Chelsea.Chelsea will probably do at the Nou Camp what Man Utd did there last year and park the bus for most of the match.
I NEVER seen anything like Drogba tonight,he spent more time on the fu**ing ground then he did standing.He was a disgrace,an embarassment.HE ROLLED BACK ONTO THE PITCH in the first half when he was "injured".Some ppl call that smart play,i call it blatant cheating:mad:.Im not much of a liverpool fan btw,im more of a chelsea hater.

SkStu

15/04/2009, 4:39 AM

in fairness he ran Liverpool ragged while acting the c*nt. Quality player. Much rather play with him than against him alright.

Stuttgart88

15/04/2009, 7:17 AM

Phil Thompson said afterwards on SKY "I knocked my monitor here and Drogba fell over". Top player, total embarrassment to football.

Angus

15/04/2009, 7:31 AM

Phil Thompson said afterwards on SKY "I knocked my monitor here and Drogba fell over". Top player, total embarrassment to football.

Let's save the "total embarassment" tag for the coach who took off the best striker in the world with 12 minutes left. The man is a joker and the fact he gets a free pass from Liverpool fans, generally, is galling.

Let's call a spade a digging implement - he was happy last night when Liverpool went close so he would, once again, get a pass for the pluckiness and spirit and all that stauff - he should be berating those players and they should be berating him. If we had posted yesterday that Liverpool would score 4 times last night and were still 10/1 to go through, we could all have bankrupted Paddy's.

It took him 6 years to figure out Stevie Me is not a midfielder and he takes Torress off when the game was still alive - and that is even before we get into the zonal mindgames - clown.