Another Nordie thread

[elroy]

Anyone see this programme on BBC2 last night, a play featuring Patrick Kielty based around the 1993 game in Windsor Park and USA 94 from a NI protestant prrspective. Never realised the sectarism at that game was so bad and the other events after (killings during the Italian game etc). But one thing that struck me that I never knew was that night in windsor, it seems the Irish national anthem was not played?? What was the reasoning behind that? I know it was different times but surely if GSTQ can be played in croker, why wasnt ANF played in Windsor?

[OwlsFan]

But one thing that struck me that I never knew was that night in windsor, it seems the Irish national anthem was not played?? What was the reasoning behind that? I know it was different times but surely if GSTQ can be played in croker, why wasnt ANF played in Windsor?

Different times for GSTQ at Croker. Back then you already referred to the atrocities which had been carried out around that time and tension was very high. I dont think GSTQ had been played in the earlier game at Lansdowne. Oh the joy of that Alan McLoughlin goal and Billy Bigot getting his come uppance.

[centre mid]

I think the associations had an agreement not to play the others anthem, the same thing happended when we played England in the 92' qualification group at lansdowne. No one had made Charlton aware of this and he stood waiting for the English anthem while everyone else got on with the match. Sad but true.

[paul_oshea]

saw the play, thought it was good, but ask our friends on OWC what they thought, and I think you will get a different view point. It probably was a bit one-sided alright though.

[Gather round]

Anyone see this programme on BBC2 last night, a play featuring Patrick Kielty based around the 1993 game in Windsor Park and USA 94 from a NI protestant prrspective

More like from a 'let's have a superficial dig at NI fans' perspective.


Never realised the sectarism at that game was so bad and the other events after (killings during the Italian game etc)

The play is fictional- the author didn't attend the game. Many fans who DID attend (including some on this forum, and the author's own son) dispute her version of events, whether some songs were actually sung etc. The soundtrack used in the play and PK documentary was not a recording from the match itself.

I wasn't at the game, but I have seen the play (back in the 90s), and watched the documentary the other day.

[gspain]

Away anthems were not played as part of an agreement. Think this has been the case for all games v northern Ireland back to 1978 but could be wrong.

Saw the programme and the play but in 1994 or maybe 1995 - the Dan Gordon version. Was also at the game.

From our perspective the play is fine and actually quite funny. There are the stereotypical drunk Irish fans but they'd probably use this forum against us if we tried taking them to court. :D The NI fans are up in arms over it and rightly so as the chants such as "Greysteel 7 Ireland 0" are made up.

It was a very tense time in NI. I think the previous month was the worst or certainly one of the worst for murders. The IRA blew up satursay afternoon shoppers on the Shankill and LVF (maybe one of the others if there wa s a difference) gunned down people drinking in a bar at Greysteel. We didn't take any away tickets and very few fans travelled. Tickets were still easy enough to get in advance (August) and when 2 mates pulled out they had trouble giving theirs away

It was very calm and relaxed until 5 minutes before kickoff. I had a radio and was chatting with those around me. England had gone a goal down in San Marino after 8 seconds. However it changed when the pubs emptied just before kickoff. There was plenty of sectarian singing/chanting (the Sash, Billy Boys FTP) but from a vocal minority. Alan Kernaghan got dogs abuse and was really despised. always thought that was unfair as NI turned him down.

I celebrated Alan McLoughlin's goal in the home end without any problems having totally lost it when he scored. There was an "Oh sh1t" moment just before I sat down when I realised I was the only one doing so.

There was a huge over-reaction here. I got back to work at lunchtime the following day and my colleagues were saying "Wow he's alive" and they were only half joking. I think the issue was most non football people expected NI to lie down and let us win 3-0 (this included the 2 guys in the back of my car who ended up taking my mates' tickets). I got asked quite a bit why did they want to win so badly when the game didn't matter to them. Lots of "we supported them in 82 & 86." The same stuff the English say about us and the Scots for example.

Lots of othe rmyths sprung up around that night including one about the FAI officials singing songs about the GAA on the flight home (it was actually Irish fans on the flight home from Lithuania the previous June).

[Gather round]

Re Alan Kernaghan- I can't remember exactly the feeling at the time, but I suspect our fans thought the player himself was to blame for his not turning out for us. When in reality it was the IFA's decision (because he was born eleswhere despite growing up in NI).

A fair summary there by GSpain. Are you going to the Lithuania U-21 game? :)

[elroy]

Interesting piece gspain. I think its correct that the author of the play was not at the game but that her sons were and she did travel to New York for the Italy game in USA 94.

A thought occured to me when watching it last night, will the same 'agreement' re the anthems apply when the celtic cup takes place and i presume given the 14 years or so that have now passed that the next meeting of the two sides should prove to be alot more amicable.

[Gather round]

The last meeting (in 1999) was more amicable :)

No idea what they'll do about anthems.

[NeilMcD]

I think the associations had an agreement not to play the others anthem, the same thing happended when we played England in the 92' qualification group at lansdowne. No one had made Charlton aware of this and he stood waiting for the English anthem while everyone else got on with the match. Sad but true.

What is the English anthem.

[gspain]

Re Alan Kernaghan- I can't remember exactly the feeling at the time, but I suspect our fans thought the player himself was to blame for his not turning out for us. When in reality it was the IFA's decision (because he was born eleswhere despite growing up in NI).

A fair summary there by GSpain. Are you going to the Lithuania U-21 game? :)

No not going to Lithuania. Would love to.

Alan Kernaghan's 4 grandparents were from NI. His parents met in England and moved back to Bangor when Alan was 4. He was capped at schools level and wanted to play for NI. At the time the IFA had dispensed with the granny rule. He only approached the FAI after being turned down by the IFA.

He was still seen as a traitor.

[Gather round]

He was still seen as a traitor

Indeed- not our finest hour.

[EalingGreen]

I think the associations had an agreement not to play the others anthem, the same thing happended when we played England in the 92' qualification group at lansdowne.

Don't know about England game, but for ROI v NI it was agreed that only the home team's Anthem would be played at each of these WCQ games.
A precedent for this had been set when the two teams met for the first time ever at Senior level, in ECQ games in Sept.78 (0-0 at Lansdowne) and in Nov.79 (1-0 at Windsor).

[paul_oshea]

Did Fifa approve this with written documentation or was it just a known?

EG, thanks for the score it was very relevant to the overall impact of your last sentence.

[geysir]

Apart from Ernie's fantasy of the Greysteel 7 Ireland nil chant going around the ground, the play was quite accurate.
The play did not claim that the few Republic fans were in any physical danger or that there was any physical violence made against them.
Accounts from Northern Nationalists who attended did comment that the Loyalist fever was boiling hotter than usual that night inside Windsor pk.

[EalingGreen]

Oh the joy of that Alan McLoughlin goal and Billy Bigot getting his come uppance.

If you are referring to Billy Bingham, then you couldn't be more wrong. I think this comes from the oft-repeated myth that Bingham encouraged the fans in singing sectarian songs at this game. Whilst such songs were sung by a section of the crowd at times, I was at the game and can assure you that he did no such thing. During a period of the game when we were in the ascendancy, he stepped to the side of the pitch to roar on both his own players and the fans. However, I am pretty certain we were singing "One Team in Ireland" at the time.
What people overlook is that this was the very last game of Bingham's 40 year career in football, during which he had got over 50 caps as a player and had managed the team over 100 times. As he said himself, we had been embarrassed 3-0 in the first game in Dublin, so he was extra determined to avoid such a fate this time.
Moreover, some people refer to a spat between him and the (let's face it) volatile and emotional Charlton, where Jack refused to shake his hand at the end of the game. However, I've seen it reported that the disagreement had actually arisen from a row between their two assistants (Nicholl and Setters), so that it was all sorted amicably afterwards, but away from the public gaze, in the Boardroom at Windsor (I think I'm right in saying Big Jack made the presentation to Billy, marking his final game in charge?)

Anyhow, those who castigate Bingham for his supposed "bigotry" can never explain something about the man to me.
Essentially, Bingham's genius as a manager was his ability to get 100% from his players, so that they consistently punched above their weight. Indeed, team spirit and morale was often what made the difference for us between victory and defeat. Yet his teams were also entirely mixed, sometimes even having more Catholics than Protestants, with stalwarts like Jennings, Donaghy, O'Neill, and Armstrong etc gaining hundreds of caps between them. His "main man" and Captain during the Glory Years was Martin O'Neill - hardly your average "Uncle Tom"! Moreover, Bingham managed the team during some of the worst years of the Troubles, when tensions were extremely high.
Indeed, the scorer of the NI goal that night was (Catholic) Jimmy Quinn, who celebrated the goal as joyously as any home fan. Yet although I can't find the exact source just now, I remember reading an interview with Quinn where he recounted that despite his family having been forced to move out of their home in (Protestant) Rathcoole when he was a lad, eventually moving to England, he was always immensely proud to come back years later and represent "his country".
Does anyone seriously consider that any manager could have engendered such an obviously "together" team spirit if he were also a bigot?

And by the way, Protestant bigots don't tend to extend the honour of being Best Man at their wedding to GAA-playing Catholics from Beechmount, either. But I've no doubt his very good friend, Gerry Armstrong, was delighted to accept...:rolleyes:

P.S. I appreciate the danger that such my post is liable to drag what is already a potentially controversial thread down an alley which the Mods won't like. But Bingham is one of my footballing heroes and I absolutely detest it when people gratuitously libel the great man entirely without justification.

[EalingGreen]

Did Fifa approve this with written documentation or was it just a known?

Since it is (now, at least) a mandatory requirement by FIFA for both Anthems to be played before competitive games, I imagine the two Associations got a dispensation.

EG, thanks for the score it was very relevant to the overall impact of your last sentence.
All part of the service. ;)

[Wolfie]

Don't know about England game, but for ROI v NI it was agreed that only the home team's Anthem would be played at each of these WCQ games.
A precedent for this had been set when the two teams met for the first time ever at Senior level, in ECQ games in Sept.78 (0-0 at Lansdowne) and in Nov.79 (1-0 at Windsor).

Was this agreement also employed for the ROI 3 - NI 0 game?

How about the NI 0 - ROI 4 game?

[Gather round]

Was this agreement also employed for the ROI 3 - NI 0 game?

How about the NI 0 - ROI 4 game?

Or the most recent (RoI 0-1 NI) game?

[Wolfie]

Or the most recent (RoI 0-1 NI) game?

Oh yeah - forgot about that insignificant friendly as opposed to the drubbings we handed out in actual qualifiers ;) :cool:

[gspain]

BTW For the England games in 1990 and 1991 the English FA denied there was any such agreement and said they were expecting GSTQ to be played. AnabF was played at Wembley. GSTQ was played at the 1995 friendly.

[Gather round]

Sorry mate. I was only a kid 20 years ago, I'm a bit vague about the details ;)

[EalingGreen]

Interesting piece gspain. I think its correct that the author of the play was not at the game but that her sons were and she did travel to New York for the Italy game in USA 94.

It is absolutely certain that Jones was NOT at the 1993 game herself. In fact, she has been widely reported as admitting that she had no interest in football at that time, but had been prompted to pursue the idea for a play after reading newspaper reports of the match in the days following. This was also what prompted her to travel to USA94 i.e. research.
Interestingly, here is a post which someone purporting to be her son put up recently on OWC:
"I've never liked the play or remotely agreed with it's sentiments as she well knows from many arguments.
As far as I know any research was done from press and one trip to USA '94, which I can assure you I had no part of. At the end of the day it's a work of fiction and should be left at that. We know what it was like back then and we know what it's like now. If people chose not to recognise that then that's their issue. I loved Windsor then as I love it now, it's just somewhere I'd be proud to take my children to now"
There is no reason to believe that he is not who he says he is. It is notable however (imo), that her son is a long-time NI fan, including being at the 1993 game.
Eventually he (and his brother?) persuaded her to attend an NI game to see for herself. Subsequently, she has become a "fan", even having been seen at away games.
Which must indicate either that she is no longer bothered by the overtly sectarian behaviour which she deplored so readily in 1993, or that such behaviour is no longer a part of following NI.

A thought occured to me when watching it last night, will the same 'agreement' re the anthems apply when the celtic cup takes place and i presume given the 14 years or so that have now passed that the next meeting of the two sides should prove to be alot more amicable.
I'd love for things to be amicable enough by then for both anthems to be played and respected by all (though I'm not entirely hopeful, tbh).
I'd love even more if before then, NI had adopted an anthem of its own to replace GSTQ, as Scotland and Wales have done. This is something worth doing for its own sake (imo), but it would also have the added bonus of avoiding controversy in games between NI and ROI (and Wales and Scotland, for that matter).

[EalingGreen]

Was this agreement also employed for the ROI 3 - NI 0 game?

How about the NI 0 - ROI 4 game?

Touche. ;)

By the way, I wasn't there the last time the two teams met. Any idea what happened then? About the anthems*, I mean.

* - I suspect we both know the score in that one...;)

[EalingGreen]

Oh yeah - forgot about that insignificant friendly as opposed to the drubbings we handed out in actual qualifiers ;) :cool:
To paraphrase Billy McNeill, NI don't play "friendlies"...:)

[Wolfie]

To paraphrase Billy McNeill, NI don't play "friendlies"...:)

Somantics, EG. Win when it matters.

[Gather round]

Wasn't it Jock Stein who said that?

Dinnae play friendlies, I mean.

[Wolfie]

I'd love for things to be amicable enough by then for both anthems to be played and respected by all (though I'm not entirely hopeful, tbh).
I'd love even more if before then, NI had adopted an anthem of its own to replace GSTQ, as Scotland and Wales have done. This is something worth doing for its own sake (imo), but it would also have the added bonus of avoiding controversy in games between NI and ROI (and Wales and Scotland, for that matter).

Well, there's an Ireland v N.Ireland game sorted for Spring of 2011 in Dublin.

Any suggestions for a new NI anthem in time for that game?

[Gather round]

Danny Boy? OK, I think it's a dirge, but maybe a bit less so than some?

On the other hand, we could have a militaristic one like you do.

[kingdomkerry]

I remember this one well. I actually supported NI in all games prior to this. That was before i was old enough to understand why Ireland was divided and before I found out what sectarianism was. If anyone does'nt know I suggest they get the video!

Anyone got a link for the play?

[Wolfie]

Danny Boy? OK, I think it's a dirge, but maybe a bit less so than some?

On the other hand, we could have a militaristic one like you do.

"Things can only get better" - D-REAM ?

I always liked the ad on UTV for "Tile Market". :)

WERE

TILE

MARKET!!!

[geysir]

Marie Jones did her research with people who attended the game as well as newsp reports.
She has stated that a few times.

As I wrote, the play captures many situations quite accurately except for the dramatic Greystel 7 Ireland O chant.
Windsor pk was regarded by Nationalists as being a loyalist cesspit long before that game and for some years after that game.

The person who is claiming to be her son, appears to somewhat prejudiced himself, EG did not quote his reference to
'I would rather stab myself with a fork than watch the beggars'.
:D

[Gather round]

Did he (MJ's son) have special goggles that blanked out 11 of the 22 players, or what?

Geysir and Kingdom: Marie Jones's 'research' was superficial. She read the newspapers, spoke to a few people then wrote a polemic which distorted the main event on which the play is based. If you want to parrot cliches about loyalist cesspits and the like, we'll get little further than the thread locked. Plenty of nationalists supported NI in the 70s and 80s (arguably more than now), despite the violence being at a significantly higher level than in the mid-90s.

Wolfie: things might get worse. I mean, San marino have to win a game eventually...

[kingdomkerry]

Danny Boy? OK, I think it's a dirge, but maybe a bit less so than some?

On the other hand, we could have a militaristic one like you do.

What line in the anthem do you think is militaristic?

[Drumcondra 69er]

Danny Boy? OK, I think it's a dirge, but maybe a bit less so than some?

On the other hand, we could have a militaristic one like you do.

A militirastic national anthem??? My God, how rare is that??? :eek:

[paul_oshea]

Was this agreement also employed for the ROI 3 - NI 0 game?

How about the NI 0 - ROI 4 game?

haha very good wolfie :D

i should remove my comment to make it even wittier :D

[paul_oshea]

"Things can only get better" - D-REAM ?

I always liked the ad on UTV for "Tile Market". :)

WERE

TILE

MARKET!!!

thats the best post ive ever read on here, definitely one of the most intelligent as well :D

We're tile market!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wasn't sure if they were actually saying "we're" for a long time....

[paul_oshea]

KK leave out the talk of that, we have had it before.

This thread is great, thats another great response GR, maybe he suffers from a rare form of dyslexia where he only reads and understands 11 in a certain shade of green?

[Hibernian]

Was Republic anthem played when they stuffed the North 4-0 at windsor park.

And I mean stuffed them.... oooo ya

Great night that they were quite boys after that one...

Sorry about getting under the nose had to let it get out of system :)

[Wolfie]

The threads featuring the OWC lads always start out as entertaining until we all plummet down the sink hole of the finer details of FIFA's current eligibility rules or the sub-clauses of the Good Friday Agreement.

Once they crop up it only serves to remind me that what we need is an actual match between Ireland V N.Ireland. No messin. Winner takes all - including bragging rights. Roll on Spring 2011.

[Gather round]

What line in the anthem do you think is militaristic?

'Soldiers' song' is something of a giveaway, like.

As D9 69 suggests, anthems tend to be thus. Close to home Britain/ England's and Scotland's explicitly mention battles against each other. I'm no fan of any of them, but you can't have it both ways. As I've said before on related threads, we could do worse than choose a more contemporary punk rant like Alternative Ulster or Gloria (Them not U2).


The threads featuring the OWC lads always start out as entertaining until we all plummet down the sink hole of the finer details of FIFA's current eligibility rules or the sub-clauses of the Good Friday Agreement

Sorry if it doesn't entertain you as far as page three. And to be so po-faced, but you should realise it ****es us off from post one. Just like every other thread/ play/ other medium that effectively says 'you're all bigots/ useless at football, why not give up your team and support ours instead'?


Once they crop up it only serves to remind me that what we need is an actual match between Ireland V N.Ireland. No messin. Winner takes all - including bragging rights. Roll on Spring 2011

That's better. Just don't forget the notional possibility of a(nother) night in November (2009), or in South Africa itself?

[paul_oshea]

The threads featuring the OWC lads always start out as entertaining until we all plummet down the sink hole of the finer details of FIFA's current eligibility rules or the sub-clauses of the Good Friday Agreement.

Once they crop up it only serves to remind me that what we need is an actual match between Ireland V N.Ireland. No messin. Winner takes all - including bragging rights. Roll on Spring 2011.

Wolfie did you mean this when you said takes all?

[Wolfie]

'Soldiers' song' is something of a giveaway, like.
Sorry if it doesn't entertain you as far as page three. And to be so po-faced, but you should realise it ****es us off from post one. Just like every other thread/ play/ other medium that effectively says 'you're all bigots/ useless at football, why not give up your team and support ours instead'?

That's better. Just don't forget the notional possibility of a(nother) night in November (2009), or in South Africa itself?

Apology accepted.

We've no fixture planned against NI in 2009. Do you mean the notional possibility of meeting in November 2010 in the Euro Qualifiers?

That's a nice gesture for NI fans to travel to South Africa to cheer us on. Fair play.

Paul - that was just a turn of phrase. No deeper meaning or anything.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Apology accepted.

We've no fixture planned against NI in 2009. Do you mean the notional possibility of meeting in November 2010 in the Euro Qualifiers?

That's a nice gesture for NI fans to travel to South Africa to cheer us on. Fair play.

Paul - that was just a turn of phrase. No deeper meaning or anything.

Possible World Cup play off obviously.

Back of the class facing the wall Wolfie! (Unless of course you were deliberately discounting any chance of them making it to garner a response!)

[Wolfie]

Possible World Cup play off obviously.

Back of the class facing the wall Wolfie! (Unless of course you were deliberately discounting any chance of them making it to garner a response!)

Have to be honest - never considered the possibility of a World Cup Play Off!!

Jaysus - it would be some craic on here if that transpired.

[Gather round]

I'd say we have a 25% chance of finishing in the top two, then say 35% of winning a play off. So roughly 9% overall or 10/1 as the bookies say. You can only dream...

Group 3 top two :

Czechia 70% likely
Poland 55%
Slovakia 30%
NI 25%
Slovenia 20%
San Marino tending to 0%

[paul_oshea]

I would put that at more like 11.4% to be honest, however I am no actuary! :D

[Gather round]

Paul- 25% x 35% is 8.75%. Trust me (I'm not an actuary either, although I did apply for a job as one when at TCD).

[Wolfie]

I'd say we have a 25% chance of finishing in the top two, then say 35% of winning a play off. So roughly 9% overall or 10/1 as the bookies say. You can only dream...

Group 3 top two :

Czechia 70% likely
Poland 55%
Slovakia 30%
NI 25%
Slovenia 20%
San Marino tending to 0%

Now, of course if both Irelands were to hypothetically joins forces if you will..................

Easy Tiger!! - Just messin about :D

[Gather round]

On that bombshell, this tiger is slinking back into the undergrowth. Leaving you as king of the jungle, Wolfie :D