Another Nordie thread

[EalingGreen]

Actually I get my info from a journo friend who is a die hard NI fan who goes to Windsor and all the away trips. I actually touched base with him earlier and ran passed him some of the sentiments expressed by yourself and others about the extent of the improvement and the level of cross community support for NI. His assessment (and he is a Protestant if that has any relevance).

No offence, tp, but of all people, a Reporter should know the dangers of "hearsay"! ;) Why not get him to post on here, so we can all benefit from his experience and opinions?


"Things have improved at Windsor over recent years.
Indeed.


There is still an element who indulge in sectarian chanting, but to be fair they are often booed down by other fans.
I'm sorry, but I cannot recall the last time there was "sectarian chanting", or cause for the rest of the crowd to suppress it. In fact, unless he may be referring to the occasional isolated idiot/drunk, I'm astonished by that claim.
The only thing I can think of is a single, vestigial "No Surrender" during GSTQ, by an entrenched minority, which is just about impossible to damp down. (Think of it like when certain idiots like to "adorn" the Fields of Athenry with "Up the Ra", for instance).
Anyhow, as I said, I'd like to hear it directly from your friend.


I dont think mant Catholics go to watch games at Windsor. It's partly because of the history of the place."

Indeed. And I imagine the "history" is only one reason. The fact that many have long since switched to the ROI is another. Plus it seems that some people who are interested in "returning to the fold" are deterred from doing so, or at least keep it under their hat, because they live in hard line Republican areas.
And our long barren spell caused support and interest to dissipate, along with the decrepit state of the ground. And more latterly, the Block Booking/Waiting List system means tickets are scarcer than hens' teeth for most matches.
Then again, these last three factors also led to a drop off in support amongst Protestant supporters for a long time.


"On the away trips I would say the support is 100% Protestant. There is more blatent sectarianism amongst the fans and a lot of abuse directed at 'the beggars' (RoI supporters). I wouldn't say that Catholic supporters would find it a very welcoming atmosphere."

There may be fewer Catholics as a percentage at away games, but it is simply wrong to claim it to be 100% prod. For example, in Riga I roomed with a Catholic from Belfast (lives in London now) and his Manchester mate who, although English, has a strongly Catholic/Irish name (I didn't ask). Another Catholic from Magherafelt was in our club group. And I bumped into the first couple in Bratislava and know of some more who were there. (Oh, and every time I travel, I often end up drinking with a guy from Co. Antrim who is Jewish!).
But I would accept that there is a scuzzy element, invariably travelling independently (i.e. not with organised supporters club trips), who come on to certain "stag-type" destinations (e.g. Prague or Riga), though not to the other, less "exotic" or further, more expensive trips.
And whilst they're out on the p1ss, they sometimes revert to type. That said, it is always possible to avoid them, simply by moving to another bar, which regular fans invariably do.


Sounds to me that there is still a way to go.
Agreed, but I have no doubt that we have come sufficiently far that no-one need feel intimidated or deterred from joining the Green and White Army merely on account of their religious or political background.
After all, Marie Jones (remember her?) has been sufficiently persuaded to have become a "convert", now travelling with her family to NI games home and away...


I am also confused by your willingness to tolerate Northerners supporting the RoI, so long as they dont want to play for it (Darren Gibson).
It's quite simple, really.
Over on OWC, there is an interesting thread about the increasing number of English, Germans, Austrians, Czechs etc who are now members of the GAWA. They usually have no family connection etc with NI, but join in because they enjoy the whole experience. I'm sure it is the same with the Boys in Green.
Which essentially reflects the fact that you can support whichever team you like, even a National team. That is, it is am matter of choice.

Whereas, who you play for is most definitely NOT a matter of choice. After all, no-one can "choose" where he, or his parents/grandparents are born, and these are the basic criteria for determining which country you play for.

And although I am forced to accept that FIFA do not apply their Rules in the Irish situation in accordance with the above general principles, I still believe that there being two teams in Ireland, if you (or your parents/grandparents) are born within the territory/jurisdiction of one Association, you should represent that Association, but if you are born within the territory/jurisdiction of the other, then you should represent the other Association.

Of course, I don't expect you to agree, or even like, that stance, but I would hope you can accept that it is consistent, even principled.

Anyhow, I really don't want to go any further down that particular avenue; if nothing else, Geysir might start feeling "severely provoked"! :eek:

[EalingGreen]

PS EG

Cant make it this Wednesday, but if you are serious I will come to an NI game at some point in this campaign.

I was entirely serious, and would be happy to accompany you at the next home game I attend.

Btw, any chance you could get me a ticket, too? San Marino is one thing, but I often have difficulty getting a single ticket for myself for the more popular games!

[bennocelt]

By the way wasn't there some controversy this summer with a team from Dublin playing up North, in a youths cup?
I actually just got the tail end of that story, can someone enlighten me?

About poaching! Thats rubbish, you can be Irish and living in Norn Ireland and want to play for your country - Ireland (the rep version!). Amazing, I know, for some to imagine this but thats what some want to do now - which is their right

[theworm2345]

This show is available through UKNova or TheBox.bz

I just scanned the video...do they not even show the freakin goal? :confused::mad::rolleyes:

[Gather round]

Morning all.

Ealing Green and G Spain have already covered most of what I would have said.

One area where I differ from EG, as other readers of similar threads here will know, is on NI schoolboy and youth players declaring for RoI. If they want to play for you rather than us, and haven't played for our U-19 or U-21 sides after age 18, then fine.

Lopez: look forward to some er, raciones and 'delusion' banter at a game next year, maybe. You got any trips to Croke planned?

I was quite pleased you qualified in 1994 (even immediately after the game; I was content with a draw). Didn't support ye in 2002, I'll admit. But I'm more or less over it now. I generally support the underdog in matches not involving NI, so count me in against Italy, and maybe Bulgaria and any notional play off.

Or Cyprus if ye ever get round to playing the whole island ;)

[third policeman]

It's quite simple, really.
Over on OWC, there is an interesting thread about the increasing number of English, Germans, Austrians, Czechs etc who are now members of the GAWA. They usually have no family connection etc with NI, but join in because they enjoy the whole experience. I'm sure it is the same with the Boys in Green.
Which essentially reflects the fact that you can support whichever team you like, even a National team. That is, it is am matter of choice.

Whereas, who you play for is most definitely NOT a matter of choice. After all, no-one can "choose" where he, or his parents/grandparents are born, and these are the basic criteria for determining which country you play for.

And although I am forced to accept that FIFA do not apply their Rules in the Irish situation in accordance with the above general principles, I still believe that there being two teams in Ireland, if you (or your parents/grandparents) are born within the territory/jurisdiction of one Association, you should represent that Association, but if you are born within the territory/jurisdiction of the other, then you should represent the other Association.

Of course, I don't expect you to agree, or even like, that stance, but I would hope you can accept that it is consistent, even principled.




EG I love you to bits, but if I didn't know better I'd think you were educated by THe Jesuists. Are you seriously suggesting that there is a parallel between Czechs supporting NI and NI Catholics supporting RoI. If the Czech FA were facing a situation were maybe 40% of its population were supporting another nation, and some of their promising players were electing to play for that nation, I dont think they would be quite as relaxed about it as you are.

Your account of the Shamrocks v Brazil game (and its baroque conspiracy theories) is strangely at odds with the well documented version related by NI legend Derek Dougan. I dont believe that there is any evidence that this game was a cunning plot to undermine the IFA, the existence of the NI team and probably the very union itself. This is a piece of quaint mythology and quite probably the product of Unionist paranoia. You are categorically wrong when you state that there was little interest amongst NI fans in the match. There was a great deal of excitement amongst my NI supporting relatives in Derry and Newry and several uncles and cousins came down for the match. But maybe they dont count as real NI supporters? Well dont worry they got the message, like nearly all Catholics in Northern Ireland that I know they now follow RoI.

This is the nub of the problem. Most NI supporters dont really mind if nearly half the population support another team. Having too many of them around at games might spoil the fun. We would have to make too many changes to make them feel comfortable. What's wrong with GTSQ? It's our anthem isn't it, and what's wrong the flag and the odd bit of banter? Sure if they dont like it they can always follow "their" team.

It's all well and good pointing at a few Catholics who do follow NI and then suggest that proves that everything must be OK. Whichever way you look at it your support is massively unbalanced and you should think a lit bit harder and be more open to imaginative ideas if you really want to change that situation.

In the meantime I will defo go to Windsor with you for an up coming game. I have a client who seems to have sources in the IFA. He offered me tickets for a game last year, so I'll see what he can do with a bit of notice.

[ifk101]

Before the game, there was only one manager who was raising the atmosphere further, by
1. Trying to get the game moved to the Continent, when FIFA saw no need to do so;
2. Trying to avoid arriving in the home country at least 24 hours prior to kick-off, as demanded by FIFA;
3. Playing Rebel songs on the team bus to "gee up" his players;
4. Publicly refusing to shake the hand of the home manager after the game, despite it being offered in good faith and his (ROI) team having got the point they needed.
Both as a player and as a manager, Jack "Little Black Book" Charlton had a long history of getting involved in aggressive, even violent confrontation, with players, managers, media etc, including when he was manager of ROI. By contrast, Billy Bingham's record in this respect was impeccable.

Just out of interest EG, but were there any other sporting events that were cancelled and/ or move at the time of this international? If so, did Charlton not have justification for seeking the match to be moved?

Also was Charlton's decision not to shake Bingham's hand after the game linked to pre-match comments made by Bingham? Yes Charlton is hot-tempered but why was he so in this instance with a man of impeccable respect?

And what "rebel songs" were played on the bus? And why would "rebel songs" be used to gee up players that were not of "Irish extraction"?

[paul_oshea]

EG, I didnt fully understand when you said "SS" would not be would acceptable for NI fans, isn't the whole idea compromise, rather than "our" team and "we", this is what I was refering to initially when GR responded to my quesiton, I am not sure he fully understood what I meant, or the confusion I had. If GTSQ is acceptable for 50%, and SS is acceptable for another say 50%, then why cant both be played, even if you say its not and you want it changed, its currently being played, so why not appease those that you say you want to include in "your" support and play SS. The point I am trying to make is not about anthems etc, more that surely to include everyone, you need to make compromises, not base it on compromises that suit one side, as that isn't a compromise, If when you say "we" you mean the inclusive "we" rather than the "royal"(:))"we" then surely as TP pointed out, the situation and balance needs to change?

[lopez]

Bully for You.
Yes indeed. Remember that when you are wetting yourself with anticipation that Cyprus might have beaten us.

I see. So the visiting manager attempts to get the game switched elsewhere, and to avoid the normal protocol about overnight stay etc, despite being so directed by a neutral body, FIFA, and that does not risk inflaming an already heightened atmosphere? That's OK, then.
It is more than 'OK' if there is a good chance that the trick or treat boys might pay him a visit. Overnight stay? You being serious here?

During a period in the 1970's, it was decided by the Police that it would not be wise to conduct international football matches in Belfast. One of the chief, if not the chief, reasons was that such games risked being attacked by the IRA etc, as indeed happened on at least one occasion subsequently. The IFA acceded to such a demand, without it compromising their relationship with the opposing teams.
Are you suggesting that only actions by the IRA are worthy of being taken into account? No international games were attacked by the IRA until 1987. No teams would have been attacked by the IRA with the exception of England (not even Scotland seeing that in 30 years the IRA never paid Scotland or Wales a visit). England had legitimate reasons for not going in 1973. No one else had those reasons. I personally don't think that what the police said mattered. The rugby unions of Scotland and Wales refused to come to Dublin despite assurances. They would have refused to come to Belfast too.


And when, from 1975, it was increasingly deemed safe to return to Belfast, our opponents happily acceded.
B*llocks did they. Scotland refused to visit until 1980, which suggests they had the pleasure of two games at home advantage from 1975 to 1979. Why was this? Did the police believe that it was unsafe for Scotland to come, a country that the IRA never once touched.

Which brings me to the point of this 'neighbourly' rivalry that is such a feature of OWM. Even you admit that you supported them at the 1990 World Cup yet they pulled the 'we ain't gonna play Belfast city' card not once, not twice, not three times, but four times.


This is in no way similar to the situation in 1993, when the Police, IFA and FIFA judged that the game could go ahead safely, ultimately being vindicated by events, but the visiting team tried to reject their judgement, essentially in order to gain an advantage over the other teams in their Group. You can call that "gamesmanship", I prefer a different term.
What term would you prefer to call it?


(Oh and if ever NI are in such a situation, we shall see what they do and you may see my reaction. In the meantime, though...)
Judging by what the IFA does with regards to the recruiting of players, I'd guess it would be a hypocritical response. And I'd say you'd find some sort of excuse to support them.


The point was that certain other posters alleged that the NI team cannot appeal to both communities in NI. I merely pointed out from my own personal experience, that not only can it do so, but it actually does.

Moreover, as the message gets out about the reality of the experience, rather than the myth and the propaganda, that appeal is increasing.Stop press. Some catholics support NI. What's the next exclusive? Some Catholics are unionists? :rolleyes:

[lopez]

...
Lopez: look forward to some er, raciones and 'delusion' banter at a game next year, maybe. You got any trips to Croke planned? ...I'm going to try to get at least one match at Croker before Lansdowne Road is completed, but I'm not sure when.

[geysir]

One example? On this thread you have described my posts as "blinkered, immature crap"

Yet another example of you not quoting properly or comprehending what I write.
Did I not write specifically about your argument,
"The old, what about Charlton argument. What a load of blinkered immature tosh"
Tosh = baloney, a word used to describe your argument. Tosh is a mild word and nowhere near the definition of cráp. What type of poster would lower their debating standards (maybe even purposely) to misquote another poster in order to crudely bolster up a baseless accusation?

[EalingGreen]

Thanks to Nigel Worthington and Howard Wells for sorting that issue with FIFA for us and great to see new young lads from the North like Patrick McAleney, David McDaid and Seamus Sharkey all playing for Ireland at u19 level in recent months.

NI-born players have been opting for ROI for some time now, esp at lower age groups, so this is nothing new.
I take more comfort from the example of Tony Kane and Michael O'Connor (players more advanced in their careers, btw), who have come back into the fold.

Perhaps you should have a word with your boss Nigel Worthington about "poaching".

Northern Ireland boss Nigel Worthington is hoping to swipe the services of Hull City striker Caleb Folan from under the noses of the Republic of Ireland.

Leeds-born Folan qualifies for Ireland through the grandparents ruling and has so far given his allegiance to Giovanni Trapattoni.

Folan has revealed he was forced to change his mobile phone number after pressure to play for Northern Ireland.

“Nigel rang me and I told him I wanted to play for the Republic,” said Folan.

Worthington said “ I spoke to Caleb to check out his eligibility and see where his loyalties lie, he was adamant that he wanted to stay with the Republic, but I told him if he changed his mind, he should call me. The ball is in Caleb’s court”

And then there was Leon Best (http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_3135052,00.html) and the fiasco of the North naming Alex Bruce (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n16186537) for a NI U21 game even though he never declared his willingness to play for your team.
The likes of Folan, Best and Bruce are different from e.g. Gibson in two crucial respects.
First, Gibson learned his football in NI and was a product of our youth system etc.
Second, his recruitment followed the unilateral tearing up by the FAI of the Gentleman's Agreement between the FAI and IFA whereby neither would select players from each other's territory.
Neither applies to Folan, Best and Bruce who, having been born and developed outside of Ireland, are "fair game" for ROI, NI, Scotland or anyone else to try to attract.
Of course, the country of their birth (England) might consider that these players are being "poached" from them, except that such matters are subject to a voluntary agreement between the four 'home' countries, an agreement which is observed to the letter and the spirit by all four.
P.S. I don't know the exact ancestry of either Folan or Best, but Bruce "qualified" via a granny from Bangor, Co.Down. Which I guess you know is in NI...
Curiously, you omit to mention that he expressed no affiliation with either team, opting for ROI solely because he felt "they were a better team"! Oh how we laughed, as the ROI stumbled from embarrassment to crisis under Father Dougal Staunton...
Anyhow, it certainly helped his chances of gaining international caps, since NI have at least 6 Centre Backs* who are ahead of him in the queue!


* - Before you ask, Hughes, Evans, Craigan, Baird, McAuley and Duff. And Craig Cathcart will likely overtake him before long, plus George McCartney can easily fill in at CB if we're short, so that would make him our 9th choice...

[EalingGreen]

,

Not sure if the players from the North were influenced or delighted by their participation in the game back in 1973, but all have since declared their support for an all Ireland team – Martin O’Neill (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7324995.stm), Brian Hamilton (http://breaking.tcm.ie/sport/mhojgbeymhkf/), Derek Dougan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Dougan) & Pat Jennings (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7324995.stm). And not forgetting George Best’s (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/4374631.stm) support for an all Ireland team.

Wishful thinking on your part. O'Neill and Jennings, interviewed after a commemorative dinner in Dublin, when they weren't going to want to say anything too controversial to embarrass their hosts, merely opined that a combined squad would be stronger.
Indeed O'Neill is quoted as saying:
'the political climate had changed and an all-Ireland team was now a "possibility". However, he added: "I don't know even at this stage if everyone would want it to happen'
That is someway short of the Headline ("calling for an AI team").
As for Jennings, it is notable that his son, Pat Jennings Jr, who was eligible as a youngster for England, NI and ROI, chose NI. I daresay his father offered him some advice and assistance with his choice?
Bryan Hamilton is fair enough; mind you, he was employed by both teams, so he is in a unique, rather than typical, position.
As for DD, which Dougan are you referring to? The one who was an avowed Trades Unionist, or the one who stood for election for the (fringe, loony right wing) United Kingdom Independence Party Party? Frankly, he could have given Eamonn Dunphy lessons in contrariness!
And finally, there is poor George. Fair enough, he, too, is entitled to his opinion. But if his motivation was that an AI team might have given him a chance to perform at international level on the world stage, does that mean he would have guaranteed to turn up?
All of which is before pointing out that had he bothered to get sober and fit even for 6 months back in 1982, there was a place waiting for him in Billy Bingham's World Cup Finals squad.
No harm to the man, when he talked with his feet, he was a genius. But when he talked with his mouth, sadly he was frequently an embarrassment.

,
Also worth remembering that one of the reasons why Neil Lennon was singled out for sectarian abuse by the North’s support during the infamous game against Norway was because he had openly declared his support for an all Ireland team in an interview a few days earlier.

In his Biography Lennon talks of his regrets at not being picked to represent Ireland:

I would love to have had the chance to play for the Republic at Lansdowne Road, it would have been great, but it never became an issue I had to think about, Jack Charlton was the Ireland manager at the time, but he never made any approaches to me. By the time people were asking me whether I wished I was playing for the Republic it was too late. Still, I don't sit back now and think about what might have been. To me, playing for Celtic is just as good as pulling on the Republic shirt and that fact that I'm captaining this club to trophies and winning games in the Champions League means I can have no regrets.

It is hardly surprising to anyone, especially after what happened to him, that Lennon should have expressed a desire to play for the ROI, not least because in his era, ROI were qualifying for major finals, whilst we were crap.
But it is curious that you omit to mention what he wrote in his autobiography about actually playing for NI. I seem to recall the word "pride" featured prominently.

,
EG, what’s it like knowing that most of your former great players would be happy to see an end to your team?
Four or five hardly constitutes "most". Moreover, such comments are always likely to get over-reported, on the basis that "Man Bites Dog" is news, "Dog Bites Man" is not.

Anyhow, as I've said many times before, what matters to me is not the political leanings of the players away from the pitch, it's how they perform
on it which counts.

And in that respect, I am entirely happy with the way things are, not least in terms of effort and commitment.

P.S. Could we steer this thread away from a subject (AI team) which has been flogged to death elsewhere, and back to the topic in hand (NI fans, their behaviour, 1993 etc)?

[EalingGreen]

By the way wasn't there some controversy this summer with a team from Dublin playing up North, in a youths cup?
I actually just got the tail end of that story, can someone enlighten me?

One of the Dublin teams was accommodated in a hostel which was situated right by a loyalist housing estate. Some of them hung Tricolours out their windows one evening and may even have sung some "party tunes". Now whilst such behaviour ought to be tolerable enough, they were naive (imo) for not realising that this might cause a row with their neighbours.
Anyhow, the police sorted it, the organisers moved them, they carried on in the tournament, and they'll be back next year, as ever.
P.S. I fail to see what the above has to do with this thread.

About poaching! Thats rubbish, you can be Irish and living in Norn Ireland and want to play for your country - Ireland (the rep version!). Amazing, I know, for some to imagine this but thats what some want to do now - which is their right
I've outlined in my reply to CDG (above) why I used the term "poaching".
And this, too, is moving some way off-topic, btw.

[third policeman]

[quote=EalingGreen;1035736]. Fair enough, he, too, is entitled to his opinion. But if his motivation was that an AI team might have given him a chance to perform at international level on the world stage, does that mean he would have guaranteed to turn up?
All of which is before pointing out that had he bothered to get sober and fit even for 6 months back in 1982, there was a place waiting for him in Billy Bingham's World Cup Finals squad.
No harm to the man, when he talked with his feet, he was a genius. But when he talked with his mouth, sadly he was frequently an embarrassment.


I seriously think you need to quit at this point. If the only way that you can defend your position is by impuning the likes of, Dougan, Hamilton and one of the greatest footballers of all time and greatest Irishmen of the 20th century (George Best), then maybe your argument is just not worth defending.

[kingdomkerry]

Yes the loyalist teams fans behaved disgracefully in 93. Some of their supporters think they have moved on but IMO a lepar does'nt change his spots.

On AI team, dont see why not im sure if you did an AI survey at least 80% would be all for it. But a certain setion of the population of the north are happy to have an almost entirely loyalist fan base while trying to tie Irish players from the north to play with them so they have more to cheer about.

[geysir]

One of the Dublin teams was accommodated in a hostel which was situated right by a loyalist housing estate. Some of them hung Tricolours out their windows one evening and may even have sung some "party tunes".
Nonsense.
First the 16 year old children were attacked then they are falsely accused of aggravating the assault.
Alleged to have hung a tricolour and alleged to have sung party tunes by one person, by one poster on the Shamrock Rovers Ultra discussion Board.
This spurios allegation of aggravating the assault on them by a mob is so readily relayed by EG, is not supported by newspaper accounts or the police or any eye witness accounts.
dublin people (http://www.dublinpeople.com/content/view/867/57/)
RTE (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0729/northviolence.html)
Indo (http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/junior-footballers-attacked-by-sectarian-thugs-1443056.html)
Belfast Telegraph (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/sectarian-thuggery-against-dublin-players-turns-milk-cup-sour-13924335.html)
Coleraine Times (http://www.colerainetimes.co.uk/news/Milk-Cup-team-moved-after.4340725.jp)
Sport against racism (http://www.sari.ie/sarisite/Latest_News.html)
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7530995.stm)

[third policeman]

Yes the loyalist teams fans behaved disgracefully in 93. Some of their supporters think they have moved on but IMO a lepar does'nt change his spots.

On AI team, dont see why not im sure if you did an AI survey at least 80% would be all for it. But a certain setion of the population of the north are happy to have an almost entirely loyalist fan base while trying to tie Irish players from the north to play with them so they have more to cheer about.

Regrettably I agree. Was hoping that a modest suggestion about an AI team for Celtic cup would engender rational and considered response from EG and co, alas it merely sparked off an increasingly paranoiac stream culminating with a tasteless attack on George Best. The NI national team has become an important signifier of Unionist identity, and thus we are not actually talking about football here at all.

I started out believing that the NI team could be a means of uniting communities around a common footballing heritage that could be divorced from sectarian political mindsets, but it just aint possible. This is probably why so many former NI footballers (notwithstanding EG's tortuous arguments to the contrary) are advocating an AI side which they believe would be primarily about football not competing idealogies or political identies. Maybe they have looked across at Rugby and wondered why there has never been an issue about sectarian chanting and abuse of players? Why have leading players never had to retire becasue of death threats? Why has the team managed to attract broad cross community and cross border support? Why has it been so easy to reach agreement about flags and anthems?

[EalingGreen]

EG I love you to bits, but if I didn't know better I'd think you were educated by THe Jesuists. Are you seriously suggesting that there is a parallel between Czechs supporting NI and NI Catholics supporting RoI.
No. I was merely making the point that in contrast to who you play for, who you support is a matter of choice. To illustrate, I cited some v.unusual examples of people choosing to support a country with which they had no connection whatever.

Your account of the Shamrocks v Brazil game (and its baroque conspiracy theories) is strangely at odds with the well documented version related by NI legend Derek Dougan. I dont believe that there is any evidence that this game was a cunning plot to undermine the IFA, the existence of the NI team and probably the very union itself. This is a piece of quaint mythology and quite probably the product of Unionist paranoia.
No offence, but I suspect I know a bit more of what was behind this game than you do. Anyhow, the 1973 game has been done to death, including by me(!), elsewhere on this forum, if you care to Search.

You are categorically wrong when you state that there was little interest amongst NI fans in the match. There was a great deal of excitement amongst my NI supporting relatives in Derry and Newry and several uncles and cousins came down for the match. But maybe they dont count as real NI supporters? Well dont worry they got the message, like nearly all Catholics in Northern Ireland that I know they now follow RoI.

I actually said that I do not recall any great interest/enthusiasm amongst NI fans for the game. Your experience might be different. Either way, we are talking about a game 35 years ago, one which I was not at.

This is the nub of the problem. Most NI supporters dont really mind if nearly half the population support another team.
How do you know that "Most NI supporters dont really mind if nearly half the population support another team"
That is not my desire or my experience, nor does it explain the enormous amount of work which is being done to spread the game right throughout NI, by schemes such as FFA. And the fact that the whole match-day environment hasd been hugely transformed by the fans themselves demonstrates that they (we) want to get away from the bad old days of Red, White & Blue and Billy Boys etc? (Btw, not meaning to be picky, but probably 90% of the population of NI don't support the football team. Many more people don't like football, indeed sport generally, in NI than those who do)

Having too many of them around at games might spoil the fun. We would have to make too many changes to make them feel comfortable.
That is a disgraceful slur, which I personally resent deeply, not least coming from someone who clearly hasn't been to an NI international in years (if ever).

What's wrong with GTSQ? It's our anthem isn't it, and what's wrong the flag and the odd bit of banter? Sure if they dont like it they can always follow "their" team.

Fyi, two Polls on OWC, which each attracted hundreds of votes (700+?) both came down with a clear 2:1 majority to see GSTQ replaced. And that was without even knowing what might replace it. Of course, I can't promise that they are entirely representative of all NI fans, but we can be sure that all those who voted are themselves fans.
As for people following "their team", I would point out to you that there is a section of football fans in NI who see the NI team as being "too fenian" (for want of a better term) and who actually support a "proper British" team - Ingurland - even when they recently played us.
Like those NI Nationalists who allow their politics to inform their sporting allegiances, they must be entitled to do so. We'll hardly miss them...

It's all well and good pointing at a few Catholics who do follow NI and then suggest that proves that everything must be OK.
I never claimed that "everything is OK". Rather, I said that there is no longer any good reason why RCs/Nats couldn't follow NI should they choose. That is not the same as being "content" that many do not actually choose to do so.

Whichever way you look at it your support is massively unbalanced
Agree (and regret).

you should think a lit bit harder and be more open to imaginative ideas if you really want to change that situation.

One of the reasons I read and post on this forum is to broaden my mind, and other posters' minds, over issues like these.
And one way of changing the situation was my invitation to you to accompany me to a game, so as to see for yourself. (The offer still stands, btw)
More generally, whilst I see change for the better occurring all the time, I've never been so naive as to believe it would happen overnight.

In the meantime I will defo go to Windsor with you for an up coming game. I have a client who seems to have sources in the IFA. He offered me tickets for a game last year, so I'll see what he can do with a bit of notice.
What was that you were saying earlier about NI fans "not wanting your kind about the place"? ;)
(Joke, btw)
Anyhow, I'll see how I'm fixed for forthcoming home games (away games are often as easy/cheap for me, as it happens) and maybe take you up on that.

[EalingGreen]

Yet another example of you not quoting properly or comprehending what I write.
Did I not write specifically about your argument,
"The old, what about Charlton argument. What a load of blinkered immature tosh"
Tosh = baloney, a word used to describe your argument. Tosh is a mild word and nowhere near the definition of cráp. What type of poster would lower their debating standards (maybe even purposely) to misquote another poster in order to crudely bolster up a baseless accusation?
Whilst I don't mind debating such issues with the likes of Third Policeman and Co.Down Green etc, I find you a complete waste of time.

[EalingGreen]

I seriously think you need to quit at this point. If the only way that you can defend your position is by impuning the likes of, Dougan, Hamilton and one of the greatest footballers of all time and greatest Irishmen of the 20th century (George Best), then maybe your argument is just not worth defending.
Don't you think it possible to make a distinction between the footballer and the person? To take a "neutral" example, Ashley Cole is a sublime player, but seemingly a bit of an ******* away from the pitch.
Therefore, I'd pick him if I needed a Left Back, but not a dinner companion.
In the case of the above three NI players, it is hardly controversial to contend that both Dougan and Best were seriously flawed individuals, though I can find excuses for George (i.e. alcoholism, fame, hangers-on etc) which I don't see as applying to Dougan.
As for Bimbo Hamilton, I never impugned him. He has been one of my heroes, both on and off the pitch, since I first saw him play over 30 years ago. Consequently, whether I agree with his opinions or not, I have the utmost respect for them.

[paul_oshea]

One of the Dublin teams was accommodated in a hostel which was situated right by a loyalist housing estate. Some of them hung Tricolours out their windows one evening and may even have sung some "party tunes". Now whilst such behaviour ought to be tolerable enough, they were naive (imo) for not realising that this might cause a row with their neighbours.
Anyhow, the police sorted it, the organisers moved them, they carried on in the tournament, and they'll be back next year, as ever.
P.S. I fail to see what the above has to do with this thread.

I've outlined in my reply to CDG (above) why I used the term "poaching".
And this, too, is moving some way off-topic, btw.

In fairness EG, a load of young lads playing and somewhat representing their country, are obviouslly going to be proud to fly the flag of their nation when playing outside of said nations territory(there is a little compliment there for you too :) ). The point that you accidently touched on, would have been correct in that whoever organised their accomodation to be right beside this housing estate needs to be held accountable.

KK re-read what you said. those poor lepars would probably be dead 15 years later never mind have shed or changed their spots :D

[paul_oshea]

Don't you think it possible to make a distinction between the footballer and the person? To take a "neutral" example, Ashley Cole is a sublime player, but seemingly a bit of an ******* away from the pitch.
Therefore, I'd pick him if I needed a Left Back, but not a dinner companion.
In the case of the above three NI players, it is hardly controversial to contend that both Dougan and Best were seriously flawed individuals, though I can find excuses for George (i.e. alcoholism, fame, hangers-on etc) which I don't see as applying to Dougan.
As for Bimbo Hamilton, I never impugned him. He has been one of my heroes, both on and off the pitch, since I first saw him play over 30 years ago. Consequently, whether I agree with his opinions or not, I have the utmost respect for them.

Not necessarily, unless of course you are using it to discredit the persons beliefs/opinions because they don't sit in the same box as yours ;)

[co. down green]

I take more comfort from the example of Tony Kane and Michael O'Connor (players more advanced in their careers, btw), who have come back into the fold.

Fair play to Worthington on this one, he guaranteed O’Connor a starting place on the senior team, (irrespective of form) if he returned to play for the North, and he’s played the lad. Although it must be worrying when your manager is selecting players simply to get ‘one over on them’, rather than for what the player can bring to the team, but I suppose after being told to sling his hook by some of the other Lads from the North he tried to poach, he had to use desperate measures to save face.

As regards Kane, he’s likely to be playing for someone like Harland & Wolff Welders next year. Even Don Givens, who knows very little about football, recognised that Kane wasn’t good enough to cut it at a higher level and was why he was sent packing back to the IFA.


One of the Dublin teams was accommodated in a hostel which was situated right by a loyalist housing estate. Some of them hung Tricolours out their windows one evening and may even have sung some "party tunes". Now whilst such behaviour ought to be tolerable enough, they were naive (imo) for not realising that this might cause a row with their neighbours.

Did you just make that up as some kind of justification for sectarian thuggery ?

Can’t find any reports to what you have claimed above.

The Belfast Telegraph certainly reported it a lot differently than you, as did every television station on the Island.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/sectarian-thuggery-against-dublin-players-turns-milk-cup-sour-13924335.html

[third policeman]

Did you just make that up as some kind of justification for sectarian thuggery ?

Can’t find any reports to what you have claimed above.

The Belfast Telegraph certainly reported it a lot differently than you, as did every television station on the Island.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/sectarian-thuggery-against-dublin-players-turns-milk-cup-sour-13924335.html


The man has access to higher sources of information than the likes of us. They are quite possibly even extraterrestrial in origin.

[EalingGreen]

Fair play to Worthington on this one, he guaranteed O’Connor a starting place on the senior team, (irrespective of form) if he returned to play for the North, and he’s played the lad. Although it must be worrying when your manager is selecting players simply to get ‘one over on them’, rather than for what the player can bring to the team, but I suppose after being told to sling his hook by some of the other Lads from the North he tried to poach, he had to use desperate measures to save face.
[/url]
Not what happened. Following a couple of impressive U-21 displays (as Captain) O'Connor made his full debut as a sub, alongside the likes of Michael Gault of Linfield, in a friendly against Georgia, coming on whilst we were already 3 goals up. In truth, he looked nervous and didn't play well.
He was much better playing 30 mins as sub in the Scotland friendly.
He was called into the Squad for our opening WCQ games, playing very impressively for the whole of the second half v the Czechs.
With injuries etc, there is every chance he'll start against Slovenia and San Marino.
So much for his being given a "token cap" to keep him away from you.

As regards Kane, he’s likely to be playing for someone like Harland & Wolff Welders next year. Even Don Givens, who knows very little about football, recognised that Kane wasn’t good enough to cut it at a higher level and was why he was sent packing back to the IFA.

Really? Kane was actually on the fringe of the Blackburn first team when Mark Hughes was in charge (though I don't know how he's fared under Ince).
Anyhow, even if Ince doesn't rate him, I expect he'll have little difficulty finding another decent club in England.


Did you just make that up as some kind of justification for sectarian thuggery ?

Can’t find any reports to what you have claimed above.

The Belfast Telegraph certainly reported it a lot differently than you, as did every television station on the Island.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/sectarian-thuggery-against-dublin-players-turns-milk-cup-sour-13924335.html
How exactly did I "justify" sectarian thuggery in my post?
From what I saw reported, it was just a bunch of young lads on an away trip, indulging in a bit of high spirits, unaware that their (otherwise inoffensive) behaviour was liable to provoke some hoods in a nearby Estate.
If they were a bit naive or unworldly (imo), no blame should attach to them for that. Rather, all the blame should rest with the scumbags who tried to attack them.
But let's get real, here. There was a nasty sectarian incident, which fortunately was sorted before it became too serious, with suitable alternative arrangements made to avoid a repetition.
Anyhow, this sort of thing happens all too frequently in NI; therefore, had it not been a "football" story, especially one which the Media could tag onto the (otherwise 'good news') Milk Cup, I seriously doubt it would have attracted so much attention.

But hey, for trying to put a bit of perspective on the story, as opposed to a bit of spin, I daresay that marks me down as being just as bad as the scumbags who threatened these lads in the first place....:rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

In fairness EG, a load of young lads playing and somewhat representing their country, are obviouslly going to be proud to fly the flag of their nation when playing outside of said nations territory(there is a little compliment there for you too :) ). The point that you accidently touched on, would have been correct in that whoever organised their accomodation to be right beside this housing estate needs to be held accountable.

Read what I actually posted. I described the players' behaviour as "tolerable enough" i.e. I sympathasised with them, the clear point being that it was their attackers who were intolerant.
As for the accommodation, afaik, this particular block had been used in previous years, and this team had competed for several years, without any trouble whatever.
With literally dozens of teams and their attendants etc having to be accommodated each year, at the height of the holiday season, getting low-cost accommodation is bound to be difficult - hence the use of out-of-town hostels.
Sadly, this particular one gave rise to an incident which the organisers didn't foresee. However, I hardly think they should be condemned too readily for that, since they have been running this tournament, including with many, many ROI teams, for over 25 years, without anything of the sort occurring previously.
Therefore, I've no doubt they will learn for next year, and Cherry Orchard will be back, as usual.

Now can someone remind me how this affects the debate over the Marie Jones play about a match in 1993? :confused:

[EalingGreen]

Not necessarily, unless of course you are using it to discredit the persons beliefs/opinions because they don't sit in the same box as yours ;)

What? Just because someone is/was a marvellous player, doesn't mean his views on matters which are as much political as footballing, carry any more weight than those of a journeyman.

To take two (non-Irish) examples, Glenn Hoddle was a marvellous player, whereas Sir Alex Ferguson was decidedly average. But I have no problem in declaring that Hoddle - a hero of mine - frequently talks nonsense, whereas Ferguson - who I can't stand - knows what's what.

Anyhow, had e.g. George Best been a journeyman player, rather than a genius, would anyone now be repeating his views on such matters, or would he (and they) be forgotten?

[ifk101]

Read what I actually posted. I described the players' behaviour as "tolerable enough" i.e. I sympathasised with them, the clear point being that it was their attackers who were intolerant.

What you wrote was ....

Some of them hung Tricolours out their windows one evening and may even have sung some "party tunes".

None of the reports on the incident state that tricolours were hung out of the windows. And you, and only you, suggest that some "party tunes" were sung. Can you state where you got your information from so that others can evaluate the accuracy of it?


As for the accommodation, afaik, this particular block had been used in previous years, and this team had competed for several years, without any trouble whatever.
With literally dozens of teams and their attendants etc having to be accommodated each year, at the height of the holiday season, getting low-cost accommodation is bound to be difficult - hence the use of out-of-town hostels.
Sadly, this particular one gave rise to an incident which the organisers didn't foresee. However, I hardly think they should be condemned too readily for that, since they have been running this tournament, including with many, many ROI teams, for over 25 years, without anything of the sort occurring previously.
Therefore, I've no doubt they will learn for next year, and Cherry Orchard will be back, as usual.

And Crumlin United. There was two Dublin teams in the hostel.

[co. down green]

From what I saw reported, it was just a bunch of young lads on an away trip, indulging in a bit of high spirits, unaware that their (otherwise inoffensive) behaviour was liable to provoke some hoods in a nearby Estate:

So did you make it up ?

I wonder where you saw your version of events reported?

Milk Cup spokesman, Jim Sandford :

"There is obviously still yobs out there who decided they wanted to show the ugly face of Northern Ireland."

Mr Sandford admitted the teenagers were "shaken up" by the incident.

"A couple of the gang also squared up nose-to-nose with our staff who were trying to deal with the situation and threatened to have them knee-capped.

"One said their father was a big man in Belfast. But I think when they heard the sirens they took to their heels," he added.

[geysir]

Whilst I don't mind debating such issues with the likes of Third Policeman and Co.Down Green etc, I find you a complete waste of time.
There is nothing to debate.
A sincere retraction will do. Until that time, your interference with my written word and presenting it as a quote in order to bolster up a baseless accusation will be regarded as a devious but vain action

[EalingGreen]

To put the record straight over the Milk Cup incident, I can't find the actual link, but this is what was reported on a Shamrock Rovers site at the time:

"im up here now in the milk cup with rovers 17s. i was talkin to a few cherry orchard and crumlin lads and they said that the orchard lads were shouting out up the ra to protestant people in the nearby estate.they also had Celtic and Ireland flags hanging out of there windows.both teams are now staying in hotels nearby."

I have to say, this has a ring of truth to it, since it would explain how these the Orchard lads came to the attention of their neighbours at 10 pm on a Monday night, far away from the actual tournament itself.

But I repeat, whether the flags and the Ra chants occurred or not, it in no way justifies such a disgraceful attack on them (as I indicated when describing the lads' apparent behaviour as "tolerable enough" and their assailants as "scum")

Anyhow, when originally replying to Bennocelt's request for more information on this incident, I gave a brief summary, which I stand by.

However, I do regret one thing, namely even bothering to respond, since I am still at a loss to know what this deplorable incident has got to do with the "November" play, the NI team, or our fans.

Frankly, had this involved e.g. a Geography Field Trip to the Giant's Causeway by a group of Dublin schoolboys, the incident is just as likely to have happened and would be just as despicable. In fact, the only difference is that it would have been harder to use as a stick with which to beat NI football fans. Again. :rolleyes:

[kingdomkerry]

Do you ever get off the internet. Id say half the posts on this thread are yours. You need to get a life!

[geysir]

It gets better and better, Ealing Green only regrets one thing, that is, "bothering to respond".
How about regretting to neglect to mention in your post that the source of your information was someone else who said it came from the SR Ultra web site.

It appears he believes everybody must have done something wrong in order to be at the brunt of sectarian abuse, be it the Republic team, the Dublin kids, probably Mary McAleese as well when she was in Coleraine.

[co. down green]

To put the record straight over the Milk Cup incident, I can't find the actual link, but this is what was reported on a Shamrock Rovers site at the time

Where did you cut and paste it from if you couldn’t find the link?



Wishful thinking on your part. O'Neill and Jennings, interviewed after a commemorative dinner in Dublin, when they weren't going to want to say anything too controversial to embarrass their hosts)?,

Or perhaps their playing days at Windsor Park were tarnished by their memories of being bombarded by sectarian taunts from their own fans.

For decades, in the face of truly awful sectarian behaviour at Windsor Park, much of it directed at many of the past Northern stars who were Catholic, the IFA did nothing. Nor indeed did Linfield, who were happy down the years to accept the title of `the Protestant club for Protestant supporters'.

Among those targeted in the worst days at Windsor Park was perhaps the greatest Irish soccer goalkeeper of all time, Pat Jennings, and later the current Celtic manager, Martin O'Neill -- even when he was the Northern Ireland captain. Indeed, who better to understand Neil Lennon's dilemma when he returned to Parkhead last week then his own manager?

[mypost]

Or the most recent (RoI 0-1 NI) game?

That wasn't a "game", that was a charity kickabout, albeit for a good cause. Up there as a result, in importance with testimonials.

The most recent serious game finished 1-1 in 1995.

[paul_oshea]

KK I think he took your advice and got a life...for a while at least :D

In fairness to EG, the milk cup incident hasn't really anything to do with the title, but we digressed as generally happens in forums on the internet, its like a mind map almost though on this thread. EG, though, if you didn't care for it, there was one simple response and none of the last 15 or so posts would have been necessary, and that response was, "what happened in the the milk cup was wrong, under any circumstance". You chose to defend it ( the funniest thing is that you didn't really agree with yourself deep down defending it I beleive ), knowing there was nothing to gain from it, but felt it somewhat reflected your own character/personality, by parking the blame at what caused the problem, and that "cause" being the school kids.

Anyway, 5 degrees of kevin bacon, perhaps Marie Jones knows someone in the said estate :D

[Den Perry]

Anyhow, since the FAI unilaterally tore up the Gentleman's Agreement with the IFA not to pick players from each others territory, I now have no affinity to the ROI team.
I can only regret that this happened to him, and also that some so-called Loyalist might have been depriving NI of a future international, for all he knew.
Anyhow, at least it could be argued that the lad in question has a legitimate excuse for not following NI. Shame, really, especially since if he could be persuaded to give us another chance and actually attend a game, he would see that he could do so without fear of being similarly abused these days.
Erm....both my nephew and I are from the south of the border..he played in Milk Cup with a Dublin club.....and you're trying to poach him for NI..hypocrite lol!!

[EalingGreen]

. EG, though, if you didn't care for it, there was one simple response and none of the last 15 or so posts would have been necessary, and that response was, "what happened in the the milk cup was wrong, under any circumstance".
I have absolutely no problem in putting my name to the following statement:
"What happened in Coleraine* was wrong under any circumstance". Nor has anything I've posted contradict such a Statement. But if some people misconstrue what I post, perhaps out of prejudice against me and what I believe, then there's little I can (easily) do about that.

* - I've inserted "Coleraine" since the actual incident occurred miles from the Milk Cup, long after the day,s play had finished and whose only MC involvement followed MC Officials arriving to defend the Dublin teams and re-accommodate them. The competition does not deserve to be tarnished in this way.


. You chose to defend it
Please quote where I defended the attackers, or what they did? Or even where I blamed the Dublin lads for provoking it.

[aidz1]

EG

Should you not be in slovenia

[EalingGreen]

EG

Should you not be in slovenia

What makes you think I might not be? Or haven't you ever wondered about the "World" part of the World Wide Web? ;)

As it happens, I'm in Chicago (don't ask, long story), but I've found a Pub which is showing the game, so I'll be in Maribor in spirit. ;)

[aidz1]

What makes you think I might not be? Or haven't you ever wondered about the "World" part of the World Wide Web? ;)

As it happens, I'm in Chicago (don't ask, long story), but I've found a Pub which is showing the game, so I'll be in Maribor in spirit. ;)

eh...cos it would be quite sad to be writing on here while on a NI trip abroad

[theworm2345]

As it happens, I'm in Chicago (don't ask, long story), but I've found a Pub which is showing the game, so I'll be in Maribor in spirit. ;)

You lucky ******* ;) Where are you watching? Fado? Gingers? The Globe? You may run into Fergie's Son there, I'll probably watch on my computer :)

[Fergie's Son]

What makes you think I might not be? Or haven't you ever wondered about the "World" part of the World Wide Web? ;)

As it happens, I'm in Chicago (don't ask, long story), but I've found a Pub which is showing the game, so I'll be in Maribor in spirit. ;)

Which pub are you going to watch it in? Few good ones around. I'll be in Fado on Grand and Clark on Wednesday for the Ireland/Cyprus match.

[third policeman]

Hi EG. Very best of luck against Slovenia. Hope you forget about Gibson and reciprocate. Hope you are enjoying Chicago.

[geysir]

I have absolutely no problem in putting my name to the following statement:
"What happened in Coleraine* was wrong under any circumstance". Nor has anything I've posted contradict such a Statement. But if some people misconstrue what I post, perhaps out of prejudice against me and what I believe, then there's little I can (easily) do about that.

------
Please quote where I defended the attackers, or what they did? Or even where I blamed the Dublin lads for provoking it.
Lets examine what you wrote seeing as you are persisting with defending what could be perceived as a level of mudslinging.
You stated as fact
"some of them hung Tricolours out their windows one evening"
and then suggested
"may even have sung some "party tunes"."
And went on to write
"Now whilst such behaviour ought to be tolerable enough, they were naive (imo) for not realising that this might cause a row with their neighbours"

If it was fact or fiction, you have no source for that info, not newspaper, eyewitness or police.
Your only source is someone who said it was someone who said it was an ultra keyboard warrior.

That might pass for believable standard of debate on the OWC board.
If we adopted that standard here,
then any idiot could easily write that those kids were attacked by a group of NI fans wearing NI shirts brandishing Union Jacks and may have even chanted Greysteel Greysteel, based on a post written in a discussion board in China.

Closer to home, we have the Derry Journal reports of the Linfield mob at Brandywell recently.
That there was a group of (say 50?) Linfield fans chanting Greysteel.

It is not in cloud cuckoo land to believe that 25 years ago there was also a group of spectators who shouted out Greysteel and Trick or Treat and could be heard when the team came out and could be heard when the Sash was being sung, as reported by eyewitnesses.
But no, nobody heard Greysteel 7 Ireland Nil.

[third policeman]

Just watching NI v Slovenia. No doubt you will argue (EG and Gather Round) that "Rule Brittania" is not a sectarian chant, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with this essentially harmless patriotic ditty. However, it seems strange that the supporters of other British nations (ie Scotland and Wales) dont seem to have this one in their repetoire. But then maybe their singing is directed at encouraging their team rather than asserting a highly divisive and provocative political proposition.

[cheifo]

Hmmmmm...so a night in November is not worth seeing then?:)

[Paddy Garcia]

Had you asked me that question a few years ago, I'd happily have said ROI.

Anyhow, since the FAI unilaterally tore up the Gentleman's Agreement with the IFA not to pick players from each others territory, I now have no affinity to the ROI team. I'm not saying I actively want to see them beaten, but I'm not bothered when they lose. Indeed, when sitting in an Irish bar in Copenhagen a couple of years back, severely hungover after a hard-fought draw, I laughed as loudly as anyone when the TV showed the goals from the Cyprus v ROI game. (Curiously enough, none of the Bar Staff saw the funny side as we all sang "One Team in Ireland")


I'm sorry that you seem so bitter, perhaps its inevitable. I do hope the Irish fans don't end up the same though. It would be great if you could put these feelings behind you.

Funnily enough, the thugs referred to in these posts never really cause that much hatred. They are seen for what they are and thankfully readily dismissed.

[Gather round]

Just watching NI v Slovenia. No doubt you will argue (EG and Gather Round) that "Rule Brittania" is not a sectarian chant, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with this essentially harmless patriotic ditty. However, it seems strange that the supporters of other British nations (ie Scotland and Wales) dont seem to have this one in their repetoire. But then maybe their singing is directed at encouraging their team rather than asserting a highly divisive and provocative political proposition.

Aye, I'd agree it was harmless and a laugh with maybe some self-parody thrown in.

It's hardly strange that Scottish and Welsh fans don't sing it. They're less appreciative of irony than we are :)

I'd recommend a visit to Slovenia- friendly locals, breathtaking scenery, nice little stadium close to full. One slight caveat- if ye're in Bar Blef by Ljubljana's Triple Bridge after last orders, steer clear of a Bosnian guy called Fouad. He'll buy ye drinks, but only if ye agree to help him cut off Doanld Rumsfeld and the other neo-cons' cocks. Last seen staggering uphill to the castle saying he was off to Chechnya.