Another Nordie thread

[paul_oshea]

Not quite sure what a 'mock "Royal Wave"' is :confused:.

Anyhow, "most" people did not "get the idea he was stirring" - or at least those actually at the game, like myself. Rather, a few people, possibly with an ulterior motive and likely not even at the game, have spread Chinese Whispers. The worst of these was that he was egging the crowd on to sing the Billy Boys. Considering half his team was Catholic, why in Hell would he do that?

And why is it hard to understand that in his last ever game in charge, he would encourage the crowd to get behind the team?

Tbh, I think at least part of the reason for the many exagerrations and distortions of the scenes that night - and I accept there was much bad behaviour from many NI fans - is that the ROI thought we were going to be a pushover (esp having won 3-0 in Dublin).

The fact that we wanted to win it as badly as you seems to have been a bit of a shock. And I have no doubt that one of the reasons why the players in particular were so fired up, was to try and give Billy B a winning send-off - Catholic players and all. Not bad for a notorious "bigot", eh?

Or didn't you notice how joyously Jimmy Quinn celebrated his goal? :rolleyes:


i have come to the conculsion that EGs thoughts are so deeply entrenched on one side, that he tries to reflect, mirror like, an image of ROI supporters to justify his own beliefs, reading this post I am even more affirmed in my view of this.

Thats not to say I don't enjoy his posts though :D

See EG, if we all start loving you and agreeing with you, would your opinion change, or would you just not bother to post?!

[ifk101]

I think before this thread continues on its "what Billy Bingham did or not do path", let's start seeing some video evidence.

The match took place 15 years ago. The only thing I remember from that night is Alan McLoughlin's goal, the result, and Jack Charlton's press conference afterwards when he said Alan McLoughlin finally justified his existance.

[Drumcondra 69er]

More decorum? Come on, it was a football match, not the state opening of Dail Eireann. Bingham did nothing wrong. Blame the minority in the crowd by all means. Hardly revisionist- we said it at the time too.

It was a football match with certain political sensitivites, I cancelled my trip up there at the time due to what was going on (and the lack of tickets). And I'd have been a regular visitor to the north rather then someone who'd not have set foot in it previously but the situation was as bad as it had been in a long time in November 93.

Look, I'd expect you to have a different opinion to us on it but sectarian chanting could clearly be heard consitently throughout the game on TV, maybe Billy was stoking it up when there was a lull in the sectarian aspect and the only chant in the ground was the 'one team in Ireland' chant but hat wasn't how it appeared. And I doubt for a second that Bingham wasn't aware of the sectarian stuff, it was clearly audible and wasn't isolated. Hence why I think he sullied his bib that night.

But it's all water under the bridge now and I certainly didn't let it spoil my enjoyment after the final whistle that night.

And even though it was 15 years ago it's hardly surprising we still talk about it given that it was the match that sealed our 2nd WC qualification, it's one of the most important results in our history.

[Gather round]

You knew what I meant, D9-69. Judging by this thread your fans still talk about the opposition manager almost as much as you do the qualification itself ;)

[Drumcondra 69er]

You knew what I meant, D9-69. Judging by this thread your fans still talk about the opposition manager almost as much as you do the qualification itself ;)

For reasons I've tried to articulate above. It's not something that regulalry gets dragged up at Ireland matches though, trust me on that.

That said, I've not seen any playwrights from the Republic write about it.....;)

We prefer to write about the likes of this....

In High Germany
http://www.irishplayography.com/search/play.asp?play_id=278

I'd recommend it if anyone hasn't seen it, tends to do limited runs every now and again and I still have a recording of it from RTE from around 15 years back as well. Superb play.

[ifk101]

Judging by this thread your fans still talk about the opposition manager almost as much as you do the qualification itself ;)

Obviously if reference is made to the discussed topic in this thread. ;)

[Gather round]

This thread is hardly untypical though, is it? The subject does tend to recur- I find when your fans are talking about NI and England, and the likelihood of playing them in future, the games in 1993 and 1995 are invariably mentioned. At which point someone tends to say that the earlier date was when they stopped following NI, and that BB was to blame.

[Drumcondra 69er]

This thread is hardly untypical though, is it? The subject does tend to recur- I find when your fans are talking about NI and England, and the likelihood of playing them in future, the games in 1993 and 1995 are invariably mentioned. At which point someone tends to say that the earlier date was when they stopped following NI, and that BB was to blame.

Tends to recur whenever A Night in November does a run or, in this instance, is the subject of a TV programme. And I don't think 1993 was mentioned in any major fashion when the Celtic cup was announced although I'm open to correction on that...

Generally we prefer to talk about 1988 (or the 1990 (twice) and 1991 games) when discussing England...;)

[third policeman]

So we football fans must not express our opposition towards something which we see as threatening our very existence, for fear of being traduced and misrepresented, or associated by others with someone else's political movement?
Aye, right. :rolleyes:


Think it was Gramsci who said that politics is everythig that concerns people, so like it or not ever contribution on this thread is a political statement, but we'll come to that in a minute.

Clearly I wasn't proposing anything that threatened the existence of the NI team, rather something that might help normalise neighbourly relations and help NI reclaim a deeply alienated element of its potential support base. The fact that you rejected it from the perspective of NI's existing supporters is indicative of the problem. You know as well as I do that the % of Catholics who now follow or support the NI team is on a par with former RUC membership statistics. Irrespective of their on field performances the NI football team has become "structurally flawed" and to that extent maybe you should ask your Catholic NI supporting friends or the many more Catholics who dont follow NI what they think of my "Celtic Cup" proposition before rejecting it out off hand. I happen to think that it might do more to dismantle the barricades that have been erected around footballing identities on this island than 1000 grass roots initiatives. If Irish history teaches us anything, it is that symbolism matters, its what engenders a sense of belonging and inclusion.

If you want me to believe that your pasionate and eloquent support for the NI football team has nothing to do with someone else'e political movement, then you should be wiling to conceed that the NI team has no absolute right to exist. If it cannot draw cross community support and contribute to reconcilliation and the building of a common identity in the North then what is its function? It's nothing more than "Unionism at play." I dont accept a situation where all Northern Protestants support NI and 90% plus Catholics support RoI as a reasonable expression of free choice. It's sad and dispiriting and an insult to the achievments of Blancheflower, Doherty, Bingham, Best, Jennings, Dougan, Armstrong, Whiteside. O'Neil. Lennon and everyone else who has contributed to a proud footballing history.

[Gather round]

Clearly I wasn't proposing anything that threatened the existence of the NI team

From our point of view, any suggestion that we support a joint team with larger country or countries clearly threatens our team. You must know this, so your suggestion looks like either a wind up (no different from my question whether you'd support a joint England-RoI team), or completely naive.


rather something that might help normalise neighbourly relations

In the broader sense (ie not merely referencing football) I think our relations are OK at the moment.


and help NI reclaim a deeply alienated element of its potential support base

As I mentioned above, there's evidence that many of this group now feel more welcome and less alienated than they did, which is great. An extended period without endemic political violence is likely to make younger fans less bothered about supporting both teams, although I think we'd be happy enough if your fans in NI simply saw our team neutrally.


The fact that you rejected it from the perspective of NI's existing supporters is indicative of the problem

Hardly. We can only really react to it on behalf of our own fans. Are you a spokesman for the potential new fans? If so, welcome aboard, but we're not interested in your idea. If it, or something like it, is a condition for your support, then thanks but no thanks.


You know as well as I do that the % of Catholics who now follow or support the NI team is on a par with former RUC membership statistics

See above. I think both numbers will rise during a hopefully less volatile period politically.


Irrespective of their on field performances the NI football team has become "structurally flawed"

Disagree. Support is welcome from all. Those locally choosing to support someone else is fine provided they don't stereotype our team unfairly to justify it.


and to that extent maybe you should ask your Catholic NI supporting friends or the many more Catholics who dont follow NI what they think of my "Celtic Cup" proposition before rejecting it out off hand
I did ask the one I'll be watching the game in Slovenia with. He agreed with me. I'd be amazed if more than a tiny fraction of our support, regardless of creed or politics, agreed with you. Or if many of your own fans anywhere in ireland or elsewhere did so.


I happen to think that it might do more to dismantle the barricades that have been erected around footballing identities on this island than 1000 grass roots initiatives

You're getting a bit carried away with the soundbites there. We don't want to "dismantle the barricades" (figuratively speaking), since without them, we wouldn't have any international team to support...


If Irish history teaches us anything, it is that symbolism matters, its what engenders a sense of belonging and inclusion

Yes, but so what? We already have a sense of belonging and inclusion, it's just different from yours and the other 51 members of UEFA Your're suggesting we give it up, and offering little more than empty cliche to justify..


If you want me to believe that your pasionate and eloquent support for the NI football team has nothing to do with someone else'e political movement

All international teams have some link with 'national(ist), in the broadest sense, politics. If they didn't, we would just follow club or ad-hoc teams.


then you should be wiling to conceed that the NI team has no absolute right to exist

Where'd you read that? Gramsci's prison diaries?


If it cannot draw cross community support and contribute to reconcilliation and the building of a common identity in the North then what is its function?

It does draw, contribute and build. As well as play football, like.


It's nothing more than "Unionism at play"

You're nothing but a wind-up with a few names to drop.


I dont accept a situation where all Northern Protestants support NI and 90% plus Catholics support RoI as a reasonable expression of free choice

Well, obviously I think it is such an expression. Given that we can all support who the hell we like. Do you think all NI-based fans are sheep with no will of their own?


It's sad and dispiriting and an insult to the achievments of Blancheflower, Doherty, Bingham, Best, Jennings, Dougan, Armstrong, Whiteside. O'Neil. Lennon and everyone else who has contributed to a proud footballing history

It's none of those things, as above. Their achivements are rightly celebrated- on that at least we can agree.

[EalingGreen]

Think it was Gramsci who said that politics is everythig that concerns people, so like it or not ever contribution on this thread is a political statement, but we'll come to that in a minute.

Clearly I wasn't proposing anything that threatened the existence of the NI team, rather something that might help normalise neighbourly relations and help NI reclaim a deeply alienated element of its potential support base. The fact that you rejected it from the perspective of NI's existing supporters is indicative of the problem. You know as well as I do that the % of Catholics who now follow or support the NI team is on a par with former RUC membership statistics. Irrespective of their on field performances the NI football team has become "structurally flawed" and to that extent maybe you should ask your Catholic NI supporting friends or the many more Catholics who dont follow NI what they think of my "Celtic Cup" proposition before rejecting it out off hand. I happen to think that it might do more to dismantle the barricades that have been erected around footballing identities on this island than 1000 grass roots initiatives. If Irish history teaches us anything, it is that symbolism matters, its what engenders a sense of belonging and inclusion.

If you want me to believe that your pasionate and eloquent support for the NI football team has nothing to do with someone else'e political movement, then you should be wiling to conceed that the NI team has no absolute right to exist. If it cannot draw cross community support and contribute to reconcilliation and the building of a common identity in the North then what is its function? It's nothing more than "Unionism at play." I dont accept a situation where all Northern Protestants support NI and 90% plus Catholics support RoI as a reasonable expression of free choice. It's sad and dispiriting and an insult to the achievments of Blancheflower, Doherty, Bingham, Best, Jennings, Dougan, Armstrong, Whiteside. O'Neil. Lennon and everyone else who has contributed to a proud footballing history.

Gather Round has answered point-by-point in a manner with which I concur completely.

So rather than repeating the same, I will just make a general point. There are no good reasons, never mind "barricades" [sic], why anyone from NI cannot follow the team should they wish. This happy situation is a consequence of a great deal of work, done by many different people and agencies, both official (IFA, "Football For All" etc) and unofficial (fans, "Sea of Green etc) over a number of years.
Of course, it is still a "work in progress", but already it has been widely recognised by independent and authoritative bodies, including UEFA, City of Brussels, NI Community Relations Council etc. Indeed, you only need Google "SARI" and "Brian Kerr" to see where he has praised NI football for its success in this field, comparing it most favourably with other sports in Ireland.

But the key component of the above is "if they wish". That is, we cannot force anybody to support us against their will, nor would we wish to, even if we could.

Moreover, we are not going to apologise for, and/or change, our very nature, just to appease people whose political outlook means that they cannot or will not support any team calling itself "Northern Ireland", especially if that stance is further misinformed by an outdated, ill conceived and even prejudiced view of the true situation, viz "Billy Bingham is a Bigot" etc.

Sadly, there is still a significant political problem surrounding the NI team these days, but it is entrenched in the minds of our detractors, not in our own policies, practices and procedures. In which case, I and all my fellow fans who are committed to the team will do all we can both to reform (where that is still needed) and inform (where people are still ignorant); we can reasonably do no more.

Ultimately, the people of NI will decide for themselves which team they follow and I am happy to leave it at that. For I have no doubt that all reasonable people can in time be persuaded to give us a try, whether they take it further or not is up to them.

And as for the prejudiced, the politicised, the ignorant and the "bandwaggoners", they may support whoever they like. We do not want them; moreover, we do not need them.

Beyond that, there is not a lot more I can add, so i will leave the last words to a former NI footballer, speaking at a Football For All Awards Dinner:
"People like Stewart [Fans Award winner] are the unsung heroes who have been brave enough to challenge sectarianism and who have actively created a more fun, safe and family-orientated atmosphere at international games. Fans like Stewart have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games in recent years the envy of Fans across not only Europe but World football. From a personal point of view I would like to thank them for their efforts"
Neil Lennon, 2007

[third policeman]

Well, obviously I think it is such an expression. Given that we can all support who the hell we like. Do you think all NI-based fans are sheep with no will of their own?


My first two international matches were NI games in the 1970's when politics was a lot more divided but strangely football was not. I am not really sure why football is lagging so far behind other aspects of social and political progress in NI, maybe it attracts or encourages overly partisan and distorted outlooks. In a nutshell you think that two all-Ireland fixtures every couple of years is a priori unacceptable irrespective of whether it helps encourage cross comunity or cross border reconciliation, and you are happy to accept a situation where your national football team is not supported by nearly half the nation's population?

[EalingGreen]

Postscript:
I've just read an interview with Sammy Clingan, who has been forced by injury to withdraw from the NI squad for the weekend. In it, he is quoted as saying the following:

“I’m 100% committed to Northern Ireland and I love playing for my country and for that reason I am devastated to be missing these games."
“I missed two games in the Euro 2008 qualifiers against Sweden and Liechtenstein so I already know what it feels like to miss out on massive games. It is always a privilege to pull on the Northern Ireland jersey.”

And just in case you should be in any doubt as to who our wee Sammy is,

"There's only one Sammy Clingan,
Only One Sammy Clingan,
He comes from the Falls,
And he's got Big Balls,
Swinging in a Clingan Wonderland"
;)

[Gather round]

I am not really sure why football is lagging so far behind other aspects of social and political progress in NI

I don't think it is lagging compared to those other aspects.


maybe it attracts or encourages overly partisan and distorted outlooks

Unlikely. Most other apsects of social/ political life in NI tend to be fairly partisan. Our outlook is only distorted in the sense that it disagrees with yours.


In a nutshell you think that two all-Ireland fixtures every couple of years is a priori unacceptable

Unacceptable, yes. For reasons detailed at length, so not quite 'a priori' if by that you mean that we're dismissing it without listening to the argument.


irrespective of whether it helps encourage cross comunity or cross border reconciliation

Winding up NI fans encourages them how, exactly?


and you are happy to accept a situation where your national football team is not supported by nearly half the nation's population?

I'd prefer the numbers were higher (as detailed above), but yes, I'm relaxed about the current situation. Your plan would not increase support for a NI team- its intent looks the exact opposite.


GR has answered point-by-point in a manner with which I concur completely

Ditto, thanks ;)

[ifk101]

Postscript:
I've just read an interview with Sammy Clingan, who has been forced by injury to withdraw from the NI squad for the weekend. In it, he is quoted as saying the following:

“I’m 100% committed to Northern Ireland and I love playing for my country and for that reason I am devastated to be missing these games."
“I missed two games in the Euro 2008 qualifiers against Sweden and Liechtenstein so I already know what it feels like to miss out on massive games. It is always a privilege to pull on the Northern Ireland jersey.”

And just in case you should be in any doubt as to who our wee Sammy is,

"There's only one Sammy Clingan,
Only One Sammy Clingan,
He comes from the Falls,
And he's got Big Balls,
Swinging in a Clingan Wonderland"
;)

That's great to read EG.

But who's Sammy Clingan? :D

Edit: Just looked up your reference point Wikipedia and he sounds like a right superstar.

[paul_oshea]

what i don't fully understand(well lots actually :D) is the use of the word "we", when I read such comments as "we cannot force anybody to support us against their will", "If so, welcome aboard, but we're not interested in your idea" etc etc. Its like the "we" is some form of governing body over the team and its fans with beliefs based upon those from the very existence of the IFA. :confused:

[Gather round]

what i don't fully understand(well lots actually :D) is the use of the word "we", when I read such comments as "we cannot force anybody to support us against their will", "If so, welcome aboard, but we're not interested in your idea" etc etc. Its like the "we" is some form of governing body over the team and its fans with beliefs based upon those from the very existence of the IFA. :confused:

Paul- I think I can speak for EG on this thread, when I say that we (ie he and I) are accurately representing what NI fans think on this issue. Our source? Hundreds maybe thousands of other fans on OWC, mainly. You could say it's a self-selecting sample, I suppose, but a pretty big one in a small country. Trust us ;)

Obviously the very existence of the IFA is vital to us as international football fans. Because without it, we wouldn't be international football fans.


Just looked up your reference point Wikipedia and he sounds like a right superstar

He achieved more in Euro 2008 than any of your players.

[ifk101]

Well apart from getting Sammy Clingan into our line-up, there're no practical reasons for an "All-Ireland" team - a discussion that already has run its course on this site and a topic that has nothing to do with this thread.

I totally understand why NI fans would be against the notion of an All-Ireland team and, personally, it's an idea I'm against as well (although I'm obviously deeply disappointed about losing out on the services of Sammy Clingan).


He achieved more in Euro 2008 than any of your players.

Yes - totally agree. Time for Platini to give him an award.

[Gather round]

Thanks, IFK. I think we get the point about Sammy ;)

It's on the thread because Third Policeman raised it. Given that, NI fans are likely to reply. If the mods ain't happy, no doubt they'll lock/ delete etc. as necessary.

[ifk101]

Thanks, IFK. I think we get the point about Sammy ;)

Fair enough. Best to keep quiet about his talents or otherwise we'll have Dermot Ahern on Prime Time again ;)

[geysir]

Most of us couldn't tell Clingan from an Archon.
I'm told by a source, that when the NI team line up for the ahem English national anthem, Sammy will be the lad staring at his boots.

Billy Bingham's "cheeky" conduct before and during that November game considering the tense political climate of that time was of a naive buffoon.
Probably only in OWC land would his behavour in that tense atmosphere be regarded as normal.
Which is a large part of what Marie Jones play was about - normalization of certain attitudes in society which in healthier places would be regarded as obnoxious.

[Gather round]

Clingan's agent will be delighted with this thread ;)

I thought you lot weren't interested in NI's team and our players? Anyway, he's likely to come up against plenty of yours in English Division 2 this term.

[lopez]

Not sure about that. OK, there's a bit of banter and as the smallest country hereabouts we like to be ahead of the neighbours even if only temporarily. But clearly we are both third-rate. You are clearly self-conscious about our team and supporters (as this and other lengthy threads show), even if not the actual results. I mean, we're talking about a game 14 years ago that barely any of ye went to: yet everyone's fascinated by it.I think you really are deluding yourself if you think that we worry about how the O6C are doing when the final whistle goes of our games. In-ger-land perhaps, but NI never registers on anyone's scale.

What is strange about this 'obsession' is that it too is based on one match, the same one you and EG claim we are libelling Billy Bingham. We wanted the game moved because there seemed to be a civil situation that might be going out of control, with the 'hated' Republic of Ireland's football team a not improbable target. Call it an attempt at gamesmanship, but if the shoe was on the other foot, I'd like to see the reaction there.

Teams such as Spain refused to go to Belfast in the seventies, though you (or many of your co supporters) don't seem to hold that against them. Nor is there as much bile towards Scotland (refused to visit Belfast until 1980 in the BC while Wales and England came back in 1975) or England (who also managed to skip a visit to Belfast then unilaterally, with the Jocks, pulled the plug on the IFA's biggest earner). And so, if you allow me my opinion, this 'rivalry' with us is in my opinion is based on religious/political bigotry.

As for Billy that night, totally naive to start stoking up the crowd in such a manner. I used to have a lot of time for him. I met him just once at an APSCIL awards ceremony at the Oval, where he justified his behaviour on us having too many 'English' players. After pointing out his own side's dubious claim to pure Ulsterness, I asked him if he thought, just maybe, someone with both parents who were Irish, might have more of an affintity with that country than the one he was born in, and he reluctantly conceded he might.

EG: Nice to know that there are RCs in your supporters' club in London. You'll be pleased to know there are a few Protestants in ours, whatever the f*ck that's got to do with anything.

[EalingGreen]

Most of us couldn't tell Clingan from an Archon.

Proud of your ignorance, eh?


I'm told by a source, that when the NI team line up for the ahem English national anthem, Sammy will be the lad staring at his boots.

Yep, he's no fan of GSTQ. Then again, neither am I. What counts, however, is that he's proud to play for NI and I'm proud to support them. I daresay we both leave it to others, with little to trouble them, to get exercised over two minutes of music, played before the main event starts. (I personally find it a good time to nip to the loo, for a last minute pee.)

Billy Bingham's "cheeky" conduct before and during that November game considering the tense political climate of that time was of a naive buffoon.

Before you point to the mote in our eye, you might attend to the beam in your own.
Before the game, there was only one manager who was raising the atmosphere further, by
1. Trying to get the game moved to the Continent, when FIFA saw no need to do so;
2. Trying to avoid arriving in the home country at least 24 hours prior to kick-off, as demanded by FIFA;
3. Playing Rebel songs on the team bus to "gee up" his players;
4. Publicly refusing to shake the hand of the home manager after the game, despite it being offered in good faith and his (ROI) team having got the point they needed.
Both as a player and as a manager, Jack "Little Black Book" Charlton had a long history of getting involved in aggressive, even violent confrontation, with players, managers, media etc, including when he was manager of ROI. By contrast, Billy Bingham's record in this respect was impeccable.
Do you need me to use the term "bloody hypocrite", or do you get my drift? :mad:


Probably only in OWC land would his behavour in that tense atmosphere be regarded as normal.
Which is a large part of what Marie Jones play was about - normalization of certain attitudes in society which in healthier places would be regarded as obnoxious.
I don't know what land you inhabit, but mine is not one where I rely on 2nd hand "testimony", or the simplistic, puerile propaganda of a 3rd rate playwright who, when it came to her subject, couldn't tell her arse from a hole in the ground.
Instead, I prefer the real world of what I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears of an intensely competitive game, conducted against the background of a highly tense atmosphere, without anyone getting hurt or arrested, with no missiles or pitch invasions, no violence, and where an away fan was able to sit on his own in the midst of the home support, jump to his feet and cheer when McLoughlin scored, stay behind and listen on his radio to results from elsewhere, with the only adverse reaction being a couple of home fans saying "Jammy *******" on their way out.
Of course, if I was determined to live in the land which you seem to inhabit, I could allow my reaction to ROI fans to be coloured by my own actual experiences, including being forced, along with my fellow NI fans, to run for cover from a hail of stones as we left the main stand at Lansdowne, following the first ever visit of an NI team to Dublin in 1978.
But I am grateful that I have the experience, discernment and perspective to be able to conclude that that was then and this is now and that circumstances change in the interim.
Consequently, I would no more hold that experience against the typical ROI fan, than I would expect the average ROI fan to hold the events of 1993 against me.
Which is what the Play might have been about, had Marie Jones only the wit to know it.


P.S. In the meantime, I shall leave it up to you to decide for yourself whether you are an "average" ROI fan or not.

[third policeman]

EG, Gather Round, please please accept that I have no desire or agenda to destroy or abolish the NI international team. My idea might be eccentic and impractical but it is sincere. As I mentioned i was brought up supporting NI and went to NI games before I ever went near an RoI game. Maybe that assurance will help you to deal with the suggestion on its merits rather than assuming that it is some sort of republican trojan horse (United Ireland football team by stealth). It's not a million miles away from the Shamrock Rovers v Brazil model, which of course was supported by Derek Dougan and a number of other NI playing legends.

I honestly think you are deluded about the progress that has been made with respect to the atmosphere, ethos, iconography at NI games and what this says to nationalists. Sure the atmosphere at Windsor may be more "family friendly", but to the average nationalist watching a game on TV it's only the size of the crowd that distinguishes it from a Linfield home game. The current position is dangerously self-sustaining. It's one of those situations where people on the outside are better able to see what's wrong and believe me there is a lot wrong.

I dont doubt your sincerity and I agree with some of EG's suggestions about the need for a neutral anthem (add to that a neutral flag and a ban on flags which are clearly partisan and exclusive and you might be getting somewhere), but accept I am not advocating the abolition of the NI football team. I have too many fond memories of spain 82 to want to see that happen.

[bennocelt]

I'm told by a source, that when the NI team line up for the ahem English national anthem, Sammy will be the lad staring at his boots.
.

thats a bit silly then, whats his problem!

[gspain]

I honestly think you are deluded about the progress that has been made with respect to the atmosphere, ethos, iconography at NI games and what this says to nationalists. Sure the atmosphere at Windsor may be more "family friendly", but to the average nationalist watching a game on TV it's only the size of the crowd that distinguishes it from a Linfield home game. The current position is dangerously self-sustaining. It's one of those situations where people on the outside are better able to see what's wrong and believe me there is a lot wrong.



I been to 2 NI home games in recent years - Azerbaijan 05 and Spain 06. The atmosphere was superb even for Azerbaijan.

The sectarian chants and songs from 1993 (Billy Boys, Sash, FTP) etc are gone .

The other thing that has changed completely is the colour. Many did not wear colours in the late 80's/early 90's and those that did wore red/white and blue. Now virtually everyone is in green.

GSTQ is played beforehand but if it is really that offensive to stand for it you can always disappear to the toilet for a couple of minutes or arrive late.

BTW what do you imagine goes on at Linfield home games? They have changed completely too.

[geysir]

Before you point to the mote in our eye, you might attend to the beam in your own.
Before the game, there was only one manager who was raising the atmosphere further, by
1. Trying to get the game moved to the Continent, when FIFA saw no need to do so;
2. Trying to avoid arriving in the home country at least 24 hours prior to kick-off, as demanded by FIFA;
3. Playing Rebel songs on the team bus to "gee up" his players;
4. Publicly refusing to shake the hand of the home manager after the game, despite it being offered in good faith and his (ROI) team having got the point they needed.
Both as a player and as a manager, Jack "Little Black Book" Charlton had a long history of getting involved in aggressive, even violent confrontation, with players, managers, media etc, including when he was manager of ROI. By contrast, Billy Bingham's record in this respect was impeccable.
Do you need me to use the term "bloody hypocrite", or do you get my drift? :mad:

The old, what about Charlton argument. What a load of blinkered immature tosh.
Digging into your large bag of resentments again which you have stored some place on your computer to copy and paste whenever the opportunity arrives as some sort of immature retort.

Of course from your perspective everything was normal in NI at that time. It's normal to have a massacre in one place one week followed by a massacre in another place the next week. Its normal to have machine gun police guarding team hotels, flanking team buses, flanking arrival of teams into the stadium.
Ans apparantly to you, it's not normal for Charlton to want to take an 80 minute coach journey to avoid most of that security detail, but it must be part of a conspiracy to wind up Billy Bingham's team by acting the maggot.

[EalingGreen]

I think you really are deluding yourself if you think that we worry about how the O6C are doing when the final whistle goes of our games. In-ger-land perhaps, but NI never registers on anyone's scale.

Bully for You.

What is strange about this 'obsession' is that it too is based on one match, the same one you and EG claim we are libelling Billy Bingham.
There's no "claim" about it. To dub someone "Billy Bigot" on the strength of one (wilfully?) misinterpreted action, and in the face of a professional and personal record which completely refutes such as idea, is nothing other than libel - and offensively libel, at that.

We wanted the game moved because there seemed to be a civil situation that might be going out of control, with the 'hated' Republic of Ireland's football team a not improbable target. Call it an attempt at gamesmanship, but if the shoe was on the other foot, I'd like to see the reaction there.
I see. So the visiting manager attempts to get the game switched elsewhere, and to avoid the normal protocol about overnight stay etc, despite being so directed by a neutral body, FIFA, and that does not risk inflaming an already heightened atmosphere? That's OK, then.
And of course FIFA and the authorities in NI should make exceptions for the ROI team. Who cares about e.g. the rights of the Danes etc?

Teams such as Spain refused to go to Belfast in the seventies, though you (or many of your co supporters) don't seem to hold that against them. Nor is there as much bile towards Scotland (refused to visit Belfast until 1980 in the BC while Wales and England came back in 1975) or England (who also managed to skip a visit to Belfast then unilaterally, with the Jocks, pulled the plug on the IFA's biggest earner).
During a period in the 1970's, it was decided by the Police that it would not be wise to conduct international football matches in Belfast. One of the chief, if not the chief, reasons was that such games risked being attacked by the IRA etc, as indeed happened on at least one occasion subsequently. The IFA acceded to such a demand, without it compromising their relationship with the opposing teams.
And when, from 1975, it was increasingly deemed safe to return to Belfast, our opponents happily acceded.
This is in no way similar to the situation in 1993, when the Police, IFA and FIFA judged that the game could go ahead safely, ultimately being vindicated by events, but the visiting team tried to reject their judgement, essentially in order to gain an advantage over the other teams in their Group. You can call that "gamesmanship", I prefer a different term.
(Oh and if ever NI are in such a situation, we shall see what they do and you may see my reaction. In the meantime, though...)

And so, if you allow me my opinion, this 'rivalry' with us is in my opinion is based on religious/political bigotry.

Of course you are "allowed" your opinion, just as I am allowed the opinion that you are talking crap.

As for Billy that night, totally naive to start stoking up the crowd in such a manner. I used to have a lot of time for him.
So Billy was "naive", and "stoking up the crowd", whereas Jack was merely indulging in (harmless) "gamesmanship"? Nice of you to clear that one up for me...

I met him just once at an APSCIL awards ceremony at the Oval, where he justified his behaviour on us having too many 'English' players. After pointing out his own side's dubious claim to pure Ulsterness, I asked him if he thought, just maybe, someone with both parents who were Irish, might have more of an affintity with that country than the one he was born in, and he reluctantly conceded he might.

To concede that someone else might have a point, and so revise ones opinions, is hardly the mark of a "bigot", is it?

EG: Nice to know that there are RCs in your supporters' club in London. You'll be pleased to know there are a few Protestants in ours, whatever the f*ck that's got to do with anything.
The point was that certain other posters alleged that the NI team cannot appeal to both communities in NI. I merely pointed out from my own personal experience, that not only can it do so, but it actually does.
Moreover, as the message gets out about the reality of the experience, rather than the myth and the propaganda, that appeal is increasing.

[geysir]

BTW what do you imagine goes on at Linfield home games? They have changed completely too.
I heard that they were indeed a very lovely bunch of Blues supporters at the Brandywell game last night.
The Derry City forum is full of inspired prose describing their behaviour :rolleyes:

[paul_oshea]

and where an away fan was able to sit on his own in the midst of the home support, jump to his feet and cheer when McLoughlin scored, stay behind and listen on his radio to results from elsewhere, with the only adverse reaction being a couple of home fans saying "Jammy *******" on their way out.



Unfortunately, even if that is true, that wasn't the case for those fans who supported NI who were happy to see Mcloughlin score, I met a big cricket and rugby fan of Ireland, who was an NI fan primarily, but was happy to see AM score, when he cheered, he got kicked out and punched and spat at, and never returned to WP again, others on this site(know the person im talking about better than I do) can confim that same story. He also said he wasn't the only one on the night, and that was the last experience he ever had with NI.

[EalingGreen]

thats a bit silly then, whats his problem!
Though I see what you mean, Benno, it's not actually a problem, for him, his teammates or the crowd (including his family members in attendance).
Indeed, "Big Balls" is now one of the most popular players on the team and what he does or doesn't do during the anthems has no bearing on that whatever.

[Drumcondra 69er]

And of course FIFA and the authorities in NI should make exceptions for the ROI team. Who cares about e.g. the rights of the Danes etc?



Are you seriously comparing the visit of Denmark to play in Belfast a year previous during that campaign with the visit of the Republic or are you simply pretending to be that naive? Seriously, you undermine your more articulate points by placing them beside nonsense like that.

As for FIFA okaying it I wouldn't put much credence in that given their faffing about over the Balkan issue during the Euro 2000 qualifying campaign for example.

[paul_oshea]

I think EG meant in terms of the Denmark v Spain game, that it would have given us an unfair advantage had our game been moved outside of Windsor, rather than them playing in Windsor. At least I'd assume thats what he meant.

The point about comparing like for like, i.e. charlton with bingham is a bit patethic though in fairness, its like fighting over apples and oranges, no pun intended - im colour blind :D

[EalingGreen]

EG, Gather Round, please please accept that I have no desire or agenda to destroy or abolish the NI international team. My idea might be eccentic and impractical but it is sincere. As I mentioned i was brought up supporting NI and went to NI games before I ever went near an RoI game. Maybe that assurance will help you to deal with the suggestion on its merits rather than assuming that it is some sort of republican trojan horse (United Ireland football team by stealth). It's not a million miles away from the Shamrock Rovers v Brazil model, which of course was supported by Derek Dougan and a number of other NI playing legends.

I have no reason to doubt your sincerity, but I honestly feel you haven't the first idea of what NI fans actually think, or what motivates us.
Speaking for myself, other than the FAI's continuing attempts to "poach" NI-born players whom I feel should be ineligble, I have nothing whatever against the ROI team or its supporters. Indeed, as someone who was at Italia 90, including the ROI game against Romania, they generally have my goodwill.
But that is a million miles away from wishing to see the team which I have supported all my life, disappear into a merged team, whether that be a UI team or a UK one.
As far as I'm concerned, that simply isn't up for negotiation, and I wish those ROI supporters (and others who advocate it) would just accept that.
As for the 1973 game, I have no doubt that the Irish players were all delighted to get a rare (unique?) chance to play against the great Brazilian team of the era (along, no doubt, with the generous expenses and copious amounts of Guinness afterwards!).
But you are naive if you are unaware of the motives of the other key movers behind it.
For Louis Kilcoyne, this was a highly lucrative "payback" for his supporting Joao Havalange's successful campaign to succeed Sir Stanley Rous as President of FIFA. For Johnny Giles, it was a chance to raise his "managerial" profile to a wider audience. And for Derek Dougan, it was a chance for him to boost his ego, whilst delivering a snub to the IFA, with whom he had fallen out.
What it overlooks, however, is that there was no enthusiasm for the game that I recall amongst NI fans; moreover, not only was it opposed by the IFA, but according to Liam Tuohy, the FAI was none too keen, either, hence their being forced to call themselves a "Shamrock Rovers XI".
But don't let the facts get in the way of the dreamy-eyed romance, eh?

I honestly think you are deluded about the progress that has been made with respect to the atmosphere, ethos, iconography at NI games and what this says to nationalists. Sure the atmosphere at Windsor may be more "family friendly", but to the average nationalist watching a game on TV it's only the size of the crowd that distinguishes it from a Linfield home game. The current position is dangerously self-sustaining. It's one of those situations where people on the outside are better able to see what's wrong and believe me there is a lot wrong.

I dont doubt your sincerity and I agree with some of EG's suggestions about the need for a neutral anthem (add to that a neutral flag and a ban on flags which are clearly partisan and exclusive and you might be getting somewhere), but accept I am not advocating the abolition of the NI football team. I have too many fond memories of spain 82 to want to see that happen.
So you aren't prepared to accept our testimony. You're not prepared to accept that of the likes of UEFA, SARI, the NICRC, Brian Kerr or Neil Lennon. You're not even prepared to accept the account of an ROI fan, GSpain, when he tells you that the whole environment around watching NI has changed completely since the bad old days.
Instead, you prefer to get your information from the TV.
Fine.
Faced with such a mindset, there really isn't anything more I can add, except one thing, perhaps.
If I can get you a ticket for next Wednesday's game versus San Marino, will you come along and see for yourself?
After all, there is "More joy in Heaven etc etc etc..."

[EalingGreen]

The old, what about Charlton argument. What a load of blinkered immature tosh.

Hang on. It is OK for others to decry Bingham for whipping up the atmosphere, even though his actions were entirely legitimate, but we are meant to ignore the (unquestionably provocative) actions of the other manager, both inside and outside the stadium?
How is that "blinkered", "immature" or "tosh"?

Digging into your large bag of resentments again which you have stored some place on your computer to copy and paste whenever the opportunity arrives
Wtf? :rolleyes:

some sort of immature retort.

How is any of what I have posted "immature"?

Of course from your perspective everything was normal in NI at that time. It's normal to have a massacre in one place one week followed by a massacre in another place the next week.
When did I ever claim that the situation in Belfast at the time was "normal"? Care to quote me to that effect? As someone who lived in Belfast for over four years in the 1970's and 80's, I don't need you to tell me what things were like then, thank you very much.

Its normal to have machine gun police guarding team hotels, flanking team buses, flanking arrival of teams into the stadium.

Who are you talking about now? Greece v Turkey? Serbia v Croatia? Russia v Georgia? Or any of the many other flashpoint games which take place all the time?
At both the last two Continental games I attended (Riga and Bratislava), there were literally hundreds of police in attendance, many of them Riot/Political police, whose guns and body armour etc made Robocop look like a Boy Scout.


Ans apparantly to you, it's not normal for Charlton to want to take an 80 minute coach journey to avoid most of that security detail, but it must be part of a conspiracy to wind up Billy Bingham's team by acting the maggot.
That's not what I said at all. Following consultation with the local authorities, FIFA decided that the game could safely be held in Belfast. Charlton claimed it was too dangerous. FIFA were proved right and Charlton wrong.
FIFA also directed that the visiting team must stay in the home team's territory the night before the game. Charlton protested that they should be exempt from such a directive, claiming proximity and safety etc. Yet e.g. Vienna is as close to Bratislava as Carrickmacross to Belfast; plus the team's stay in a Belfast hotel was entirely peaceful.
Consequently, the only effect of Charlton's abortive and unjustifiable pleading was to further raise the atmosphere, not least since if granted, the effect would have been to deprive NI fans like myself of the opportunity of seeing our team play at home.
Not to mention the effect playing in a neutral country could have had on the ROI's chances of getting the result they needed to finish ahead of Denmark and so qualify...

P.S. Have you anything substantive to say on the issues, or do you prefer just to make crass, florid ad hominem attacks on me?

[gspain]

I heard that they were indeed a very lovely bunch of Blues supporters at the Brandywell game last night.
The Derry City forum is full of inspired prose describing their behaviour :rolleyes:

I don't know what happened at the Brandywell last night because I was down in bl%^dy Wexford at a match that never happened. :mad:

I wasn't aware of the trouble last night. Linfield have had issues with hooliganism at some games though. Previous Linfield v Derry games had gone off well apart from some local hoods outside the Brandywell who weren't at the game in question. The club have had actually made great strides to stamp out sectarian singing etc. They do have some way to go

I shouldn't have actually picked up on it here though as it could drag this topic down a rathole. I doubt if GR or EG are big Linfield fans given their avatars either.

Suffice to say though I brought my 7 and 4 yearold daughters to Linfield v Coleraine a couple of weeks ago (they haven't been naughty since :D) as we happened to be in the area.

[EalingGreen]

Unfortunately, even if that is true, that wasn't the case for those fans who supported NI who were happy to see Mcloughlin score, I met a big cricket and rugby fan of Ireland, who was an NI fan primarily, but was happy to see AM score, when he cheered, he got kicked out and punched and spat at, and never returned to WP again, others on this site(know the person im talking about better than I do) can confim that same story. He also said he wasn't the only one on the night, and that was the last experience he ever had with NI.
Leaving aside the unusual aspect of a "primarily" NI fan being unable to forbear from cheering when "his" team conceded a goal, I do not doubt your account. Nor do I condone or in any way defend the disgraceful treatment he had to endure, nor blame him in not wanting to go back.
But tell me this, if you were at a derby match in Dublin, Manchester, Glasgow or Cardiff and someone in the home end stood up and cheered when the home team conceded, would you be especially surprised if he received similar treatment? If not, why should Belfast be much different?
As I say, I don't in any way condone violence at football, or even the disgraceful chanting and singing from a section of the NI support at the game in question, even on the grounds that it was 15 years ago.
But I genuinely believe that we (NI fans) are being held to account to a higher standard of behaviour than other, comparable fans. Moreover, on this forum, at least, this is by fans of a team whose own, more recent record is by no means blemish-free. Or did I imagine a thread on this forum entitled "Today I felt ashamed to be Irish" (or somesuch)?
Which is not to say that I condemn the overwhelming majority of decent ROI fans for the occasional actions of a reprehensible minority - far from it.
But can't you see how I and others like me get thoroughly fed up at continuing to be tarred by same with the same old 1993/Neil Lennon/Night in November brush, when every reasonable and objective observer agrees that we have made huge and effective efforts to clean up our act in the years since?

[EalingGreen]

Are you seriously comparing the visit of Denmark to play in Belfast a year previous during that campaign with the visit of the Republic or are you simply pretending to be that naive?
"No" and "No"

As for FIFA okaying it I wouldn't put much credence in that given their faffing about over the Balkan issue during the Euro 2000 qualifying campaign for example.
FIFA said that it would be safe both to stage the game in Belfast and require the ROI team to travel up the evening before.
Charlton, who had a vested interest in getting the game moved to the Continent, demurred.
FIFA were proved correct, Charlton was proved wrong.
What did or didn't happen before Euro2000 has no bearing on what happened in Belfast in 1993.

[EalingGreen]

I think EG meant in terms of the Denmark v Spain game, that it would have given us an unfair advantage had our game been moved outside of Windsor, rather than them playing in Windsor. At least I'd assume thats what he meant.

Indeed.

The point about comparing like for like, i.e. charlton with bingham is a bit patethic though in fairness, its like fighting over apples and oranges, no pun intended - im colour blind :D
Imo, the actions of the two managers in relation to this game are entirely comparable.
Posters have criticised Bingham for stirring up the atmosphere. Yet they entirely ignore the greater such effect of Charlton, as he wriggled and fumed in an attempt to overturn directive by FIFA which apply to every team under its jurisdiction.
For example, I had to spend a considerable amount of money to travel back to NI for that game, along with quite a few other NI fans. How do you think we felt when we heard that Charlton was trying to get the game moved at the last minute, on the grounds that he knew better than e.g. the RUC, as to what was safe and what was not?
I have no doubt Charlton must be as big a hero of ROI fans as e.g. Bingham is in NI and I don't mind admitting I'd have loved to have had him as our manager in preference to several of the guys we did have down the years.
But be honest, for all his genial, Guinness-drinking, salmon-fishing "Give it a Lash" persona, Charlton was also someone who could "start a fight in an empty room" (as the saying goes).

But hey, Bingham is the "Bigoted Northern Prod" from Central Casting, whereas Big Jack is the "Honorary Oirishman", so there can be no mistaking the villain of this particular play, can there? :rolleyes:

[gspain]

Safety was a huge concern before the 1993 game. I think October 1993 was the worst month of the Troubles with Greysteel and Shankill being 2 high profile atrocities.

2 of my mates who had tickets pulled out after one had his father literally begging him not to go. This was more concerning visiting Northern Ireland as opposed to the game itself.

Those 2 tickets were offered around quite a bit and in the end were given away free if I recall correctly. Contrast that with our game v Spain in October 1993 when it was virtually impossible to get a ticket.

I still think the FAI shouldn't have made such a deal about moving the game but there were real concerns that our team could have been terrorist targets. It was probably al ot more dangerous than Tbilisi in 2008.

[geysir]

I don't know what happened at the Brandywell last night because I was down in bl%^dy Wexford at a match that never happened. :mad:

I wasn't aware of the trouble last night. Linfield have had issues with hooliganism at some games though. Previous Linfield v Derry games had gone off well apart from some local hoods outside the Brandywell who weren't at the game in question. The club have had actually made great strides to stamp out sectarian singing etc. They do have some way to go
If previous games have gone reasonable at Brandywell, ie no union jacks, no gstq, no Famine Songs, no Political songs, no constant attempts to wind up the Derry City fans in that crude way and no objects thrown against the home fans then it is curious why this behaviour has been reverted to.
I would have expected that Linfield would have distributed their allocation of tickets to their club members only.

[geysir]

Consequently, the only effect of Charlton's abortive and unjustifiable pleading was to further raise the atmosphere
So there was an atmosphere?:D
but it was Charltons fault? :eek:



P.S. Have you anything substantive to say on the issues
Why on earth would I want to be distracted on the lengthy whimsical drivel of what you consider to be debate?


or do you prefer just to make crass, florid ad hominem attacks on me?
When I do read some of your posts here, I have always directed my replies comments on the evidence of the content of your posts and your debating tactics, not on your person. Can you find one example of any attack on you despite even the severe provocation:rolleyes: of answering some of your most ridiculous irrational posts on the eligibility debate?

[EalingGreen]

So there was an atmosphere?:D
but it was Charltons fault?

Once again, I never said that. Rather, I contend that Charlton's actions contributed more to stoking up an already febrile atmosphere than those of Bingham. Yet Bingham gets the blame.

Why on earth would I want to be distracted on the lengthy whimsical drivel of what you consider to be debate?

I have no idea what this is meant to mean. It's not even grammatical.

When I do read some of your posts here, I have always directed my replies comments on the evidence of the content of your posts and your debating tactics, not on your person. Can you find one example of any attack on you despite even the severe provocation:rolleyes: of answering some of your most ridiculous irrational posts on the eligibility debate?
One example? On this thread you have described my posts as "blinkered, immature crap"; posted that I hold a "large bag of resentments", and make "immature retorts". When I asked you for one example of this "immaturity", you ignored it.
Instead, you misrepresent me e.g. by alleging I thought the situation in Belfast in 1993 was "normal", or that I am saying the atmosphere was (all) "Charlton's fault".
Further, you have avoided the points which I actually was making, such as that Charlton had a vested interest in getting the game moved to a neutral venue, or that the judgment of FIFA and the RUC over security should count for more than his.
Finally, you plead "severe provocation" (Eh?) over another thread entirely, as if that had anything to do with the topic in question.

Maybe you should just stick to the level of your opening "contribution" to this thread: "Billy B wouldn't be the first OWCer who creamed himself prematurely" (big smiley and all).
That's if my ribs don't pop entirely at your Wildean wit...:rolleyes:

[Den Perry]

and if we joined up would we have to drop AnbhF in favour of some s hite to appease the North like the IRFU did?

F uck that.

Ealing Green,I respect your posts and they always seem well thought out,but can I ask you a question? If Rep of Ireland were playing for example the World Cup Quarter (knockout stages) against say, France or Holland, who would you be cheering for?

I always remember Sapin '82 and our whole family watching the game against the host nation and rooting for NI(I was only 9 and remember waking my baby nephew who was asleep in his Moses basket)

Then, some years later an RTE news reporter visited a pub in loyalist Belfast prior to kick-off in the Holland-Ireland game to see if the locals were supporting us.

Were they f**** one guy I rem saying that as it was the 300th anniversary of Battle of Boyne he would be supporting Holland as it was queen Billy's country blah blah blah...Now it gives me great pleasure whenever Northern Ireland are beaten...oh and that lad that was a baby in '82 grew up and played in Milk Cup when he was 16/17 and got vile abuse for being a "fenian b astard"...Like me he loves to see Norn Iron get shafted

[third policeman]

[quote=EalingGreen;1035217]So you aren't prepared to accept our testimony. You're not prepared to accept that of the likes of UEFA, SARI, the NICRC, Brian Kerr or Neil Lennon. You're not even prepared to accept the account of an ROI fan, GSpain, when he tells you that the whole environment around watching NI has changed completely since the bad old days.
Instead, you prefer to get your information from the TV.



Actually I get my info from a journo friend who is a die hard NI fan who goes to Windsor and all the away trips. I actually touched base with him earlier and ran passed him some of the sentiments expressed by yourself and others about the extent of the improvement and the level of cross community support for NI. His assessment (and he is a Protestant if that has any relevance).

"Things have improved at Windsor over recent years. There is still an element who indulge in sectarian chanting, but to be fair they are often booed down by other fans. I dont think mant Catholics go to watch games at Windsor. It's partly because of the history of the place."

"On the away trips I would say the support is 100% Protestant. There is more blatent sectarianism amongst the fans and a lot of abuse directed at 'the beggars' (RoI supporters). I wouldn't say that Catholic supporters would find it a very welcoming atmosphere."

Sounds to me that there is still a way to go. I am also confused by your willingness to tolerate Northerners supporting the RoI, so long as they dont want to play for it (Darren Gibson).

[third policeman]

PS EG

Cant make it this Wednesday, but if you are serious I will come to an NI game at some point in this campaign.

[co. down green]

the FAI's continuing attempts to "poach" NI-born players whom I feel should be ineligble"

Thanks to Nigel Worthington and Howard Wells for sorting that issue with FIFA for us and great to see new young lads from the North like Patrick McAleney, David McDaid and Seamus Sharkey all playing for Ireland at u19 level in recent months.

Perhaps you should have a word with your boss Nigel Worthington about "poaching".

Northern Ireland boss Nigel Worthington is hoping to swipe the services of Hull City striker Caleb Folan from under the noses of the Republic of Ireland.

Leeds-born Folan qualifies for Ireland through the grandparents ruling and has so far given his allegiance to Giovanni Trapattoni.

Folan has revealed he was forced to change his mobile phone number after pressure to play for Northern Ireland.

“Nigel rang me and I told him I wanted to play for the Republic,” said Folan.

Worthington said “ I spoke to Caleb to check out his eligibility and see where his loyalties lie, he was adamant that he wanted to stay with the Republic, but I told him if he changed his mind, he should call me. The ball is in Caleb’s court”

And then there was Leon Best (http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_3135052,00.html) and the fiasco of the North naming Alex Bruce (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_/ai_n16186537) for a NI U21 game even though he never declared his willingness to play for your team.

[EalingGreen]

and if we joined up would we have to drop AnbhF in favour of some s hite to appease the North like the IRFU did?

F uck that.

So what are you suggesting? That a side representing the two jurisdictions should stand for The Soldiers Song only, or for the SS and GSTQ? The former arrangement would not be acceptable to NI fans and I guess there might be difficulty selling the latter to ROI fans, at least for games played in Dublin. Games played in Belfast would be a different matter, I'd say.
[By the way, my above question was rhetorical. I don't actually want an answer, not least through not wanting to see this thread degenerate and get locked]

Ealing Green,I respect your posts and they always seem well thought out,but can I ask you a question? If Rep of Ireland were playing for example the World Cup Quarter (knockout stages) against say, France or Holland, who would you be cheering for?

Had you asked me that question a few years ago, I'd happily have said ROI. For instance at Italia 90, after Scotland got knocked out and my two Jock mates went home early (no surprise there, then!), I stayed on and managed to get a ticket for the Romania game. I was pleased for the team and the fans I knocked about with. By contrast, when I went to Bologna to watch England v Belgium, I was somewhat put off by the scummy element to their support at the time.
Anyhow, since the FAI unilaterally tore up the Gentleman's Agreement with the IFA not to pick players from each others territory, I now have no affinity to the ROI team. I'm not saying I actively want to see them beaten, but I'm not bothered when they lose. Indeed, when sitting in an Irish bar in Copenhagen a couple of years back, severely hungover after a hard-fought draw, I laughed as loudly as anyone when the TV showed the goals from the Cyprus v ROI game. (Curiously enough, none of the Bar Staff saw the funny side as we all sang "One Team in Ireland")

I always remember Sapin '82 and our whole family watching the game against the host nation and rooting for NI(I was only 9 and remember waking my baby nephew who was asleep in his Moses basket)


Fine. Anything else you want me to say?

Then, some years later an RTE news reporter visited a pub in loyalist Belfast prior to kick-off in the Holland-Ireland game to see if the locals were supporting us.

Were they f**** one guy I rem saying that as it was the 300th anniversary of Battle of Boyne he would be supporting Holland as it was queen Billy's country blah blah blah...Now it gives me great pleasure whenever Northern Ireland are beaten...
Right, so let me get this straight. An RTE reporter was sent out to get some "local flavour" in Belfast. Does he go to a City Centre Bar? No. A bar in Nationalist West Belfast? No. Maybe out in the direction of nice, leafy Malone Road. The Eg or the Bot, say? No.
He goes to a Loyalist Pub in the Shankill (or wherever). And what reception does he get? Well f uck my old boots! What a surprise! He gets told the ROI can eff off!
And not only does that still rankle with you 18 years later(!), but you appear to use that as an excuse to go from supporting NI to hating them. Congratulations - a very rounded and circumspect response, if I may say so.

oh and that lad that was a baby in '82 grew up and played in Milk Cup when he was 16/17 and got vile abuse for being a "fenian b astard"...Like me he loves to see Norn Iron get shafted
I can only regret that this happened to him, and also that some so-called Loyalist might have been depriving NI of a future international, for all he knew.
Anyhow, at least it could be argued that the lad in question has a legitimate excuse for not following NI. Shame, really, especially since if he could be persuaded to give us another chance and actually attend a game, he would see that he could do so without fear of being similarly abused these days.

[co. down green]

As for the 1973 game, I have no doubt that the Irish players were all delighted to get a rare (unique?) chance to play against the great Brazilian team of the era (along, no doubt, with the generous expenses and copious amounts of Guinness afterwards!).",

Not sure if the players from the North were influenced or delighted by their participation in the game back in 1973, but all have since declared their support for an all Ireland team – Martin O’Neill (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7324995.stm), Brian Hamilton (http://breaking.tcm.ie/sport/mhojgbeymhkf/), Derek Dougan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Dougan) & Pat Jennings (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7324995.stm). And not forgetting George Best’s (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/4374631.stm) support for an all Ireland team.

Also worth remembering that one of the reasons why Neil Lennon was singled out for sectarian abuse by the North’s support during the infamous game against Norway was because he had openly declared his support for an all Ireland team in an interview a few days earlier.

In his Biography Lennon talks of his regrets at not being picked to represent Ireland:

I would love to have had the chance to play for the Republic at Lansdowne Road, it would have been great, but it never became an issue I had to think about, Jack Charlton was the Ireland manager at the time, but he never made any approaches to me. By the time people were asking me whether I wished I was playing for the Republic it was too late. Still, I don't sit back now and think about what might have been. To me, playing for Celtic is just as good as pulling on the Republic shirt and that fact that I'm captaining this club to trophies and winning games in the Champions League means I can have no regrets.


EG, what’s it like knowing that most of your former great players would be happy to see an end to your team?