Another Nordie thread

[Docboy]

I am happy that on the night, our team/manager wanted to win a football match, for the right reasons and in the right manner, with my greatest (footballing) regret being that we didn't quite manage it.

Que Sera Sera...

Well just got around to reading this post, think everyone will have to agree to disagree on this one. But Ealing Green are you seriously saying that your biggest footballing regret is that you didn't stop us from qualifying for USA 94? That's a bit more than mere sporting rivalry no?

[gspain]

Well just got around to reading this post, think everyone will have to agree to disagree on this one. But Ealing Green are you seriously saying that your biggest footballing regret is that you didn't stop us from qualifying for USA 94? That's a bit more than mere sporting rivalry no?

So if we draw England in the qualifers for Euro2012. We win the group early. They come to Lansdowne needing a draw to qualify as runners up otherwise Romania (lets say) go through do you think we'd be indifferent as to the result? Lansdowne would be rocking if we beat them.

[NeilMcD]

Yeah well said, Its rivalry and nothing wrong with it as long as it does not go overboard.

[seanfhear]

Originally Posted by EalingGreen http://foot.ie/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://foot.ie/showthread.php?p=1034488#post1034488)

I am happy that on the night, our team/manager wanted to win a football match, for the right reasons and in the right manner, with my greatest (footballing) regret being that we didn't quite manage it


I wonder were you as happy and proud when in 1985 Nothern Ireland and England arranged(played would not be the right word) a nil;nil draw at Wembley so that Nothern Ireland could go to Mexico86.

With reguard to the Ireland v Northern Ireland match the right result was achieved in the end so maybe the players were more relaxed about the result than the supporters of either side.

[geysir]

So if we draw England in the qualifers for Euro2012. We win the group early. They come to Lansdowne needing a draw to qualify as runners up otherwise Romania (lets say) go through do you think we'd be indifferent as to the result? Lansdowne would be rocking if we beat them.

Gspain,you missed Docboys point,
Lansdowne road would be rocking for any game where are beating the English but it would be a 100 miles from a greatest football regret that they get a gammy draw in a tense game and qualify.

[Gather round]

Well just got around to reading this post, think everyone will have to agree to disagree on this one. But Ealing Green are you seriously saying that your biggest footballing regret is that you didn't stop us from qualifying for USA 94? That's a bit more than mere sporting rivalry no?

Er...I think he means his biggest regret in that game. Not in his entire football-watching life, like :)


I wonder were you as happy and proud when in 1985 Nothern Ireland and England arranged(played would not be the right word) a nil;nil draw at Wembley so that Nothern Ireland could go to Mexico86

Are you one of the Romanian Sean Fhears then [don't write in- I know what it means]. Incidentally, the Swedes also gurned when we allegedly co-operated with the Scots to knock them out of WC 1982. Top tip- before whining about non-existent countries diddling ye out of a place in the sun, it's probably best not to lose to them home and away...

In the 1985, we set out negatively for a draw and got it. They wanted to win 4-0 or 5-0 and didn't. Life's tough.

PS apologies for namedropping- especially after chiding 3rd garda for it- but I was talking to Newstalk 106 hack Ken Early about this recently. He said that RTE's ad rates (and thus, presumably the expected audience) for England games not involving your team are higher than for anyone else Worldwide, including Brazil and Argentina. Which suggests that far from being obsessed by the problems of their neighbours, a significant proportion of RoI fans/ viewers are quite pleased to cheer them on?

PPS I'll post up a brief video clip of our fans' sing-song in the North Tribune in Maribor. My camera films in 'Quick Time' Mac program, but when I try to upload/ convert, it either loses most of the content (youtube) or is v. poor quality (Windows .wmv file). Any tips, and with apologies for the tangent? The file is about 4 minutes and 80 MB btw. Ta in advance.

[geysir]

PPS I'll post up a brief video clip of our fans' sing-song in the North Tribune in Maribor. Overly concerned about NI fans goody goody image? I´d be more concerned about the result:rolleyes:


My camera films in 'Quick Time' Mac program, but when I try to upload/ convert, it either loses most of the content (youtube) or is v. poor quality (Windows .wmv file). Any tips, and with apologies for the tangent? The file is about 4 minutes and 80 MB btw. Ta in advance.
I use Handbrake when converting video file formats on a Mac.
But 4 minutes 80mb size of camera quality video will look poor if shrunk.

[third policeman]

Aye, I'd agree it was harmless and a laugh with maybe some self-parody thrown in.

It's hardly strange that Scottish and Welsh fans don't sing it. They're less appreciative of irony than we are :)



GR I think this is the problem with NI supporters. You may regard it as harmless and the motive may indeed have been self-parody (but i am not sure it was), but would the same fans have derived the same sense of harmless fun from singing "A Nation Once Again."I suspect not. It's great that the IFA are stamping out blatently sectarian chants, and the grass roots stuff is also commendable, but you need to go further to change the fundamental ethos of unionism that surrounds the team.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Er...I think he means his biggest regret in that game. Not in his entire football-watching life, like :)

PS apologies for namedropping- especially after chiding 3rd garda for it- but I was talking to Newstalk 106 hack Ken Early about this recently. He said that RTE's ad rates (and thus, presumably the expected audience) for England games not involving your team are higher than for anyone else Worldwide, including Brazil and Argentina. Which suggests that far from being obsessed by the problems of their neighbours, a significant proportion of RoI fans/ viewers are quite pleased to cheer them on?




To be frank your first point is ********, you honestly think that by saying 'with my greatest (footballing) regret being that we didn't quite manage it' he was talking about his biggest regret in that one game? Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever, how many regrets per game do you guys have?

As to your second point I'd say that the vast majority of people watching England in Ireland are watching them to cheer on the opposition, just because there are high viewing figures in no way correlates to there being high support for England in major championships, people watch to see them fukk up. For right or wrong that's a fact, watch England play in any pub in Ireland and see the cheers that go up when the opposition score. I was chatting to a few English lads during the England match last Saturday and had a good bit of banter with them over it, all good natured but it still took them a while to get why we weren't cheering them on (as they always cheer us on apparantly). Told them I'd watched Germany play Costa Rica during World Cup 2006 and every Englishman in the pub was cheering on Costa Rica and used that comparison and they understood. But it's only football banter at the end of the day.

As for Ken Early, the man talsk more sh1te then any broadcaster I know so I wouldn't put great stock in anything he says, he's an embarrassment on the radio.

[seanfhear]

Originally posted by Gather Round

In the 1985, we set out negatively for a draw and got it. They wanted to win 4-0 or 5-0 and didn't. Life's tough

This game was played in the style of the infamous Germany/Austria world cup tournament game e.g. the right result(?) was achieved for both sides.
Its amazing what one misses when supporting your own team.
Funny after all the controversy on the infamous night in Windsor park the players achieved(?)the right result.
I had not realized that the Scots had helped you to qualify in 1982 but as you may know that they gifted us entry to Euro88 with a fabulous performance in sofia.

[paul_oshea]

This game was played in the style of the infamous Germany/Austria world cup tournament game e.g. the right result(?) was achieved for both sides.
Its amazing what one misses when supporting your own team.
Funny after all the controversy on the infamous night in Windsor park the players achieved(?)the right result.
I had not realized that the Scots had helped you to qualify in 1982 but as you may know that they gifted us entry to Euro88 with a fabulous performance in sofia.

seanfhear not sure i fully understand what you are saying in your 3rd sentence, but if you are saying what i think you are way off. Ireland just about got there relying on other results, you can hardly say thats what they wanted to "acheieve"......

[Gather round]

Overly concerned about NI fans goody goody image? I´d be more concerned about the result

I use Handbrake when converting video file formats on a Mac.But 4 minutes 80mb size of camera quality video will look poor if shrunk

No, I'm relaxed and quite welcoming of any goody-goody image we have (or don't). There is an increasing number of older fans, women and kids going to the away games now. As well as the C*th*lics that 3rd Garda's thinks are entirely absent.

Thanks for the technical tips. I'll remember to split longer files generally


would the same fans have derived the same sense of harmless fun from singing "A Nation Once Again"

No idea. I've never heard any of them singing it.


you need to go further to change the fundamental ethos of unionism that surrounds the team

Disagree. Don't have one, ergo don't need to change it. If I (and hundreds of others) want a unionist sing-along, we really don't need to travel 1500km through the night to do it. There's a number 4 bus to Stormont every few minutes.


Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever, how many regrets per game do you guys have?

Oh, regrets aplenty. You seen our defence?

No doubt EG will be along presently to explain. I stand to be corrected if necessary.


As to your second point I'd say that the vast majority of people watching England in Ireland are watching them to cheer on the opposition, just because there are high viewing figures in no way correlates to there being high support for England in major championships, people watch to see them fukk up. For right or wrong that's a fact

You may well be right that it's a majority. I doubt it's 100%, but sad that so many thousands of football-loving Irishmen go to the trouble and cost for some team they're not even playing.

Point taken about it being only banter, but Ken Early's a sensitive lad. I'll warn him to be careful around D9.


This game was played in the style of the infamous Germany/Austria world cup tournament game e.g. the right result(?) was achieved for both sides. Its amazing what one misses when supporting your own team

I think not. The Romanians protested half-heartedly; we replied as I've suggested; no-one else in Europe was particularly bothered (as distinct from the Austria game in WC 1982, or you could have mentioned Peru-Argentina in 1978).

[gspain]

This game was played in the style of the infamous Germany/Austria world cup tournament game e.g. the right result(?) was achieved for both sides.
Its amazing what one misses when supporting your own team.
Funny after all the controversy on the infamous night in Windsor park the players achieved(?)the right result.
I had not realized that the Scots had helped you to qualify in 1982 but as you may know that they gifted us entry to Euro88 with a fabulous performance in sofia.

The game was shown live on RTE AFAIK. The above comment is a deep insult to Pat Jennings in particular who made some great saves that night.
I remember watching it on tv and it was tight right until the end. I think Dixon had a great late chance. NI also beat Romania home and away in that campaign.

I agree the Romanians think it was fixed but many Danes also think the 1993 game was fixed. I guess they haven't seen the play. :D
I had an argument with a Danish fan on this issue 2 years ago in Germany.

[Gather round]

The game was shown live on RTE AFAIK. The above comment is a deep insult to Pat Jennings in particular who made some great saves that night.
I remember watching it on tv and it was tight right until the end. I think Dixon had a great late chance. NI also beat Romania home and away in that campaign.

I agree the Romanians think it was fixed but many Danes also think the 1993 game was fixed. I guess they haven't seen the play. :D
I had an argument with a Danish fan on this issue 2 years ago in Germany.

Dixon missed three greaty chances as I remember. Apart from the double in the friendly against Germany (the Germans were jet-lagged straight off a night flight), did he really look the part in international football?*

A large number of England fans sang "it's a fix". But hey, we saw only this weekend how hard to please they are- booing when three or four up :)

Closer to the present, weren't Denmark, Sweden and Italy involved in a Eurovision-voting type row at Euro 2004?

* GSpain and I are both, er veteran Chelsea fans ;)

[geysir]

Maybe November 1993 in WP was a fix, with a good alibi. I'd keep an open mind on that one.

Whereas we all know Pat Jennings could have made those saves blindfolded at Wembley.

[paul_oshea]

Maybe November 1993 in WP was a fix, with a good alibi. I'd keep an open mind on that one.

Whereas we all know Pat Jennings could have made those saves blindfolded at Wembley.

why would ye keep an open mind, of course it wasn't we needed to win that game, only a peach saved us.

[geysir]

Do you use 'ye' when referring to the singular 'you'?

[paul_oshea]

I use 'you' when you use 'ye' ;)

"ye" is generally the plural 'you' as in the dubs say "yous lot", is covered by the term "ye", pronounced yeeee, the term "ye" for singular 'you' is used but is pronounced "yeh", subtle but very important difference. Its all down to how you say the sentence as opposed to reading it. :)

[seanfhear]

If any of us were supporting the teams relying on genuine competitive games in any or all of the games mentioned earlier I think that we would notice that though these games were supposedly competitive the result worked out that the teams that needed a certain result always got the result.Funny how it happened everytime especially with all of the players involved mostly playing in the same league in England.

[Gather round]

Funny how it happened everytime especially with all of the players involved mostly playing in the same league in England.

Aye, hilarious. They're all one big happy family in the same league in England.

[gspain]

If any of us were supporting the teams relying on genuine competitive games in any or all of the games mentioned earlier I think that we would notice that though these games were supposedly competitive the result worked out that the teams that needed a certain result always got the result.Funny how it happened everytime especially with all of the players involved mostly playing in the same league in England.

As in November 1993. :confused:

Ironically a year later we beat NI 4-0 at Windsor Park in a key qualifier for both of us. Had the scores been reversed and we'd won 4-0 in Nov 93 it would have aroused suspicion.

[seanfhear]

Aye, hilarious. They're all one big happy family in the same league in England.
If your team or my team had been the one to lose out we would have thought that they were very cosy together cosidering in the three matches the cosy friends always managed to get the team qualified.

If we are honest and our team did not qualify because of these matches we would be very suspicious.

[Gather round]

If your team or my team had been the one to lose out we would have thought that they were very cosy together cosidering in the three matches the cosy friends always managed to get the team qualified.

If we are honest and our team did not qualify because of these matches we would be very suspicious.

Sean, drop the wind up. Your team and my team didn't lose out; Sweden and Romania lost out in 1982 and 1986 because they lost home and away to Scotland and us; our games against Scotland and England back then were aggressive and edgy; Sweden and Denmark kicked lumps from each other in what you seem to think was the equivalent game in Euro 2004. The Italians then, and the others earlier, made only a half-hearted protest. They realised their own poor form explained non-progress. There's no story.

[seanfhear]

Sean, drop the wind up. Your team and my team didn't lose out; Sweden and Romania lost out in 1982 and 1986 because they lost home and away to Scotland and us; our games against Scotland and England back then were aggressive and edgy; Sweden and Denmark kicked lumps from each other in what you seem to think was the equivalent game in Euro 2004. The Italians then, and the others earlier, made only a half-hearted protest. They realised their own poor form explained non-progress. There's no story.

I am been a "little" serious in that when these results go our way we say that every thing is fine and dandy and if the reults in this type of game went against us we would be spitting feathers.
If we are honest we are all hypocrites.

[EalingGreen]

But Ealing Green are you seriously saying that your biggest footballing regret is that you didn't stop us from qualifying for USA 94? That's a bit more than mere sporting rivalry no?

No. My biggest regret on the footballing front from that night was that we didn't win, to restore a wee bit of pride after being humped 3-0 in Dublin previously.

As regards the NI team generally, I have a thousand greater regrets, not least not deciding just to shove my Degree, beg, steal or borrow some money and just go out to Spain for the 1982 World Cup Finals anyhow.

(Btw, I specified footballing regrets to distinguish them from the non-footballing regrets which I also have from that match, such as the crowd misbehaviour and subsequent over-reaction, as well as that bloody Jones play etc)

[kingdomkerry]

You might as well have shoved your degree because IMO you will never again see the loyalist team in the World Cup finals.

[EalingGreen]

I wonder were you as happy and proud when in 1985 Nothern Ireland and England arranged(played would not be the right word) a nil;nil draw at Wembley so that Nothern Ireland could go to Mexico86.

I was at the Wembley game in 1985. Anyone who professes to know anything about football and believes it was some sort of "fix" is an idiot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG97E9gJ5LM
From the above, see Big Pat's save from a "Hoddle Special" (8 mins 10 secs), or from Kerry Dixon (9 mins. 03 secs), or Martin O'Neill's comments (9 mins 09 secs). They could even have a word with Alan McDonald (9 mins. 25 secs)...

With reguard to the Ireland v Northern Ireland match the right result was achieved in the end so maybe the players were more relaxed about the result than the supporters of either side.
I was at the NI vs ROI match as well. Anyone who professes to know anything about football and who believes the NI players weren't totally up for that one as well is still an idiot.

[EalingGreen]

but you need to go further to change the fundamental ethos of unionism that surrounds the team.
And what would be the marks of that "fundamental ethos", then?

The Green shirts? The Celtic Cross on the badge? The name "Northern Ireland"? Sea of Green? Football For All? Players, management and supporters from the Nationalist community?

"Amarillo" maybe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0da68p5fPbQ&feature=related
"Sweet Norn Iron"?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ndZ_gTdIeVo&feature=related
The Bouncy, perhaps?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hrXmBHH2YCQ&feature=related
Or perhaps you mean this bunch, from the Warsaw Branch of the DUP?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJSfmQHW-Dg&feature=related

[EalingGreen]

Funny how it happened everytime especially with all of the players involved mostly playing in the same league in England.
Aye, and when players go back to their clubs after being away with their respective countries, they don't take the p1ss out of each other if something goes wrong?
Try telling that to Chris Iwelumo:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RqkShPKgAbw
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/w/wolverhampton_wanderers/7676674.stm

Or have you never heard the story of Denis Law on the day of the World Cup final in 1966? Apparently he played golf on the afternoon of the game. His round wasn't a good one. When he got back to the clubhouse, someone told him England had won 4-2. "That's all I fcuking needed", he said, as he threw his clubs into the corner.

Remind me again what league Denis was playing in at the time? :rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

You might as well have shoved your degree because IMO you will never again see the loyalist team in the World Cup finals.

And what degree do you possess, then? It wouldn't be Politics, Philosophy and Economics, by any chance? :rolleyes:

[kingdomkerry]

And what degree do you posses, then? It wouldn't be Politics, Philosophy and Economics, by any chance? :rolleyes:

No. Human Resource Mgt degree and Hdip in Accounting and Finance actually. Why do you ask?

[EalingGreen]

No. Human Resource Mgt degree and Hdip in Accounting and Finance actually. Why do you ask?

Because your views on such matters are invariably coloured by your politics.

Here's another question: Have you ever been to an NI match? Indeed, have you ever been to NI itself?

[seanfhear]

just out of curiosity has any of the home nations knocked another home nation out or the republic of Ireland for that matter when the result did not matter to the team that did not need a result

I cant recall this ever having happened.

Funny that!!

[third policeman]

[quote=EalingGreen;1042951]And what would be the marks of that "fundamental ethos", then?

It seems strange to me that if the majority of voters on OWC want a replacement anthem for GSTQ that they actualy sing this along with "Rule Brittania" during your games. I could see only one green banner being displayed by NI supporters during the Slovenia game but plenty of Union Flags and Red Hand of Ulster emblems (many bearing explicitly unionist slogans). In fact your supporters behave very much like the alleged (but totally unsubstantiated) behaviour of the Irish junior teams who were subjected to violent sectarion abuse by loyalist hooligans. To quote your good self;

"Some of them hung Tricolours out their windows one evening and may even have sung some "party tunes". Now whilst such behaviour ought to be tolerable enough, they were naive (imo) for not realising that this might cause a row with their neighbours."

I would respectfully suggest that you are guilty of much greater naivity if you think that the behaviour of your supporters is in any way welcoming and inclusive. Never mind the grass roots initiatives, if you are in any way serious about attracting more nationalists to the NI team, get yourselves a neutral flag, a neutral anthem and enforce a ban on any emblems, flag, chants and songs that are explicitly partisan. If that is beyond you then maybe we should have an All Ireland team with neutral flag and anthem as the only means of banishing divisive and sectarian posturing at what should be sporting events.

[EalingGreen]

just out of curiosity has any of the home nations knocked another home nation out or the republic of Ireland for that matter when the result did not matter to the team that did not need a result

The answer to your question is "No".

I cant recall this ever having happened.

Funny that!!
Such a situation has never arisen, due to the fact that teams from the 5 "home" nations have only been drawn together on rare occasions. Moreover, most qualifying Groups have only had five or four, even three, teams, with only one qualifying. So that the chance for one already qualified team either to go easy on, or go all out against, a team hoping to qualify in second place has simply never happened.

Therefore it's not "funny", it's probability, if not certainty.

Anyhow, if you really believe England and NI concocted a draw in 1985, after England had won in Belfast a year previously, thereby meaning NI were going to have to win home and away against Romania in order to qualify in second position, then you're in the wrong place.

You really would be better suited looking for the final proof that Prince Philip murdered Princess Diana with the CIA gun the Mafia used to kill JFK, before making his getaway on Shergar, disguised as Elvis...:eek:

[soccerc]

Prince Philip murdered Princess Diana with the CIA gun the Mafia used to kill JFK, before making his getaway on Shergar, disguised as Elvis...:eek:

Can't be true, Shergar was shot within 24 hours of being horseknapped :D

[EalingGreen]

It seems strange to me that if the majority of voters on OWC want a replacement anthem for GSTQ
There's no "if" about it. A clear majority 2:1 of voters in two well-subscribed polls indicated they wanted GSTQ to be replaced by a uniquely NI anthem, even before knowing what such a replacement might be.

that they actualy sing this along with "Rule Brittania" during your games.
"They" don't sing RB at [every] match. The only games I've attended where it has been been sung recently has been against Wales and Scotland, as a p1ss-take following their anti-British/NI booing and singing. It certainly wasn't sung at recent the games against Georgia, Slovakia and San Marino which I attended. It may have been sung at the Slovenia game (I was in the USA), but I've no idea why. Nor do I know by how many.
If you know anything about football, you'll know that it is exceedingly rare for a whole crowd, or even a big majority, to join in in singing any particular song. Therefore it is not possible to ascribe a particular view to "the fans" of a team, as a consequence of a section of their support behaving in a particular manner.
After all, if we were all to draw such conclusions, we might imagine that all ROI fans are sectarian (booing Holland's Rangers players), or anti-semitic (abusing Israel's players and supporters) or anti-British ("Sit down, if you hate the Brits" in Germany).
And that's before we get to certain fans adding "Up the Ra" when the Fields of Athenry is sung...

I could see only one green banner being displayed by NI supporters during the Slovenia game but plenty of Union Flags and Red Hand of Ulster emblems (many bearing explicitly unionist slogans).
Aye right. You sat with your remote on freeze frame, counting flags. I wasn't in Slovenia, but my experience of following NI home and away is that the great majority of fans wave either NI flags or Green & White or IFA flags. A minority wave Union flags, and if anything, this minority is decreasing.
As for "explicitly unionist slogans", I have no idea what the Hell you mean.:confused:

In fact your supporters behave very much like the alleged (but totally unsubstantiated) behaviour of the Irish junior teams who were subjected to violent sectarion abuse by loyalist hooligans. To quote your good self;

"Some of them hung Tricolours out their windows one evening and may even have sung some "party tunes". Now whilst such behaviour ought to be tolerable enough, they were naive (imo) for not realising that this might cause a row with their neighbours."

I would respectfully suggest that you are guilty of much greater naivity if you think that the behaviour of your supporters is in any way welcoming and inclusive. Never mind the grass roots initiatives, if you are in any way serious about attracting more nationalists to the NI team, get yourselves a neutral flag, a neutral anthem and enforce a ban on any emblems, flag, chants and songs that are explicitly partisan. If that is beyond you then maybe we should have an All Ireland team with neutral flag and anthem as the only means of banishing divisive and sectarian posturing at what should be sporting events.
I don't know whether you do not read properly what I post, or do not understand it, or merely see my name at the top and automatically assume the worst.
But I will try one more time to explain what I posted on that topic.
Bennocelt asked what had happened in Coleraine. As briefly as possible, I explained that some young footballers were abused and assailed in their accommodation by a loyalist mob from the housing estate next to where they were staying.
This was late at night, miles from the venues where the tournament was being staged and some time after play had ceased for the evening. Moreover, the players in question were actually inside their accommodation at the time. Therefore, not only had this nothing to do with the Milk Cup tournament itself (that was merely the pretext for their being in Coleraine), but their would-be attackers probably wouldn't even have known they were there, had they not drawn attention to themselves.
Which was the sole reason I mentioned their hanging out flags and possibly singing party tunes, for which my evidence was a post on a Shamrock Rovers website that same night by a Shams youngster who says he was at the tournament with his team.
I did NOT mention it in order in some way to "blame" the Cherry Orchard lads for the attack - I explicitly stated their behaviour ought to have been "tolerable enough" - nor did I seek in any way to exonerate or defend their assailants, who I described as "scum" etc.

I would respectfully suggest that you are guilty of much greater naivity if you think that the behaviour of your supporters is in any way welcoming and inclusive.
If you were truly "respectful", you would not blatantly contradict someone who has been attending NI matches for decades, when he describes what goes on at NI games, when you yourself clearly haven't been at an NI match in years (if ever).

Never mind the grass roots initiatives,
Why ignore such initiatives? Because they inconveniently contradict your whole argument? Instead of being so dismissive, you might actually care to educate yourself about the myriad initiatives which the IFA conducts every day of the week, in every part of NI. And to determine their value, you need only Google "SARI", "Brian Kerr" and "IFA", to see what you come up with.

if you are in any way serious about attracting more nationalists to the NI team, get yurselves a neutral flag
If the poitcians in NI can agree on a new flag for NI, then I would happily accept that being used at our games.
In the meantime, however, despite the official flag of NI actually being the Union Jack, we do not fly that. Rather, we fly the existing [I]Northern Ireland flag - it matches the name of our team, after all.
And why should we fly a "neutral" flag? The FAI considers that it can select anyone born anywhere in Ireland, including NI. Will they fly a "neutral" flag instead of the Tricolour, so as to make themselves attractive to those one million Irish people who do not recognise it as their own?
After all, if you are going to tell me what we should do, it would only be fair if I'm allowed to tell you what you might do...

a neutral anthem
As I have said before many times, I would much prefer a new anthem to replace GSTQ. But this is because I believe an NI team should have an NI anthem, not due to some spurious notion of "neutrality". Why should we, alone of FIFA's 200+ nations, have to have a "neutral" anthem?
As with the Tricolour, would you accept the ROI also adopting a "neutral" anthem to replace the Soldiers Song, since its lyrics and sentiments clearly alienate the million Irish people I mentioned above?
Or are you not prepared to change your flag and anthem because you don't actually give a damn about us, and so don't wish to "attract" or "include" us?

and enforce a ban on any emblems, flag, chants and songs that are explicitly partisan.
UEFA and FIFA monitor every competitive match we play. Not only are they satisfied with the organisation of our games and behaviour of our supporters, but they have actually commended us in this respect.
But it is clear that you are not prepared to accept my first-hand testimony;
will you accept the eye-witness account of Gary Spain, when he posted the following?
"I been to 2 NI home games in recent years - Azerbaijan 05 and Spain 06. The atmosphere was superb even for Azerbaijan.
The sectarian chants and songs from 1993 (Billy Boys, Sash, FTP) etc are gone .
The other thing that has changed completely is the colour. Many did not wear colours in the late 80's/early 90's and those that did wore red/white and blue. Now virtually everyone is in green.
GSTQ is played beforehand but if it is really that offensive to stand for it you can always disappear to the toilet for a couple of minutes or arrive late."
After all, he did post it in direct response to one of your own posts, on this very thread.
Or do you know better than him, too?

If that is beyond you then maybe we should have an All Ireland team with neutral flag and anthem as the only means of banishing divisive and sectarian posturing at what should be sporting events.
No need for an All Ireland team (or a more logical all-United Kingdom, for that matter).
Instead, what we need is for people to approach this whole difficult subject in an informed and open-minded manner, without the confinement of any pre-conceived ideas.
On which point, you indicated earlier you may be able to get tickets for NI games. There's one at home to Hungary in November. Why don't you go to that match and see for yourself, instead of sniping from the sidelines from a position of ignorance?

[ifk101]

The FAI considers that it can select anyone born anywhere in Ireland, including NI.

Considers? :D

EG - the onus is on the IFA to make the NI football team more accessible for everyone in NI as a large minority of the population does not identify with the team. Whether this means adopting a neutral flag/ a neutral anthem/ neutral party tunes/ neutral tolerable behaviour it's up to you wee lassies to sort out.

What this has to do with the country of Ireland, it's flag, it's national anthem and it's football team is beyond me :confused:

[seanfhear]

The answer to your question is "No".

Such a situation has never arisen, due to the fact that teams from the 5 "home" nations have only been drawn together on rare occasions. Moreover, most qualifying Groups have only had five or four, even three, teams, with only one qualifying. So that the chance for one already qualified team either to go easy on, or go all out against, a team hoping to qualify in second place has simply never happened.

Therefore it's not "funny", it's probability, if not certainty.

Anyhow, if you really believe England and NI concocted a draw in 1985, after England had won in Belfast a year previously, thereby meaning NI were going to have to win home and away against Romania in order to qualify in second position, then you're in the wrong place.

You really would be better suited looking for the final proof that Prince Philip murdered Princess Diana with the CIA gun the Mafia used to kill JFK, before making his getaway on Shergar, disguised as Elvis...:eek:

Ealing I watched the england /northern ireland game and in my opinion kerry dixon did a good job of missing those chances and if by some fluke
one of them had gone in I have no doubt NI would have got(been given)an equaliser.I think that neutrals are just a little bit less biased when commentating on how some of these games are conducted.
In the three games that we have disscussed the right result was achieved for the home nation or republic of Ireland.
I think that is as near to scientific proof as we are going to get on this issue.
It would be interesting to look at bookies odds on the teams that needed the result as this might also give an insight as to how the bookies thought these matches were going to go and how they did go.

[EalingGreen]

Considers? :D

EG - the onus is on the IFA to make the NI football team more accessible for everyone in NI as a large minority of the population does not identify with the team. Whether this means adopting a neutral flag/ a neutral anthem/ neutral party tunes/ neutral tolerable behaviour it's up to you wee lassies to sort out.

What this has to do with the country of Ireland, it's flag, it's national anthem and it's football team is beyond me :confused:

Double Standards if ever there were.

The FAI asserts its right to pick any player born anywhere on the island. Fine. Yet it flies a flag and plays an Anthem with which a significant minority (1 million) does not identify.

Therefore, if the FAI truly wants to be accessible to everyone in Ireland, this must mean adopting a neutral flag and anthem, plus the suppression of all divisive behaviour (e.g. booing of Rangers players, "Up the Ra" during FOA, "Stand Up if you hate the Brits" etc) by their fans.

Otherwise, if they are not prepared to do so, then they are clearly not genuinely interested in attracting support from every Irish person, presumably because their definition of "Irishness" is essentially a political one.

Which would, of course, explain why the FAI operates a clear policy of only approaching players from one community in NI, a policy the effect of which is to reinforce the sectarian divide in Ireland, not break it down.

Are you familiar with the phrase "Bloody Hypocrites"? :rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

Ealing I watched the england /northern ireland game and in my opinion kerry dixon did a good job of missing those chances and if by some fluke
one of them had gone in I have no doubt NI would have got(been given)an equaliser.I think that neutrals are just a little bit less biased when commentating on how some of these games are conducted.
In the three games that we have disscussed the right result was achieved for the home nation or republic of Ireland.
I think that is as near to scientific proof as we are going to get on this issue.
It would be interesting to look at bookies odds on the teams that needed the result as this might also give an insight as to how the bookies thought these matches were going to go and how they did go.

I posted a clip which included highlights from the game in question. Amongst these was a fingertip save by Jennings from a "Hoddle Special" and an equally wondrous save by him where he tipped a Kerry Dixon effort over the bar. The Harlem Globetrotters could not have contrived such a conjuring trick.

Plus you have completely ignored the victory which England had previously achieved in Belfast, which meant that in order to achieve second place in the Group, NI needn't not only a draw at Wembley, but victories home and away against the Romania of Georgie Hagi etc.

Moreover, you overlook the fact that having already qualified, the England players will have been desperate to book their place in the squad for Mexico. Are you really contending that Kerry Dixon would deliberately miss chances for the sake of the NI team, when the battle for the centre forward spot in the England team was between him and Gary Lineker? :eek:

There is no point in arguing with you on this. I said before that anyone who professes to know anything about football and genuinely believes that this game was a fix, must be an idiot.

I don't believe you to be an idiot. Sadly, it is worse than that; by your persisting with your conspiracy theory, even in the face of all the evidence, I can only conclude that you are prejudiced, either against the English, the Northern Irish, or both.

[ifk101]

Double Standards if ever there were.

The FAI asserts its right to pick any player born anywhere on the island. Fine. Yet it flies a flag and plays an Anthem with which a significant minority (1 million) does not identify.

The FAI picks players that are eligible to represent the football team of Ireland, the country. The team represents the country of Ireland, its national anthem, its national flag and its people.


Therefore, if the FAI truly wants to be accessible to everyone in Ireland, this must mean adopting a neutral flag and anthem, plus the suppression of all divisive behaviour (e.g. booing of Rangers players, "Up the Ra" during FOA, "Stand Up if you hate the Brits" etc) by their fans.

The FAI represents the country of Ireland, not the island of Ireland. It can pick players from the whole of the island of Ireland - thanks to the IFA's initiatives, and FIFA's ruling.


Otherwise, if they are not prepared to do so, then they are clearly not genuinely interested in attracting support from every Irish person, presumably because their definition of "Irishness" is essentially a political one.

Like I said the FAI represents the country of Ireland. The fact that the FAI can pick players born in NI does not diverge from the fact that it represents the country of Ireland.


Which would, of course, explain why the FAI operates a clear policy of only approaching players from one community in NI, a policy the effect of which is to reinforce the sectarian divide in Ireland, not break it down.

The FIFA eligibility issue was only recently resolved. Give the FAI time. :D


Are you familiar with the phrase "Bloody Hypocrites"? :rolleyes:

Familiar with the phrase you can't teach an old dog new tricks. You see the FAI as the root of evil attached to NI football, an opinion that has been long ingrained in your mind.

[ifk101]

Which would, of course, explain why the FAI operates a clear policy of only approaching players from one community in NI, a policy the effect of which is to reinforce the sectarian divide in Ireland, not break it down.

Clear policy? Alan Kernaghan?

[seanfhear]

I posted a clip which included highlights from the game in question. Amongst these was a fingertip save by Jennings from a "Hoddle Special" and an equally wondrous save by him where he tipped a Kerry Dixon effort over the bar. The Harlem Globetrotters could not have contrived such a conjuring trick.

Plus you have completely ignored the victory which England had previously achieved in Belfast, which meant that in order to achieve second place in the Group, NI needn't not only a draw at Wembley, but victories home and away against the Romania of Georgie Hagi etc.

Moreover, you overlook the fact that having already qualified, the England players will have been desperate to book their place in the squad for Mexico. Are you really contending that Kerry Dixon would deliberately miss chances for the sake of the NI team, when the battle for the centre forward spot in the England team was between him and Gary Lineker? :eek:

There is no point in arguing with you on this. I said before that anyone who professes to know anything about football and genuinely believes that this game was a fix, must be an idiot.

I don't believe you to be an idiot. Sadly, it is worse than that; by your persisting with your conspiracy theory, even in the face of all the evidence, I can only conclude that you are prejudiced, either against the English, the Northern Irish, or both.
Ealing green I fear you protest too much.
Don't take it so seriously its only another man's opinion about some football games.
I will just ignore the personal abuse(oops)
Three games three right results for the teams that needed to qualify including the republic of Ireland.
If I am winding you up I do not mean to.I think you might be winding yourself up.
Northern did well in the other matches and did deserve to qualify but if you could find a neutral(on these boards) I believe they would be a bit suspicious of the result always working out.

On another point I would say that the present NI team would be as good (or nearly)as the team that qualified in 82/86 and I wonder does this show that it is harder to qualify for tournaments now

[Gather round]

You might as well have shoved your degree because IMO you will never again see the loyalist team in the World Cup finals

Given that we qualified three times when it was difficult, I reckon we've a decent chance of doing so again when it becomes easier (ie with 24 Euro places to scrap for). And maybe 48 in the WC?


I could see only one green banner being displayed by NI supporters during the Slovenia game but plenty of Union Flags and Red Hand of Ulster emblems (many bearing explicitly unionist slogans)

Almost all fans wear green; most banners feature the red hand. Sadly, despite searching high and low through the Maribor stadium, I couldn't see a single tricolor to reassure TP.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yLZQaL7eS3s



I would respectfully suggest that you are guilty of much greater naivity if you think that the behaviour of your supporters is in any way welcoming and inclusive. Never mind the grass roots initiatives, if you are in any way serious about attracting more nationalists to the NI team, get yourselves a neutral flag, a neutral anthem and enforce a ban on any emblems, flag, chants and songs that are explicitly partisan. If that is beyond you then maybe we should have an All Ireland team with neutral flag and anthem as the only means of banishing divisive and sectarian posturing at what should be sporting events

I would respectfully suggest that you stop stirring the sh*t. We're not interested in an all-Ireland team nor scratching anyone else's team. Nobody is posturing bar you and some other comedians on this thread. Most of whom clearly haven't been near an NI game in years, if ever. Even if their mammy knows Pat Jennings and their anonymous mate's a journalist.


Whether this means adopting a neutral flag/ a neutral anthem/ neutral party tunes/ neutral tolerable behaviour it's up to you wee lassies to sort out

Thanks for your post, the content of which has been noted. Got a problem with "lassies"?


Ealing I watched the england /northern ireland game and in my opinion kerry dixon did a good job of missing those chances and if by some fluke one of them had gone in I have no doubt NI would have got(been given)an equaliser.I think that neutrals are just a little bit less biased when commentating on how some of these games are conducted. In the three games that we have disscussed the right result was achieved for the home nation or republic of Ireland. I think that is as near to scientific proof as we are going to get on this issue. It would be interesting to look at bookies odds on the teams that needed the result as this might also give an insight as to how the bookies thought these matches were going to go and how they did go

Ha ha. Are you on drugs? Even by the obsessive, wind-up standards on this thread, really...

[EalingGreen]

I could see only one green banner being displayed by NI supporters during the Slovenia game but plenty of Union Flags and Red Hand of Ulster emblems (many bearing explicitly unionist slogans)

Really? And who were this lot in Maribor? Nigerians? You seem to misunderstand the difference between "Loyal" - as in "Loyal Supporters", a chant heard wherever football fans gather - and "Loyalist". The below picture is only one half of the NI tribune (I couldn't get a clear photo of the other end), but I see all sorts of banners there, with the overall impression of the fans themselves being a Sea of Green...
http://www.rtvslo.si/sport/upload/sport/tribuna1_1.jpg

[EalingGreen]

The FAI picks players that are eligible to represent the football team of Ireland, the country. The team represents the country of Ireland, its national anthem, its national flag and its people.



The FAI represents the country of Ireland, not the island of Ireland. It can pick players from the whole of the island of Ireland - thanks to the IFA's initiatives, and FIFA's ruling.



Like I said the FAI represents the country of Ireland. The fact that the FAI can pick players born in NI does not diverge from the fact that it represents the country of Ireland.



The FIFA eligibility issue was only recently resolved. Give the FAI time. :D


"Ireland", "island", "country", "national" etc - it's all semantic flim-flam.

The simple fact is that as far as the Irish Government is concerned, anyone born anywhere in Ireland is entitled to citizenship/Passport. Which the FAI then uses as the pretext for eligibility for the ROI side - which its supporters now assure us is a de facto All-Ireland side.

Yet the flags, anthems and emblems for that side do not include or represent one million Irish people. Therefore, if you urge that the IFA should adopt "neutral" emblems etc, on the basis that the present ones do not include or represent everyone in NI, then you should do the same, so as to include everyone in Ireland (i.e. the country, nation, island etc, or however you wish to term it).

If not, then it must be clear by the reasoning you apply to the IFA/NI, that you are not "interested" in attracting support from everyone within your country, thereby making you prejudiced and hypocritical.



You see the FAI as the root of evil attached to NI football, an opinion that has been long ingrained in your mind.
Where did I ever apply the epithet "evil" (or anything like it) to the FAI? I think they've got a cheek, granted, but that's someway short of labelling them "satanic" etc.:rolleyes:

[EalingGreen]

Clear policy? Alan Kernaghan?

First, Kernaghan was born in England, not NI.

Second, he was not wanted (stupidly, imo) by the IFA.

Third, in his desire to play international football, he is as likely to have approached the FAI as the other way round.

My point was that the evidence shows the FAI only approaches youngsters from the Nationalist community in NI, not from the Unionist community.

And the net effect of such a clearly discriminatory (true sense of the word)policy must be to reinforce further the divisions on this island, especially in NI.

In my opinion, this is disgraceful.

[paul_oshea]

EG, for those that bring union jacks and display them, lets say some nationalist supporters brought a tri-colour, would you object to it being hung along with, and beside those Union jacks?

BTW, seanfhear, actuary is not a case of thought, but statistics, and its certainly not based on 3 games only. We got a draw, which wasn't a right result at the time, only in the end after the Denmark game was it "the right result". I can't say about the other games as I was too young but to try and suggest that the right result was agreed on and executed is beyond beleif, perhaps and this is perhaps, it came about by certain individuals but thats the closest you could realistically claim.

[seanfhear]

First, Kernaghan was born in England, not NI.

Second, he was not wanted (stupidly, imo) by the IFA.

Third, in his desire to play international football, he is as likely to have approached the FAI as the other way round.

My point was that the evidence shows the FAI only approaches youngsters from the Nationalist community in NI, not from the Unionist community.

And the net effect of such a clearly discriminatory (true sense of the word)policy must be to reinforce further the divisions on this island, especially in NI.

In my opinion, this is disgraceful.
You have left a bit of an open door here Ealing Green and I might as well walk in.
I hearby invite all players from whatever backround to avail of the present ruling from FIFA to exercise their right to play for the Republic of Ireland if they choose to do so.All are welcome.
My own preference is for a united Ireland team but nobody can have it all for the moment at any rate.