Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[Stuttgart88]

I think Trap's tenure can be marked by more than just hard results though. One qualification and a near miss was pretty good, as was the remarkable away record and solid record against tricky lower seeds.

But unlike Owls a Fan I can't ignore the way he went about the job. I had lunch with a well-placed guy on Tuesday and he said he has heard inside accounts of just how much Trap took the proverbial in terms of lack of effort. He did say he thought O'Neill is lazy too though!

And while I'm not saying I'll only accept stylish football under O'Neill but I absolutely don't want any more being afraid of the ball and lack of trust towards anyone who can actually use the ball. Even if Trap had qualified last time out I'd have wanted him gone as I'd got so sick of the teams he picked and the way he played.

[geysir]

We shall see. Trapattoni's last campaign was a disaster but if Martin can bring us to a play-off and a qualification in three campaigns I will be pleased. Anything else will be a bonus.

Abwarten und Tee trinken as they say in German.

A top 2 finish is all that required, O'Neill has it much easier to qualify directly and from a second seed position in the draw.
We can expect 23 to 25 points at a minimum in a 6 team group, considering how much of a numbskull Trap was supposed to be with useless draws.
Getting to the dizzy heights of a play-off for WC 2018 but falling to a seeded team would be regarded as a huge failure by fans and surely MON's time would be up in that circumstance?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Nobody said draws were useless, geysir. You are just seeing things that aren't there.

[Stuttgart88]

What did you mean by 'infatuation with draws'? You may not have meant they were useless, but you didn't seem to value them much either. I'm confused Ted.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

What did you mean by 'infatuation with draws'? You may not have meant they were useless, but you didn't seem to value them much either. I'm confused Ted.

By infatuation with draws, I mean it was almost as if Trapattoni wanted to draw some matches we were in a position to win. Too many examples to mention. A win and a loss is worth more than two draws. Is a draw a point gained or two points lost?

At first it was sad how many times we were winning a game and playing well only to change tact and inevitably concede an equaliser, then it became depressing and finally by the Austria game in Dublin it became infuriating and he should have been sacked there and then.

No faith in the players whatsoever. Stopping short of calling them crap.

The reason we had so many what ifs is not because of any lack of effort or quality from the players. It's because of Trapattoni's neuroses. And people can make excuses about a supposed lack of talent or how small a country we are. It won't change my opinion. Sick and tired of seeing teams like Scotland and Northern Ireland outplaying teams like France, Italy, Spain and Sweden yet we have this blase attitude towards a frankly embarrassing competitive record against teams with any degree of quality.

I sincerely hope he is done managing at this level and no other country or club has to deal with his laziness and crotchetiness

[Stuttgart88]

In fairness to Trap the neurosis with drawing away was been there for well over a decade, and the inability to turn winning positions into wins has been there a long time too.

But on everything else, I agree although I'd qualify that by saying that isolated wins by NI and Scotland haven't done them any good. But for years I have been wanting us to engage teams in a match no matter where it is. I've been envious of Denmark and Sweden's away results for ages. I still lament the late goal in Israel. I think that was a chance to get the away win monkey of our backs and to get us used to winning away.

If nothing else though, I hope / half-expect that Trap has left us the knowhow to continue to win in Eastern European banana skin venues and expect at least a draw against peers away, and this is something O'Neill can build on.

[Charlie Darwin]

In fairness to Trap the neurosis with drawing away was been there for well over a decade, and the inability to turn winning positions into wins has been there a long time too.

Funnily enough, whether by accident or design, I think Staunton was the one manager who bucked that trend. In between the extreme conservatism of the Kerr and Trapattoni reigns, we had end-to-end, haphazard encounters away from home like Slovakia, the Czechs... and Cyprus. You can accuse Stan of an awful lot of things (and he's probably guilty of all of them), but he always sent his team out to win games, which is probably why they imploded so spectacularly.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, I'd agree with that except that I think the reason they imploded so badly was not that we went for the wins, but more that he just couldn't see what was really going on. I think lots of ordinary Joes could pick a strong Ireland XI, tell them to play for the country and go for it and they'd get a great reaction. But when more than that is needed there just wasn't anything else forthcoming. I don't think he realised that Stephen Ireland can't compete with combative midfielders, for example, but if he is protected he can be a threat in the final third. Stan just told him to play in midfield, I reckon.

[Charlie Darwin]

Oh god, I'm not suggesting that Stan knew how to set up a team, but I do think he told the players to go out and try to score goals rather than just contain, which was a pretty radical detour for Irish football. I remember sitting in the stands when Ireland scored the winner against Wales at home, and I just hadn't seen an Irish midfielder with the confidence to bomb on past the strikers since Keane was in his pomp. It was a really simple goal but it was a case of Irish players just trusting their abilities and making something happen, and for a brief moment I actually let myself believe we were actually going somewhere. You're right though, Ireland was the right player for us but he was being used in the wrong way and it was leaving us hopelessly exposed at a time when the midfield was once again becoming the dominant battleground in football.

[OwlsFan]

Sick and tired of seeing teams like Scotland and Northern Ireland outplaying teams like France, Italy, Spain and Sweden yet we have this blase attitude towards a frankly embarrassing competitive record against teams with any degree of quality.

In the first two campaigns I think we only lost one game to the top seeds and in the play off against France in each game over 90 minutes we won one and lost the other. We drew twice with European Finalists Italy. Both NI and Scotland may have beaten some top teams but they have also had some appalling results against the lesser sides home and away.

Anyway this is all in the past and here's hoping the "dream team" will deliver two qualifications (to better Trap) and beat the top-seeds to spare your embarrassment.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

In the first two campaigns I think we only lost one game to the top seeds and in the play off against France in each game over 90 minutes we won one and lost the other. We drew twice with European Finalists Italy. Both NI and Scotland may have beaten some top teams but they have also had some appalling results against the lesser sides home and away.

Anyway this is all in the past and here's hoping the "dream team" will deliver two qualifications (to better Trap) and beat the top-seeds to spare your embarrassment.

We didn't beat France. If we did, we wouldn't have lost the Playoff. Pipped Bulgaria to second in 2010. A Bulgaria team that lost 4-1 to Cyprus (Are we being hard on Stan or were Bulgaria just a rubbish team?). Qualified for Euro 2012, yet again without having to beat the top 2 seeds, but then became arguably the worst European Championship side in history. Just qualifying seems to be enough for some people though. Don't act like I'm the only person that was embarrassed by it all. Anyway, we were found out in the 2012 campaign and picked up two points out of a possible 18 against the top 3 seeds and that was because of fundamental ineptitude whatever about his past accomplishments and yes he deserves credit for getting us to the Playoffs in 2010 and the Euros in 2012 in what were weak groups. It's also worth noting that we were the second worst second placed team in the qualifying period for the former.

The "Northern Ireland and Scotland lose to lesser teams sometimes" seems to be the only opposing argument when I bring up how they have more belief, more determination, more fight and more balls than us when they play big teams. This isn't just getting 1 or 2 better results. They have each won over half-a-dozen high profile competitive games against big teams. We go into every game against teams like Russia and Germany expecting to lose and treating a draw as if it's a win. It has to stop. Performance wise, Northern Ireland and Scotland are generally far better against big teams as well (contrast Northern Ireland's match against Russia with ours).

We are better than this and I have full faith in Martin and Roy improving us mentally and giving us the belief and confidence that Trapattoni gradually eroded by constantly telling the players that they are crap and acting like we are Luxembourg whenever anyone deviated from bowing at his feet.

[geysir]

Oh god, I'm not suggesting that Stan knew how to set up a team, but I do think he told the players to go out and try to score goals rather than just contain, which was a pretty radical detour for Irish football. I remember sitting in the stands when Ireland scored the winner against Wales at home, and I just hadn't seen an Irish midfielder with the confidence to bomb on past the strikers since Keane was in his pomp. It was a really simple goal but it was a case of Irish players just trusting their abilities and making something happen, and for a brief moment I actually let myself believe we were actually going somewhere. You're right though, Ireland was the right player for us but he was being used in the wrong way and it was leaving us hopelessly exposed at a time when the midfield was once again becoming the dominant battleground in football.

Partly it's about each managerial phase is a reaction to the previous one, the common denominator is that fans eventually end up moaning like mad.... every time
Kerr talked a lot about planning and preparation, a reaction to perceptions about McCarthy, likewise Kerr's game plan was well mapped out and protective, at times with two out and out defensive minded central midfielders, on losing the ball upfield retreat immediately 40 metres and form a line . Stan came in and the talk was about pride and giving it a go, a reaction to caginess.Trap was a return to defence discipline, something Stan was weak on. Now we want to keep the ball better, a reaction to the hoof ball era of Trap. Hoolahan and Reid are elevated in status to more than actual worth.
I hope MON just sits down and works out eventually the best thing to do for our squad rather than react to the previous manager's faults and fall into the way of thinking that rectifying a previous tactical defect will resolve the woes in our game.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Partly it's about each managerial phase is a reaction to the previous one, the common denominator is that fans eventually end up moaning like mad.... every time
Kerr talked a lot about planning and preparation, a reaction to perceptions about McCarthy, likewise Kerr's game plan was well mapped out and protective, at times with two out and out defensive minded central midfielders, on losing the ball upfield retreat immediately 40 metres and form a line . Stan came in and the talk was about pride and giving it a go, a reaction to caginess.Trap was a return to defence discipline, something Stan was weak on. Now we want to keep the ball better, a reaction to the hoof ball era of Trap. Hoolahan and Reid are elevated in status to more than actual worth.
I hope MON just sits down and works out eventually the best thing to do for our squad rather than react to the previous manager's faults and fall into the way of thinking that rectifying a previous tactical defect will resolve the woes in our game.

Nobody is blowing Hoolahan and Reid up to mythical proportions. Nobody is even saying they should be automatic starters. Some people merely see more tangible benefits to having these players as options instead of players like Paul Green, Simon Cox, Andy Keogh, Conor Sammon and arguably even Glenn Whelan.

[OwlsFan]

We didn't beat France. If we did, we wouldn't have lost the Playoff. Pipped Bulgaria to second in 2010. A Bulgaria team that lost 4-1 to Cyprus (Are we being hard on Stan or were Bulgaria just a rubbish team?). Qualified for Euro 2012, yet again without having to beat the top 2 seeds, but then became arguably the worst European Championship side in history. Just qualifying seems to be enough for some people though. Don't act like I'm the only person that was embarrassed by it all. Anyway, we were found out in the 2012 campaign and picked up two points out of a possible 18 against the top 3 seeds and that was because of fundamental ineptitude whatever about his past accomplishments and yes he deserves credit for getting us to the Playoffs in 2010 and the Euros in 2012 in what were weak groups. It's also worth noting that we were the second worst second placed team in the qualifying period for the former.

The "Northern Ireland and Scotland lose to lesser teams sometimes" seems to be the only opposing argument when I bring up how they have more belief, more determination, more fight and more balls than us when they play big teams. This isn't just getting 1 or 2 better results. They have each won over half-a-dozen high profile competitive games against big teams. We go into every game against teams like Russia and Germany expecting to lose and treating a draw as if it's a win. It has to stop. Performance wise, Northern Ireland and Scotland are generally far better against big teams as well (contrast Northern Ireland's match against Russia with ours).

We are better than this and I have full faith in Martin and Roy improving us mentally and giving us the belief and confidence that Trapattoni gradually eroded by constantly telling the players that they are crap and acting like we are Luxembourg whenever anyone deviated from bowing at his feet.

Why do you think Roy Keane will improve us mentally and give us belief and confidence when he couldn't instill that in his Ipswich players and gradually eroded that, to use your words, in his Sunderland side? I have faith in O'Neill ok.

I said we beat France over 90 minutes. I am not going back to all the Trap stuff as it has been covered ad nauseum before you arrived on the scene rehashing it all again.

Glen Whelan is regularly playing in the Premiership and I am surprised to see you mention his name. Very few people would disagree that Hoolahan and Reid should not be in the squad and they are now so what's your point unless you're going back in to history again? Personally, I think Mick McCarthy played Ian Harte too much but that is of no the relevance to the current position unless you feel Harte should be in the squad now.

You also mention Paul Green. Didn't O'Neill select him to play against Poland ?

[geysir]

Nobody is blowing Hoolahan and Reid up to mythical proportions. Nobody is even saying they should be automatic starters. Some people merely see more tangible benefits to having these players as options instead of players like Paul Green, Simon Cox, Andy Keogh, Conor Sammon and arguably even Glenn Whelan.

Where did you get mythical from elevated? do you change water into wine as well? I said they were given elevated status, that means higher than actual. That elevation usually applies to any decent player, left out by any manager, in any team in the world, who are going through a rough patch.
Do you think we haven't discussed this all to death since Trap changed his mind and put Andy Keogh on instead of a togged out Andy Reid in Montenegro? From Trap's 2nd competitive game we've been talking about it. Both Reid and Hoolahan are in the squad now and most every fan welcomes that and most every fan thinks they should have been given chances ahead of the likes of Keogh/Cox when they were played at wide midfield. Do you think this conversation has just started with you?
I'd say everybody here has accepted that Trap has gone (there's even a new managered thread) and the vast majority here would say that Hoolahan and Reid will get a fair shake of the whip from the new management.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Why do you think Roy Keane will improve us mentally and give us belief and confidence when he couldn't instill that in his Ipswich players and gradually eroded that, to use your words, in his Sunderland side? I have faith in O'Neill ok.

I said we beat France over 90 minutes. I am not going back to all the Trap stuff as it has been covered ad nauseum before you arrived on the scene rehashing it all again.

Glen Whelan is regularly playing in the Premiership and I am surprised to see you mention his name. Very few people would disagree that Hoolahan and Reid should not be in the squad and they are now so what's your point unless you're going back in to history again? Personally, I think Mick McCarthy played Ian Harte too much but that is of no the relevance to the current position unless you feel Harte should be in the squad now.

You also mention Paul Green. Didn't O'Neill select him to play against Poland ?

Trapattoni was practically calling our players crap and acting like he was managing International minnows as opposed to a squad of Premiership players. He managed to come to verbal/physical blows with Stephen Kelly, Kevin Foley and Andy Reid. Anyone in the game will tell you that these are quiet lads and consummate professionals. Say what you want about Keane but he won't foster an attitude where we bend over subserviently for teams like Germany and Spain and have players prematurely celebrating after drawing matches they should be winning. He seems to have touched a nerve with his commentary about the fans' party atmosphere in Poland. It's called a winning mentality.

Whelan has been poor for Ireland for a long time. Countless goals have been conceded because of him giving the ball away, failing to mark players, leaving gaping holes in midfield and offering no assurance whatsoever. Not just his fault, I know.

King selected Green in the squad. He hasn't played all season for Leeds. He has, by and large, been a liability for Ireland. He has looked an improvement over the last several games (apart from Austria away). I will cede that.

[Stuttgart88]

I was among the most critical of Whelan here in the last few years but the early signs under O'Neill are that he is allowed to play a bit more and looks a better player. He deserves another chance.


Wrt Paul Green I think the consensus opinion is that he is nowhere near as bad as the criticism he has attracted. As you say he has even looked OK in several games and was our motm in Poland in May. I think it's harsh to say he has been a liability for the most part, regardless of his club situation. That's not to say he should have been picked ahead of better footballers. As you rightly say, Trap didn't trust our better footballers.

I think Andy Reid is a top bloke, but if he had been a consummate professional we wouldn't have had years debating his weight.

What games did we prematurely celebrate drawing? Stockholm? Forde celebrated as he had made a super save in the last seconds of injury time. He was entitled to celebrate, and it was a good result regardless. If you're referring to the Dutch game way back, that's been done to death here before, as have most of your points.

As for the "party atmosphere" in a Gdansk, which you have referred to before, I think Keith Andrews had the definitive word: the team had just been put to the sword by a world class team that won 3 tournaments in a row. It was not the time for the fans to have a go, but they'd have been entitled to have a go if they remained uncompetitive against lesser teams. I think anyone who has a pop at Irish fans' carry on that night has an agenda. It wasn't acceptance of mediocrity and almost everyone was hurting. It's been done here to death here before too.

Apart from that I agree that Keane will not take a defeatist attitude and I think we'll all benefit from that, and I think he and O'Neill will place more trust in our more creative players. In fact the question is how many will be picked out of McClean, Brady, McGeady, Reid, Hoolahan, Ireland(!), Gibson...

[Charlie Darwin]

What games did we prematurely celebrate drawing? Stockholm? Forde celebrated as he had made a super save in the last seconds of injury time. He was entitled to celebrate, and it was a good result regardless. If you're referring to the Dutch game way back, that's been done to death here before, as have most of your points.

This is a funny one because a number of people criticised him for this, as if it indicted the entire team. Did anybody watch the Superbowl last night? I only caught about ten minutes, but anytime somebody made a tackle or prevented a catch, they were running to the bench and slapping each other's bums. Forde celebrated a great save (and a couple more) that saved us a point and he was fully entitled to. It doesn't mean he thought we'd got the best result possible. If that's how he motivates himself to continue doing the good work, more power to him.

[osarusan]

Shay Given was doing the same thing against Russia (doing it too much unfortunately, as in he had all those saves to make).

[OwlsFan]

As for the "party atmosphere" in a Gdansk, which you have referred to before, I think Keith Andrews had the definitive word: the team had just been put to the sword by a world class team that won 3 tournaments in a row. It was not the time for the fans to have a go, but they'd have been entitled to have a go if they remained uncompetitive against lesser teams. I think anyone who has a pop at Irish fans' carry on that night has an agenda. It wasn't acceptance of mediocrity and almost everyone was hurting. It's been done here to death here before too.

Apart from that I agree that Keane will not take a defeatist attitude and I think we'll all benefit from that, and I think he and O'Neill will place more trust in our more creative players. In fact the question is how many will be picked out of McClean, Brady, McGeady, Reid, Hoolahan, Ireland(!), Gibson...

Yes, as you say it has been discussed on numerous times and it's called supporting your side, win, lose or draw provided the players make the effort. Roy Keane hit a raw nerve ok because he doesn't understand the nature of supporting a team. If anyone watches the Turkish teams in the CL, even though their teams might be getting a hiding, their fans keep going until the end and beyond. It's not celebration. It's called support.

Anyway, as to Keane's winning mentality, will he will have much time to impart this unique knowledge as he's putting out the cones for practice and carrying Martin's bags?