Series 13 - Fri 13/Sat 14 - Updates

[harleyleeds]

If he was in ICU, then stepped down to a HDU ward, for medical reasons Gardai probably wouldn't be allowed to interview him.

Why on earth not, assuming he can talk.

[CMcC]

Whether you like it or not, it's still partially the clubs fault.

Was there a CCFC committee member on the away turnstile helping Shels identify and turn troublemakers away?? If not, why not??



I was engaging in hyperbole for the sake of an internet argument it happens.

Since Friday have CCFC went to the Gardai with information about this child and his "firm"??



CCFC haven't gone above and beyond really though have they?? Have the guards been contacted since Friday?? Was there a member of your committee at the turnstile in Tolka Park on Friday to identify troublemakers?? Did any one of your committee ring the gardai when they were causing trouble in the first half?? (I know technically not their responsibility but still twould be nice) Have these fellas details been circulated by the club around travel companies in Cork to prevent them hiring transport to away games?? (maybe on tricky legal ground there, has the club discussed the possibility with the Gardai??)

Point ultimately being the more you do the less this stink can be associated with your club, CCFC do lots but have they done everything in their power??



Dublin on Friday night, maybe the Gardai were busy with other issues besides a dozen teenage warriors. Did anyone ring the guards when they saw these youngfellas acting the maggot?? Did anyone from the vast majority fantastic, travelling, Cork City tell these youngfellas to cop the funk on. It's happened loads of times at Limerick games (happened me a couple of times!!) if someone steps out of line the group sorts them out.

Could ultimately be down to money too of course, guards cost serious amounts and Conan Byrne has to be paid.

It irks me a little that you'll always have at least a dozen of Templemores finest present in or around when we visit Tolka but it just shows you superintendents read the Sunday World too I suppose.

Thats a fair point. Its one thing banning people and sending notification to away venues but that wont work. We dont have the systems to support that. The most effective method is having an away security officer or event controller at the home turnstyle where the away support enter the ground. They can point out known banned trouble makers and its up to the home security people to refuse entry or not. If Cork did that then I would deem them to have done all they can and lived up to their responsibilities. It may not have prevented what happened the other night as it happened away from the ground but IMO if it was happening regularly it may have meant these lads wouldnt have bothered travelling all the way to Dublin knowing they were most likely not going to get in. Other clubs do it and it seems to work. And its busines as usual in the UK.

[micls]

There have been times we have sent a security officer to help the away team, I've seen it in Limerick and Waterford. I don't know if there was someone there on Friday.

Surely though pictures should be enough? It costs enough to run your own games without having to pay for security to travel to Dublin to help them police their ground.

As much as you'd think it would stop the idiots from turning up, it never did before. Even when it has happened and they have been kept outside they just hang around to cause trouble afterwards anyway. For them its a day out on the **** with their 'mates' for a scrap. I don't think the game itself is a huge part of the trip. Thats where the Gardai have to come in.

I don't know if the club have been in contact with the Gardai since, but I'd imagine so. I'd imagine the Gardai would have been in contact with both clubs. The club issued a statement saying it's under Garda investigation and they won't be saying more on the matter for the moment.

As for calling the Gardai cos they were winding up Shels fans, are you serious? You'd be laughed off the phone. The gardai are too busy to even turn up at the game but you think theyd respond to someone ringing to say there's kids acting the dick (not enough for even stewards to throw them out), and annoying other fans?

The gardai may have been busy, it's odd though since theyve managed to be there for every other shels game Ive ever been to, and all our games in Dublin. It can't be money as mentioned because the gardai don't give you an option inside the ground. It's pay up or the event doesn't go ahead. Usually there are plenty of Gardai at these games, whether it would have mad a difference I'm not sure but it certainly wouldnt have hurt. I'd imagine the garda budget is wiped because of the queen and thats why they weren't there.

[passerrby]

lads this is a very complex problem and one that requires a combination of funds and cooperation from many sides to even begin to address. but clubs need to be as proactive as possible in addressing the matter however they alone cannot solve the problem.
p.s Im sorry A face but a club cannot wash its hands of supporters just because they act like arseholes and are more interested in the event than the game on the pitch

[Lim till i die]

There have been times we have sent a security officer to help the away team, I've seen it in Limerick and Waterford. I don't know if there was someone there on Friday.

Surely though pictures should be enough? It costs enough to run your own games without having to pay for security to travel to Dublin to help them police their ground.

Pictures aren't enough. If you're doing all you can you send the club official. Supposing a few of them have grown little bum fluff tashers or gotten new coats or something, pictures are no good then. A picture of me from last year would be kind of useless for example.

As for it costing enough to run your own games, that's tough look at the extra expense other completely innocent clubs have to incur becasue of the idiots that have attached themselves to your club.

If Cork had had a club official on the turnstile and these fellas had been refused entry as a result, then you'd be able to wash your hands of it to a far greater extent. As it is they came in as Cork fans and watched half the game as Cork fans and because Cork didn't do everything in their power to prevent this Cork must shoulder some of the blame.

As for calling the Gardai cos they were winding up Shels fans, are you serious? You'd be laughed off the phone. The gardai are too busy to even turn up at the game but you think theyd respond to someone ringing to say there's kids acting the dick (not enough for even stewards to throw them out), and annoying other fans?

You were the one demanding guards be present, now you think they're too busy to respond to an incident...

Your "kids acting the dick" talk is pretty disengenuous aswell, I'd imagine the way that phonecall would go would actually be "Hello, this is blah blah of Cork City FC, I'm just ringing to let you know that some well known hooligan elements of our support have gained entry to Tolka Park and are trying to cause trouble at the Shelbourne end of the ground." Might be taken a bit more seriously than "well biiiy, there's some youngfellas here teasing some youngfellas". Now maybe the guards still wouldn't have bothered responding, but at least Cork City would have been seen to be doing all that they can, but they weren't and they didn't, hence as a club they must shoulder some of the blame.

[A face]

Could the dogs in the streets around Turners Cross not point the Gardai in the direction of the seven youngfellas that were with the lad without you putting appeals on the interweb??

Dogs, fans, locals, club members, barmen or bouncers .... i dont care who points them out just as long as its done. And i dont care how the message gets out there just as long as it does. The people who have information on this matter have a responsiblity to inform the Gardai and if any LOI if the have the league at heart they would report it in effort to resolve this problem.

FFS, I could probably identify them from pictures, never mind a Cork fan.

Well do it then ..... and what pictures are you on about.

Mealy mouthed nonsense, these children whether you like it or not are associated with Cork City FC, the club has to bear some responsibility for their actions.

So where do we differ

I'll grant you the banned lists and pictures, fair enough, it's something Shels don't bother doing (before whinging en masse about their "treatment"), but the club needs to go public on these cretins where possible, name them and shame them, feck it ring their parents. This "Ah shur we banned them, they're nothing to do with us" craic doesn't really cut it. CCFC pointing the Gardai in the direction of this fellas social group might be a good start.

Everything the club can do they are doing. See micls's post

Your first paragraph is you giving your hands a good wash. In the second paragraph you then proceed to buck passing.

Ahhh .... i'm doing neither !!

What you neglect to mention when talking up the virtues of event control is the unecessary extra expenditure that policing these cretins brings to the clubs who have to host them. Can you imagine if this lad had died?? Not only are our crowds against Shels and Cork reduced (I wouldn't bring my youngfella if I don't know the craic so wouldn't expect anyone else to) but our security costs sky rocket, we go from no guards to at least a half dozen guards, a dozen stewards to forty stewards. All this because Shels and Cork City have failed to act decisively when dealing with their baby hooligans. Is this fair?? Is this Limericks fault?? Is it Wexfords?? Is it the FAIs??

Thats why its even more important to report any info and get this sorted out.

In summary, to somehow imply that the behaviour of travelling supporters should be the sole responsibility of the club hosting them is absolute nonsense imo. If you want a league with event control, planning and grounds like you envisage above then I suggest Cork pull out of the league ask Rovers to join them and ye can play each 30 times a season with gangs of feral children travelling up and down the motorway to get their heads kicked in and it being absolutely nobodies fault.

EDIT: I'M LEAVING THIS LAST SPEEL UP FOR REPLIES INCASE I DIDN'T (it took me like three minutes to write!) BUT JUST READING BACK OVER YOUR POST I REALISE I COULD HAVE TOTALLY MISINTERPRETED THAT BIT I QUOTED. *palmsface*

I was thinking that you had wires crossed alright .... being honest, i hope the guy pulls through but i have no worries in saying he deserves everything he gets (legally speaking, not physical)

1. FAI in being innefective shocker.

They need to step up and lead on this one.

2. In fairness to them () it hasn't actually came out that this is football related yet (praise Allah!!) so maybe the FAI are trying to let the smoke clear?? No need to give the Herald any more excuse for a 24 page pullout!!

I'd agree with no giving the Herald anything to beat a drum with because the Herald dont want any problems sorted out, they prefer to see this kind of thing happening so they can sell more papers.

[micls]

You were the one demanding guards be present, now you think they're too busy to respond to an incident....

Yes, gardai should be present at public events like these. They are in most situations. However reporting an 'incident' of kids who've committed no crime and haven't even done enough to warrant being kicked out of the stadium is not something I'd expect them to respond to.

Your "kids acting the dick" talk is pretty disengenuous aswell, I'd imagine the way that phonecall would go would actually be "Hello, this is blah blah of Cork City FC, I'm just ringing to let you know that some well known hooligan elements of our support have gained entry to Tolka Park and are trying to cause trouble at the Shelbourne end of the ground." Might be taken a bit more seriously than "well biiiy, there's some youngfellas here teasing some youngfellas". Now maybe the guards still wouldn't have bothered responding, but at least Cork City would have been seen to be doing all that they can, but they weren't and they didn't, hence as a club they must shoulder some of the blame.

As mentioned above the 'causing trouble' wasn't even enough for stewards to think they should be kicked out so I doubt it was in any way serious (I wasn't there). I would imagine it was the usual singing, come on signs etc. You cannot possibly blame the fans for not calling the gardai because teenagers were acting the dick. Inside the ground, nothing happened. There was no fighting, throwing things etc, at this stage it's not a matter for the gardai, but for the stewards.

I would suggest that security at the game should have let the gardai know there was a possibility of trouble outside. I imagine all city fans would have presumed there'd be gardai outside after the game, as is normal. They can't have known they'd taken the night off from it. Usually these kids act the dick, the gardai tell them to feck off and send them on their bus. I'd imagine the same was expected by most people.

[Lim till i die]

As mentioned above the 'causing trouble' wasn't even enough for stewards to think they should be kicked out so I doubt it was in any way serious (I wasn't there). I would imagine it was the usual singing, come on signs etc. You cannot possibly blame the fans for not calling the gardai because teenagers were acting the dick.

Didn't blame the fans anywhere?? Why don't the Cork fans pull these fellas actually on an aside if they think they're acting the muppet??

What I've been saying is the committee of Cork City should be doing everything in their power to stop the kids acting the dick, they didn't Friday and therefore must shoulder some of the blame.

[passerrby]

as clubs if only we could come up with a way of getting their money but not letting them in we;d be sorted

[Lim till i die]

as clubs if only we could come up with a way of getting their money but not letting them in we;d be sorted

Organised cage fighting away from the grounds??

Easily led infants love the oul cage fighting too.

[Eminence Grise]

Why on earth not, assuming he can talk.

If he was in ICU, he was likely to have been any or all of intubated, sedated, or otherwise heavily medicated, and unable to talk. ICU has a one nurse to one patient ratio, and consultants won't take that kind of risk with patients. High dependency has a 2 to 1 ratio, and patients are still heavily medicated. (Mrs Grise had a stint nursing in the Mater's ICU.)

On top of that, I'm not sure if a statement taken from a heavily medicated patient (even one able to talk) would be acceptable in procuring an arrest warrant.

[harleyleeds]

If he was in ICU, he was likely to have been any or all of intubated, sedated, or otherwise heavily medicated, and unable to talk. ICU has a one nurse to one patient ratio, and consultants won't take that kind of risk with patients. High dependency has a 2 to 1 ratio, and patients are still heavily medicated. (Mrs Grise had a stint nursing in the Mater's ICU.)

On top of that, I'm not sure if a statement taken from a heavily medicated patient (even one able to talk) would be acceptable in procuring an arrest warrant.

With all due respect my son (14) was in icu for 8 days in Jan with a very serious head injury that involved heavy bleading and the brain shifting 7cm, and medication is the last thing you get because they like you to be alert as possible. Anyways I hope he is recovering and does so compleatly for even if he is a thug/gobs**te he deserves a chance to amend his ways(not saying he is I dont know anything about it), so get well .

[Eminence Grise]

With all due respect my son (14) was in icu for 8 days in Jan with a very serious head injury that involved heavy bleading and the brain shifting 7cm, and medication is the last thing you get because they like you to be alert as possible. Anyways I hope he is recovering and does so compleatly for even if he is a thug/gobs**te he deserves a chance to amend his ways(not saying he is I dont know anything about it), so get well .

With equal respect, ICU treatment depends on the nature of the illness or injury. Since we're both unaware of the precise nature of his injuries, rather than going off on a tangent we should probably let this one rest. Like you, I hope he recovers, and is better for his experience.

I also hope your son is fully recovered - that sounds like a particularly nasty injury.

[A face]

Anyways I hope he is recovering and does so compleatly for even if he is a thug/gobs**te he deserves a chance to amend his ways(not saying he is I dont know anything about it), so get well.

With all due respect, the guy is old enough to know right from wrong and made his own choices and that was the chance he was given. He didn't take that chance so he and his mates should be dealt with. If they are not then this will just exacerbate the situation and leave it open to have people being beaten to near death every weekend. If this case is swept under the carpet then it will only get worse. This particular group of lads are already out of hand, what more proof do you actually need. You cant be making allowances every time this stuff happens. Its time to take some action and prevent this getting any worse.

[harleyleeds]

With equal respect, ICU treatment depends on the nature of the illness or injury. Since we're both unaware of the precise nature of his injuries, rather than going off on a tangent we should probably let this one rest. Like you, I hope he recovers, and is better for his experience.

I also hope your son is fully recovered - that sounds like a particularly nasty injury.

Very true, I thought it was a head injury. With my son it was the scariest 24 hours of our lives waiting and hoping bleeding stopped and that he didnt suffer any seazures in the first 7 days. Then they took him off the anti seazure drip and I cant describe the releif we felt. This is why I feel so bad for someone else going through the same. Im sure most of us have done something at some time that could (with a little help) have developed into us or some other party being seriously injured . I think this kid has already being givin any lesson that can be learned so what would be the point in making it worse for him and more so for his parents(this is for A FACE by the way not you. Football matches will have trouble and we would be nieve to think it will be stamped out.

[A face]

I think this kid has already being givin any lesson that can be learned so what would be the point in making it worse for him and more so for his parents (this is for A FACE by the way not you. Football matches will have trouble and we would be nieve to think it will be stamped out.

Simple .... because of this, this and this.

The most that can happen is ten years imprisonment though.

[harleyleeds]

Simple .... because of this, this and this.

The most that can happen is ten years imprisonment though.

Well your certainly entitled to your opinion but zero tolerence rarely works. Mistakes happen. Ten years for fighting when your 16, the whole country would be in the nick .

[CSFShels]

Well your certainly entitled to your opinion but zero tolerence rarely works. Mistakes happen. Ten years for fighting when your 16, the whole country would be in the nick .

Indiscriminately throwing pretty hefty missiles at families is a little bit different. I hope the chap survives with no lasting effects and then is dealt with accordingly.

[harleyleeds]

Indiscriminately throwing pretty hefty missiles at families is a little bit different. I hope the chap survives with no lasting effects and then is dealt with accordingly.

Ah, didnt notice that earlier, attacking families is taboo. Compleatly different than some lads at each other. Still hope for his parents sake he recovers.

[micls]

Why don't the Cork fans pull these fellas actually on an aside if they think they're acting the muppet??

It has been done on many occasions by many people, these lads don't care and would tell you to f off. Unless you actually want to smack one of them, and risk an assault charge, it's pointless.

they didn't Friday and therefore must shoulder some of the blame.

Given I dont know the details, who was on the gate etc I wouldn't make that assumption. I still think the calling the Gardai from the crowd is a silly idea that would be laughed off, obviously you disagree.

Posted on our forum that the FAi are investigating the lack of security/gardai around.