Player eligibility row

[geysir]

Thats not how it played out with our situation. Passports can be acquired by many different means, automatic citizenship is a different matter and falls under article 15.
Because of the citizenship laws of the Republic before the GFA, Northern Irish born did not have to fulfill any of the requirements laid down in the other statutes - residency requirements or blood ties to the Republic, in order to qualify for the FAI. But it was not an automatic citizenship. They had to apply for citizenship as part of the passport application.
The GFA changed that and the citizenship rights were the same for all born on the Island.
Both Blatter and the legal head referred to that sameness of the citizenship rights as justification when they were called upon to give a reason why they supported the rights of all Ireland born to play for the FAI when it was challenged by the IFA.
And that those same GFA agreement was accepted both North and South.
If you don't see this, I would think you are missing a sizable part of the reason why FIFA rewrote that artice 15 in the way they did.

[Mr_Parker]

Yes, but you have to prove your nationality, and the standard way of doing so is with a passport. Another way would be a birth cert, but showing birth cert proving you were born in Belfast would not in itself be likey to satisfy FIFA that your nationality lies with ROI.

I think most of the rest of your post has already been dealt with and anyway I don't have much time at the moment, but I will answer the above. Players do not have to prove their nationality by producing any document to satisy FIFA in order to play for a country. There is no such requirement.

[Gather round]

Would it be fair to assume that the passing of the GFA had a bearing on the FAI's willingness to by-pass this "gentleman's agreement" in that the British government along with the population in Northern Ireland formally agreed that all those born on the island were entitled to Irish citizenship, whereas they hadn't previously, which would have made such an action as the FAI calling a northern-born player up appear hostile and somewhat irredentist with a flagrant disregard for what was then still under dispute as far as international relations were concerned?

Maybe. But of course the FAI's priority isn't to manage irredentism in international relations, it's to get more players (largely from outside the country) for their football team.

Can I just state that the flag and the anthem of Northern Ireland are not an issue at all and anybody who says it is is likely talking ******. It is the fact that there is a Northern Ireland, I have absolutely no allegiance to that state nor would ever describe myself as Northern Irish - the flag and the anthem issue is a total red herring

Fair enough. I wouldn't dismiss everyone who disagrees quite so airily, but clearly changing those symbols would have no effect on a lot of people's thinking.

Because of the circumstances on our unfortunately divided Island

Speak for yourself

it is my belief that any Irish Man north or South should play for the team of their choosing

The issue is whether it's reasonable for them to play for both.

Kind of crazy to have supported the RoI team all of your life and if you have the desire and ability not to be able to play for them. The same also holds for NI

See immediately above.

My only suggestion for change would be that an Under 21 competitive cap ties you to that country and not let the topsy turvy scenarios we are left with under the current rules

Good man, there's a basis for negotiations to a compromise.

The special dispensation to the 4 UK teams to field international teams despite not being independent countries really muddies the waters in any debate of this sort. Someone previously implied that ROI has a special advantage here - on the contrary it's the 4 "home nations" that do

I don't think it does muddy the waters. The issue is whether it's reasonable for someone to play for two different teams. You could apply it anywhere (the reason FIFA changed their rules was under pressure from French-speaking countries in North and West Africa who wanted to be able to pick the children or grandchildren of expats who'd already played for underage international sides in France.

Britain's dispensation (which isn't unique, the Faroe Islands for example isn't a sovereign country) simply follows from us 'inventing' international football in the 19th. RoI doesn't have an advantage so much as an unusual* system of offering citizenship to people outside the country (* no criticism of this implied).

No apologies for using "Ireland" in this context as that's what the state is called, ROI was a FIFA invented name for the football team

FIFA- quite reasonably- uses the name RoI to avoid confusion, since its members include the two international teams in Ireland. They didn't invent the name- when I lived in Dublin people often referred to the country as the Republic, although I realise this is less so now.

AFAIK, the only qualification for schoolboy representation is where you go to school (there is a distinction between the U18 schoolboy team and the U18 national team). So Kernaghan qualified for NI schoolboys by virtue of the fact that he went to school there, in the same way Ryan Giggs played for England schoolboys, but was never eligible for the England national team

I think this may have changed recently- the Welsh schools team(s) include(s) players at school outside the country, but who are nationally-qualified to play for its youth sides.

IMO any player born in northern ireland is the same as the south. were all irish. i dont care if the IFA are annoyed about it. as far as im concerned were all irish - the one

You do realise there are two international football teams in Ireland?

We have to basically provide a service from which young players feel they will get something back and hopefully they will have the desire to play for Northern Ireland. It’s an issue we have to keep working at though, although if a young player feels a stronger affinity to the Republic of Ireland then that’s the way it is

Fair points. But really we have to do more than provide a service. However good it is, some people will always decline the chance to play international football, whether because they can't be arsed (Stephen Ireland, Biggles McCartney) or would prefer to play for another team. A deal with the FAI would go some way to improve the situation, although obviously I realise it wouldn't stop players simply turning away even if they couldn't then go and play for someone else.

the other Paul Kee had a very giid game against Austria in the previous match, NI's last significant away win

Ouch. To be fair we did thrash Liechtenstein in 2007, who weren't complete mugs.

Exactly. As far as I know the gentleman's agreement was originally disbanded at a stage when Nationlists playing for the North were being given significant stick (around the time Lennon's abuse picked up?). The game in 93 at Windsor may have had some bearing in FAI circles. Was Kerr the first underage manager to pick youngsters born in the 6 counties?

Er, how far do you know? Which other players got significant stick (obviously I'm not downplaying the disgraceful treatment of Neil Lennon)? I don't want to be too defensive about this, but whatever the merits of the previous deal we need one that stops NI internationals later moving to play for the Republic. It's only reasonable.

[ifk101]

I don't want to be too defensive about this, but whatever the merits of the previous deal we need one that stops NI internationals later moving to play for the Republic. It's only reasonable.

What previous deal?

[geysir]

I'm aware of those facts, but as I stated in my post, before the GFA, people born in the 6 counties were automatically considered Irish citziens by the Irish state, but not by the UK. As such, proving you were born in NI would not at the time have proven to FIFA that you had the appropriate nationality to play for ROI. You would have needed some other document to prove you had the appropriate nationality, and in practice, that document is normally an Irish passport. I agree that anyone born in the North was always entitled to an Irish passport though (well by "always", I mean since independence for the 26).

You are confused by 'entitled to' and 'automatically' an Irish citizen.
Entitled to be eligible for citizenship and automatic citizenship are 2 different scenarios.

Before the GFA, people born in NI were not automatically dual citizens, they had the birth right to pursue an Irish citizenship under the Irish Nationality Act of the mid 1950s
After the GFA, pretty much all NI born were automatic Irish citizens and therefore automatically dual citizens.

Because of the automatic nationality since the GFA, Shane Duffy may only have a UK passport but can still play for the FAI.

[Mr_Parker]

IFA to go to the CAS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...sh/8538702.stm

[dr_peepee]

IFA to go to the CAS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...sh/8538702.stm

Yep. Rather than engage with the players that switched and address the reasons for switching they go this route. Shockingly short sighted at best. This is going to compound the issue and drive more players to declare for us. Ridiculous in my opinion..

[Wolfie]

IFA to go to the CAS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...sh/8538702.stm

Could get interesting if the SFA row in with the IFA on this. Possible the SFA have already given an assurance to IFA that they will.

"However, the Northern Ireland governing body will argue that players such as Gibson, whose parents and grandparents were born in Northern Ireland, should not be allowed to declare for the Republic".

If lads such as Gibson have a strong desire to play for Ireland - how are they suggesting they will stop them?

If the likes of Gibson can acquire an Irish Passport - how are IFA suggesting he could not play for Ireland?

[osarusan]

If lads such as Gibson have a strong desire to play for Ireland - how are they suggesting they will stop them?

If the likes of Gibson can acquire an Irish Passport - how are IFA suggesting he could not play for Ireland?

Maybe by trying to get the rule changed so that only the grandparent rule applies? Or to get a younger deadline for declaration of nationality (in a football sense at least)?

Not a hope of it happening though I'd say, as it would mean a citizen of a country (automatically, due to GFA) would not be allowed to represent that country. (without having already represented another country)

[lopez]

The answer to the question is no. And if Northern Ireland fans are saying that these players are 'stolen' then the ignorance amongst the people there hasn't changed much.

Two points: The availability of a passport to anyone born in the North was always there, regardless of ancestry. When I got a quick FBC for my son in 1994, a London embassy official told me he had just done an Irish passport for the child of two Indian parents, one a doctor, living in Belfast. Put it down to the residency rule in a part of Ireland claimed by Dublin, but that was the case.

Second point, especially for Gather Round, is that the proposal to tie a player to a country from the youth team - as happened in the past - should be brought back. But this rule needs to be done by FIFA for ALL countries, not just us. As for a special rule for Ireland, forget it. The Russian fed with a similar Russian population in Latvia and smaller minorities in Estonia, Ukraine etc, will not allow a situation that would compromise losing possibly their best ever player, who feels Russian and wants to play for Russia, to another country.

[Gather round]

What previous deal?

The Gentleman's Agreement. You know, the one that ran for decades.

IFA to go to the CAS

Can't see the point of this. We should be trying to persuade FAI to a compromise, not ****ing into the wind in Zurich or wherever CAS is.

Yep. Rather than engage with the players that switched and address the reasons for switching they go this route

Hang on, the IFA have engaged with some of these players (particularly Duffy) at great length. The assumption by some on here- that 'by all accounts he felt badly treated' doesn't ring true. Clearly he was very well treated and still refused to play. And let's be honest, there are varying reasons for moving to the RoI side that are well known: English guys wouldn't get in their side, Gibson and McGeady were unhappy at having to give up a club trial for a Scotland or NI representative game and so on. If Duffy never really wanted to play for any NI side, clearly we're well rid before he does a Biggles and sulks off in the middle of the senior qualifiers. More gently, if he was just considering his options we need to press for those options to be changed. It won't force anyone to play, at any level, but it just might save us good players who would otherwise be lost. In practice there will always be players from all backgrounds who see the attraction of playing international football.

This is going to compound the issue and drive more players to declare for us

Agreed it's a risk. But even without this row there is an existing risk that our already international players can then go to play for other teams. We need to try to reduce this and protect our small player pool.

Could get interesting if the SFA row in with the IFA on this. Possible the SFA have already given an assurance to IFA that they will

They may owe us a favor for helping to kill off the Team GB but there's little really in this for the Scots. McGeady and McCarthy are in an unusual situation, not many 20-something Scots will have Irish grandparents according to most Glaswegian fans I know. The tabloid hysteria probably a one off.

If lads such as Gibson have a strong desire to play for Ireland - how are they suggesting they will stop them?

Tying after any u-19, u-21 or senior cap looks the only credible way to me.

If the likes of Gibson can acquire an Irish Passport - how are IFA suggesting he could not play for Ireland?

See above. You can have two or as many passports as you qualify for, but you should only be able to play for one international team as an adult.

Maybe by trying to get the rule changed so that only the grandparent rule applies?

As you say, this is a no-no. There's no difference between Duffy on the one hand and Wilson and Gibson on the other just because only one of them had a parent born across the border

Or to get a younger deadline for declaration of nationality (in a football sense at least)?

Why not 18? But the birthday isn't the greatest significance, it's accepting selection to play for NI at u-19/ u-21/ senior level.

Second point, especially for Gather Round, is that the proposal to tie a player to a country from the youth team - as happened in the past - should be brought back

Good point, amigo.

But this rule needs to be done by FIFA for ALL countries, not just us...as for a special rule for Ireland, forget it

Why? It's only a problem for Northern Ireland that can be addressed by the Republic of Ireland. Limited short-term interest to Scotland and basically none to anyone else. As you know, FIFA have just done basically the opposite (because they can mollify the Africans without really inconveniencing France. Anyway, I imagine the last thing your FA and most fans want is to involve FIFA. After the November upset I half-thought you might boycott Euro 2012 in protest

The Russian fed with a similar Russian population in Latvia and smaller minorities in Estonia, Ukraine etc, will not allow a situation that would compromise losing possibly their best ever player, who feels Russian and wants to play for Russia, to another country

I don't see why not. Give him an U-19 cap, if he's that keen he'll accept.

[lopez]

Why? It's only a problem for Northern Ireland that can be addressed by the Republic of Ireland. Limited short-term interest to Scotland and basically none to anyone else. As you know, FIFA have just done basically the opposite (because they can mollify the Africans without really inconveniencing France. Anyway, I imagine the last thing your FA and most fans want is to involve FIFA. After the November upset I half-thought you might boycott Euro 2012 in protest

No it's not just a problem for you. It's a problem for Bosnia, and a host of USSR successor states. With Scotland and France the question is down to geographical ancestry. With NI it is down to ethnicity that has nothing to do with geography.

If you don't want the situation of players jumping from one FA to another then change the rules. What is not up for negotiation is that any player born in Ireland can play for what they regard as their country. That includes someone from Donegal declaring for the North, but then I forgot, he can't get a British passport even if his great grandfather died in a trench in Northern France for Britain. I'm sorry but we can't help you with either of these issues. You need to see the people concerned even if you end up covered, as you say, by your own urine.

[ifk101]

The Gentleman's Agreement. You know, the one that ran for decades.

Can't say I'm familiar with that agreement. Can you provide any details? You know, things like the date this agreement was made, the names of the people that "shook" on it, etc etc....

[dantheman]

Dear oh dear. If I was an FAI scout looking north, I'd be worried about my job!

By running to the CAS and ignoring the main anthem issue that exists in Belfast, the IFA are doing the FAI's recruiting for them!!

Give it up, and stop shooting yourselves in the foot. It can't be everyone else's fault....

Can't say I'm familiar with that agreement. Can you provide any details? You know, things like the date this agreement was made, the names of the people that "shook" on it, etc etc....

This is what happens when unionists talk only amongst themselves, and ignore outside opinions. Statements like this become established facts. There is no agreement.

And guess what, even if there was one, the IFA are owed no favours after the disgraceful behavious down the years.

[Munster Saint]

Could get interesting if the SFA row in with the IFA on this. Possible the SFA have already given an assurance to IFA that they will.

It would be hard to see the Scots getting involved:

SFA Rep - "It's not right, the Republic of Ireland poaching underage players from other countries"
CAS Official - "Didn't Daniel Fox play for the England u21s?"
SFA Rep - "Oh, I forgot, I have a meeting I need to be at... got to go..."

[EalingGreen]

Can't say I'm familiar with that agreement. Can you provide any details? You know, things like the date this agreement was made, the names of the people that "shook" on it, etc etc....

Haven't got time at present to make a full post on this overall thread, but re the Gentlemens' Agreement, despite there likely being no documentation extant, or surviving negotiators, I have no doubt whatsoever about its existence, which has been referred to widely and without challenge from any source.

And the facts clearly bear out the existence of such an Agreement; from the sources which I have quickly and easily to hand, the following is evident.

1. The FAI first picked an NI born player at least as early as 1931 - Enniskillener Harry Chatton:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...y-chatton.html

2. In subsequent years, they went on to pick several more (at the same time as the IFA were picking Southern-born players):
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...ionalists.html

3. After WWII, the issue became more pressing, for a number of reasons:
a. The four British Associations re-joined FIFA;
b. This meant that NI were likely to re-enter the World Cup and any other international competitions which might be organised. Naturally, FIFA were going to be concerned by the implications of this eg players representing two teams within the one competition, as actually happened in 1950 -
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2008/01/dave-walsh.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2008/...addy-ryan.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/12/con-martin.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/12/tom-aherne.html
c. The IFA was notably more successful in enticing Southern players to represent them than the FAI, both because they could offer players regular 'glamour' games against England and Scotland, which required less travelling (from their English clubs, btw) than the ROI when competing either in Dublin or on the Continent, but also because the IFA treated them very well (see Con Martin quotation, below).

As a consequence, the FAI became extremely concerned that, as the numbers confirmed, they were losing out. They began to put pressure on Southern-born players not to represent the IFA, but play only for themselves, eventually even leaning on their clubs (my emphasis):

Con [Martin] was another dual internationalist. He played six times for Northern Ireland from 1946 to 1950 when the split was finally made between the FAI and the northern IFA who from then on were only able to recruit players born in their respective jurisdictions. Matters had come to a head during the 1950 World Cup campaign when some players (including Martin) represented both countries. Extreme pressure was put on the Irish players involved by the FAI to declare themselves in future only for the Republic.
Con was very unhappy about it: “I always had a great relationship with the IFA. We were treated very well and I always liked playing for them but the night before the game in Wrexham (when Northern Ireland played Wales in a World Cup tie) I got a call from Dublin asking me to refuse to play. I said that it was difficult to give an answer because this was my work, my profession.
“However, when I returned to Aston Villa the morning after the game I was approached by the chairman who asked me to refuse to play for Northern Ireland again. Surprised at this coming from him I asked why and he said that Villa would not be welcome in the Republic if I continued to play for Northern Ireland. At the time there was a big connection between Villa and Shamrock Rovers and it was Rovers who were making the running on this issue… and about his time I had got a lot of threatening letters and was called a Judas for playing for 20 pieces of silver. Some of the other players were reluctant to follow me but eventually they all did.”
http://irishabroad.com/news/irishpos...thOf220308.asp

The outcome of all this was as follows. After the NI v Wales World Cup Qualifier (Mar.1950), the FAI approached FIFA to express their dissatisfaction, who appear to have arbitrated the agreement that the border should be respected i.e. Irish players should only represent the Association within whose jurisdiction they were born.

[Incidentally, a little later in 1953, FIFA was also to declare that the FAI team must be known as "Republic of Ireland", with the IFA team to be called "Northern Ireland" in international competition only (i.e. the IFA was/is entitled to call themselves "Ireland" in friendlies or tournaments such as the British Championship, which they did until around 1970)]

The moral of which is that by espousing the doctrine of "choice" for the likes of Darron Gibson, the FAI is being wholly hypocritical, considering they moved previously to prevent players from choosing to represent the IFA.

Moreover, it was they (FAI) who originally requested that Irish players should not be entitled to represent the team from over the border from which they were born.

And it was they who broke the subsequent Gentlemens' Agreement, by starting to pick NI-born players, initially at youth level, afaik as early as the beginning of the 1990's.

Therefore, whilst their conduct may be within FIFA's current Rules, the fact that they are/were prepared unilaterally to overturn the whole spirit of their relationship with the IFA, even whilst they are simultaneously seeking closer co-operation with us (eg the Celtic Cup), shows how dishonourable they can be when it suits them.

Then again, I hardly need to remind football fans in the Republic about that - at least those who are aware eg of the way in which the FAI adminsters the LOI and club licensing etc.

Indeed, my attention was drawn the other day to the latest example of their willingness to ignore established, but inconvenient, rules and procedures etc i.e. the new shirts, where they call themselves "Ireland" on the badge etc...
http://www.faishop.com/section/19

"FAI"?

"F**k All Integrity"

Late Edit: Whilst posting this, I came across a reference to the Gentlemens' Agreement; apparently Sean Ryan confirms it in his 1997 book "The Boys in Green - The FAI International Story".
Anyone out there got a copy to hand?
GSpain perhaps?

[geysir]

News report that the IFA intend to appeal to CAS.
From the IFA statement
"The decision is taken purely on the grounds of upholding the FIFA statues of article 15 and 16 and that the current situation that exists puts the IFA at a clear disadvantage over all other 206 associations. "
Jesus wept, the great legal minds inside the IFA want FIFA to uphold article 15!! Well thank you very much IFA. Case closed as FIFA are certainly upholding article 15. Quite an astonishing example of ineptitude only surpassed by their request that FIFA uphold article 16
WTF has article 16 got to do with anything? That is the article FIFA wrote to regulate eligibility for the 4 UK federations. Article 16 is what all the 4 UK federations agreed to do amongst themselves to regulate how eligibility for their federations is worked out from one UK citizenship.

"The Irish Football Association are raising the matter of player eligibility with the Court of Arbitration for Sport"

from the FIFA statutes
1 "Appeals against final decisions passed by FIFA’s legal bodies and against decisions passed by Confederations, Members or Leagues shall be lodged with CAS within 21 days of notification of the deci- sion in question".

The FAI reply modestly
"the FAI remains confident that the CAS will not change the current position"

[Noelys Guitar]

Why should we stop recruiting Irish born players? And listen to the Linfield 'fans' at tonights match against St Pats. No hope for these people. Rule Britannia against St Pats. Phythonesque stuff. You could hear the English commentator starting to cringe.

[SilkCut]

Why should we stop recruiting Irish born players?

Exactly, if they choose to play for us over the north thats hard luck. The Northeners don't seem to understand that many of their population consider themselves Irish before British or Northern Irish and dont have the same attachment to the NI football team as an Englishman has to England or a Welshman to Wales (I would say Scotsman to Scotland but they appear to prefer Ireland too!) Its a completely unique situation and one the IFA and FAI have to either live with or put aside their differences and form an all Ireland team.

[Paddy Garcia]

Therefore, whilst their conduct may be within FIFA's current Rules, the fact that they are/were prepared unilaterally to overturn the whole spirit of their relationship with the IFA, even whilst they are simultaneously seeking closer co-operation with us (eg the Celtic Cup), shows how dishonourable they can be when it suits them.

Wanted to avoid this debate, but really laughed that you think you can talk about dishonour. You might think there is more dishonour in:

• • selecting players like Taylor with no link whatsoever to N Ireland
  • the abuse offered by your own fans now on OWC
  • the Neil Lennon incidents
  • a dictatorial attitude in seeking to prevent Irish lads representing their country
  • seeking to overturn the ruling of the GFA, when it suits
  • the endemic sectarianism associated with the home of NI football
  • union and political flags still common place at games in particular at Linfield
  • your own acronym for the FAI in this post, which I think is in pretty poor form
  • only last year a man killed in Coleraine by football fans celebrating winning the league.
  
  

Are you really proud of the relationship the IFA & Co have had with the Irish team/supporters over the last 30/40 years. Hardly something worth preserving unless you relished some very unsavory events over the years.

I know a lot is being done by some very good people to move on & things are greatly improved, but you need to take a reality check. The great & the good at the FAI may well be a hopeless bunch, but when it comes to dishonour you might think there are better targets for your accusations.

Duffy & Gibson's decision should be respected, as should diversity.