Player eligibility row

[Scooby Doo]

First of all all Northerners aren't the same otherwise there wouldn't have been any issues(!), but I know what you mean and agree totally.
This is an interesting pyschological study into what happens when you do not engage with the other strand of the community with which you live.
You only hear one point of view all the time, and take it as accepted fact as it is unchallenged.
When stuff like these "defections" and "poaching" happen, your cosy little world is shattered. Of course these are neither "defections" nor "poaching", but again you think that due to the fact that you have dismissed all other points of view.

Sadly this seems to be STILL the attitude of the predominantly Unionist fan base of the NI football team.


So they have gone running to Switzerland, where the FAI (if they need to even turn up) will make mincemeat of them.


Have they acknowledged any reasons as to why they may be to blame?
No

Have the engaged in the nationalist community from where these "defections" originate?
No


What have they said?
F**k Shane Duffy, I hope he breaks his leg the wee c*nt (from OWC)
F**k the FAI
F**k the beggars (this from the most subsidised region in western Europe!)
F**k Fifa
F**k Liam Brady

And the F**k All Integrity jibe from an organisation who's president is an Orangeman, signed a 100 year lease with an at-the-time openly sectarian club Linfield, and chased two of their clubs Derry City & Belfast Celtic out of their league simply because they were predominantly Catholic?


And yet, after all this, they expect to have a "gentlemans agreement" with the FAI?
Are the IFA a group of gentleman?
What sort of gentlemen, when charged with administrating football in all of NI, choose themselves to play an anthem which alienated nearly half its population?
Seeks to go against the spirit of the bitterly negotiated GFA, which has brought us some stability after 3 decades of conflict?

The FAI are not the special case here.
NI, England, Scotland & Wales are the special cases. The others know it, and they will not support the IFA.

Here are some things the IFA should do (for the sake of balance):

-Change their anthem immediately to something neutral (Danny Boy may be a dirge but it was good enough for Barry McGuigan and others). Not just talking hot air about it, DO IT.They could call EGM and do it within a week if they wanted.
-Openly apologise to the nationalist community for the disgraceful behavior to their supporters, players AND clubs over the years
-Change their name from the Irish Football Association, as they only appear to be "irish" in any way, shape or form when they are trying to twist "their" interpretation of eligibility rules
-Stop calling the FAI decision sectarian, when GSTQ & No Surrender blast out from Linfield 15%'s home ground, Windsor Park


The IFA and the bigotry of its fans are ENTIRELY responsible for this situation. They have been a total and utter disgrace for the last number of decades.

After the death threats and defections, the English anthem still bellows out around WP. If you have access, check out the disgusting attitude of the NI fans on the OWC forum towards the Republic and its supporters regarding this. And try and reconcile this with nationalist fans wanting to share an allegiance to a team (& stadium) where this is the representative view.


However,
in a Machiavellian way,
the IFA could turn out to be the best recruitment agency the FAI will ever have had...

That was an excellent post Dan. Enjoyed reading it.

[DannyInvincible]

As for a special rule for Ireland, forget it. The Russian fed with a similar Russian population in Latvia and smaller minorities in Estonia, Ukraine etc, will not allow a situation that would compromise losing possibly their best ever player, who feels Russian and wants to play for Russia, to another country.

Forgive me if this has been mentioned since as I haven't had time to go through everything that's been posted in detail, but is it the case that Russia offers citizenship extraterritorially and players with such citizenship are eligible to play for Russia? What player are you referring to exactly? Excuse my ignorance, ha. I don't think the IFA have a leg to stand on here, but this would only compound it in the minds of those in FIFA. It's just an unfortunate reality for them. Irish nationality is an indisputable and internationally-agreed birthright of those born in the north.

[lopez]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned since as I haven't had time to go through everything that's been posted in detail, but is it the case that Russia offers citizenship extraterritorially and players with such citizenship are eligible to play for Russia? What player are you referring to exactly? Excuse my ignorance, ha. I don't think the IFA have a leg to stand on here, but this would only compound it in the minds of those in FIFA. It's just an unfortunate reality for them. Irish nationality is an indisputable and internationally-agreed birthright of those born in the north.

This is a purely hypothetical scenario. Basically in the immediate post Soviet era, Latvia and Estonia would not grant citizenship to anyone born in their country that could not speak fluently the national language. Consequently, the only citizenship open for most ethnic Russians was Russian citizenship. Many Russians in the Baltic states were third generation, but others went further. As the countries entered the EU this has changed and perhaps the Russian citizenship laws have changed too, but with the hoo-hah over a Soviet statue last year and Putin and co.s general agitation, ethnic Russians have not entered into the spirit of taking on a new citizenship. You can also pull in parts of Eastern Ukraine into this scenario, especially the Crimean Peninsular that was never a part of Ukraine and was only put into the Soviet Republic in 1945 by the undemocratically elected Politburo.

Bosnia is another matter. Many Serbs there have refused to have anything to do with the Bosnian state, and in light of Kosovo, I think it is only a matter of time before Srpska either declares independence or 'rejoins' Serbia.

What the citizen requirements are of both these countries are, I'm not sure about. As an aside, I believe Hungary no longer recognises citizenship extra-territorially, although up to recently they did (I know a Serbian-Hungarian who has citizenship solely through this). I'm not sure about Germany but certainly until the new century, it would grant citizenship to ethnic Germans - including some from Kazakhstan whose ancestors settled there during the reign of Catherine the Great (1762 - 1796), and the Hamish Community in the US - more readily than anyone born in Germany with no German connections.

Point is, Ireland is not the only country with minorities outside the state. How will the IFA appeal play with some other countries?

[DannyInvincible]

Cheers, lopez. Interesting post. Is there any precedent for this internationally that you know of though; the calling up of players born outside the jurisdiction with no immediate link to that territory through parentage or grand-parentage other than a citizenship awarded extra-territorially? Not saying there ought to be to justify the calling-up of northern-born players as Northern Ireland's constitutional status is a very rare one, if not internationally unique, but in the minds of FIFA, it might compound that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Another interesting factor I note is that the examples you mention seem to deal with the awarding of citizenship based on ethnicity ('jus sanguinis'). Irish citizenship awarded to those from the north is slightly different though, to the best of my rather limited constitutional knowledge. It is primarily awarded 'jus soli' or by birthright (although I'm aware that the 27th constitutional amendment modified this slightly a few years ago). In effect, though, an Ulster Protestant of, say, Scottish descent or ethnicity by a few generations, or whatever you want to call it, qualifies for Irish citizenship by his birth on the island, if he'd so wish to accept such an honour, of course. :P Could an ethnic Estonian, say, with no apparent Russian ancestry be granted Russian citizenship by virtue of being born in Estonia, or does the Russian government merely offer citizenship to those who can prove Russian ethnicity beyond even their grandparents?

[Mr_Parker]

When I think about it, the IFA are not appealing the decision FIFA made, instead they are asking FIFA to uphold the decision.
What are CAS going to say except a resounding yes, that FIFA are upholding the eligibility statutes that were rewritten and accepted May 2008.

Not only do the IFA still not understand the statutes, they are using the same failed argument (that FIFA must uphold the statutes) as last time.

Spot on. That's exactly how their statement read to me too.

[Nedser]

Players do not have to prove their nationality by producing any document to satisy FIFA in order to play for a country. There is no such requirement.

So FIFA just take the players word for it? I find that hard to believe,. Can provide some source for that claim? I also clearly remember a section in Tony Cascarino's autobiography talking about having to get an Irish passport before he could play for us, you might remember too as it was highly controversial, because he made out that he bent the rules to do so.

[tetsujin1979]

what happened to Cascarino was that FIFA changed the rules. Think it was around 1994 when they said he needed an Irish passport to play for the Republic, previous to that he was fine with just a UK passport, and I think a statement from the government but he definitely didn't have an Irish passport until then. He wasn't sure he would actually be awarded a passport, but he was awarded one without any troubles. IIRC when his book was released, FIFA said that since the Irish government had awarded the passport, they considered him eligible to play for Ireland.

[Nedser]

I don't think it does muddy the waters. The issue is whether it's reasonable for someone to play for two different teams. You could apply it anywhere (the reason FIFA changed their rules was under pressure from French-speaking countries in North and West Africa who wanted to be able to pick the children or grandchildren of expats who'd already played for underage international sides in France.

It does muddy the waters, because FIFA's eligibility criteria are based on nationality, and Northern Irish "nationality" doesn't exist in law. As I previously pointed out, there are actually 2 distinct issues being debated here, the second of which is whether it's reasonable to play for 2 different teams. I actually agree with your view on that question though.

Britain's dispensation (which isn't unique, the Faroe Islands for example isn't a sovereign country) simply follows from us 'inventing' international football in the 19th. RoI doesn't have an advantage so much as an unusual* system of offering citizenship to people outside the country (* no criticism of this implied).

The Faroe Islands situation is very different. It's not a fully independent country, but is certainly more independent than NI. For example, it's not part of the EU and has its own currency.

FIFA- quite reasonably- uses the name RoI to avoid confusion, since its members include the two international teams in Ireland. They didn't invent the name- when I lived in Dublin people often referred to the country as the Republic, although I realise this is less so now.
[

Unless you are very old, you started living in Dublin after FIFA started using that term. Again this is inconsistent on FIFA's part, and comes down to the UK's special position of power. AFAIK, Ireland is the only country in the world whose international football team has to be different to the name of the state. The 2 teams on one island thing should make no difference. There are two teams in Korea, but FIFA calls both by their official names. They do not use the common terms "South Korea" and "North Korea" - they use "Korea Republic" and "Korea Democratic Peoples Republic". No need to avoid confusion there apparently. Presumably because the UK government didn't put any pressure on them about that one.

[sligobhoy67]

1. These are Irish men wanting to play for Ireland! They have as much right as anyone in Donegal, Dublin or Dingle to play for THEIR country. Have people from the south of the country really developed such a "Free State mindset" these days?

2. The Northern Ireland say they want to keep these players but they do nothing what so ever accommodate them - infact they have done the opposite - they introduce blue highlights to there home shirt, the continue to use the Ulster Banner flag as "their flag" despite it being a symbol of Loyalism in the six counties and they continue to sing God Save the Queen prior to games!!

As long as they want to play for us they should be welcomed and encouraged.

If they IFA want to continue likes its a "Protestant country for a Protestant people" then who can blame these kids??

[Mr_Parker]

So FIFA just take the players word for it? I find that hard to believe,. Can provide some source for that claim?

You want me to provide evidence of something that does not happen?

The closest you get is when players are required to prove their identity, not their nationality, to the match delegate as per match regulations. FIFA require a passport for this purpose. However, that does not need to be the passport relating to the particular country you are playing for as confirmed by FIFA in 2006 following the Irish Governments intervention when the IFA tried to force NI players to carry British Passports.

The only time a player/association may be required to prove nationality is if an opposing team challenge the eligibity of a player following a game.

[Nedser]

You want me to provide evidence of something that does not happen?

I want you to provide evidence that the process is as you have so definitively stated it is. You must have some way of "knowing" this, so tell us what your belief is based on. It's a fairly simple concept.

The closest you get is when players are required to prove their identity, not their nationality, to the match delegate as per match regulations. FIFA require a passport for this purpose. However, that does not need to be the passport relating to the particular country you are playing for as confirmed by FIFA in 2006 following the Irish Governments intervention when the IFA tried to force NI players to carry British Passports.

Again until you can provide a source for your claim that FIFA only want proof of identity and not nationality, then it's just another opinion. I believe that the general position is that you have to have a passport from the country that you want to represent. Again though, they have to make exceptions for NI, not least because NI is not a country and therefore doesn't issue passports, so it would be impossible for FIFA to apply the same requirement to them. My understanding is that FIFA initially (and not unreasonably) took the view that anyone playing for a UK national team should have a UK passport, but the Irish govt then pointed out that the unusual constitutional position in NI means that being born there does not mean you are a British subject or have to hold a British passport, and since the GFA people from NI are equally entitled to Irish citizenship (and passports).

[Mr_Parker]

I want you to provide evidence that the process is as you have so definitively stated it is. You must have some way of "knowing" this, so tell us what your belief is based on. It's a fairly simple concept.

All you need is here.

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/docume...ary/index.html

[lopez]

Cheers, lopez. Interesting post. Is there any precedent for this internationally that you know of though; the calling up of players born outside the jurisdiction with no immediate link to that territory through parentage or grand-parentage other than a citizenship awarded extra-territorially? Not saying there ought to be to justify the calling-up of northern-born players as Northern Ireland's constitutional status is a very rare one, if not internationally unique, but in the minds of FIFA, it might compound that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Another interesting factor I note is that the examples you mention seem to deal with the awarding of citizenship based on ethnicity ('jus sanguinis'). Irish citizenship awarded to those from the north is slightly different though, to the best of my rather limited constitutional knowledge. It is primarily awarded 'jus soli' or by birthright (although I'm aware that the 27th constitutional amendment modified this slightly a few years ago). In effect, though, an Ulster Protestant of, say, Scottish descent or ethnicity by a few generations, or whatever you want to call it, qualifies for Irish citizenship by his birth on the island, if he'd so wish to accept such an honour, of course. :P Could an ethnic Estonian, say, with no apparent Russian ancestry be granted Russian citizenship by virtue of being born in Estonia, or does the Russian government merely offer citizenship to those who can prove Russian ethnicity beyond even their grandparents?

With regards to Russia and Serbia, these are officially multi-ethnic states, so the choice of Jus Sanguinis as a basis for ethnicity is perhaps a step too far. Certainly I can't see that an Estonian born the other side of the border would be denied citizenship. This was not the case with Germany (and Austria and Switzerland) who based citizenship on Jus Sanguinis.

With regards to Ireland, it is a policy that nationality is devoid of ethnicity and religion. It has always been the case for that because of the Protestants that have aided independence. Look at the Protestants with English or Scottish names that have played prominent roles in Irish nationalism. I've been reading about the Clan na Gael in the states in the 1800s and even one of John Devoy's closest chums was a Presbyterian. Then there is the story of one of Paisley's mates in the seventies apparently 'going native' without converting to the whore of Rome. (I can find the names of both these for later). Any basis of Irish citizenship on ethnic origins or religion would therefore be repugnant. Which brings us back to football. One argument is that the FAI is approaching without being solicitated, nationalist youths in the North. OK, if someone is called Seamus O Laoghaire, then fair enough. But Darren Gibson? How would the FAI come to the conclusion that he was 'game' with a name like that?

[ArdeeBhoy]

And let's be honest, there are varying reasons for moving to the RoI side that are well known: English guys wouldn't get in their side, Gibson and McGeady were unhappy at having to give up a club trial for a Scotland or NI representative game and so on..

Except with the exception of Paul Butler (ex-Wolves, Leeds, Oldham), who qualified by marriage, no-one who's not eligible for a passport (or team) via the usual family links has ever played for Ireland, AFAIK. Unlike a Herr.M.Taylor.....
And virtually no-one in Ireland refers to it, except in the occasional misguided sporting context , as The 'Republic', FFS.

[Nedser]

All you need is here.

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/docume...ary/index.html

Any chance you could be slightly more precise than providing a link to every official document published by FIFA?

[tetsujin1979]

from the "Guidelines for FIFA Match Officials" http://pt.fifa.com/mm/document/tourn...s_en_38398.pdf
page 8

4. UPON ARRIVAL AT THE MATCH VENUE
As soon as he arrives, the commissioner shall fi x times with the host association for
the following formalities:
1. Verification of the players’ identity
2. Inspection of the stadium
3. Official meeting

4.1. Verification of the Players’ Identities
When checking the players’ identities against their passports, passport numbers (and players’ licences, if necessary) at the teams’ hotels, the commissioner shall make sure that:
– apart from himself, the only persons allowed into the room are the players themselves, the head of delegation, the head of administration, the president of the association (if he wishes), a representative from the other team’s delegation (if he wishes), the assistant to the commissioner and the delegation’s interpreter;
– the players who are entitled to take part in the match shall take turns to show their passports (and players’ licences, if any) for verifi cation. Should a player not be in possession of a passport, or if it has expired or has obviously been tampered with, he shall not be allowed to take part in the match. Identity cards or other similar documents cannot be used as a replacement for a passport. This decision is final.

You must present a valid passport to the referee before the game.

[yapster]

I am appalled and saddened that some on here advocate foreign born players with dubious Irish ancestry playing for Ireland over Irish born & bred players playing for Ireland. Priorities must be re-examined on this...

[geysir]

from the "Guidelines for FIFA Match Officials" http://pt.fifa.com/mm/document/tourn...s_en_38398.pdf
page 8

You must present a valid passport to the referee before the game.

As a proof of identity, just as Mr.P wrote.

[lopez]

I am appalled and saddened that some on here advocate foreign born players with dubious Irish ancestry playing for Ireland over Irish born & bred players playing for Ireland. Priorities must be re-examined on this...

Where do you think Belfast and Derry are? China?

[ArdeeBhoy]

To be fair Senor, think he was being ironic?

And response re.Tuesday noted.