Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Who would these "6 to 8" teams be?
Do you think a 6 to 8 team league is the answer to all our woes?
Actually I am not advocating a 6 or 8 team AIL. I believe that the Rugby model (celtic League) is about the only way we can hope to develop a domestic club structure that will stop all our best players emigrating to England and Scotland to fulfill their potential. No doubt there are a few die hard supporters of traditional RU clubs who regard the advent of The celtic League as heresy, but I think the majority would settle for a grand slam, a couple of heineken cups and the opportunity to watch regular top class sport in Ireland.
No it's an opinion and nonsense at that.
Why don't you worry about something else? For example, is Liverpool FC's debt levels sustainable? Is Liverpool FC not currently in "financial dire straits"? Maybe a merger of some sort is in order as a city the size of Liverpool can not sustain two Premiership clubs and the only way forward is a radical structural change to the professional game in Liverpool. That is a fact not an opinion!
That is an outrageous claim and no way is it a fact.
Both clubs have a huge supporter following, and crucially internationally too, not just in Liverpool.
No it's an opinion and nonsense at that
Why don't you worry about something else? For example, is Liverpool FC's debt levels sustainable? Is Liverpool FC not currently in "financial dire straits"? Maybe a merger of some sort is in order as a city the size of Liverpool can not sustain two Premiership clubs and the only way forward is a radical structural change to the professional game in Liverpool. That is a fact not an opinion!
Maybe the difference is that the fate of Liverpool FC matters to a very large number of people. Aldo and Rogan Taylor have had large numbers of pledges from Irish based fans supporting the "Share Liverpool" campaign. Liverpool's "problems" are in no way comparable to the parlous state of domestic socer in Ireland. EL teams and the EL itself is in decline precisely because not enough people care sufficiently for its product to go to games. What's your answer clever dick? Compel people to go to games, provide a state subsidy, ban players from going overseas or just muddle on with a domestic structure that has made virtually no competitve progress in 40 years.
Please I really am dying to know how you are going to fix it, or maybe you think that Irish football consumers should be grateful for a third class product.
No - it's time to face up to the facts. A cross-border competition with something like 6-8 teams is the only way forward. Bring Celtic and Rangers in and create franchise teams in the major English population centres. Many of the Premiership clubs are up to their eye balls in debts and it is not sustainable. Merge the lot of them and sort this mess out now.
Solution - clubs should not spend money they don't have (or offer players double contracts). Problem solved.
How would this "Celtic League" you propose work exactly?
Are you advocating adding Welsh and Scottish Clubs into the mix?
How, exactly, would it stop "our best players" going to England and Scotland to ply their trade?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
By paying them more money and giving them the chance to play in a league where they would be playing at a decent level and be able to fulfill their aspirations to play in internationals. Yes I would suggest that it be based on the top sides from the SPL (largely based in population centres with a big enough support base), maybe Cardiff, Swansea and a North Wales team focused on Wrexham / Deeside and franchise / merged teams from bothsides of the Irish border. It works very well for Rugby and without it every decent Irish player would have defected to the professional Guiness Premiership years ago.How would this "Celtic League" you propose work exactly?
Are you advocating adding Welsh and Scottish Clubs into the mix?
How, exactly, would it stop "our best players" going to England and Scotland to ply their trade?
The LOI has sustained itself for decades. As long as clubs are willing to not spend what they don't have, it will continue to sustain itself.
In fact, it is the kind of risky expansion that you advocate that has proven itself unsustainable, as pretty much all the clubs who tried it can testify.
1. Carrick shouldn't even consider going professional. They would be gone inside 3 months. Teams like Carrick/Larne/Ards/etc would be much better off as a local amatuer club, focusing on finding and developing local players, rather than paying people to come from accross the north to play for them. They can never compete with the "big 2", and trying to creates unsustainable financial pressures for them.
1. I don't believe the cure to arsonists in Carrick burning things is for the local football club to become full time, professional. I don't believe that Clubs in an AI 3rd or 4th tier (as Carrick would be in such a scenario) would be/should be full time, professional.
2. I have to confess that I take a different view on flags than you - and I'm not lying. Are you suggesting that national Flags should be prohibited from grounds North and South of the border?
Do you object to a Tricolour with Cliftonville FC, Belfast on it, for example?
Should, say, Shamrock Rovers fans be banned from bring Tricolours to matches?
I don't.
3. Ironically, you attempt to make a point about the Crues v Reds game on Boxing Day, and then say "both leagues lack combativeness".
The IL is heading for an exciting 2nd half to the season - looking forward to it.
How, exactly, would the addition of Linfield FC and Glentoran FC to the LOI Premier league, on a full time, professional, basis progress football on this island?
This question has been posed on numerous occassions, and has not been answered with anything but fluffy nonsense.
4. Do you honestly believe that an AI League will stop people being called naughty names?
There are several "nationalists" on the Linfield team - that sort of thing seems more of interest to you than me - I think of them as Linfield players - nothing more, nothing less.
5. Belfast Celtic are a Historical Society, not a football club. They don't have a terrace. They're gone. Get over it.
2. I don't think there should be any national flags of any discription in any IL ground. They are being used to mark out clubs as being the sectarian property of one community or the other. There is no shortage of protestants in the streets around Cliftonville, just as there is no shortage of Catholics on the Lisburn Road, but people bring those flags to IL grounds to make it clear they are not welcome at their local clubs because of their religion or political outlook. It might not annoy you, but it puts off the kind of people who the IL needs to attract.
3. My bad. Meant to say competitiveness
The reason for an AIL is simply that neither jurisdiction is big enough to support its clubs on anything but a hand to mouth basis. Realistically NI can support no more than half a dozen teams, and that isn't enough for a league.
Why it would improve things is it would make the Belfast sides the local professional clubs for people in outlying towns, like Carrick, Bangor, Newtownards, Larne and Antrim. That would boost attendances at the Belfast clubs allowing them to operate on a better financial footing, and allow the teams in those towns to exist as amatuer operations free from the expense of paying players in a vain effort to keep up.
When one looks at the facilities the GAA can provide in local communities, it is obvious local amatuer sports teams with local players enjoy significant goodwill in their community, and the business model works to the extent that they can build clubhouses, changing rooms and grandstands for small parish clubs.
4. There is no issue at all with the players in the IL (apart from the fact that the best of them miss out on the kind of training and development that would allow them to reach their full potential), the probelms exist on the terraces.
5. Scared of the competition? How many years would have to go by before you gave up on Linfield?
Last edited by backstothewall; 29/12/2009 at 5:36 PM.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
With regard to an all-Ireland league a question that could be asked is.
Would winning the league that contained for example the best 4 clubs in NI and the 8 best clubs in the Rep. be more of an achievment that winning any of the present two leagues.
In my opinion this would be a much better achievment and more prestigious than either of the present set ups.
It is also my belief that if(and its a big if) there could be guarantees of no fan trouble then there would be some media(tv) companies interested in promoting and covering such a league.
In the right conditions it would make sense but that does not mean its going to happen for a while at least.
But it probably will happen. (but when)
1. Why, then, did you drag up an incident whereby arsonists attacked part of the premises belonging to Carrick Rangers? What was your point?
They don't try and compete with the "big two" (They aren't even in the "big" league), and they do try and develop local players.
2. In your fantasy AI League, would you be advocating the banning of all National flags? I continue to uphold, support, and respect the right to bring National flags to football matches. I couldn't give two flying ones about the religious beliefs of people on the Cliftonville Road, Lisburn Road, or any other road. Where they say their prayers is absolutely no concern of mine.
3. You advocate clubs like Larne, Ards, Bangor and Carrick LOSING fans?
Belfast Clubs already enjoy the support of some people living in these towns.
The GAA model you cite is perhaps not the best comparison - the GAA has done little or nothing to foster cross community relations in Northern Ireland. It is an exclusively "nationalist" organisation. My county team (Antrim) hasn't ever had a Unionist play in it's senior county football team in my lifetime - Antrim is a predominantly "Unionist" County. Derive from that what you will, but don't be preaching to me about the GAA being a role model for community relations.
4. Do you think the problems "on the terraces" would cease to exist in your fantasy AI League? How so?
Two of the best supported clubs in Britain have big, long standing problems with sectarianism - I often wonder if they would be as big as they are without those undertones. Would you start by banning National flags at Old Firm games there?
In a top of the table fantasy AI League game between say Shamrock Rovers and Linfield, do you think there would be no nasty name calling "from the terraces", and no National flags on display on both sides?
Like you, I've issues with sectarian chanting - I have no issues whatsoever with National flags
5. Belfast Celtic are not "competition". They are as dead as a dodo. Linfield FC have proved that they can compete with the best the island has to offer, and I would not "fear" the onset of an AI "Premier" League in terms of our Club being a major player in it.
I remain totally unconvinced of how such a league could actually work to the degree that it is the saviour of domestic football on this island - in fact, there is more to suggest it would be detrimental to many clubs.
Last edited by Not Brazil; 29/12/2009 at 8:15 PM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
There can be no such guarantees.
Crowd trouble and football related violence are (sadly) features of the sport throughout the world.
Eradicating the crowd trouble existing in our respective leagues might be a good starting point.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
[QUOTE=third policeman;1298130 franchise / merged teams from bothsides of the Irish border. It works very well for Rugby and without it every decent Irish player would have defected to the professional Guiness Premiership years ago.[/QUOTE]
How would fans of Bohs and Rovers feel if their teams were "merged"?
What Irish rugby teams have merged with the establishment of the Celtic League?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
1. Wasn't refering exclusively to Carrick, but they like a dozen other clubs are all attempting to get to play with the big boys, or are in the IL Premiership now with no chance of ever winning it. Small town clubs simply can't expect to pay their players with such small crowds. it can't be sustained and there are ample examples of towns where clubs have gone to the wall trying to do it.1. Why, then, did you drag up an incident whereby arsonists attacked part of the premises belonging to Carrick Rangers? What was your point?
They don't try and compete with the "big two" (They aren't even in the "big" league), and they do try and develop local players.
2. In your fantasy AI League, would you be advocating the banning of all National flags? I continue to uphold, support, and respect the right to bring National flags to football matches. I couldn't give two flying ones about the religious beliefs of people on the Cliftonville Road, Lisburn Road, or any other road. Where they say their prayers is absolutely no concern of mine.
3. You advocate clubs like Larne, Ards, Bangor and Carrick LOSING fans?
Belfast Clubs already enjoy the support of some people living in these towns.
The GAA model you cite is perhaps not the best comparison - the GAA has done little or nothing to foster cross community relations in Northern Ireland. It is an exclusively "nationalist" organisation. My county team (Antrim) hasn't ever had a Unionist play in it's senior county football team in my lifetime - Antrim is a predominantly "Unionist" County. Derive from that what you will, but don't be preaching to me about the GAA being a role model for community relations.
4. Do you think the problems "on the terraces" would cease to exist in your fantasy AI League? How so?
Two of the best supported clubs in Britain have big, long standing problems with sectarianism - I often wonder if they would be as big as they are without those undertones. Would you start by banning National flags at Old Firm games there?
In a top of the table fantasy AI League game between say Shamrock Rovers and Linfield, do you think there would be no nasty name calling "from the terraces", and no National flags on display on both sides?
Like you, I've issues with sectarian chanting - I have no issues whatsoever with National flags
5. Belfast Celtic are not "competition". They are as dead as a dodo. Linfield FC have proved that they can compete with the best the island has to offer, and I would not "fear" the onset of an AI "Premier" League in terms of our Club being a major player in it.
I remain totally unconvinced of how such a league could actually work to the degree that it is the saviour of domestic football on this island - in fact, there is more to suggest it would be detrimental to many clubs.
2. I don't think it is helpful to allow anyone into a ground in NI with divisive flags. If I ran a club they certainly wouldn't be allowed in. In an AIL i think it would be simplier not to allow them in any fixture involving a northern club (I don't think the protestants of Cork would be to offended if someone from St. Pats brings a tricolour along to a fixture). But its not something that should have to wait until an AIl comes about. It should happen tomorrow, if not yesterday.
3. It should be possible to preserve the support of both clubs. Wha I propose isn't aimed at dividing the existing Irish League fanbase of teams like Bangor and Ards amongst the Belfast sides. i doubt Carrick fans will give up on their local side because Linfield are in an All-Ireland Premier League.
What I am suggesting is trying to bring new fans to the game. When Rugby brought about the Celtic League attendances at Ballymena and Dungannon weren't effected by Ulster monopolising the support. Rather than that happening new fans came to the sport (like me), attracted by the media friendly, entertaining product. And the benefits of that have filtered down to the clubs, directly through cash coming from the Ulster Branch to imrove facilites etc, and indirectly through an increased pool of fans of the sport, who have been to Ravenhill on a Friday night, and might go see a local game on a Saturday.
It shouldn't be that hard to timetable fixtures to allow people to take in a professional game, and a local game, on the same weekend. Rugby manages it easily. Ulster on a Friday, AIL on a Saturday. Job done
And when did I ever say that the GAA was good for cross community relations? The only point I was making is that even in the smallest parish the local GAC has a clubhouse and changing facilites that would put most Irish League clubs to shame.
Attendances are also helped when everyone on the team is a local. Family, friends and colleagues tend to come along if the players have a stake in the local community, rather than driving 20 miles twice a week to train with a bunch of lads driving in from other places.
4. If our problems with sectarianism were as mild as the problems Scotland have, we wouldn't need to have this conversation. How they deal with it isn't applicable to our situation, as they haven't lost 3000 lives to sectarian conflict recently. and if people knew that their flags were going to be taken down by stewards, and they were going to miss the end of the game, they would stop bringing them soon enough. It has been possible to stamp out much more difficult things from football than flags.
5. What can i say. Belfast Celtic will rise again!!
Last edited by backstothewall; 29/12/2009 at 10:29 PM.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
1. You cited the fire at Carrick Rangers with a view to reasoning for an AI League. I fail to se what bearing an AI League would have had on a fire at Carrick Rangers.
There are plenty of teams in most leagues that I know of who "can't compete with the big boys", and "have no realistic chance of winning it". There are plenty of examples of Clubs (not least in your league) where paying to much to players has caused them either to go to the wall, or get into serious difficulties. My fear in an AI "Premier" League situation would be that more Clubs would suffer this fate.
2. Again, I state my disagreement with you on the flags thing. I don't find national flags offensive. Shams v Linfield in Dublin - you'd ban National flags?
When Belfast Celtic rise again
I haven't a clue what the religious beliefs of people from Cork has to do with the debate - you do seem rather fixated on religious beliefs. Why?
I presume most residents of Cork are "nationalists", regardless of where they happen to say their prayers?
3. Club rugby in Northern Ireland is watched by three men and a dog.
I find it interesting that you attend Ulster Rugby games - I was a regular attender myself up until the IRFU deemed Belfast an "away" venue for an International match (I live 15 mins walk from Ravenhill) - in my experience, there were always plenty of Ulster Banners on display amongst the supporters - have these been banned?
I was in Dublin in 1999 for a famous game when 40,000 Ulstermen were in attendance - thousands of Ulster Banners on display, and not a peep of any offence being taken.
Do you join in the chants of "Stand Up For The Ulstermen" at Ravenhill?
How come that's ok at a rugby match, but when Northern Ireland fans sing it, we have MOPEs jumping on the offended bus?
Have Tricolours been banned from Ireland Rugby matches? Afterall, the team supposedly represents players from both traditions on the island, many of whom would not consider the Tricolour to be their National Flag.
4. I can assure you that sectarianism at games in Scotland is on a much wider scale than exists on this island - check out the OF game this weekend. Check out the National Flags on display at both ends of the ground. Stewards won't be taking them down either. Celtic's "Irishness" and Rangers "Britishness" is an important part of the metabolism/history of both Clubs. Sectarianism in Scottish football is not the sole domain of the OF either. I believe sectarianism can be stamped out, without the need to tell people they cannot bring a National flag to a match. Tell Celtic fans that Tricolours are banned from their matches (do the Club still fly one above Parkhead?), and see what happens - I'd guess you'd see more Tricolours than ever appear.
5.
As I alluded to earlier in the thread, I am not anti AI "Premier" League per se -I feel it is worthy of debate. The "mechanics" of it are the problem - too many ifs and buts, and no substance - not least pertaining to the financial risks.
Last edited by Not Brazil; 30/12/2009 at 10:34 AM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
An understandable (freudian) slip of the tongue, considering the circumstances.
You are right. The LOI is sustainable so long as it remains sustainably crap. Clubs who have attempted to progress within the LOI structure have become unstuck. but that is exactly my point. The evidence is that the quality of domestic club football wont get better with the existing stucture and number of clubs.
Again nonsense.
It's easily arguable that the quality of LOI football has never being better than what it is now. The evidence is the league's current European ranking and the growing number of current and potential international players that have a LOI background. (Compare this with the Jack Charlton era). Look at the current player threads on the international forum for more evidence; Anthony Stokes, David Meyler, Kevin Doyle, Stephen Ward and Gary Deegan - all players that have been with LOI clubs.
And again, isn't time you worry about your own club's future. A club that is massively in debt and that is never going to win their domestic league any time soon. How competitive is the Premiership when only 2 or 3 clubs have a realistic chance of winning it? Shouldn't you be proposing the same radical changes for English football as you are for Irish football? After all the short falls for both leagues is pretty much the same, except there are on a much large scale for the Premiership.
If it's going to be that radical, it might not start from an assumption which actually looks a bit conservative. Wales- a smaller country, but with a century's tradition of professional teams in the English League- sustains TWO playing to a decent level. That's even before we start on the tedium of this notional elite playing each other four or more times in the League each season.
Heh. I like your assumption that this tiny minority will be countered by the silent majority clamoring for your new league. But it looks rather like a complete fantasy to me.Of course the tiny minority who follow EL or IL will protest and vested interests will obstruct the possibility of mergers and transnational league structures and club football in Ireland will continue to be a quaint but declining sideshow
Our teams will continue to fail (in your teRms) because Ireland (like other places of similar population elsewhere in Europe, the eastern Baltic or the trans Caucasus, say) just aren't ever going to have the large pool of good players that more or less guarantees qualification for tournaments and a reasonable chance of winning them. That wouldn't change if Azermolduania merged into one team any more than if they continue to compete separately.Much the same way as our two international teams will also fail to realise the potential for success that I believe the overwhelming majority of football supporters across the political and sectarian divide yearn for
Like you, I couldn't make it to the game and listened on Radio Ulster. As you say, an embarrassment to the club and probably beyond, and Baxter will deserve whatever punishment the IFA throw at him. But these things happen everywhere occasionally, including in Europe's top leagues.Where the flags and banners on show are maybe less provocative than those in the New Lodge or Mount Vernon. I don't think you can be so confident that there wouldn't be a repeat in a smaller, more expensive league.
Disagree entirely. Baxter's comments were disgraceful; all media reports I've seen and heard suggest he and the four players all deserved the reds; the players ruined the game by behaving like a primary school rabble. Maybe just as well I wasn't there- Baxter or Beaver Morrow might well have smacked me
Hang on- you've listed a number of reasons why it isn't plausible in the foreseeable future!
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