QuoteNo - and, I'm happy to say we're in agreement on that.Originally Posted by The Fly
Have I ever suggested anything to the contrary?
No - and, I'm happy to say we're in agreement on that.
Last edited by Not Brazil; 07/12/2009 at 4:51 PM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Due to personal reservations about the lack of objectivity displayed recently by some of the Moderators, I am not inclined to continue posting on this Board at present (though that's another story).
However, I do still browse from time-to-time, including this thread, where I've noted that you and NB (and others) are "fighting the good fight" entirely without need for my input!
That said, I will this once break my own "self-denying ordinance" to make one salient (imo conclusive) argument against an AI side, which has been totally overlooked by everyone in this whole debate.
Various posters have alluded to the existence (illogicality?) of eg the UK having four international teams. However, any understanding of FIFA, and how they organise international football, explains why this should be so, and conversely, why it would prevent any merging of the two Irish Associations (at least before political unity).
Basically, FIFA's concept of "footballing nationhood" is an entirely separate construct from that of political/constitutional nationhood. Which explains why, for instance, FIFA has 208 Member Associations, whereas the UN only has 192 Member States. This disparity is accounted for not only by the UK, but also by Palestine/Israel and Denmark/Faroes etc.
Anyhow, FIFA is a Member-led organisation, which can and does operate outwith any political interference which it does not like (eg PR China and Taiwan, Israel and the Arab world, Basque Country and Spain, the two Koreas etc). It also receives its income, directly and indirectly, from its Associations, rather than from Governments.
Therefore, it is always minded to maintain its own structures and organisation, entirely as it sees fit. And key to this is the principle that every Association, no matter how big/successful or small/unsuccessful, has an equal vote in the running of the organisation.
The corollary of this, however, must be that each National Association must compete on its own resources/player pool, however small that may be i.e. if the likes of the Vanuatu FA is to have its own separate vote in Congress etc, then it must make do with entering a team solely from its own Association's resources. Consequently, whenever countries like the USSR or Yugoslavia have broken up, their former constituents have always been recognised as separate (footballing) nations, even though this might be expected to make them less "successful" etc.
Moreover, for historical and other reasons, FIFA has occasionally been prepared to recognise that one (political) country may have more than one Football Association, even though that splintering usually means that the (political) nation's footballing effectiveness may be fractured.
However, whilst FIFA may permit one Nation to have more than one team, they have never allowed two or more separate Nations to combine to make one international football team, nor would they ever (imo).
For if you think about it, such a concept negates the very basis of the organisation and the way it has always administered the international game. Moreover, any proposal eg by the Benelux countries to recognise their historic shared heritage and enter a single team in the World Cup etc (i.e. in place of Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg) would undoubtedly be blocked on practical grounds by the likes of Germany, France and Italy etc, on the basis that such a new team could conceivably go all the way to winning the World Cup, rather than merely reaching two finals (Netherlands 1974 and 1978).
Of course, I am not suggesting that a single "Ireland" team would ever be likely to win it instead(!), but there is no way imo that FIFA could allow such a precedent, for fear that eg Spain and Portugal might apply to merge, thereby producing a team that could eg knock Brazil off their perch as the "biggest" team in world football.
So there you have it - there is no way that FIFA would, or even could, countenance two separate political entities deciding to combine into one international football team before any political unification.
And even then, political unification need not automatically presage a merger of the two pre-existing Football Associations, as the continued existence of
the Hong Kong FA and international team demonstrates - even after HK's reabsorption into the PR China!
In which case, those people who dream of seeing my international team disbanded to make way for a single Irish international football team will have to wait until there is political unity - and even then, might have to wait some more!
"Irish Football Association - Original and (George) Best!"
Last edited by EalingGreen; 07/12/2009 at 5:12 PM.
A good, articulate post EG.However, whilst FIFA may permit one Nation to have more than one team, they have never allowed two or more separate Nations to combine to make one international football team, nor would they ever (imo).
So there you have it - there is no way that FIFA would, or even could, countenance two separate political entities deciding to combine into one international football team before any political unification.
However, the point you are making here, in relation to this discussion, would apply more to the UK and the Republic of Ireland, as political entities, deciding to combine to form one international football team.
Last edited by The Fly; 07/12/2009 at 10:40 PM.
Northern Ireland, politically, is part of the United Kingdom.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
why are posters who support the Republic of Ireland so keen to have a combined team? It makes no sense to me on any level.
I never want NI to be amalgamated with the Republic, at least not unless there is no longer a Northern Ireland. Aside from the fact that they would likely not add to us in any way whatsoever, they have their own proud history in football. We have ours. I feel no affinity to Unionist Northern Irish folk, they are completely different people to me, in my opinion, and i have no desire to have them play for my country. Im sure they feel the same.
All this crap about religion, culture, GAA etc is redundant as is this thread. It just gives the usual parties a soapbox for their own beliefs and prejudices.
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
It would be interesting to see the effect if one or two players from the six counties became big stars for the Republic.
Would this encourage more young players to declare for the Republic and if this were to happen would the NI team begin to wither on the vine.
Hopefully Darron Gibson and Marc Wilson do make a big impression for the Republic. This may encourage young Duffy at Everton to play for the republic.
I think the opportunity for International players to strut their stuff at home matches in a ground like the new Landsdowne Road may also have a positive impact on players choosing to play for the republic.
So long as it is within the rules I see nothing wrong with players taking their choice.
Err........I know!
I think it's inevitable that some players from Northern Ireland make it big for the Republic - Gibson has every chance of becoming a top class footballer.
Obviously the current eligibility rules don't help the IFA - however, them's the rules, and we've got to get on with it.
In the hypothetical situation that every "nationalist" youngster in Northern Ireland decided to play fror the Republic Of Ireland (not going to happen, as decisions "for footballing reasons" will come into play), it would be a terrible shame. However, the IFA will always have a pool of players ready, willing, and able to play for the Association's International representative teams with pride, honour, and dignity.
The basic rule of thumb is this - if you don't want to play for us, good riddance.
Wounded, but not killed, would be the outcome for the IFA.
I think that such a scenario would serve to further strengthen the determination of Northern Ireland supporters to see their team remain autonomous - in any eventually.
Last edited by Not Brazil; 07/12/2009 at 6:07 PM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
An honourable position NB.
This is an interesting point EG and something those calling for an united team should consider. Indeed the current application of the eligibility rules with respect to the island of Ireland highlights the concept of footballing nationhood as it permits NI born players to play for the team representing their nation. Given your understanding of the footballing nationhood concept, it's somewhat amusing to think back to your stance on the eligibility rules thread.
If you changed the "good riddance" to the "best of luck to ya" then i would not have much argument with that
Within all of that, there are big challenges for the IFA...not least, what can we do to limit the leakage?
As you are aware, I have my views on that (Anthem etc), and I firmly believe that everything the IFA do in relation to these questions should be for the betterment and strengthening of the "Northern Ireland" brand.
The IFA have big decisions to make - whatever they do will not be to the liking of everyone.
Undoubtedly, we have supporters who feel that any change = capitulation to those who seek our demise.
I firmly believe those supporters are misguided, but I have to take on board their views, respect them, and offer my (alternative) views.
The one thing that Northern Ireland fans have in common is a burning desire to see our International team progress and flourish - different ideas on how that can happen, grown up discussions to be had, and big decisions to be made.
I don't doubt that we will rise to the challenges, and work things out for our benefit - whatever deck of cards we're dealt.
Last edited by Not Brazil; 07/12/2009 at 6:36 PM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
How about a simple, polite, "Goodbye"?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Right, with you now. You're basing sweeping generalisations on the entire German nation on listening to some CDs and reading modern novels. Fine, if a bit superficial.
Ha ha, be serious if you can. You're only hostile to our culture to the extent of wanting to abolish it. Where did you come up with that pearl, the Ring Cycle? Sorrows of young Janey? I despair sometimesThe point is, that nationalists are not hostile to British culture in the same way as most unionist politicians (who are elected by protestants/unionists) are downright hostile to Irish culture. Is it any wonder nationalists get ****ed off?
You've just named one, famous Seamus.I'm scratching my head to think of any British person who has done anything to champion Irish culture (nor do I expect them to!)
Hardly. It follows from the tangible evidence that hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland who don't 'identify' with it (probably the majority of them) demonstrate that lack of identity by by voting in every election for parties whose main political program is that, er Northern Ireland shouldn't exist. Do keep up.
Depends. If you replaced that gently loaded question with a more honest- if equally loaded- alternative, maybe not. How about "do you think that the larger of the two football associations in Ireland take over the other, which would then cease to exist?", then the likelihood would be rather reduced, don't ye think?If one were to take Northern Ireland as an entity, and ask each person "do you think that the two football associations in Ireland, the FAI and IFA, should amalgamate and as a result, produce one representative international football team?", then I would say there would be a good chance of the overall result being - Yes! But, that is not the point
Only in the sense that the Black Mountain's one of the only hills overlooking Belfast. I'm able to support Northern Ireland sportsmen and women, and teams, both individually, under the NI name, and in larger all-Ireland and all-Britain teams. As I've mentioned, I'd prefer a NI cricket side, but the absence of one isn't that big a problem.Because, the Northern Ireland international team is one of the only outlets for people of the 'Irish' unionist persuasion in NI, and for the purposes of this discussion - on the island as a whole, to follow or support in any kind of competitive arena
That's more like it.it's better to just let things take their course naturally
Last edited by Gather round; 07/12/2009 at 7:20 PM.
It might, if that big impression happened. On the other hand, it might not. Aren't you just indulging in wishful thinking? I'm guessing Duffy's more likely to be influenced by the guys he's already playing with in the NI u-19 and u-21 teams.
I think that's probaby irrelevant. Lansdowne's an impressive stadium, but top players turn out in similar in England most weeks. One more may not make much difference.I think the opportunity for International players to strut their stuff at home matches in a ground like the new Landsdowne Road may also have a positive impact on players choosing to play for the republic
Possibly; definitely not. You could equally and pointlessly ask whether if any more Republic of Ireland fans, players, assistant managers or FA chief executives embarrass themselves and the country by gurning about unlucky referee decisions, would the national side withdraw from FIFA and sulk for the next Euro Championships and World Cup?Would this encourage more young players to declare for the Republic and if this were to happen would the NI team begin to wither on the vine?
Last edited by Gather round; 07/12/2009 at 7:24 PM.
..........as opposed to the Unionist/other parties whose main 'political program', as you put it, is Northern Irish nationalism. Do keep up!
Has your residency in the West Midlands induced amnesia or are you being deliberately dense? I presume that you are from Northern ireland, in which case which party do you expect those said hundreds of thousands to vote for?
If indeed you are from NI, then you know full well that tribalism rules the political scene here. Are Nationalists of a right wing persuasion catered for? Similiarly, are Unionists of a left wing persuasion catered for?
Answer - No!
Why?..........because the tribe, invariably, comes first. Are you keeping up GR?
Finally, Fianna Fail are coming to Northern Ireland, perhaps they will provide an outlet, for those hundreds of thousands you refer to, that would satisfy you!
Last edited by The Fly; 07/12/2009 at 10:42 PM.
Good for you, but my point still holds!
i am so bored of this thread....
Er, what's your point? I answered your quip about there being no logical leap between not identifying with NI on the one hand, and wanting it not to exist on the other. Basically by pointing out the obvious- the people who don't identify DO tend to go out and vote for 'let's abolish the border' parties. Didn't you understand it?
No, even the pressure of answering the same witless wind-up 60 times on this thread hasn't dimmed my faculties, thanks.Has your residency in the West Midlands induced amnesia or are you being deliberately dense?
I am. I recognise that they vote for SF and SDLP. Are you assuming that they have no alternative now and forever? Bit limiting, that. They could- with enough will and organisation- persuade other parties to stand, then vote for them. You know, Labour, Conservative, LibDem, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, that sort of thing. But if they continue to vote SF and SDLP- basically single-issue parties- then I'll assume, quite reasonably, that they agree with the issue.I presume that you are from Northern Ireland, in which case which party do you expect those said hundreds of thousands to vote for?
You don't say. I hear Queen Anne's dead and all.If indeed you are from NI, then you know full well that tribalism rules the political scene here
See above. Of course I recognise- as a left-leaning Ulster unionist- the difficulty of finding the right (no pun intended) party to vote for. But you know what- it's the same over here. In many constituencies in England, the only choice is the big three. I don't support any of them, so my choices are abstain, spoil or concentrate on some other form of politics. I'm not damning people for voting nationalist, just recognising- as you seem unwilling to- that most do so by choice, not compulsion.Are Nationalists of a right wing persuasion catered for? Similiarly are Unionists of a left wing persuasion catered for? Answer - No!
Fine, thanks. Your mixture of cliche, pointless statement of the obvious and occasional cod-sociology is a bit disjointed, but I'm managing OK.Why?..........because the tribe, invariably, comes first. Are you keeping up GR?
I'll react once they've contested an election. Although I don't see much initial impression. The other parties are well-established and- as you may have noticed- Fianna Fail's image both home and abroad at the moment is about as popular as typhoid.Finally, Fianna Fail are coming to Northern Ireland, perhaps they will provide an outlet, for those hundreds of thousands you refer to, that would satisfy you!
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