Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[geysir]

It is. As the 4 home 'nations' are seen as holding too much proportionate power.

What kind of power are you referring to?

They occupy 1/2 the seats on the committee to rule on the laws of the game as it is played on the pitch. Is that a bone of contention for other members of FIFA?

[Ronan85]

I think some posters on this forum need to respect the right of Northern Ireland fans to retain and support their own team. If the majority of Northern Ireland fans (note that there is a distinction between Northern Ireland fans and Northern Ireland citizens) would prefer to retain their own team rather than opt for an All-Ireland team, that is their right to do so.

Personally, I look forward to the day when we do have an All-Ireland team. Looking at the recent and current demographic divide in the North, that day is perhaps 20 - 25 years away. It is inevitable that we will have a united Ireland within that timeframe. When that day arrives, I certainly won't feel guilty that the All-Ireland team plays its games in Dublin with Amhran na bhFiann played and tricolours hanging within the stadium, as that will be the preference of the majority of the population within the 32 counties. Afterall, Northern Ireland fans have hardly felt guilty about the playing of God Save the Queen and the hanging of Union Jacks at their games, despite being opposed by a proportion of their population.

[Not Brazil]

I think some posters on this forum need to respect the right of Northern Ireland fans to retain and support their own team. If the majority of Northern Ireland fans (note that there is a distinction between Northern Ireland fans and Northern Ireland citizens) would prefer to retain their own team rather than opt for an All-Ireland team, that is their right to do so.

Personally, I look forward to the day when we do have an All-Ireland team. Looking at the recent and current demographic divide in the North, that day is perhaps 20 - 25 years away. It is inevitable that we will have a united Ireland within that timeframe. When that day arrives, I certainly won't feel guilty that the All-Ireland team plays its games in Dublin with Amhran na bhFiann played and tricolours hanging within the stadium, as that will be the preference of the majority of the population within the 32 counties. Afterall, Northern Ireland fans have hardly felt guilty about the playing of God Save the Queen and the hanging of Union Jacks at their games, despite being opposed by a proportion of their population.

Spot on with the first bit.

You have an All Ireland team currently - you do play your games in Dublin, with Amhran na bhFiann. There are no objections whatsoever to that.

When the "inevitable" happens in 20-25 years (as you forecast), will you be upholding the right of any player born in Northern Ireland to elect to play for any one of the the other "British" Associations, on account of them having British Citizenship?

[third policeman]

GR (Sorry to confuse you with your comrade in arms EG) what I find difficult to understand about your analysis is your complete indifference to the fact that the NI football team occupies an entirely unique position in international football. I cannot think of any other international team where a very sizeable proportion of the population of the state that it purports to represent (unless you follow the novel position of Not Brazil that the team merely represents the IFA) dont actually support it. You seem to regard this as a perfectly reasonable and acceptable state of affairs, and all that really matters is that true NI supporters should have the right to continue supporting their preferred team. Well I might possibly be persuaded to accept this uniquely Irish accomodation, but things of course are not quite so hunky dory. The two Irish teams are not divided along lines of national jurisdiction, but along predominantly religious lines.(Please dont split hairs about indivual players etc. I am referring to the overwhelming split in the support base for both teams inside NI) The NI team is something that divides rather than unites communities in the North and the shirts of both teams have become emblems of tribal / political affinity and identity. Your inability / unwillingness to recognise this dimension of the issue rather undermines the reasonableness of your arguments and actually suggests that you are happy for international football in Ireland to be disfigured by sectarian intolerance.

I completely understand why Unionist NI supporters feel threatened and discomforted by the idea of an FAI / IFA merger and would even see this "takeover" as a worrying harbinger of things to come. Maybe the political implications of the proposition are just too sensitive and complicated to resolve, But at least be honest and stop pretending that you are only arguing for the right to support "your" team. This is a facile and disingenuous argument that fails to convince anyone.

[bholg]

Looking at the recent and current demographic divide in the North, that day is perhaps 20 - 25 years away. It is inevitable that we will have a united Ireland within that timeframe.

Jeees... dont know about that one. Very optimistic time scale I feel.

I dont think it will simply be a question of straight forward religious/ethnic demographics...

Probably a debate for a different forum

[Not Brazil]

(unless you follow the novel position of Not Brazil that the team merely represents the IFA)

That's exactly who it represents.

[Gather round]

I think some posters on this forum need to respect the right of Northern Ireland fans to retain and support their own team

Thanks. Not much to ask.

note that there is a distinction between Northern Ireland fans and Northern Ireland citizens

Just like those in every other country- not everyone supports the country they live in, not everyone is interested in football.

Personally, I look forward to the day when we do have an All-Ireland team

You've got it already, read the thread.

Looking at the recent and current demographic divide in the North, that day is perhaps 20 - 25 years away

You're either looking at the wrong statistics, or misinterpreting them. In the last NI Assembly election in 2007 (past electoral behavior being the best, if hardly a 100% reliable indicator of future voting intention), nationalist parties got 42% of the vote. That's a long way behind the 58% who vote non-nationalist. You'd have to rely on some combination of

a) up to 8% of the voters changing to become nationalists later in life

b) lots of potential nationalist voters suddenly deciding to vote after previously staying at home (such people do exist, but on the unionist side as well, which would counter the effect)

c) nationalist voters having more children (by and large they haven't for some time now), and then those children becoming nationalist voters in 25 years time. Being registered as Catholics at birth/ communion (the oft-quoted I think you're referring) isn't the same thing.

It is inevitable that we will have a united Ireland within that timeframe

It isn't. Commentators in the RoI and more so among nationalists in NI have been claiming this inevitability for decades- but you're no closer to it now than in 1925, 1939 or 1972, just to pick three examples. There's no guarantee that the man on Bray Esplanade will vote for it (as opposed to daydreaming when there's no real chance of it happening).

When that day arrives, I certainly won't feel guilty that the All-Ireland team plays its games in Dublin with Amhran na bhFiann played and tricolours hanging within the stadium, as that will be the preference of the majority of the population within the 32 counties

You already do that for your team, even though many of your team come from outside the 32 counties. You don't need to feel guilty either now or notionally in the future.

Afterall, Northern Ireland fans have hardly felt guilty about the playing of God Save the Queen and the hanging of Union Jacks at their games, despite being opposed by a proportion of their population

True, you can overdo the guilt trip. Incidentally there are far fewer UJs at NI games nowadays, and many like me would prefer a distinct anthem that we don't share with England, Britain as a whole and Liechtenstein. And which would, I hope, be suffiiciently stirring (or even bland) to appeal to all existing and potential fans.

[Not Brazil]

The two Irish teams are not divided along lines of national jurisdiction, but along predominantly religious lines.(Please dont split hairs about indivual players etc. I am referring to the overwhelming split in the support base for both teams inside NI)

Not sure about the Republic's fanbase, but the vast majority of Northern Ireland fans I know aren't regular worshipers - in fact, a lot of them are atheists.

If I want to worship my maker, I go to Church - not a football match.

It is fair to say that the majority of Northern Ireland fans are "Unionist" in outlook - no surprise there really, given that Nationalists would prefer there to be no such thing as Northern Ireland.

I would guess the whole of the Republic Of Ireland fanbase is nationalistic in outlook - again, no big surprise.

[bwagner]

What players are catholic at the moment in the Northern team ? Mc Ginn, Mc Court, Baird , Clingan ...any others guys?? Just outa interest
I must admit I love seeing them do well and i even have a 1982 jersey i bought in Lisburn

[Not Brazil]

Your inability / unwillingness to recognise this dimension of the issue rather undermines the reasonableness of your arguments and actually suggests that you are happy for international football in Ireland to be disfigured by sectarian intolerance.

Seems thje FAI are pretty happy with it too - compounding it by targeting and selecting players from one side of the community in Northern Ireland to bolster their squads.

However the right of choice was established in the eligibility debate - do the same rules apply for us, or is the hypocricy just hanging out of you?

Why is it unreasonable, or unnatural, for someone proudly born in Northern Ireland to want to play for Northern Ireland or support Northern Ireland?

For those who oppose the place called Northern Ireland, they can elect to play for the FAI team, and support it's representative sides.

Beyond that, what we are witnessing in this discussion is outright hostility to the right of the IFA to remain autonomous, in line with the wishes of the vast majority of it's International representative teams' supporters.

That is wholly unacceptable, and unreasonable.

[Not Brazil]

What players are catholic at the moment in the Northern team ? Mc Ginn, Mc Court, Baird , Clingan ...any others guys?? Just outa interest
I must admit I love seeing them do well and i even have a 1982 jersey i bought in Lisburn

Who cares where they say their prayers, or if they even bother?

[osarusan]

I cannot think of any other international team where a very sizeable proportion of the population of the state that it purports to represent dont actually support it.

By merging the FAI and IFA and having one team, you'd be creating another international team where a sizeable proportion of the population purportedly represented by the team don't actually support it.

[bwagner]

Just a question Not Brazil
It interests me how catholic irish paople couls play under those banners and songs

[Not Brazil]

Just a question Not Brazil
It interests me how catholic irish paople couls play under those banners and songs

Because they are professional footballers who aren't hung up on theological interpretations perhaps?

[Gather round]

GR (Sorry to confuse you with your comrade in arms EG)

No problem. Hopefully the big man from Fermanagh will revisit the thread soon.

what I find difficult to understand about your analysis is your complete indifference to the fact that the NI football team occupies an entirely unique position in international football

Come again? I don't think, and have never suggested nor implied here or anywhere else, indifference to demographics and their relation to football support in Northern Ireland. But as Raymond Kennedy would say, we are where we are.

I cannot think of any other international team where a very sizeable proportion of the population of the state that it purports to represent...dont actually support it

I can. Was talking to an English friend of mine the other day, who lives in Transylvania with his Romanian wife and their kids. 90% of people in their town speak Hungarian at home, school and work, and many support Hungarian sports teams. This example is hardly unique in Europe, let alone anywhere else. There are many more Hungarian speakers in Romania than nationalist voters in Northern Ireland, btw.

unless you follow the novel position of Not Brazil that the team merely represents the IFA

I wouldn't- haven't- put it in exactly the same terms, and I'm not really interested in the corporate status of the IFA. Did NB mean the team "merely" represented the IFA, ie just a few people in Windsor rAvenue ather than thousands of fans?

You seem to regard this as a perfectly reasonable and acceptable state of affairs

Aye, pretty much. And why not? Doesn't harm the horses, similar precedents in other countries. Although even if there weren't such precedents, I'd still support NI, like.

and all that really matters is that true NI supporters should have the right to continue supporting their preferred team

Got it in one, good man.

Please dont split hairs about indivual players etc.

I won't- I don't. I don't care how the players and fans vote, or worship, or antything else off-field, as long as they play for and support the shirt.

The NI team is something that divides rather than unites communities in the North and the shirts of both teams have become emblems of tribal / political affinity and identity

Don't be so melodramatic. There's a political divide in NI mainly because of the way the border was drawn in the 1920s, wider political issues, population drift since and so on. That divide would exist if international football and both the Irish teams disappeared up Blatter's hole next Tuesday.

Your inability / unwillingness to recognise this dimension of the issue

I have recognised it, merely disagreeing with the conclusions you've drawn from it.

rather undermines the reasonableness of your arguments and actually suggests that you are happy for international football in Ireland to be disfigured by sectarian intolerance

Thanks (for the reasonableness bit), but I haven't undermined anything by not doing what you're accusing me of. Sectarian intolerance (which I abhor) isn't umbilically linked to football, as I say above.

I completely understand why Unionist NI supporters feel threatened and discomforted by the idea of an FAI / IFA merger and would even see this "takeover" as a worrying harbinger of things to come

Good man, we're agreed after all.

But at least be honest and stop pretending that you are only arguing for the right to support "your" team

I've said nothing dishonest on this thread or the issue generally- can you back that up, if not withdraw it please?

This is a facile and disingenuous argument that fails to convince anyone

It's a simple argument (which doesn't mean quite the same as facile, you know) and not at all disingenuous.

[ArdeeBhoy]

By merging the FAI and IFA and having one team, you'd be creating another international team where a sizeable proportion of the population purportedly represented by the team don't actually support it.

Unlike the current situation....

[paul_oshea]

That's exactly who it represents.

And who do they represent?

[osarusan]

Unlike the current situation....

Yes, unlike the current situation where everybody has a national team which they can feel is representative of them.

The merger would undoubtedly leave a sizeable number of NI citizens without any team which they feel represents them. You, apparently, have no problem with that.

[Not Brazil]

And who do they represent?

It's members.

[Not Brazil]

Unlike the current situation....

It's not as if those in Northern Ireland who don't support Northern Ireland (largely on account of their political opinions) don't have a team they identify with - it's called the Republic Of Ireland, and it is a ,de facto, All Ireland team.