The 2nd place qualifying table

**gspain** · 17/04/2009, 8:54 AM

Originally Posted by geysir

Thats a good thought IU, to do what we have to do, to finish second, means a good overall 2nd place points level.
The way the North's group opponents are self destructing, they could do a Foinavon yet.

No chance for us to meet a low ranked 2nd placed team either in an official or unofficial seeded play off draw

The worst runner up could well come from NI's group but hard to tell at this stage. I wouldn't rule them out but they'll most likely have to beat Slovakia at home and win in either Prague or Poland.

UEFA/FIFA have not announced details yet as to how the draw will be structured. It is also important to us that the likes of France finish ahead of Serbia because if there are a couple of big teams in the draw it will definitely be seeded.

7 points should do it and we'll probably need a draw in Bulgaria anyway to get the runner up spot.

**Gather round** · 17/04/2009, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by gspain

UEFA/FIFA have not announced details yet as to how the draw will be structured. It is also important to us that the likes of France finish ahead of Serbia because if there are a couple of big teams in the draw it will definitely be seeded

Apologies if this has been done to death already...what's the precedent from past tournaments for such a seeding?

**geysir** · 17/04/2009, 10:04 AM

A precedent in this context would be a draw procedure from a past play off draw which would be used for future PO draws.

The "precedent" some of us are alluding to was the infamous PO draw for Euro 2000,
Scotland and England, Israel and Denmark, Slovenia and Ukraine, Ireland and Turkey.
UEFA claimed it was an open draw, names simply pulled out of the hat at random.
The reality was that all the top 4 ranked countries were drawn against weaker countries and played away first.
The odds against that happening, somewhere around 270/1

**paul_oshea** · 17/04/2009, 11:20 AM

lads have an awful feeling we are going to meet slovenia :exclamation:

**geysir** · 17/04/2009, 12:08 PM

Awful or awesome?

**paul_oshea** · 17/04/2009, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

Awful or awesome?

both

**Stuttgart88** · 17/04/2009, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

A precedent in this context would be a draw procedure from a past play off draw which would be used for future PO draws.

The "precedent" some of us are alluding to was the infamous PO draw for Euro 2000,
Scotland and England, Israel and Denmark, Slovenia and Ukraine, Ireland and Turkey.
UEFA claimed it was an open draw, names simply pulled out of the hat at random.
The reality was that all the top 4 ranked countries were drawn against weaker countries and played away first.
The odds against that happening, somewhere around 270/1

It was slightly worse. There was originally to be an open draw then speculation mounted - probably lobbied by the bigger teams - that it'd be seeded. Only when there were complaints did UEFA finally agree to no seeding and then, voila, the utterly unfeasible outcome you mention.

Totally corrupt.

**gspain** · 17/04/2009, 2:07 PM

Subsequent playoff draws have been seeded on FIFA rankings if I recall correctly. France (probably) and Germany (possibly) could be invovled in the playoffs. There is no way they'll be allowed to meet each other.

**geysir** · 17/04/2009, 2:55 PM

Germany/Russia, France

You could argue, that the task of finishing first in our group would be less difficult than winning a play off against those teams.

**jbyrne** · 17/04/2009, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

It was slightly worse. There was originally to be an open draw then speculation mounted - probably lobbied by the bigger teams - that it'd be seeded. Only when there were complaints did UEFA finally agree to no seeding and then, voila, the utterly unfeasible outcome you mention.

Totally corrupt.

allegedly the balls containing the unnofficially seeded teams were left on a radiator for a while before the draw i heard so that whoever was picking them out would know by touch which ones to pull out each time. maybe an urban myth but thats what i heard from a decent source at the time

**tetsujin1979** · 17/04/2009, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by jbyrne

allegedly the balls containing the unnofficially seeded teams were left on a radiator for a while before the draw i heard so that whoever was picking them out would know by touch which ones to pull out each time. maybe an urban myth but thats what i heard from a decent source at the time

same story does the rounds for the scottish cups when Celtic and Rangers are kept apart in the draw until the later rounds

**geysir** · 17/04/2009, 5:14 PM

So it's true then

**Gather round** · 17/04/2009, 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

the infamous PO draw for Euro 2000,
Scotland and England, Israel and Denmark, Slovenia and Ukraine, Ireland and Turkey...all the top 4 ranked countries were drawn against weaker countries and played away first. The odds against that happening, somewhere around 270/1

With due respect to Denmark, Ukraine and Turkey, did they really have the clout within UEFA/ TV drawing power to justify any rigging? And wouldn't your fans and the Scots, travelling in likely large numbers, have been potentially just as attractive?

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

It was slightly worse. There was originally to be an open draw then speculation mounted - probably lobbied by the bigger teams - that it'd be seeded. Only when there were complaints did UEFA finally agree to no seeding and then, voila, the utterly unfeasible outcome you mention.

Totally corrupt

Do we have any links to mainstream media covering this at the time or since? I didn't realise it was seen as such a conspiracy.

Originally Posted by gspain

Subsequent playoff draws have been seeded on FIFA rankings if I recall correctly. France (probably) and Germany (possibly) could be invovled in the playoffs. There is no way they'll be allowed to meet each other

Look on the bright side. Win your three other remaining qualifiers so that, even if finishing behind Italy, you have 21 or 22 points. That might well be enough to get into the top four ranked play-off teams anyway?

Originally Posted by geysir

Germany/Russia, France

You could argue, that the task of finishing first in our group would be less difficult than winning a play off against those teams

Beating the World champions plus four other teams less difficult than a two legged play off against an off-color France or Germany? Surely not.

**geysir** · 18/04/2009, 1:26 AM

Originally Posted by Gather round

With due respect to Denmark, Ukraine and Turkey, did they really have the clout within UEFA/ TV drawing power to justify any rigging? And wouldn't your fans and the Scots, travelling in likely large numbers, have been potentially just as attractive?

What have fans and tv got to do with ranking which affects seeding?

Stutts has accurately added the icing to the rigging.
It's no big deal from a football perspective because thats how the draw would have been if it were seeded. It was the blatant cynicism of UEFA, that right in front of the European media they thought they could pull off a stroke like that, first calling for a seeded draw, then agreeing after protests to holding a free draw, then hey presto, what do you know a 270/1 accumulator, ain't life full of surprises.

Do we have any links to mainstream media covering this at the time or since? I didn't realise it was seen as such a conspiracy.

That's how I recall the news reports at the time. It's enough for me that Stutts agrees I am not mad. Check it out for yourself if you really want to.

Beating the World champions plus four other teams less difficult than a two legged play off against an off-color France or Germany? Surely not.

Or finishing on top of the group to an off colour Italy,
as Roy Keane would say - the ex champs.

Depends on a way of looking at it.
We would have to get good results to finish second anyway.
Then straight after go into a play with say Russia?

I am saying that one could make an argument that it might be less difficult to go the extra 10 yards in the group to get the 3 points? to finish first, than to face Russia in a play off.

**bennocelt** · 18/04/2009, 10:07 AM

This kind of thing is common enough - i know two good examples from the world cup -

England re Sardinia due to there fans!!!

And Brazil and England getting to play in Japan - re thats exactly what the Japanese fans wanted
And China playing in Korea

**gspain** · 18/04/2009, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by bennocelt

This kind of thing is common enough - i know two good examples from the world cup -

England re Sardinia due to there fans!!!

And Brazil and England getting to play in Japan - re thats exactly what the Japanese fans wanted
And China playing in Korea

England were seeded in Sardinia. There is an argument that they shouldn't have been seeded though.

Brazil were sent to Korea in 2002 and crossed over like many other groups.

China were fixed for Korea to allow travelling fans greater access - no real disadvantage to anyone here.

**Colbert Report** · 18/04/2009, 7:48 PM

I remember reading Jack Chartlon's world cup diary. He complained that two of the South American teams were kept apart in the draw because of "geographical reasons" but then Ireland were drawn in the same group as the English and he wasn't happy.

**geysir** · 18/04/2009, 10:25 PM

4 SA teams - only natural that they would be spread out.
But 14 or so European teams divided into 6 groups.
Jack was not exactly the brightest spark

**Gather round** · 18/04/2009, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

What have fans and tv got to do with ranking which affects seeding?

Who claimed they did? I was suggesting that TV markets and likely fan following to a tournament, were just as likely justifications as World ranking for rigging the draw. Not that I agree with the other conspiracy theorists on here who think it was rigged.

Stutts has accurately added the icing to the rigging

He's agreed with your conspiracy theory?

It's enough for me that Stutts agrees I am not mad

Bully for you.

as Roy Keane would say - the ex champs

They'll be the current champs for another year and more. So your mate Roy is just wrong.

I am saying that one could make an argument that it might be less difficult to go the extra 10 yards in the group to get the 3 points? to finish first, than to face Russia in a play off

In practice you probably need another 12 points (ie winning every game, including Italy, Bulgaria away and Cyprus who beat you by a rugby score last time). It clearly won't be easy. You can expect Italy to get maximum points from their other games.

If you don't quite manage that (and finish with, say, 22 points to Italy's 24) it won't be easy to win a play-off to qualify. But I reckon it will be a bit less diffcult than the qualifiers to date, or those to come, or the whole 10.