Player eligibility row

[dantheman]

I think the days of northern catholics/nationalists playing for NI are gone (there will be exceptions). If the IFA want to change this they should 1. Bring in a neutral anthem that is acceptable to everone in the six counties, develop a new flag for NI which is acceptable to all in the 6 counties, ban GSTQ, ban unionist flags, develop a stadium in a non loyalist area or 2. support an All Ireland team or 3. leave things the way they are and you will have a situation where we have a UI team "Ireland" and a loyalist team "Little Rangers/NI". Its their pick.

Comparing the anthem situation with the rugby is ridiculous. If you take the Irish anthem it is accepted by all in the 26 counties, where as english anthem is not accepted by close to half in the 6 counties and nobody in the 26 and righly so after what was done to our country by the britsh/english government.

With reference to point 3:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/dundee-united/2009/03/03/dundee-united-ace-warren-feeney-in-wind-up-call-over-artur-boruc-86908-21167580/

I think in reality the OWC fans want:

3. leave things the way they are and you will have a situation where we have a UI team "Ireland" and a loyalist team "Little Rangers/NI". But as well force northern nationalists to play for NI and stand under the Union Jack while GSTQ and no Surrender.

It's such a simple explanation. I just wish they would come out and say it outright. Just for closure. Then we can get on with building a stronger ROI squad and setup, while NI sulks in the corner, trapped by its own cage of sectarianism.

Furthermore the OWC fans can either be given the option:

-stop whinging when players defect or
-let the FAI into the north to train these kids properly (my preferred option)



Feel free to come back to us with the bill for Shane Duffy there Ealing Green. We needs receipts and stuff like that. We'll have a whip round. In your own time....

[Newryrep]

Groundhog day....
I see you have ignored this question many, many times. IT WILL NOT GO AWAY.

How many times have we heard this? That you like the idea of changing it?
And what is being done about it? Nothing!

What are you doing about it Ealing Green?
What are the IFA doing about it?
What are the fans doing about it?

Nada.

Do us all a favour and save us the hot air until you come back with action on the ground.
For Christ sake act like men and put your money where your mouth is.

You all know its a major issue. Why the paralysis?

Afraid of change?
Afraid its the slippery slope to eternal damnation?

Insecure about your identity?
Hmmm...maybe that's it

Jeez, you couldn't make it up...

The anthem/flag/location of the ground is NOT the issue and I wish people would be a bit more honest. Quite frankly there is NOTHING the IFA can do that would make me give my allegience to Northern Ireland/any northern Ireland team so using it as a stick to beat NI supporters is a bit rich

[EalingGreen]

NI simply cannot compell players to play for them against their will

Jeez, you really don't get it, do you?
We are not trying to "compell" [sic] players to play for us, any more than the FAI can compel players to play for them - or have you forgotten about eg Stephen Ireland already?
Rather, we are seeking to have the Rules applied/adapted, such that players from NI cannot opt to play for another team in circumstances which only detrimentally affect us and not any of the other 206 Members of FIFA.

Quite honestly, if we risked losing players to any other Association in the same way, we would be equally concerned.

Of course the idea of an All Ireland team may seem equally unpalatable to some Northern Unionists,

Wrong! The abolition of our team is "unpalatable" (unacceptable, in fact) to NI fans, not "Northern Unionists". When I first started supporting the team, I did not even know what politics were and in the 40 years since, I have not cared. Quite simply, football is my sport, the Northern Ireland team represents me and the wee bit of land where I was born and brought up, and I'll be fcuked if I'll let anyone take that away from me without protest, especially by those whose motivation seems primarily political, rather than sporting.

The Irish football team (like the Rugby team) would not be representing any specific political or national jurisdiction. It should be neutral and inclusive of both states, in a way that the NI team has failed to establish a neutrality / inclusiveness with respect to its constituent traditions.

I don't give a stuff what the Ireland rugby team does (or some imaginary all-Ireland team of yours, for that matter).
On Wednesday I shall be decked out in green and white in Tirana, cheering on a team made up of Protestant, Catholic and neither. And if we can manage a victory, I honestly couldn't give a stuff whether the winner comes eg from Steven Davis of Rangers, or Wee Niall McGinn of Celtic - each is equally treasured by all the fans of our team.

We need to diffuse the increasingly ugly and sectarian edge to international football in Ireland. What depresses me more than anything is the way that both national jersey's are being worn in the North as emblems of political and sectarian affiliation.

Well how about this for a way of changing that? The IFA can go on selecting players from all communities within its jurisdiction and the FAI can go on selecting from all within its own.

That seems to me to be a better way of achieving the goal you seek, than the present, whereby the FAI is offering an opt-out to one community within NI only, thereby leaving the IFA to choose from the Unionist community and a (further) diminished Nationalist pool of players...

I know from previous threads that this will provoke EG and GR into apoplectic rage, but after GFF we need to be pragmatic and imaginative in the way that tradiitions are recognised in Ireland and spaces created where traditional loyalties and animosities can be broken down.

The GFF (GFA?) was a political arrangement, negotiated and signed by politicians, with no reference to international football whatever, nor any involvement by football folk, either.

Why should that have any bearing on how FIFA organises international football, especially when the situation whereby the FAI seeks to select NI-born players actually dates back at least to 1931 (1921, in truth), at which time they first selected Enniskillener Harry Chatton i.e. i.e. nearly 70 years before the GFA was even thought of?

And we're the ones accused of introducing politics into Irish football?

(Btw, no "apoplexy" on my part, or GR's, merely frustration that people like you cannot seem to get it into your head that we simply do not want to see the international team we have supported all our lives disappear completely, by being merged or subsumed into some other construct, whether that be an all-Ireland team, an all-UK team, or an all-Any Other Fcuking team...

Of course NI's existence is guaranteed under GFF (so long as a majority up there want it) and that should entitle them to a national football team, but life and relationships are more complicated than that. The fact that Unionism has established the legitimacy of its political position, might actually be an argument in favour of a bit of give in the area of sport, especially as the current position is in danger of proving unsustainable.

How patronising is that? That we should be entitled to a football team at the whim of a gruesome bunch of "Mullahs and Warlords" at Stormont etc?

The fact is, our team has existed proudly for 130 years, during which time it has survived two World Wars, Civil War, secession by 3/4 of its territory, the Great Depression, 30 years of Civil Unrest and five years of Sammy McIlroy's management.

As you may have gathered, we are none of us too chuffed at the latest threat posed by the FAI trying to cherry-pick NI-born players - even if it is only from one of the two main communities in NI.

But whatever the outcome, you can be certain that we will survive this latest assault and will be no less proud of our team for all that.

[SkStu]

Then why not go off and be a rugby fan, then? Personally, I couldn't care less what they do in other sports - and I say that as someone who was at Twickenham on Saturday!

EG at Twickers on Saturday,,,,

[greendeiseboy]

Lads, scroll down to the "similar threads section" at the bottom of the page - the 2nd item

http://foot.ie/threads/29784-Ladies-...-from-straying

Says it all

[Paddy Garcia]

Well how about this for a way of changing that? The IFA can go on selecting players from all communities within its jurisdiction and the FAI can go on selecting from all within its own.

That seems to me to be a better way of achieving the goal you seek, than the present, whereby the FAI is offering an opt-out to one community within NI only, thereby leaving the IFA to choose from the Unionist community and a (further) diminished Nationalist pool of players...

I appreciate that you are trying really hard to post credible thoughts, but you are missing the point.

The FAI is selecting players from 32 counties & all are entitled to play for us, defacto its jurisdiction.

No-one in NI is excluded, whoever wants to come can regardless of creed.

[geysir]

I decided to dig out his book to refresh my memory. He actually played for Ireland for 11 years before he obtained an Irish passport. His exact words about the change of policy in 1996 were "On the eve of the game, we submitted our passports for inspection but were informed by officials of a change in FIFA rules, stipulating that all players had to be citizens of the country for which they had declared. I had always travelled under a British passport ........ If I want to play for Ireland again I'm going to need an Irish passport".

So in addition to common sense dictating that FIFA obviously would ask for proof of eligibility, we have an account of an incident in 1996 from a former player stating that FIFA requires players to produce passports to prove their nationality. I think we can put this to bed now, unless someone wishes to argue that Cascarino made this whole story up.

That info does not make the slightest bit of difference.
It's not that you are way off, you just need to grasp the last bits.
I don't know why you are digging into the past as
FIFA´s requirements of proof for players having acquired another nationality, guidelines to match refs before the game, even FIFA´s own understanding of what constitutes evidence, goes through a process of change/update over the years.

Do you clearly understand that ONLY a British national can play for Northern Ireland? Yet the referee for NI games accepts Irish passports as the only proof of identity for some NI players. Where does that fit into your thinking? There is no special guideline written down for Refs in the FIFA guidelines for match officials telling refs to make an exception for NI players.
The guidelines for match officials at an international game are passports and only passports are the definite proof of identity. All relevant details are checked and noted.
For one and a big one, if there is an objection to a player's eligibility, the FIFA official is one of the witness to the documents the player presented.

[Mr_Parker]

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

In fact, you could not be more wrong if you tried*.

Do not make me go back into the Archives, but I trust my memory (on this topic, at least) to be able to put the record straight.

Basically, a problem originally arose in an underage tournament in europe (Germany?), not involving either NI or ROI. At such tournaments, players have to produce their Passport as evidence of identity - essentially to prevent "ringers" or over-age players etc.

However, one kid who had dual nationality presented his "wrong" Passport, which caused an officious Match Commissioner (incorrectly) to query his identity/eligibility.

Consequently, in an effort to avoid future confusion, FIFA sent out one of their regular Circulars to all their Members directing that players must produce the Passport of the country they are representing. Upon receiving their copy, someone at the IFA immediately realised that this would cause severe problems for many of our players.

And in an unusally swift move (by their usual glacial standards), they contacted FIFA as a matter of urgency, and received an explicit dispensation that NI players could produce either a UK or an ROI Passport, entirely as they wished.

From what I recall, the entire process from Circular to Dispensation took less than 96 hours. Unfortunately, however, that was sufficient time for the issue to get into the public domain, wherein certain politicians both in the Dail (Ahern?) and in Stormont (Pat Ramsey) seized the opportunity to make malicious political capital in their customary "outraged", but misplaced tone.

Indeed, even after the IFA had received their communication from FIFA, these same politicians were still attempting to claim the "credit", despite the sum total of their efforts amounting to little more than a few newspaper headlines and an instruction to the Irish Ambassador to Switzerland to "sort it out" etc. (On this latter, the issue was resolved, by letter, before anyone from the Embassy even got to arrange a meeting with FIFA!).

The phrase "pigs" and "grunts" springs to mind - especially wrt the porcine-proportioned Ramsey.

Anyhow, the situation remained unchanged from that which had always obtained from 1921: namely, as far as the IFA is concerned, NI players may travel/play on a UK Passport, an Irish Passport, another Passport entirely, or some combination of the three.

Or are we to add this "IFA demands British Passports" myth to the already long list of canards about our team, which (presumably) are dreamed up by our detractors to tarnish our name and/or justify their own prejudices?


* - You're not trying, are you?

I'll stand corrected for now....

[Mr_Parker]

There is no shortage of evidence of players, already in the NI set-up, being approached.

Hopefully you are not refering to the same ones stated on Wikipedia for example?

[Mr_Parker]

I'll stand corrected for now....

EG can you help with a Circular number as I have checked all from that period and have found nothing. Also in the 96 hour turnaround period on this by the IFA that you stated, so far it would seem that it raised its head in March 2006 and was not resolved until June of that year. Maybe you could dig out your old links?

From my memory, it all kicked of when the IFA wrote to NI players telling them that they could only bring British Passports with them. This was done of the IFA's own bat and their 'misunderstanding' of the topic was based on wrong assumptions they made as confirmed by statements made by Boyce at the time. Following a player going to the press about it a story appeared in a paper and only then did the IFA seek back up to their stance from FIFA. It was only after their own rules where pointed out to FIFA by the Irish governement was the matter clarified. The IFA in the aftermanth then spun it to claim it was their work that achieved it.

[Declanus]

Athletes from other codes, rowing, hockey, boxing,rugby can compete for Ireland. Football shouldn't be any different even if we have two teams Republic and Northern Ireland. It should be an individual choice.

Any idea when the fixtures for Euro 2012 are being arranged ?

[geysir]

I'll stand corrected for now....

Ealing Green's account is a rather creative version which also flies in the face of reported timelined facts.
Aherne is credited as being the first politician to react to the FIFA requirement that NI players have to present a UK passport.
Two IFA honchos had only stated compliance to the FIFA requirement as evidenced by March 22 2006 'IFA international teams affairs official David Currie said the IFA wanted players to have British passports "to make travelling easier". "Its an administrative issue, not a political one" he said' and also Howard Wells was summarised by the BBC 27 March as saying 'having British papers made life simpler for Northern Ireland teams playing away from home'.
Aherne wrote his letter of protest to FIFA and a copy was sent to the IFA on March 27. Incredibly the IFA had not made any official statement on the matter at that time.
Wells apparently was sufficiently moved to ask FIFA for a clarification.
God knows what that request for clarification contained as Well´s stated reasoning at that time was pure waffle on top of waffle.
Anyone who thinks the IFA lobbied successfully for change considering their absolute ineptitude in these matters and their almost total ignorance of the rules of eligibility and nationality, is living in some cloud cuckoo land.

In May 2006, FIFA rejected Aherne's letter and replied to clarify the matter for the IFA. The Belfast Telegraph curiously reported
"Now FIFA have confirmed 100 per cent that the IFA were right and that a player wishing to play in a competitive match must hold a UK passport."

After that Fifa ruling in May, Aherne sent the Irish ambassador to Switzerland (an experienced diplomat called Joe Lynch) to discuss the matter with the FIFA legal head Herrera.
Aherne had the news that FIFA changed their minds a few days before the IFA made a statement on their website to that effect.

Who knows what happened to change FIFA's mind after May 26, certainly not through the feeble efforts of the IFA.

[Mr_Parker]

Ealing Green's account is a rather creative version which also flies in the face of reported timelined facts.
Aherne is credited as being the first politician to react to the FIFA requirement that NI players have to present a UK passport.
Two IFA honchos had only stated compliance to the FIFA requirement as evidenced by March 22 2006 'IFA international teams affairs official David Currie said the IFA wanted players to have British passports "to make travelling easier". "Its an administrative issue, not a political one" he said' and also Howard Wells was summarised by the BBC 27 March as saying 'having British papers made life simpler for Northern Ireland teams playing away from home'.
Aherne wrote his letter of protest to FIFA and a copy was sent to the IFA on March 27. Incredibly the IFA had not made any official statement on the matter at that time.
Wells apparently was sufficiently moved to ask FIFA for a clarification.
God knows what that request for clarification contained as Well´s stated reasoning at that time was pure waffle on top of waffle.
Anyone who thinks the IFA lobbied successfully for change considering their absolute ineptitude in these matters and their almost total ignorance of the rules of eligibility and nationality, is living in some cloud cuckoo land.

In May 2006, FIFA rejected Aherne's letter and replied to clarify the matter for the IFA. The Belfast Telegraph curiously reported
"Now FIFA have confirmed 100 per cent that the IFA were right and that a player wishing to play in a competitive match must hold a UK passport."

After that Fifa ruling in May, Aherne sent the Irish ambassador to Switzerland (an experienced diplomat called Joe Lynch) to discuss the matter with the FIFA legal head Herrera.
Aherne had the news that FIFA changed their minds a few days before the IFA made a statement on their website to that effect.

Who knows what happened to change FIFA's mind after May 26, certainly not through the feeble efforts of the IFA.

Thanks for that. I should have searched the BBC's achive first having spent an hour on others.

[EalingGreen]

Ealing Green's account is a rather creative version which also flies in the face of reported timelined facts.
Aherne is credited as being the first politician to react to the FIFA requirement that NI players have to present a UK passport.
Two IFA honchos had only stated compliance to the FIFA requirement as evidenced by March 22 2006 'IFA international teams affairs official David Currie said the IFA wanted players to have British passports "to make travelling easier". "Its an administrative issue, not a political one" he said' and also Howard Wells was summarised by the BBC 27 March as saying 'having British papers made life simpler for Northern Ireland teams playing away from home'.
Aherne wrote his letter of protest to FIFA and a copy was sent to the IFA on March 27. Incredibly the IFA had not made any official statement on the matter at that time.
Wells apparently was sufficiently moved to ask FIFA for a clarification.
God knows what that request for clarification contained as Well�s stated reasoning at that time was pure waffle on top of waffle.
Anyone who thinks the IFA lobbied successfully for change considering their absolute ineptitude in these matters and their almost total ignorance of the rules of eligibility and nationality, is living in some cloud cuckoo land.

In May 2006, FIFA rejected Aherne's letter and replied to clarify the matter for the IFA. The Belfast Telegraph curiously reported
"Now FIFA have confirmed 100 per cent that the IFA were right and that a player wishing to play in a competitive match must hold a UK passport."

After that Fifa ruling in May, Aherne sent the Irish ambassador to Switzerland (an experienced diplomat called Joe Lynch) to discuss the matter with the FIFA legal head Herrera.
Aherne had the news that FIFA changed their minds a few days before the IFA made a statement on their website to that effect.

Who knows what happened to change FIFA's mind after May 26, certainly not through the feeble efforts of the IFA.

I really don't have time to look out the records (off to Tirana first thing tomorrow), but you and Mr. P are being seriously misleading if you think that the IFA ever actively sought to force NI players to carry UK Passports, or that Aherne's intervention was critical in reversing this.

The key elements are these.
1. It was FIFA who made such a requirement entirely out-of-the-blue, following a mix-up by one of their officials, entirely unrelated to anything Irish. I've no doubt that they issued their Circular without even thinking of the implications for the IFA;
2. When the Circular arrived at Windsor Avenue, it no doubt caused a degree of confusion/consternation. As a result, someone seems to have mentioned to a player(s) that they might/would have to get a UK Passport, but this was NEVER an IFA policy, and I am pretty certain that no general letter was, even can have been, sent out to NI players.
3. At this point, events took off down two lines. First, the IFA realised this needed sorting and got in touch with FIFA. Simultaneously, some (unnamed) player who had got wind, instead of going back to the IFA, got onto Pat Ramsey (player's local MLA?), which alerted Aherne. Suddenly, they (politicians) had a cause-celebre on their hands, and the papers had a "story". (As we all know, politicians don't refuse publicity any more than papers refuse ink).
4. Anyhow, the IFA was informed verbally by FIFA that NI players could use ROI passports, as normal, before the week was out.
5. Meantime, Aherne and Co. tried to claim the "credit" for this situation. Now it may well be that their "spin" was eagerly accepted by certain pet journalists - esp those who deal with political, rather than footballing matters (see eg the BT's plainly erroneous - not "curious" - report which you cite from May)
6. Finally, when FIFA got round to sorting out their paperwork and issuing rpelacement Circulars etc in May, Aherne looks to have made a final effort to claim credit.

This last, however, overlooks three key factors.
A. FIFA takes a dim view of overtly political interference in its internal affairs, preferring instead to deal via its Member associations. (In fact, I seem to recall a FIFA Official expressing irritation that the politicians were getting involved before they'd had a chance to look at it themselves?);
B. I do distinctly remember that the IFA was able to announce (end of March) that the matter was being resolved before anyone from the Irish Embassy was even able to set up a meeting with FIFA.
C. For as long as there has been a Free State etc, the IFA has been selecting players who have had Irish Passports. Had they wished, for some utterly bizarre, inexplicable reason, to prevent this from happening, they had the simple remedy of refusing to select them. Therefore why would they suddenly decide that they wanted to force players to carry UK Passports, as well as their Irish ones? Never mind the poltical controversy involved, expecting teenagers to cough up the extra fee for a second Passport (£70-odd?) was guaranteed to cause resistance.

Therefore it really doesn't make sense.

As for the contradictory accounts, these may be easily explained by a combination of both (initial) confusion at Windsor Avenue (which Wells and Currie subsequently look to have been attempting to conceal), along with certain politicians' seeking to gain political advantage at the expense of sport (and the truth, for that matter).

Neither of these last two factors surprises me.

Late Edit: It is not at all "incredible" that the IFA had made no official statement by the time of Aherne's "official letter of complaint" to FIFA. That was because they (IFA) were still discussing it with FIFA themselves and were in no position to speak out of turn. What you and Mr. P are overlooking is that it is easier for a meddling politician to make the running with Press Releases and public letters than it is for hard-pressed administrators (both IFA and FIFA) to sort these things out at 1,000 miles distance.
Remember, too, that whilst I have not the time to check it, the IFA will almost certainly have had some representative teams competing internationally between the end of March and the end of May. If it was never finally sorted out until May 26th, what Passports do you think the various players and officials actually travelled on?

[Nedser]

That info does not make the slightest bit of difference.

Geysir, just to be clear, the reason for my posting this information is in response to Mr Parker and others insisting that FIFA do not use passports to check nationality. They do. It's a fairly minor point in the grand scheme of things so I'm not going to post any further on it. I don't know why you're trying to deny that is the case to be honest.

Do you clearly understand that ONLY a British national can play for Northern Ireland?

Sorry, that's not correct either. People born in NI have the right to choose Irish nationality only, but they are still eligible for the NI football team.