Cork City Examinership

[ifk101]

Apologies if already brought up here - Would a £7m or £8m move for Kevin Doyle help Cork out? Just reading the newspaper with speculation of a move to Villa. Have Cork a sell on fee?

10% sell-on clause AFAIK.

[pineapple stu]

Some random musings -

Arkaga took over last year. Since then, Cork's debts have grown to E800k. Let's say they were E200k to start with (there's always some debt).

Did O'Donovan leave since then? Certainly Meyler did. Any other transfers? The debt growth is suspiciously not far off a year's losses.

Given the wide range of rumoured debts (kit manufacturers, ground rent, training ground rent, programme printers), it's possible Arkaga haven't put a single penny into Cork. Wages have been paid as (a) the players are the first to really complain if they're not getting paid and (b) they're the club's main assets and are free transfers if not paid. It's possible (and again, this is pure conjecture for the purposes of ultimately pointless discussion) Arkaga concentrated on paying wages, which were just about covered by Cork's income including transfer fees. They got around the 65% wage cap by assuring the FAI all debts would be covered, which ultimately is all they'd want to hear.

Now the AIPL is off (or, more likely, as per the Herald, the property market is collapsing so their plan of a new ground with a load of associated houses is less profitable; possibly easier to get planning permission for houses if you include a nice community-friendly stadium in there, a la Drogheda), Arkaga want to sell Cork City FC Investments Limited, hoping that their assurance to the FAI is legally invalid. Upshot - they could have made some serious property profits, realised they weren't going to and are now trying to sell the debt ridden company and ultimately get out of paying any of the club's debts while ultimately screwing Cork over.

Does any of that make any sense, or is it just late?

[LeixlipRed]

What I wanna know is where are the Cork fans who said Arkaga taking over was good for the club! We all knew this would end in tears as Arkaga never even pretended to be interested in being in it for anything other than a quick buck (and why should they be being a private equity company and all).

[brianw82]

And 10% of £8million is....?

Damn, where's my calculator??!!

[sonofstan]

Think Stu is pretty OTM up there.

[Risteard]

Feel sorry for the genuine humble Cork fans but not for the sneering, jumped up majority.
Hypocrite.
Although it's amusing that you set your own snare with that sneer.


Arkaga were investing on behalf of a 'Corkman'. A 'Corkman' worth an estimated 500million who's now grown sick of his toy and couldnt care less what happens to his hometown club.
Gerard Walsh??
I don't know about that but I was surprised at Owen Callaghans comment as I'd always thought that apart from the rent-free shop he'd zero interest in the club.

Begging his attention would appear to be a typical desparate action though.

A better idea would be just to run the club properly, beginning with hounding out this shower.

Then, I think it's time to get real.
In some respects I think some of the top players are holding some eL clubs (the economically retarded ones) back. Think of how easier things would be without the forthnightly payouts to Farrelly, Gamble, Healy, Murray and Mooney. Also McGee, Mullen, even Kenny.
That's where we're at money-wise.

[sullanefc]

Now the AIPL is off .................................. and are now trying to sell the debt ridden company and ultimately get out of paying any of the club's debts while ultimately screwing Cork over.

Does any of that make any sense, or is it just late?

Sounds about right to me.

[skitz3]

Can i say as a Shels fan that when our demise came about, of which there can be no doubt was of our own doing, it was Cork and Bohs fans more than any others that lauding over it. It was those 2 lots of fans who were so quick to offer advice, saying you should have done this, you should have done that and then say we told you so. So i find it enjoyable when i see that 2 two teams in financial touble, particularly when they seemed to have so many experts among them.

[SMorgan]

10% sell-on clause AFAIK.

According to today's Star it's 25%.

[pineapple stu]

Sounds about right to me.
You think Arkaga were in it purely for the AIPL and not for any property-related reasons to do with the new ground? (Or was the ...... including everything in between?)

[sullanefc]

You think Arkaga were in it purely for the AIPL and not for any property-related reasons to do with the new ground? (Or was the ...... including everything in between?)

The ......... was to shorten down the quote really. But I do think the AIL not going ahead has a bit to do with it. The property related reasons had not occurred to me before but it is very plausible.

[micls]

Hypocrite.
Gerard Walsh??
.

Yep..

[superfrank]

According to MNS, Arkaga have poured €2.4m into Cork since they took over. Where has the money gone and how are they in debt?

Also, MNS reporting that Lennox and his mother-in-law (?) had their resignations accepted by Arkaga. Arkaga are having a meeting at the moment in Dublin.

[Dodge]

According to MNS, Arkaga have poured €2.4m into Cork since they took over. Where has the money gone and how are they in debt?
In fairness that was the figure Arkaga announced, with little to back it up.

[Dodge]

Just after reading the thread there. What a bunch of ****ing ****s. Seriously, the amount of ****e in this thread. If I could be arsed I'd take out all the bolloacks regarding Limerick, Monaghan and UCD. Jesus christ lads, you'd swear most of you haven't followed football before this year

[an_ceannaire]

Hear newstalk this morning? Villa bidding 8.5 m sterling for doyle, if it goes thru cork will get 1m euros and coppel offering 250,000 for mooney.....
could be some get out of jail free card!!!!

[Macy]

Hear newstalk this morning? Villa bidding 8.5 m sterling for doyle, if it goes thru cork will get 1m euros and coppel offering 250,000 for mooney.....
could be some get out of jail free card!!!!
If it goes to the club, and arkaga don't just take the money and run.

[brianw82]

Well, if the Doyle deal does go through and Cork get that money before Arkaga, they really will be the luckiest SOBs in the land.

Although, knowing Cork people, they'd still manage to turn it into a hard luck story. :p

[Trainee]

At a meeting of the board of Cork City Football Club with its legal, and other, advisers a decision was taken to petition the High Court to place the club under the protection of the examinership process.

The board remains in talks with potential investors and is very optimistic and confident that Cork City will emerge from this difficult period and continue in to the future as one of the best clubs in the League of Ireland.

It is critical that the support given so generously, and over so many years, to Cork City Football Club by its fans continues during this period of examinership.

This is a time when the fans, players, management and officials need to come together and ensure that the best supported club in Ireland continues to be successful in to the future.

[Mouthpiece]

Just debating this in work, is there an automatic penalty for going into examinership under the new merged league?

[stann]

This is bad, bad news.
As someone with first hand experience of my employers going into examinership some years back this doesn't bode well.
If an examiner is appointed and he/she is not particularly receptive to the uniqueness of it being a football club (as opposed to an ailing business) expect the assets (i.e. the squad) to be fairly ruthlessly liquidized.
You might be better off getting anything at all over the odds for Mooney now before the examiner flogs him off for buttons.

[lofty9]

Just debating this in work, is there an automatic penalty for going into examinership under the new merged league?

Yes, read the constitution. CH3876, para 21.
"If a club goes into examinership under the new merged league, Roddy Collins will be appointed new manager of that club"

[soccerc]

expect the assets to be fairly ruthlessly liquidized.
.

What assets?

[finnpark]

This is bad, bad news.
As someone with first hand experience of my employers going into examinership some years back this doesn't bode well.
If an examiner is appointed and he/she is not particularly receptive to the uniqueness of it being a football club (as opposed to an ailing business) expect the assets to be fairly ruthlessly liquidized.
You might be better off getting anything at all over the odds for Mooney before the examiner flogs him off for buttons.

Ah its alright, sure Cork have nothing worth taking apart from Mooney and Pat Dolan's old office chair which has a lot of wood

[stann]

What assets?

The squad. Their only tangible ones.

[soccerc]

The squad. Their only tangible ones.

AFAIK, they are not classified as assets

[sullanefc]

Ah its alright, sure Cork have nothing worth taking apart from Mooney and Pat Dolan's old office chair which has a lot of wood

Dead wood unfortunately.

[stann]

AFAIK, they are not classified as assets

Of course they are assets, they are the only thing Cork have to generate the funds to cover their debts within the 100 day examinership period, should it come down to that.
If they're not classified as assets then it's even worse for the club, as the examiner may then have no choice but to decide that the club is non-viable and move for insolvency.

[pineapple stu]

AFAIK, they are not classified as assets
Are you sure? I know Bray for one had an amount in their accounts for their players' contracts before.

And anyway, it doesn't matter what they're classified as - if they can get money for them, they're going to sell them. But they'd want to move fairly quickly with the transfer window in England closing in what - two weeks?

[Schumi]

If they're not classified as assets then it's even worse for the club, as the examiner will then have no choice but to decide that the club is non-viable and move for insolvency.Not necessarily. Rovers would have been in that situation and their fans managed to convince the examiner that they could keep the club going after the examinership.

[pineapple stu]

Cork's fans aren't anywhere near as organised as Rovers' were though.

[John83]

Not necessarily. Rovers would have been in that situation and their fans managed to convince the examiner that they could keep the club going after the examinership.
They had bigger debts too. Cork's fans aren't as organised as the 400 club though.

[John83]

That's slightly creepy.

[stann]

Not necessarily. Rovers would have been in that situation and their fans managed to convince the examiner that they could keep the club going after the examinership.

That's true, but Rovers may have been lucky in that they had an examiner that was receptive to the idea (I'm assuming, I don't know for sure). There's no guarantee Cork will get one likewise.

[pineapple stu]

It'll probably cause this board to explode or something, but I don't think you're giving Rovers fans any credit for what they did. They got the company in examinership with the full idea that they'd make a takeover offer to run the club. Not the case with Cork, so they're on the back foot from the start.

[Schumi]

I don't think you're giving Rovers fans any credit for what they did.Definitely, it'll take an enormous amount of effort for Cork's fans to replicate what Rovers' managed. I think they have some sort of structure in place similar to Rovers' 400 club (though in a much earlier stage), it has some odd acronym I think. I hope they manage to save the club.

[jinxy lilywhite]

This is bad, bad news.
As someone with first hand experience of my employers going into examinership some years back this doesn't bode well.
If an examiner is appointed and he/she is not particularly receptive to the uniqueness of it being a football club (as opposed to an ailing business) expect the assets (i.e. the squad) to be fairly ruthlessly liquidized.
You might be better off getting anything at all over the odds for Mooney now before the examiner flogs him off for buttons.

or the other alternative is to wind the company up!! which nobody wants to see.
Speaking professionally I've been involved in examination of companies and unfortuneately I have been involved in winding companies up too.
The examiners role is to ensure the survival of the company and to cut cost as much as possible and not to the clubs supporters.
Corks problems seem to me be cash flow. Cash is often overlooked in accounts but it is the primary resource of operating a business. One cant operate without it.
This is the best option for Cork at the moment because Cork are being given breathing space while the board are in some sort of control. Creditors cant petition the court for liquidation while there is a great chance for the club to survive if the court agrees.

IMO I think the creditors will be offered a stake in CCFC for their debts. They may accept or refuse but it would clear Corks Debts.

[Calcio Jack]

That's true, but Rovers may have been lucky in that they had an examiner that was receptive to the idea (I'm assuming, I don't know for sure). There's no guarantee Cork will get one likewise.

(1) The examiner accepted our offer because (a) we convinced him and the High Court judge that it was viable in terms of us being able to operate the club on a sound financial footing..and over almost 3 years we've proved that.

(2) The examiner was able to persuade/reach agreement with our creditors who accepted (in some cases voluntarily received nothing) a tiny fraction of what they were owed.

(3) We were fortunate in that the High Court judge actually said at the start of the process "...much as it pains me as a lifelong fan of Bohemians football club, it would be wrong to allow such a venerable national institution as Shamrock Rovers to go to the wall witout first examining all possibilities.." with all due respect to Cork not sure that a judge would have the same goodwill towards them.

As an aside it will be very interesting to see what gets disclosed by the examiner in terms of what company is liable for the debts amd much more importantly what company will benefit if the Doyle and Mooney transfers happen.... if I was a Cork City fan I'd be very worried that potential transfer fees might not go to the club and/or creditors...indeed you should be asking why if there is the possibilty of such a windfull did the board decide to put the club into examinership ?

[John83]

Definitely, it'll take an enormous amount of effort for Cork's fans to replicate what Rovers' managed. I think they have some sort of structure in place similar to Rovers' 400 club (though in a much earlier stage), it has some odd acronym I think. I hope they manage to save the club.
Bah! Cork clubs are like vampires. It'll rise from the dead before long. I'd sooner see one less club ahead of us in the league. Sorry Cork fans, but you'd sacrifice UCD for less. :)

[pineapple stu]

Bah! Cork clubs are like vampires. It'll rise from the dead before long. I'd sooner see one less club ahead of us in the league. Sorry Cork fans, but you'd sacrifice UCD for less. :)
I hope they save the club and drop behind us in the league.

FORAS is the crowd you're thinking of. But how advanced/organised they are I don't know.

[John83]

I hope they save the club and drop behind us in the league.
I have no objection to that outcome. :)


FORAS is the crowd you're thinking of. But how advanced/organised they are I don't know.
That sounds like a government agency, a sister agency to FÁS or something. Come on people, help Dave Mooney stay in a job...

[superfrank]

Come on people, help Dave Mooney stay in a job...
I think Reading are going to sort him out there.

[derm]

FORAS is the crowd you're thinking of. But how advanced/organised they are I don't know.

Due to formally launch on 1st of Sept, don't know if that has been brought forward. I've heard a rumour that fliers will be passed around for the Bray game, hopefully people will come out and save the club.

[fergalr]

Just debating this in work, is there an automatic penalty for going into examinership under the new merged league?
I've asked this a few time and never got a response. I guess that it means that the FAI rules on this are a secret.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Just debating this in work, is there an automatic penalty for going into examinership under the new merged league?


I've asked this a few time and never got a response. I guess that it means that the FAI rules on this are a secret.
I think I saw somewhere that it is relegation. I don't know how true this would be though. I don't think there is such thing as a company going into administration in this country so perhaps the punishment is the same as going into administration in England, although different associations will obviously have different rules.


Due to formally launch on 1st of Sept, don't know if that has been brought forward. I've heard a rumour that fliers will be passed around for the Bray game, hopefully people will come out and save the club.
Not having a go here at all but why has it taken so long for it to be launched? I thought it was first meetings about it were in early 2006?

[higgins]

There was no punishment when Rovers went into examinership. They were done for false accounts in the end. The FAI's way of making up for the lack of rules around examinership.

I thought then that the FAI introduced a rule of a points deduction similar to the english and scottish leagues.

[pete]

Given the wide range of rumoured debts (kit manufacturers, ground rent, training ground rent, programme printers), it's possible Arkaga haven't put a single penny into Cork.

That would be my reading into the numbers myself. They have been racking up this debt for probably the entire season. It is possible the Uefa Cup travel expenses forced their hands as they couldn't pay that from gate receipts.
No amount of Arkaga spin can change that. The O'Donovan transfer was post Lennox but not 100% sure if it was during Arkaga as it is complicated.

The reason people had a go at Shels fans was the head in the sand attitude of some of them. City fans were suspicious of Arkaga but we had little choice & accepted them at their word when they said budgeting for 1m loss & in the club for the long term. I did not not anticipate the impact of failing to pay bills for a year.

[Schumi]

Newstalk just mentioned debts of €1.3m including €370k in tax. Don't know where they got this from.

[soccerc]

Newstalk just mentioned debts of €1.3m including €370k in tax. Don't know where they got this from.

Court lodged documents;)

[pete]

Newstalk just mentioned debts of €1.3m including €370k in tax. Don't know where they got this from.

Tax was rumoured to be paid but did hear murmurs last Friday that this was not the case.