Cork City Examinership

[pineapple stu]

Better to have tried and failed than not tried at all.
Surprised it took eight pages for someone to come out with one of the larger idiocies of the league, to be honest. "At least they tried" - well whoop de ****ing doo. Tried what, exactly? Pretending they were something they weren't? Going out of business? "At least they tried", IMO, is up there with "You're just obsessed" in the list of stupid retorts on this forum and shows that some people have no idea about running a football club.

You're right, though, that I do enjoy seeing the league do well in Europe; it's a bit of double think on my part. I'll gladly hold my hand up there. When I heard Pat's had come back from 2-0 to draw last night, I was happy, but it is obviously tinged with the knowledge that this simply can't go on and, as I said on the other thread, I can see the league going to back to how it was ten years ago, European results and all.

And if the "UCD model" bores you (and what a pathetic excuse to commend overspending), maybe you should call it the "Shamrock Rovers model"? Whatever way you call it, it is what clubs in the league have to aspire to.

Cork's troubles (assuming the dark predictions come true) have set the league back in more ways than just losing one of its best teams on the pitch. Players are going to think twice times before coming to Ireland now, which will weaken the league. People who wonder why a player would go to Accrington Stanley instead of coming home have the answer right in front of them.

[Steve Bruce]

I must have dreamt that Omagh had a team once and of course Coleraine are a rock of financial stability.

Off the top of my head, over the last 10 years, the Irish League is firmly ahead in winding up orders.

Omagh still have a team, Omagh United.

Omagh, was a strange one, they had less than 100 supporters (a lot less) and punched above there weight. They relied on Linfield and Glentorans gate. They have been out of the league for quite some time now.

Coleraine are going from strength to strength as is most of the rest of the league.

We have seen overspending in the IL during the 90s, but since then the league has strived to improve off field standards. We are doing that and we are more financially stable now with less crowds than we where 10 years ago with more crowds.

But as you have isolated a couple of teams in the last 10 years. How many in the LOI has went to the wall/or near it and how many are in a very precarious position?

A hell of a lot more than in the IL that's for sure. Not to mention your own club that relied upon a local MP to get big fixtures to bail you out. Too bad institute don't get the same benefits. Wrong side of the river thoguh;)

But if the 2 clubs in the last 10 years in the IL, one folding the other nearly makes you feel all bubbly inside that's your outlook.

My point though is the IL is a lot more financially stable. That is not to say we don't have the odd bad egg but on the whole we are in far better standing that the LOI and we generate far less revenue to boot.

This just shows you how much the LOI is gambling on it's long term health.

My views might not be popular, but I think some people needs to look outside the bubble that some are in. The IL has many problems and I have been able to see them and give constructive critisism.

Maybe you should try to be a bit more constructive instead of starting a point scoring exercise.

[Steve Bruce]

Surprised it took eight pages for someone to come out with one of the larger idiocies of the league, to be honest. "At least they tried" - well whoop de ****ing doo. Tried what, exactly? Pretending they were something they weren't? Going out of business? "At least they tried", IMO, is up there with "You're just obsessed" in the list of stupid retorts on this forum and shows that some people have no idea about running a football club.

You're right, though, that I do enjoy seeing the league do well in Europe; it's a bit of double think on my part. I'll gladly hold my hand up there. When I heard Pat's had come back from 2-0 to draw last night, I was happy, but it is obviously tinged with the knowledge that this simply can't go on and, as I said on the other thread, I can see the league going to back to how it was ten years ago, European results and all.

And if the "UCD model" bores you (and what a pathetic excuse to commend overspending), maybe you should call it the "Shamrock Rovers model"? Whatever way you call it, it is what clubs in the league have to aspire to.

Cork's troubles (assuming the dark predictions come true) have set the league back in more ways than just losing one of its best teams on the pitch. Players are going to think twice times before coming to Ireland now, which will weaken the league. People who wonder why a player would go to Accrington Stanley instead of coming home have the answer right in front of them.

The thing that surprises me is the fact people are saying 'at least they tried', they wheren't saying that when it was Shelbourne. It was more like 'Slap it up them'.

[pineapple stu]

I think there was a bit of an "At least they tried" attitude when Shels went belly up too. Though that may have been from Shels fans. Ollie Byrne in particular was disliked, which made it easier to have no sympathy.

[OneRedArmy]

Cork's troubles (assuming the dark predictions come true) have set the league back in more ways than just losing one of its best teams on the pitch. Players are going to think twice times before coming to Ireland now, which will weaken the league. People who wonder why a player would go to Accrington Stanley instead of coming home have the answer right in front of them.But surely the point is the fact that we can't lure them back anyway as the wages are unsustainable.

Cause/effect?

In terms of the league being set back, surely its only been set back to the level it would've been at anyway, effectively a reversion to the mean. If we assume the wider man on a barstool doesn't care either way, then the damage done is limited only to the clubs directly affected.

As for your poo pooing of the speculating to accumulate approach, I'm not surprised as you clearly have a fundamental problem with the link between risk and reward.

[pineapple stu]

But surely the point is the fact that we can't lure them back anyway as the wages are unsustainable.
Even those we could afford are going to have serious reservations.


As for your poo pooing of the speculating to accumulate approach, I'm not surprised as you clearly have a fundamental problem with the link between risk and reward.
What reward is this?

[Sheridan]

Any club which aspires to the UCD model shouldn't be in serious football. At some point you have to speculate to accumulate, there are more sensible ways and means of doing it than those generally pursued by eL clubs, but it's absolute rank idiocy (the type which should be punished by sterilisation, where necessary) to suggest, to use the mantra of cretins, that football clubs should be "run like businesses." The point of a business is to make money, no eL club will ever be a serious investment option. The more appropriate analogy is with the finances of a state. Sometimes you have to take measures which they didn't teach in Accountancy 101. This should never involve paying players four times their worth, though, as it does currently.

[pineapple stu]

Any club which aspires to the UCD model shouldn't be in serious football. At some point you have to speculate to accumulate

:D :D

Oh, the irony coming from a Dublin City fan is delicious!

Are you telling me you learned nothing from your club's existence, and would do it all again?

In 20 years' time, this league will be a wreck of dead, debt wracked clubs and us (and Rovers) will be winning everything. Course the fans of said dead clubs will be saying that it's purely because the league wasn't sustainable or some other ridiculous, brain-dead cliche.

[Sheridan]

Everyone knows that in the event of nuclear winter, cockroaches would be the only creatures to thrive. But who'd want to live in a world of cockroaches, except a cockroach?

[Patrick Dunne]

The UCD model depends totally on funding from an outside benefactor, similar to Drogheda/Pats/Cork, etc.

[HarpoJoyce]

:D :D

Oh, the irony coming from a Dublin City fan is delicious!

Are you telling me you learned nothing from your club's existence, and would do it all again?

In 20 years' time, this league will be a wreck of dead, debt wracked clubs and us (and Rovers) will be winning everything. Course the fans of said dead clubs will be saying that it's purely because the league wasn't sustainable or some other ridiculous, brain-dead cliche.

Because you are a moderator your edits are not shown.
For clarity and transparancy is it possible to show where you have edited your posts.

Secondly, your last post shows you do not know much about the history of the League of Ireland.

You have made many points on this thread and have chosen to try to embarrass different individual posters. If you repeat any of the points you have already made I would consider that serious WUMing.

[Steve Bruce]

I do believe you have to accumilate to speculate as well. But there are calculated risks and there is gungho stupidity. And if a club is going towards the wall, then that is gung ho stupidy.

Linfield are making calculated risks by going partially full-time. We could go gung ho and employ 20 full-timers. But that would be stupid as there is no g'tee of success and we would need success in europe to be sustainable. At the moment our budget only allows for 7 or 8 full-timers. Until we increase our revenue streams it will have to stay like that.

[gufct]

I dont think Rovers are completely debt free so it looks like you will be playing with yourself Stu. Oh sorry i forgot thats nothing new.;)

[pineapple stu]

The UCD model depends totally on funding from an outside benefactor, similar to Drogheda/Pats/Cork, etc.
A benefactor singular, is it? News to me.

There are indeed people giving money to the club, as with any club. It's more than one, and the various fundraising we do means that if any one of our money sources goes, we're still OK. People said we were a one-club man until that one man died. Likening us to Drogs/Pat's/Cork is nonsense.

[Schumi]

Because you are a moderator your edits are not shown.I don't think this is true. See here (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=987941&postcount=1). The post you quoted wasn't edited.


I dont think Rovers are completely debt free so it looks like you will be playing with yourself Stu. Oh sorry i forgot thats nothing new.;)Hilarious... :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

The post you quoted wasn't edited.
It was, within about 30 seconds. Harpo's just being anal again.

[HarpoJoyce]

It was, within about 30 seconds. Harpo's just being anal again.

Huh! At least I've got one and mine works.

[Sheridan]

Leaked footage of UCD's submission to the IAG:

lfQMJtilOGg

[Schumi]

It was, within about 30 seconds. Harpo's just being anal again.Does it not show up at the bottom of the post then? Didn't know that.


Leaked footage of UCD's submission to the IAG:How did Dublin City's go?

[pete]

You will finds plenty of City fans who were suspicious about Arkaga when they took over City. Certainly the confusion over ownership in the first 6 months put a lot of people off. Rumours of financial mismanagement seem now to be targeted towards former CEO.

I was very concerned that they could spend money & leave us with large debt. The FAI rules said clubs could not borrow money to make up their turnover which seemed to indicate that debt could not be left on the books. We don't own any assets (Shels borrowed against future assets) except for the players wages so many fans (myself included) that worst case scenario was that they would walk away & we would have to start from scratch with clean slate. TBH I did not think they would rack up such debt by no paying their bills.

To date it has been suggested we own money to junior club (5k), MFA (they won't evict us & wouldn't need money desperately), Hummel (100k suggested) & some other suppliers. I can't see how this would get anywhere near 800k. The figures of 75k a week wages are also way off the mark.

[Steve Bruce]

You will finds plenty of City fans who were suspicious about Arkaga when they took over City. Certainly the confusion over ownership in the first 6 months put a lot of people off. Rumours of financial mismanagement seem now to be targeted towards former CEO.

I was very concerned that they could spend money & leave us with large debt. The FAI rules said clubs could not borrow money to make up their turnover which seemed to indicate that debt could not be left on the books. We don't own any assets (Shels borrowed against future assets) except for the players wages so many fans (myself included) that worst case scenario was that they would walk away & we would have to start from scratch with clean slate. TBH I did not think they would rack up such debt by no paying their bills.

To date it has been suggested we own money to junior club (5k), MFA (they won't evict us & wouldn't need money desperately), Hummel (100k suggested) & some other suppliers. I can't see how this would get anywhere near 800k. The figures of 75k a week wages are also way off the mark.

75k a week wages seems far too huge to be true. I would say 40-50k would be closer, but that is a guess.

[Schumi]

Is the 75k figure for two weeks maybe? The players are paid fortnightly going on the statements about late wages. That's still a wage bill of €2m a year though.

Even assuming what seems like the best-case scenario of Arkaga paying the debts and disappearing, is there likely to be someone in a position to take over and pay the players for the rest of the year/next year?

[pineapple stu]

Leaked footage of UCD's submission to the IAG:

We won. Suits me. But you know, fair play to the others. At least they tried.

How long did Joe Gamble sign his new contract for?

[pete]

Is the 75k figure for two weeks maybe? The players are paid fortnightly going on the statements about late wages. That's still a wage bill of €2m a year though.

Even assuming what seems like the best-case scenario of Arkaga paying the debts and disappearing, is there likely to be someone in a position to take over and pay the players for the rest of the year/next year?

I think wage bill of E2m is more likely. We do have probably 10 permanent non-football off the pitch staff though.

Property Developer Owen (you might remember me from the Mahon Tribunal) O'Callaghan name has popped up again as he was in negotiations last year. Before he started development on city centre shopping centre he gave us free premises for club shop on main street. From his comments I don;t think he is involved in the current discussions but may get involved later on.

Best case scenario is Arkaga leaving asap & someone else coming in asap.

[Patrick Dunne]

A benefactor singular, is it? News to me.

There are indeed people giving money to the club, as with any club. It's more than one, and the various fundraising we do means that if any one of our money sources goes, we're still OK. People said we were a one-club man until that one man died. Likening us to Drogs/Pat's/Cork is nonsense.

UCDs major benefactor is the college, funded by the taxpayer.

[Réiteoir]

Does it not show up at the bottom of the post then? Didn't know that.

How did Dublin City's go?

Got it here from the archives at the FAI:
W-amNJqWpEo

[pineapple stu]

UCDs major benefactor is the college, funded by the taxpayer.
Nope.

(Or rather, yes, they're a benefactor, but not so major that we'd die without their money, which was your original point)

[jebus]

The UCD model depends totally on funding from an outside benefactor, similar to Drogheda/Pats/Cork, etc.

I think he's talking about running your club within your means though

[pineapple stu]

There's that as well. There's lots of reasons he's wrong. People saying the "UCD model" means no debt are wrong as well. Everyone has debt; it's just a case of keeping it under control and spending only what you have.

[Patrick Dunne]

It is relatively straighforward to run a club within its means - most of the First Division clubs seem to be able to do so.

Running a competitive Premier Division team which can compete against mid-ranking European sides is a different matter entirely.

[pineapple stu]

Running a competitive Premier Division team which can compete against mid-ranking European sides is a different matter entirely.
Do you consider the bolded bit a necessity? Cos we can't afford it in the slightest.

Unless, of course, you Bulgarian or English opposition mid-ranking.

[Demoshield]

We won. Suits me.

How long did Joe Gamble sign his new contract for?

About 5/6 seconds or so. That's only a guess tho.
Heard they started teaching them Corkies how to write a few years ago and some of them are quite good at it now.
I'm sure the UCD lads would still be better at signing contracts tho with all that education they get:)
I believe the contract he signed is for seasons 2009/2010/2011.

[OneRedArmy]

What reward is this?Excellent use of hindsight vision there (if the outcome was guaranteed regardless of input, then nobody would take any risk).

Regardless of that blinding glimpse of the obvious, there was undoubtedly short-term reward for a number of clubs both financially and in terms of profile, attendence, kudos etc.

Granted, thus far there has been no long-term reward as yet but given you haven't experienced the short-term benefits, I don't think you are qualified to assess them. As an example, in 20 years time, do you think I'll be remembering beating IFK Goteborg away in the Ullevi or beating UCD in the League Cup on a grassy bank in Belfield?

[HarpoJoyce]

....... As an example, in 20 years time, do you think I'll be remembering beating IFK Goteborg away in the Ullevi or beating UCD in the League Cup on a grassy bank in Belfield?

The pitch was never that sloopy!

[fergalr]

I dont think Rovers are completely debt free
You think wrong.

[HarpoJoyce]

You think wrong.

I'm not sure, but there may be a debt of gratitude outstanding.

[pineapple stu]

About 5/6 seconds or so. That's only a guess tho.
Heard they started teaching them Corkies how to write a few years ago and some of them are quite good at it now.
Boom dish! :p

Asked for that.


Excellent use of hindsight vision there
Except it's not really hindsight; people have known that the CL Group stages, say (which would probably be needed to recoup the money lost), are light years away even from the money we're spending.


there was undoubtedly short-term reward for a number of clubs both financially and in terms of profile, attendence, kudos etc.
Short term's worth nothing. The league needs to build long term. Where's the La Coruna crowd now? Short-term's largely irrelevant. You say "Granted, thus far there has been no long-term reward as yet" - I'd argue that that's not exactly a coincidence.


As an example, in 20 years time, do you think I'll be remembering beating IFK Goteborg away in the Ullevi or beating UCD in the League Cup on a grassy bank in Belfield?
Let's ask the Shels fans, shall we?

So you reckon your club is expendable if it gives you one glimpse of a dream which is completely unachievable under any sensible means? Fair enough; we'll have to differ there so.

20 years goes back before my time, but I know those at the club that long are quite happy that we stepped back from the brink after winning the Cup and losing 1-0 to Everton in a Shels/Cork/Pat's/Drogs/Bohs fashion.

[pete]

Are UCD amateur? With crowds of 500 & no revenue outside gate receipts doesn't leave any money to pay players? :confused:

I presume the subsidy from the college is in the form of administrative & coaching staff?

[OneRedArmy]

So you reckon your club is expendable if it gives you one glimpse of a dream which is completely unachievable under any sensible means? Fair enough; we'll have to differ there so.As I said above
1) you haven't experienced the success so frankly, you're not in a good position to comment.
2) if it pushes the club over the edge then no its not worth it, if they survive to fight another day then its a different story

Shels is a good example. I bet their fans wouldn't trade in their League titles and European success for mediocre stability throughout the last 10 years. My beef with Shels is that they pushed it so far they were arguably trading insolvent when they won their last title (from Derry so I'm biased in that regard).

As Beckett said
"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better."

[sonofstan]

As Beckett said
"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better."

Recently, in one of those competitions they have on TV3 where you have to answer a silly question in order to enter, you were asked to name the trophy for the Gah football championship: was it a) the Same Spud, b) the Sam Maguire or c) the Sam Beckett...... I was amused at the idea of a Sam Beckett trophy, but it would probably be appropriate for the LoI - not just in the light of the 'fail better' quote (which people tend to misinterpret as being an encouragement to 'try and try and try again' rather than daring you to embrace catastrophe), but more in a Waiting for Godot sort of a way, if Godot can be taken to mean 'the group stages of the champions league'.

[Student Mullet]

Are UCD amateur? With crowds of 500 & no revenue outside gate receipts doesn't leave any money to pay players? :confused:

I presume the subsidy from the college is in the form of administrative & coaching staff?
[Off Topic]
Some of the players would get a bit of money, others are amateur. The main subsidy from the college is a free ground and grounds staff. There's only one full time admin person in UCD soccer and the college pays a portion of his wage but he also spends a portion of his time running college competitions and training the inter varsity teams so there's nothing particularly unfair about that.
[/Off Topic]

[OneRedArmy]

Recently, in one of those competitions they have on TV3 where you have to answer a silly question in order to enter, you were asked to name the trophy for the Gah football championship: was it a) the Same Spud, b) the Sam Maguire or c) the Sam Beckett...... I was amused at the idea of a Sam Beckett trophy, but it would probably be appropriate for the LoI - not just in the light of the 'fail better' quote (which people tend to misinterpret as being an encouragement to 'try and try and try again' rather than daring you to embrace catastrophe), but more in a Waiting for Godot sort of a way, if Godot can be taken to mean 'the group stages of the champions league'.Who is Sam Beckett, I was quoting ex-City legend Gary Beckett :D

[HarpoJoyce]

I was amused at the idea of a Sam Beckett trophy, but it would probably be appropriate for the LoI -

Who are the two central characters?
Maybe, Bill Bagster and Damien Richardson.

[gael353]

if we have 4 astro parks which are 5 a side courts now take of your shoes and socks and begin to count ...maths my boll**
and i remember the game well not a bottle of buckfast or cider left

then i shall revise my generous figure from 60 to 40 which still has nothing to do with the 52 act watching the match

[Longfordian]

To be fair Sam Beckett would be quite appropriate, we're always waiting for somebody to make the next leap. A quantum leap if you will..

[passerrby]

To be fair Sam Beckett would be quite appropriate, we're always waiting for somebody to make the next leap. A quantum leap if you will..

I would prefer kipling for his IF poem and as sponsor we might get some exceedingly good cakes

[Schumi]

Are UCD amateur? With crowds of 500 & no revenue outside gate receipts doesn't leave any money to pay players? :confused:
What?? :eek: Where'd you get that idea from? :confused:

[higgins]

My beef with Shels is that they pushed it so far they were arguably trading insolvent when they won their last title (from Derry so I'm biased in that regard).


Ollie pushed the boat out big time in order to achieve success.
Wrong thing to do of course but not sure where you are going with your buying the title style comment.

Any debts we built up are going to be paid off, a lot have already been paid off.

At no stage will anyone left without being paid.

What happened at Shels wasn't the way to run a business of course but talk of buying titles is just rubbish. Ollie spent the ground money before the deal was done. Had he concluded the deal to sell the ground and then brought in a team on 40K a week wages and won the league would you claim we bought it ?

What happened at Shels was different to what happened at other clubs.

We are going to pay for that success for the next few years at the very least but give up on the buying the title talk. No 65% rule was in place at the time so spending more than you had in one season wasn't breaking any rules.

[lofty9]

Apologies if already brought up here - Would a £7m or £8m move for Kevin Doyle help Cork out? Just reading the newspaper with speculation of a move to Villa. Have Cork a sell on fee?

[sullanefc]

Apologies if already brought up here - Would a £7m or £8m move for Kevin Doyle help Cork out? Just reading the newspaper with speculation of a move to Villa. Have Cork a sell on fee?

Rumoured to be 10%