Cork City Examinership

[Student Mullet]

Tax was rumoured to be paid but did hear murmurs last Friday that this was not the case.

Which should I believe? Does a murmur have a higher or lower standing than a rumour?

[Dodge]

Wasn't Mooney part of the Rovers side when they went into examinship? And part of the Longford side docked points?

Now I'm not saying he's a club killer but you have to ask questions of the lad

[Longfordian]

Hmm if Reading end up in administration there's definitely a gypsy curse on the lad..which he picked up at Rovers obviously, the gypsies being well known for their loathing of all things Rovers. In all seriousness though if he ends up at Reading I hope he makes a go of it, he's worked hard the last couple of years to progress as a player and it's paid dividends.

[pineapple stu]

Wasn't Mooney part of the Rovers side when they went into examinship? And part of the Longford side docked points?

Now I'm not saying he's a club killer but you have to ask questions of the lad
Yep. Hope he goes to Sunderland.

[Martinho II]

[QUOTE=Dodge;1002771]Wasn't Mooney part of the Rovers side when they went into examinship? And part of the Longford side docked points?

mooney was with rovers for the first part of the season but because shamrock rovers were in fin trouble they sold him to us in the transfer window along with stephen gough.. cant rem if there was a fee or not involved.obviously he was part of last seasons squad too..

wish all the best in the move.. wonder will Longford Town get any cut of the deal for developing him as we did when we sold him to cork? we were discussing this at the ireland under 19 match last nite..

[Longfordian]

From my calculations we'd get 1.5% of any transfer fee received by Cork. If he's sold for €250,000 we'd receive the princely total of €3,750. Still we signed him for nothing and have gotten €25,000 off Cork already for him. Shamrock Rovers would get a higher figure as they had him longer in their schoolboy section. Can't be bothered to work it out for them!

[pete]

From my calculations we'd get 1.5% of any transfer fee received by Cork.

Did you get a sell on clause when we bought him.

Given Mooneys record to date he will score a ton of goals & Reading will sink down the divisions without trace :cool:

[RonnieB]

According to the Daily Mail the examiner is moving in. To examine no doubht. And now mooney is off to greener pastures wonder if he will pay us back the cash we sponsored him with ?! :)

[jinxy lilywhite]

You know what. the first person to pay after examinership is the examiner. The Mooney deal is to pay the examiner and you still have a 1.3m debt

[pineapple stu]

And Arkaga have reneged on all debts, and the FAI have said "Alright so".

Really serious cloud over licencing; Cork only got the licence because Arkaga would cover all debts. Going to have to change the rule to, at a minimum, ensure that money must be put in as the season goes along. Won't happen, of course.

[stann]

You know what. the first person to pay after examinership is the examiner. The Mooney deal is to pay the examiner and you still have a 1.3m debt

Don't know about the numbers being bandied about, but that first bit is correct. The examinership process is extremely expensive, and the examiner and their team will be top of the list of preferential creditors.
Even the Revenue only goes onto the secured creditors list, IIRC, the first division if you will.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, that's right. After Revenue I think come some special creditors like the ESB. The thinking is obviously that no-one would be an examiner if they knew they wouldn't get paid for it.

[stann]

Sorry, the above is correct too, but I got the terms the wrong way around, the examiner, and then the banks I'm sure, are in the first group, and that lot are known as 'secured'. They will get full whack of what they are owed.
The next group are the preferential creditors; the Revenue, and special creditors like the ESB as Stu says. I think any wages outstanding would come under this category too.
Then the poor sods who supply the club come last, Hummel, any sandwich makers and the like.
Of course, if the process is successful all will be paid, even if it's some agreed fraction of what they are owed.

[Blanchboh82]

Are clubs in this league run by complete fukin morons, what do these people think when they do out their budget for the season? Do they think that if they throw money at the top players in the league that fans will suddenly flood through the gates. I hope that Cork get hammered for this because it's beyond a joke now, Cork should be taught a lesson and the lesson should be so severe that no club will want to follow in their footsteps, and waste money like they have been. Clubs like Cork, Bohs and all other clubs who are wasting money on ****e would be no big loss to this league. These clubs are not only making it difficult for themselves but they are making it difficult for everyone else in the league. I think that these clubs should live within there means or simply fck off out of existance.


Thats a bold post. Its not long since Derry had their cap in hand around the city and were only short of Jim Roddy busking outside the Brandywell or am I wrong!!

Long time browser, first time poster :)

[derm]

I think I saw somewhere that it is relegation. I don't know how true this would be though.

I think higgins kinda answered this. I'm not 100% sure but I think there's no penalty for going into examniership per se, the penalties apply to licence breaches.



Not having a go here at all but why has it taken so long for it to be launched? I thought it was first meetings about it were in early 2006?

Not sure of the details but there was a lengthy process of first getting a minimum number of people to sign up, but the real delay was in legal matters, ie setting it up as a legal entity.

[razor]

There's no guarantee Cork will get one likewise.We have the same Examiner (http://www.hughesblake.ie/about_us.htm) Rovers had.

[SeanDrog]

I think higgins kinda answered this. I'm not 100% sure but I think there's no penalty for going into examniership per se, the penalties apply to licence breaches.

Given the article in todays indo in which the FAI state their disappointment regarding Arka not abiding by their agreement to guarantee the club debts, can we assume that this then amounts to a breach of the licence and may indeed result in relegation?

[derm]

And Arkaga have reneged on all debts, and the FAI have said "Alright so".

Really serious cloud over licencing; Cork only got the licence because Arkaga would cover all debts. Going to have to change the rule to, at a minimum, ensure that money must be put in as the season goes along. Won't happen, of course.

The panacea for the league is wealthy owners investing in clubs according to the FAI and indeed most fans (myself included until recently). City did not go over budget, all expenditure was approved by the owners and met the licencing criteria. No rules were broken.

But, like you said, Arkaga decides to pull out, renege on debts that it promised to honour, and there is nothing the FAi can do but punish the club (assuming it survives).

[derm]

Given the article in todays indo in which the FAI state their disappointment regarding Arka not abiding by their agreement to guarantee the club debts, can we assume that this then amounts to a breach of the licence and may indeed result in relegation?

That's what I'm afraid of. I would settle for that if we could end up with a club owned by fans but that's not guaranteed.

[SeanDrog]

Given the sale of players and cash being used to xclear most of the debt I would say Cork will see this through and may end up in the 1st div as a punishment - I would expect their supporters to do a Rover job and really get behind the club and get promoted within a season. Pain in the backside but at least the club survives and maybe in the long becomes stronger.

[jinxy lilywhite]

, Arkaga decides to pull out, renege on debts that it promised to honour, and there is nothing the FAi can do but punish the club (assuming it survives).

Arkaga can't realisticlly do that. The implications for the Directors involved would be serious enough. For one they wouldn't be allowed to be directors of furture companies and if they where currently directors of other companies they would have to step down.
CCFC articles of accosiation or memorandum of association (I can't rememeber which) dictates the limited liability of the company of the company, but the limited liabity can't be less than the companies liabilities. ( I hope someone can correct me if I am wrong but it's been a while since I looked a company law)
If Arkaga have acted anyway inappropriately(Arkaga first duty is the well being of CCFC and not to themselves, CCFC is a person in itself in the eyes of the court) then the 'veil of incorporation' that they are hiding behind will be lifted and they will become personally liable.

[RonnieB]

See ya real soon guys :)

[Calcio Jack]

Arkaga can't realisticlly do that. The implications for the Directors involved would be serious enough. For one they wouldn't be allowed to be directors of furture companies and if they where currently directors of other companies they would have to step down.
CCFC articles of accosiation or memorandum of association (I can't rememeber which) dictates the limited liability of the company of the company, but the limited liabity can't be less than the companies liabilities. ( I hope someone can correct me if I am wrong but it's been a while since I looked a company law)
If Arkaga have acted anyway inappropriately(Arkaga first duty is the well being of CCFC and not to themselves, CCFC is a person in itself in the eyes of the court) then the 'veil of incorporation' that they are hiding behind will be lifted and they will become personally liable.

All very good points...however is it not also possible that Arkaga have set up a structure whereby another of their companies has lent monies to Cork City and are in effect a secured creditor, thus would have a lien on any transfer funds received...so in a nutshell Arkaga might end up getting some money back and one thing for certain is that Cork city will be left with nothing....

As for the FAI saying that Arkaga had guaranteed Cork's liabilities..well let's face it unless you have a way of enforcing a guarantee then that wasn't worth the paper it was written on... it's a side issue but will be interesting to see how the FAI handle this and what if any penalties they dish out to Cork

[jinxy lilywhite]

All very good points...however is it not also possible that Arkaga have set up a structure whereby another of their companies has lent monies to Cork City and are in effect a secured creditor, thus would have a lien on any transfer funds received...so in a nutshell Arkaga might end up getting some money back and one thing for certain is that Cork city will be left with nothing....

As for the FAI saying that Arkaga had guaranteed Cork's liabilities..well let's face it unless you have a way of enforcing a guarantee then that wasn't worth the paper it was written on... it's a side issue but will be interesting to see how the FAI handle this and what if any penalties they dish out to Cork

I think there is a precendent case in this. *uck I cant remember the name but it went along the lines of a company going into liquidation but it was owned by another company which was successful and profitable. The profitable company was made liable for the losses of the liquidated company.
Birmingham council v something I think. I need to check my books for the correct title.

[derm]

Arkaga can't realisticlly do that. The implications for the Directors involved would be serious enough. For one they wouldn't be allowed to be directors of furture companies and if they where currently directors of other companies they would have to step down.
CCFC articles of accosiation or memorandum of association (I can't rememeber which) dictates the limited liability of the company of the company, but the limited liabity can't be less than the companies liabilities. ( I hope someone can correct me if I am wrong but it's been a while since I looked a company law)

Can you give those articles in English please? Is the second "of the company" a typo or legalese? :confused: :)

Arkaga set up Cork City Investments, a limited company, to run the club. Before the club went into examinership two directors resigned (Brian Lennox and his mother-in-law if I'm not mistaken). So it seems to me that Arkaga are in the clear, hiding behind the company they set up.

[soccerc]

Arkaga set up Cork City Investments, a limited company, to run the club.

Eh, No they didn't

[derm]

Eh, No they didn't

Fair enough, it seems to have been registered in 2003. Therefore Arkaga bought Cork City Investment FC Ltd. Thanks for the in-depth clarification.

However examinership is going to affect the directors of that company, not those of Arkaga.

<edit>

Also, the letter to the FAI guaranteeing all debts was from another company owned by Arkaga according to the Irish Times

[jinxy lilywhite]

Can you give those articles in English please? Is the second "of the company" a typo or legalese? :confused: :)



When a company is about to begin the shareholders a company sets up its Memorandum of Association. These are legally binding and dictate the objectives of the company (trade, business), captial of the company, limited liability clause, name of the company. The Articles of Association at the rules for the entire management of the comapny. A copy of these is set out in the 1963 Companies Act Table A. This is what an articles of association would look like. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1963/en/act/pub/0033/gen_16.html#gen_16

There is a lot of reading and jargon but without my notes I'm useless. I'll be able to cite cases and relevant articles tomorrow if you want.
Btw the second "of the company" was a typo. I am sorry

[passerrby]

but if a company say cork city investments sign an agreement with the league in licensing does that mean that arkaga are liable and if not does that mean any club who may have a parent company that did not sign any agreement be excused also

[derm]

Btw the second "of the company" was a typo. I am sorry

Thank **** for that, I know my brain is frazzled right now but I couldn't make head nor tail of it and thought it was legalese:D

That precedent that you mentioned, Birmingham Council v a.n.other, would that apply or is it a different juristiction? Seeing as a company owned by Arkaga, which itself may or may not be profitable, guaranteed the debts and not Arkaga itself, does this protect Arkaga? I mean does it matter how manner layers of abstraction are between Arkaga and the club?

Sorry for asking you to hit the books ...:o

[Candystripe]

Thats a bold post. Its not long since Derry had their cap in hand around the city and were only short of Jim Roddy busking outside the Brandywell or am I wrong!!

Long time browser, first time poster :)

I agree with you.

Some people have short memories.I would not want to go through that again and with our new board this season giving us Derry fans a reality check about what the future holds for us next season ie part-time/full-time as we can't sustain the wages players are being paid and ours are being paid a lot lot less than Cork, Pats, Bohs and Drogs.

With only Cork getting higher crowds than us I cant see how the other 3 clubs can sustain there outgoings on players wages.

Looks like the players in the LOI will all be getting pay cuts and we will only lose maybe ten percent of the better ones as they will have no choice but to stay in Ireland as across the water things ain't much better.

[micls]

Examiner was on the Derek Mooney show saying there has been a lot of interest in the club since yesterday and that the future of the club looks good. He said he hopes to be finished here long before teh 100 days is up

More here:
http://www.ccfcforum.com/forum/City-Derek-Mooney-programme-R-t26888.html

[derm]

Examiner was on the Derek Mooney show saying there has been a lot of interest in the club since yesterday and that the future of the club looks good. He said he hopes to be finished here long before teh 100 days is up


Sounds more promising for the survival of the club. I do believe there is a lot of goodwill in the city for the club, even if people don't go to games. I'm nearly always asked what the score was when I'm leaving the X by people driving by, or in pubs etc.

However I hope that FORAS gets in contact with the examiner pronto to claim a stake in the club.

[CMcC]

Sounds more promising for the survival of the club. I do believe there is a lot of goodwill in the city for the club, even if people don't go to games. I'm nearly always asked what the score was when I'm leaving the X by people driving by, or in pubs etc.

However I hope that FORAS gets in contact with the examiner pronto to claim a stake in the club.

I bloody hate that. Going into the pub after a game and people asking you the score. I always think why couldnt you be arsed going yourself.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Thank **** for that, I know my brain is frazzled right now but I couldn't make head nor tail of it and thought it was legalese:D

That precedent that you mentioned, Birmingham Council v a.n.other, would that apply or is it a different juristiction? Seeing as a company owned by Arkaga, which itself may or may not be profitable, guaranteed the debts and not Arkaga itself, does this protect Arkaga? I mean does it matter how manner layers of abstraction are between Arkaga and the club?

Sorry for asking you to hit the books ...:o

The Irish Judicial system and the British one are quite similar and sometimes the High court or supreme ct will reference UK, Canadian, Australian cases as a precedence in Ireland if there is no previous relevant Irish case.
This is the thing I think is that if arkaga wound up CCFc then they could need to wind everything else up. Once they go into liquidation then the courts can raise the "veil of incorporation" to see exactly who is in control and what links there is. The Director of Corporate enforcement would be looking into this.
I think Arkaga are looking for a sucker CC nut who will take the club off them no questions asked

It will be fun to hit the books again. At last I can put it to some football use

[Longfordian]

Mooney's been sold to Reading for €250,000 with no sell on fees.Doing a medical today apparently. Keeps the club going short term I suppose but I think they should have at least got a sell on clause in there.

[pete]

I bloody hate that. Going into the pub after a game and people asking you the score. I always think why couldnt you be arsed going yourself.

True. Best is when you are walking away from the ground & people who live within sight of the ground ask the result. If they had any interest they would not need to ask.

[micls]

Not everyone is a football fan, as in likes to actually watch games, or a sports fan. But they may like to see Cork teams doing well. Or maybe they go to some games and not all, maybe they couldnt afford it etc etc.

Anyway, Id much ratehr encounter those hoping the club do well,even if they dont go, than those with nothing but contempt for us.

This was typified the other day on 96fm when there was a discussion about the current situation. One fella rang in. He said 'Im a Liverpool fan but we can't let Cork City die. A city like Cork needs a football club'. Another person text in 'Cork City are ****, ye should just get over it'.

i know which is better for the club in the long term. Goodwill of the people of the city will go far in deciding the future of our club, even those who dont go to games. With someone like the Liverpool fan above you ahve some hope. If you gt them to a particularly good game etc they might get interested. The other clown is a lost cause

[derm]

True. Best is when you are walking away from the ground & people who live within sight of the ground ask the result. If they had any interest they would not need to ask.

That's the great Irish sporting public for ya. But look at Rovers, feck all turning up for games yet thousands protest the sale of Milltown. There is goodwill there that can hopefully can be tapped when the club is in crisis, getting them to go to games is another battle for another day.

[derm]

The Irish Judicial system and the British one are quite similar and sometimes the High court or supreme ct will reference UK, Canadian, Australian cases as a precedence in Ireland if there is no previous relevant Irish case.
This is the thing I think is that if arkaga wound up CCFc then they could need to wind everything else up. Once they go into liquidation then the courts can raise the "veil of incorporation" to see exactly who is in control and what links there is. The Director of Corporate enforcement would be looking into this.

eek!



I think Arkaga are looking for a sucker CC nut who will take the club off them no questions asked

I'd imagine and hope so. I just want them gone tbh. Second worst case scenario is the club surviving and Arkaga still involved. (I don't want to think of worst case scenario)



It will be fun to hit the books again. At last I can put it to some football use

You're welcome:D

[micls]

Mooney has signed for Reading. 3 year deal, undisclosed fee.

On their website

[Longfordian]

Undisclosed by them, but hasn't your CEO already said it's €250k with no sell ons?. Strange.

[Rocky77]

Speakin of sell-ons, do we get a few bob? I think I'm correct in saying we did for Sean Dillon and we lost him the same way as Mooney.

[micls]

Speakin of sell-ons, do we get a few bob? I think I'm correct in saying we did for Sean Dillon and we lost him the same way as Mooney.

Post from a Longford fan on our forum :
Longford get 1.5% of the fee by my calculations, it's compensation for training up to 23 not 21 according to the regulations. If the fee is €250,000 as stated by your CEO then we'd get €3,750. Not a huge amount but it's all welcome here. Rovers and some other schoolboy clubs would get the rest of the €12,500.

[Longfordian]

That wise Longford fan is correct ;).

[Sheridan]

Transfer fees aren't often paid in a single block so maybe Cork held out for as much as they could get in a lump sum.

[ramsfan]

no sell on clause is a kick in the arse though

[Celdrog]

I think higgins kinda answered this. I'm not 100% sure but I think there's no penalty for going into examniership per se, the penalties apply to licence breaches.According to the licensing (http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=46)
"The FAI Club Licensing Committee has the power to withdraw any licence or apply any sanction during a season if the Licensee:
o no longer satisfies any single criteria for issuing the licence;
o violates any of its obligations, duties, confirmations or undertakings under thisManual, Contract or Confidentiality Agreement
o Is involved in a bankruptcy, receivership, examinership or liquidation process, or is struck off the Companies' Register"

I seem to remember five years ago the FAI told Drogheda they had 24 hours to pay the creditors all they were owed or we were out of the league. We also had to lodge €100k with the FAI in case of future liabilities.

They fairly shafted Longford last season for nothing compared to what has happened Cork

[eamo1]

I remember the drogheda thing a few years ago,think it was 7 years ago actually.The time we(g.u) played them in the playoff final.They had to pay money into an account by the Thursday and said they had done it.A month later it turned out they STILL hadnt it paid into the account but they just found a Des Kelly store and a sweeping brush and it was ok:mad:.

[Celdrog]

I remember the drogheda thing a few years ago,think it was 7 years ago actually.The time we(g.u) played them in the playoff final.They had to pay money into an account by the Thursday and said they had done it.A month later it turned out they STILL hadnt it paid into the account but they just found a Des Kelly store and a sweeping brush and it was ok:mad:.I think you will will find the money was given to the FAI the next day. The FAI wanted the holding company re-instated, there was difficulty doing this.
Anyway the point I'm making is that the FAI can be fairly brutal when they want, but sure Galway know that.