Derry City applying for Grant Aid

[jebus]

"Linfield and Glentoran contribute to Belfast's culture and so should be entitled to grants from the Northern Irish government, and they also contribute to the sporting culture on this island, and so should be entitled to grants from the Republic"


Not really. Linfield and Glentoran don't contribute enough to the sporting culture of the Republic to be entitled to grants. Personally I think Derry's main source should be from the FAI as they are part of this league, but they do contribute greatly to sporting life in Derry/Londonderry and so should be recieving grants from the North to maintain this

[dcfcsteve]

No "spinning" about it. I merely took your exact analogy and applied it in another context, to demonstrate a flaw in it. Namely, would you be happy with a club in the Republic receiving Dublin government funding for a stadium, then moving to play in another jurisdiction? Simple question, really (at least, easier than E=MC2!)

You're trying to portray this as a case of 'take the money and run'. If this hypothetical club in the Republic was pushed out of the League of Ireland on unreasonable and sectarian grounds, I think you'd find there'd be considerable sympathy for them...


It is not my "latest" objection. If you read my posts, I have objected since the start to one club in Ireland considering itself eligible for funding from two Governments and two Associations, whilst every other club has to make do with one each. I am concerned for a level playing field - particularly since DCFC's Chairman "let the cat out of the bag" when revealing that a major (chief?) concern is that without double funding, DCFC may not be able to stay f-t professional.

1) Please explain why City's unique footballing position should not also be reflected by a unique funding situatioon - where each side pays less than it otherwise would if the club was 100% involved in their jurisdiction, but the sum-total is the same ? Surely each side of the border benefits from this ?

2) If you're so concerend to see a nlevel playing field in Irish football, can you confirm your support for DCFc to be exempt form the VAT charges that are levied upon entrance fees to sporting events in the north, given that these charges aren't levied in the south and City is therefore at a 17.5% revenue disadvantage for every person it gets through its gates ?



A ratio of 2/3 to 1/3 seems reasonable to me. Therefore, if DCFC can raise £5m, let Dublin match it with £10m. Or, if Dublin won't do that, let DCFC reapply to join the IL and apply for £10m to Stormont. Whichever way, as a UK taxpayer, I object to IL clubs being deprived of up to £5m for a club which plays outside the UK, when IL clubs cannot benefit correspondingly from Dublin money.

This is the nub of your arguement - you just don't like City playing in the LOI and want Stormont to with-hold their financial toys as a result. If City wants those toys, it has to go crawling back to your tin-pot league to do so.

The reality is that City's unique situation will actually cost Nortehrn Irish football LESS ! If we were in the IL we'd be looking for ALL the money form the north. This is how blinkered you are in your poedantry - you'd actually be happier to see UK tax-payers faced with a bigger burden from Derry City FC, ratehr than have it shared north and south, just so your autistic-inability to grasp the club's unique position can be satisfied. Anyone where else in the world, tax-payers would be happy to see their burden reduced for the same benefit. Sadly, not in Ealing Green-land...

Irish football is not as clean cut as two sides of the border and two leagues operating insplendid isolation. A unique sporting situation exists, and that opens up unique funding situations. You may not like it, but them's the facts...

[dcfcsteve]

But I'd like you to add a third paragraph, one which outlines with the same clarity why Derry are entitled to money from the ROI government (apart from the kind of funding we've seen given to eL clubs in the past, with which this figure of 5 million is not comparable) for their regeneration project. None of the reasons from paragraph 2 are applicable.



3.1) The Irish government has established a host of precedents for funding projects that are 100% based-and-operating-in the North. DCFC is based in the north, but affiliated to a southern sporting body and operating in the south as well as the north. So if the road to Aughnacloy is worthy of ROI funding, DCFC is doubly so. I woudl throw this question back to you - in the context of Police Schools, roads, the Orange Order etc receiving southern government funding - why should Derry City not receive it when it is an important member of a Republic of Ireland sporting body ? :confused:

3.2) We are applying to the FAI for funding - not teh government. You may want to tie yourself in notes about where that money came form to get to the FAI, but the bottom line is it's money allocated by the FAI - not the government.

[paul_oshea]

sorry to go off topic here, but can someone answer my question in relation to this:

""Derry City is the second city in Northern Ireland. We play VAT on our gate receipts like every other sporting body up here. "

Do gaelic teams also pay VAT on tickets sold to matches in the North?! IF they do then do they get any funding from the governmen/council in Northern Ireland?!

Finally, how could it cost £15m to build a stadium of only 8000 capacity?! surely double that for that cost.....plus shouldn't derry go for at least 10k...

[SeanDrog]

3.1) but the bottom line is it's money allocated by the FAI - not the government.

This is an important point that every one does need to note - Derry are member sof the FAI and fully entitled to apply for cash and SEPARATELY they do pay taxes in the north and hence can apply for sports grants.

For me this thread is a bit of an non issue once the blinkered reactions are removed and the real meat of the matter is reasonably reviewed.

[EalingGreen]

1) Derry City are arguably entitled to two sets of funding, unique in comparison to other clubs on the island, because they are in a unique posiiton on the island. The reason why peopke keep mentioning what happened to City in the Irish League isn't to rake up old grievances, as you assert, but to explain to you how we ended-up in such a unique position against out will. But still you don't get it...

It is certainly "arguable", it's just that I am not persuaded by their argument, for the reasons I've outlined. And of course DCFC are in a "unique" situation - I've never argued otherwise. But you are conflating cause and effect. What is unique is that they were unable to play in their domestic league. Consequently, that was recognised by their being allowed to play in another League, outside their domestic jurisdiction.
They are not entitled (imo) to take this a step further and demand funding from both jurisdictions, since they don't actually play in both.
In the end, if they want Stormont funding, they should play in the IL. But if they play in the LOI, and Dublin is prepared to fund them, then good for them both.


1) 2) As a sports club, a community institution and a tax-paying business within Northern Ireland we are operfectly entitled to seek funding from the NI authorities. We woulsn't be entitled to Irish League funding - but we're not looking for that. Again I reiterate - you may not like us seekign Stormnont money, but give me one good reaosn why a sporting body based in the north and paying tax in the north should not be entitled to funding in the north ??
One very good reason: they don't play in the IL, so any Stormont money (as opposed to IFA money, which is arguably different) which goes to DCFC is automatically depriving those NI clubs which do play in the IL.
Fair enough if DCFC were still unable to play in the IL, or if they were denied Dublin government funding, but neither is the case. If they want to be eligible for Stormont funding, let them reapply to the IL. Of course, that may mean they would no longer be eligible for Dublin funding, but a choice of Leagues is not one currently open to any other club in Ireland, so why should DCFC be allowed to have their (NI) cake and eat their (ROI) cake?

1)
I can see no good reason why 10 pages later you are still wheeling out spurious arguements that have been tackled numerous times since Page 1. This only leads me to conclude that you just fundamentally don't like Derry City getting money from anyone or anything in NI - because we have the temerity to play outside the Irish league, even though we had no choice - and all you are doing is scrabbling around in the dark looking for excuses/reasons to make your position on this appear vaguely reasonable. They don't....
If you insist on concluding that I "just fundamentally don't like Derry City getting money from anyone or anything in NI - because we have the temerity to play outside the Irish league, even though we had no choice", in the face of what I have actually posted, then I can only assume your "DCFC goggles" make you unable even to comprehend my position, or that of anyone who dares to disagree with the club and its supporters.

Loyalty to a cause is often an admirable trait, but not when it is blind.

[EalingGreen]

Not really. Linfield and Glentoran don't contribute enough to the sporting culture of the Republic to be entitled to grants. Personally I think Derry's main source should be from the FAI as they are part of this league, but they do contribute greatly to sporting life in Derry/Londonderry and so should be recieving grants from the North to maintain this

Tbh, Jebus, I wasn't being entirely serious when I made my point about LFC and the Glens!

However, whilst I personally feel that DCFC's Football funding might/should come from the IFA, but their Government funding from Dublin, I accept the argument for it being the other way round.
But what I think would give them an unfair advantage over every other club on the island would be if they were uniquely eligible for funding from two Governments and even two Associations.
There have been a number of arguments about DCFC's "unique"position and i have accepted that this is fairly recognised by their being allowed to apply to the LOI when they did.
But a hell of a sight has changed since then, including that there is no longer a bar to their returning to the IL. If they did, I'd say "Great! Welcome back" and further, I would support them 100% in any apllication for funding they made from my taxes (i.e. from Stormont).
But whilst they prefer to remain in ther LOI, then they should bear the consequences i.e. Dublin funding only, particularly since a major reason for their preferring the LOI is that it is much more nearly full-time.
Why should part-time clubs in NI be deprived of money to assist DCFC in remaining f-t in another League entirely, when there is no longer any bar to their rejoining the IL?

[Krstic]

makes sense putting in 5m now to regenerate the area rather than when we have a united ireland and it will cost us a lot more in the future due to inflation etc

:D Indeed:D

[kingdom hoop]

...any Stormont money which goes to DCFC is automatically depriving those NI clubs which do play in the IL.


Don't you feel it gives IL clubs good motivation and justification to apply for funding? "Here, Mr. Poots, you've given a couple of million to DCFC, how's about throwing some our way?"

[paul_oshea]

One very good reason: they don't play in the IL, so any Stormont money (as opposed to IFA money, which is arguably different) which goes to DCFC is automatically depriving those NI clubs which do play in the IL.
Fair enough if DCFC were still unable to play in the IL, or if they were denied Dublin government funding, but neither is the case. If they want to be eligible for Stormont funding, let them reapply to the IL. Of course, that may mean they would no longer be eligible for Dublin funding, but a choice of Leagues is not one currently open to any other club in Ireland, so why should DCFC be allowed to have their (NI) cake and eat their (ROI) cake?

So, even though they pay taxes to "Stormont" and "Stormont" alone, they are not eligible to receive grants/funding/whatever you want to call it from "Stormont"?!

[inchicore_saint]

Good luck to Derry hope they get the money,Im shocked at the partionist mindset of some people on this forum.

[Dodge]

Good luck to Derry hope they get the money,Im shocked at the partionist mindset of some people on this forum.

I'm shocked at the level of naivity amongst many here.

[paul_oshea]

I'm shocked at the level of naivity amongst many here.

haha good comeback, even if ye don't really mean it ;)

[jebus]

What's wrong with saying they should get sports grants from the FAI and regeneration grants from the Northern government? Both Irish sport and Derry/Londonderry as a community would benefit from Derry City FC improving their lot.

[kingdom hoop]

I'm shocked at the level of naivity amongst many here.

While I'm shocked you won't advance the debate and explain why that is so. :)

[osarusan]

3.2) We are applying to the FAI for funding - not teh government. You may want to tie yourself in notes about where that money came form to get to the FAI, but the bottom line is it's money allocated by the FAI - not the government.
This fact - that Derry are looking from money from the FAI, and not the government, is something not mentioned in the original BBC report, or, to the best of my knowledge, in this thread so far (although of course it may have slipped past me). Now of course FAI money sometimes means Government money, but no, I'm not going to tie myself in knots about that, Derry are entitled to FAI funding like any other club under the jurisdiction of the FAI, and I'm not concerned how that money came to the FAI.

If that's true, then my next question is - Are Derry asking the FAI to help fund a regeneration project? Or is the FAI money earmarked specifically for stadium development?

[EalingGreen]

You're trying to portray this as a case of 'take the money and run'. If this hypothetical club in the Republic was pushed out of the League of Ireland on unreasonable and sectarian grounds, I think you'd find there'd be considerable sympathy for them...

And I have been entirely sympathetic to DCFC when formerly deprived of any choice. But times have changed and there is no longer any reasonable barrier to DCFC reapplying to join the IL. Or how long are you going to continue making a case by reference to past grievances which no longer exist?



1) Please explain why City's unique footballing position should not also be reflected by a unique funding situatioon - where each side pays less than it otherwise would if the club was 100% involved in their jurisdiction, but the sum-total is the same ? Surely each side of the border benefits from this ?

DCFC's unique situation (unable to play in their home jurisdiction) was recognised by their being permitted to play in the League of another jurisdiction - and quite rightly, too.
However, there is no justification in doubly "compensating" them by allowing them to be eligible for funding by two Govts and two Assoc'ns, unlike every other club on the island (esp when they are no longer being deprived of their choice of which League they play in)
And I cannot accept your "both sides of the border benefits" argument. If Dublin is prepared to grant-aid a club from NI, then good for them. But I do not accept that Stormont should additionally grant-aid a club which now chooses to play outside NI, especially since this inevitably deprives all those NI clubs which still play in the IL.


2) If you're so concerend to see a nlevel playing field in Irish football, can you confirm your support for DCFc to be exempt form the VAT charges that are levied upon entrance fees to sporting events in the north, given that these charges aren't levied in the south and City is therefore at a 17.5% revenue disadvantage for every person it gets through its gates ?

DCFC are not a charitable organisation and nobody is forcing them to play in NI. Just as nobody is forcing their players to reside in NI, where they would be liable to UK tax, Nat.Insurance etc.
It is DCFC's choice to continue to be located in NI, just like it is their choice to play in the LOI. There is nothing to stop them relocating a couple of miles over the border and building a new stadium there (with 100% Dublin funding, for all it matters to me).
After all the GAA, for example, holds Ulster Finals in Clones or Croke, thereby avoiding VAT, even when both finalists are from "The Occupied Six"
Lots of companies and other commercial concerns are located in one jurisdiction for tax reasons etc, but carry out the bulk of their operations in another jurisdiction. And in doing so, they are obliged to comply with the local fiscal regime, just like all their competitors.


This is the nub of your arguement - you just don't like City playing in the LOI and want Stormont to with-hold their financial toys as a result. If City wants those toys, it has to go crawling back to your tin-pot league to do so.
Which is it? If I hate DCFC so much, why would I want them anywhere about the place? :confused:
Just as I have deplored the circumstances of DCFC's exit from the IL, now that circumstances have changed so much for the better, of course I would prefer DCFC to return to the IL. Why wouldn't I?
However, if they prefer to play in another League in another jurisdiction, then good for them. I just don't see why the NI Government should grant-aid them, esp when this would significantly result in their staying full-time, when NI clubs are struggling to remain even part-time.


The reality is that City's unique situation will actually cost Nortehrn Irish football LESS ! If we were in the IL we'd be looking for ALL the money form the north. This is how blinkered you are in your poedantry - you'd actually be happier to see UK tax-payers faced with a bigger burden from Derry City FC, ratehr than have it shared north and south, just so your autistic-inability to grasp the club's unique position can be satisfied. Anyone where else in the world, tax-payers would be happy to see their burden reduced for the same benefit. Sadly, not in Ealing Green-land...
If DCFC were to return to the IL and present a case for funding which was so superior to every other club that it accounted for all of the existing Stormont budget for football, then my reaction could only be "Good For Them!", since that is precisely how it should work imo.
And if the other clubs in NI should respond and produce equally good schemes of their own, then additional funding should be sought from Stormont, in recognition.
But if we didn't achieve that additional funding, I wouldn't dream of applying to Dublin for it (or e.g. Paris or Berlin, for that matter)


Irish football is not as clean cut as two sides of the border and two leagues operating insplendid isolation. A unique sporting situation exists, and that opens up unique funding situations. You may not like it, but them's the facts...
That is your interpretation of the facts; I beg to differ.

P.S. I think you'll find the correct spelling is "pedantry" ;)

[pól-dcfc]

One very good reason: they don't play in the IL, so any Stormont money (as opposed to IFA money, which is arguably different) which goes to DCFC is automatically depriving those NI clubs which do play in the IL.
Fair enough if DCFC were still unable to play in the IL, or if they were denied Dublin government funding, but neither is the case. If they want to be eligible for Stormont funding, let them reapply to the IL. Of course, that may mean they would no longer be eligible for Dublin funding, but a choice of Leagues is not one currently open to any other club in Ireland, so why should DCFC be allowed to have their (NI) cake and eat their (ROI) cake?

This paragraph destroys any other valid argument you have put forward.

Why should we be entitled to IFA funding? We are a member but do not participate in any IFA senior soccer, and do not contribute much money to the IFA bar our small membership fees.

However, we do contribute to Stormont. Why should we get money from a body we don't contribute to, but not from one which we pay our taxes to?

Since when has being a member of the IL been a pre-requisite to recieving grants? Should the GAA teams all join up as well?

Your argument is a mess.

[EalingGreen]

Don't you feel it gives IL clubs good motivation and justification to apply for funding? "Here, Mr. Poots, you've given a couple of million to DCFC, how's about throwing some our way?"

Since I am worried thaty Poots's reply will be: "There's none left!" Remember, the IFA had to jump through all sorts of hoops to get £8m for the whole of NI football, after a five (six?) year process.

(Btw, I am not defending the unambitious and unimaginative stance of many IL clubs, who don't deserve a brass farthing of anyones money. But that's for another thread)

[pól-dcfc]

On the whole funding meeting -


Monday 28 April 2008
Brandywell Properties have released a short statement following their presentation in Stormont today.

Brandywell Properties today took their case for funding to Stormont to present their plans to political representatives of the North West Area.

The group are seeking to gain a united and focused effort to secure the £5 million required from the Northern Ireland assembly to help make the proposal a reality. The total cost of the plan is estimated to be £15 million and the group are seeking £5 million from each of the 2 governments together with £5 million of private funding

Speaking after the meeting a spokesperson for Brandywell Properties said"

"We are delighted at the reception we have received from the MLAs and MPs from the Foyle, East Derry and West Tyrone constituencies today at Stormont.

We presented our plans around the stadium development and the wider regeneration benefits for the Brandywell area and the North West as a whole. We are extremely happy to have 100 per cent support from those representatives who attended the meeting or those who passed on apologies for not attending.

We are assured of their continuing support to bring our proposals to a successful conclusion."

From the Derry City FC website.

[EalingGreen]

So, even though they pay taxes to "Stormont" and "Stormont" alone, they are not eligible to receive grants/funding/whatever you want to call it from "Stormont"?!

Every other NI football club pays its taxes to Stormont. They also play in the IL. DCFC do not.

As I said elsewhere, lots of companies are registered in ROI, but transact part, even all, of their business in NI. They pay VAT, Income Tax, Nat.Insurance on that business to Stormont (Whitehall, actually), just like NI-registered companies.

How many times do I have to repeat, no-one is forcing DCFC to play in the LOI, just as nobody is forcing them to play their home games in a Stadium in NI?

If they were a Registered Charity, for example, then they would have a case for being tax exempt. But once more, it is DCFC who chooose to be a commercial concern.

[pól-dcfc]

Every other NI football club pays its taxes to Stormont. They also play in the IL. DCFC do not.

That is so far from the issue.

We were forced out of the league. We joined another league. Now the bigots who forced us out want us back. We say NO.

We still pay our dues. We are entitled to Grant Aid. End of.

[pól-dcfc]

If they were a Registered Charity, for example, then they would have a case for being tax exempt. But once more, it is DCFC who chooose to be a commercial concern.

What on earth are you talking about?

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Back to your Shams analogy: how would ROI taxpayers feel if they 50% funded SRFC (along with SDCC), Shams built a shiny new stadium and went off and played in a League in another jurisdiction?
I'm a roye taxpayer and I'd be over the moon. But Derry are already well-established in a league in another jurisdiction at the point of applying for this funding so the analogy is crap. It isn't the smash-and-grab that the scenario above would be.

Derry City F.C. isn't just about the ninety minutes of football they play in FAI competitions once or twice a week, anyway; it's completely barmy to suggest that the club should not be eligible to apply for a grant from Stormont for the intangible benefit of so many people who live and pay taxes in that jurisdiction ... but that they would be if those ninety minutes of football were played in the IFA league.

[EalingGreen]

This paragraph destroys any other valid argument you have put forward.

Why should we be entitled to IFA funding? We are a member but do not participate in any IFA senior soccer, and do not contribute much money to the IFA bar our small membership fees.

However, we do contribute to Stormont. Why should we get money from a body we don't contribute to, but not from one which we pay our taxes to?

Since when has being a member of the IL been a pre-requisite to recieving grants? Should the GAA teams all join up as well?

Your argument is a mess.

As I also said elesewhere, I would in principle accept a combination of FAI and Stormont funding as an alternative to IFA and Dublin funding.

However, if DCFC were also able to receive Dublin funding as well, thewn that would give them an unfair advantage over every other club on the island, including e.g. in the Setanta Cup.

And since we can not reasonably prevent Dublin from funding DCFC should they choose to, then the only way to close this loophole is by making membership of the IL a pre-requisite for receiving Stormont funding.

That way, DCFC would continue to be in a privileged position over all other Irish clubs over which League they play in, but not also the privilege of being eligible for double funding.

[pól-dcfc]

but not also the privilege of being eligible for double funding.


Gone undertand it is not double funding. Thats the part you are having the most difficulty with. It's 1 third funding from one body, 1 third funding from another, and 1 third commercial borrowings.

Here's an FAQ http://www.datafilehost.com/download.php?file=10d05297

Maybe you can inform yourself a bit.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

...I most certainly am not from Belfast. Or were you making further groundless assumptions about me from my Avatar?
Now that would be ironic, don't you think? :rolleyes:
You could easily prevent such assumptions being made if you so wished. Or at least not act the innocent when somebody looks at your Glentoran avatar over your latest post concerning the IFA, finds your 'Location' left blank, and thinks you're from Belfast. This is a forum where people spend all day giving out yards about shams who don't support their local club, after all.

[EalingGreen]

We were forced out of the league. We joined another league. Now the bigots who forced us out want us back. We say NO.


That is utterly illogical. Why would the former bigots who forced you out now want you back, when that would only mean their own share of the "Stormont Cake" would have to be reduced in order to allow DCFC their slice? Not to mention the fact that the almighty DCFC would indoubtedly win every trophy and deprive someone else of a place in Europe, Setanta etc...

I'm sorry, Pol, but by your posts you betray a sense of grievance and bitterness which is firmly rooted in the 1970's.
Which is your right, I suppose, if it didn't also cause you to insult people who are trying to live in the 21st Century and who are actually well-disposed and sympathetic towards the team you support.

[pól-dcfc]

I'm sorry, Pol, but by your posts you betray a sense of grievance and bitterness which is firmly rooted in the 1970's.
Which is your right, I suppose, if it didn't also cause you to insult people who are trying to live in the 21st Century and who are actually well-disposed and sympathetic towards the team you support.

And in your posts you don't betray any sense what so ever. The issue is still relevant. Particularly when you keep stating we should rejoin the IL in order to be able to access the grants that we are entitled to access, due to the locality we operate in.

[EalingGreen]

Gone undertand it is not double funding. Thats the part you are having the most difficulty with. It's 1 third funding from one body, 1 third funding from another, and 1 third commercial borrowings.

Then let Dublin pay DCFC 2/3 and DCFC come up with the remaining 1/3 themselves.

Alternatively, let DCFC rejoin the IL and require Stormont to fund them 2/3.

What I cannot accept is that IL clubs be deprived of funding as a consequence of money going from what is already a pitiful budget to a club which chooses not to play in the IL.

Or would people in ROI be quite so happy to see £5m of their taxes cross the border if DCFC were not also hoping to see Stormont match it?

Would they be happy to see all £10m come from Dublin?


Here's an FAQ http://www.datafilehost.com/download.php?file=10d05297

Maybe you can inform yourself a bit.

Thank you for the patronising sarcasm. I suppose I should be grateful it's an advance from the outright abuse which you have formerly employed towards me...:rolleyes:

[pól-dcfc]

Thank you for the patronising sarcasm. I suppose I should be grateful it's an advance from the outright abuse which you have formerly employed towards me...:rolleyes:

Where have I outright abused you?

And to be honest, you seem to know very little about the whole proposal. Everything you come out with strikes me as someone who has heard someone else maybe getting a bit of money, and has decided to rant about it, without really ever informing himself (or herself) beyond a BBC report.

I'm providing you with more information.

[EalingGreen]

You could easily prevent such assumptions being made if you so wished. Or at least not act the innocent when somebody looks at your Glentoran avatar over your latest post concerning the IFA, finds your 'Location' left blank, and thinks you're from Belfast. This is a forum where people spend all day giving out yards about shams who don't support their local club, after all.

I'm not "acting the innocent". I'm a Glentoran fan, from the years when I lived in Belfast, even though I am originally from somewhere else and subsequently live somewhere else* again.

Kristic accused me (offensively, I might add) of making stereotyped and bigoted assumptions about a place (Derry), on the basis of what was actually a slip by me (Bogside, instead of e.g. Cityside or Brandywell).
He then went on to make a false assumption of his own, based on my avatar - a case of "The biter bit", I think.


* - Ealing, in case yo've not guessed.

[shantykelly]

I work for an international company that has its HQ in belfast. we draw in profits from locations as far flung as fiji, islamabad, and barbados. the company pays taxes to the UK exchequer, and as such are entitled to government funding with regard to staff training, and also whatever tax/vat exemptions are available. why shouldnt they be if they operate in the uk? same situation with derry city fc. they operate both at home (in northern ireland) and technically abroad (republic of ireland). as such they are entitled to request funding from stormont. note that they do not apply to the ifa.

secondly, how does DCFC, under the guise of BPT, gain an upper hand over ALL other clubs on the island if they secure double funding? the money is to be used to build a new stadium. hardly an unfair advantage to let fans, both home and away, watch football in something other than a joke with a roof over half of it. if the club intended to use the money to fund full time football, that would be different issue, but such an accusation/insinuation would be a dangerous road to go down. dcfc aren't like other clubs. we dont have a sugar daddy. we dont have the option of selling off our ground and starting anew with megabucks from a promised sell to a property developer. all we have is our fans and our club, the way its always been and the way it will always be. i would advocate applying to the dalai lama if i thought it would get more money to improve local stadia, no matter what club it is. frankly, any fan of local football, north or south, is experiencing severe sour grapes if they oppose any attempt by any club to improve the local game in any way, be it building a new stadium or getting more sellers for match day programs.

[pól-dcfc]

Derry want £5m from NI Executive
Brandywell
Derry City say the current Brandywell is not fit for purpose

Sinn Fein and DUP Assembly members are to join Derry City football club to ask the Executive to help fund a new stadium.

They are to ask for £5m to turn the Brandywell ground into a facility with capacity for 8,000 people.

The Irish government will also be asked for £5m, and the club will provide the remaining £5m.

"It's going to bring regeneration to the whole Brandywell area," said Sinn Féin MLA Raymond McCartney.

"We all know this is one of the most socially deprived areas not just in Derry, but the whole north of Ireland," he said.

"This is about a 21st century sports stadium, and a regeneration plan," said Mr McCartney.

DUP MLA William Hay has also given his support.

"This is a project not only for sport, but for regenerating that whole area," he said.

Derry City chairman Pat McDaid said the current stadium was an "embarrassment".

Mr McDaid and other Derry officials will hold discussions about the issues with representatives of the Northern Ireland Exectuive on Monday.

"It would be a regeneration for the whole of Brandywell which is a seriously deprived area," he said.

He said the club has "a very strong case".

"We've already held meetings with the various bodies north and south and we're hopeful of securing the funding for a much-needed stadium in the second city of Northern Ireland," he said.

"This money would serve a dual purpose. It would provide a stadium for the football club which is long overdue and also provide a new way forward for the people of the Brandywell," he said.



From BBC news. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7370744.stm

Support flooding in from Durkan, the local DUP and Sinn Féin. Also a UUP member said he'd support it yesterday in Stormont.

Good news folks.

[EalingGreen]

Where have I outright abused you?

Post #4 - "Whinger"
Post #13 - "Bloody Fenians"
Although #13 later apologised for, still not enough to prevent you from:
Post #13 - "A problem with Derry"
Post # 28 - A "WUM" and "anti-Derry"
Post # 37 - "Know nothing"
Post # 64 - "Bile"
Post # 78 - "Open your eyes"
Post # 81 - "Blind" and a "Muppet"



And to be honest, you seem to know very little about the whole proposal. Everything you come out with strikes me as someone who has heard someone else maybe getting a bit of money, and has decided to rant about it, without really ever informing himself (or herself) beyond a BBC report.

I'm providing you with more information.

You had already provided that information (Post #44), with DCFC Steve likewise providing info (#83). I didn't require to be reminded again, thanks very much. I have never qustioned the substance of the application, rather the principle whereby DCFC should be uniquely privileged to receive double-funding, inc. money from Stormont funds which must inevitably deprive NI clubs who are still playing in the IL.

[osarusan]

secondly, how does DCFC, under the guise of BPT, gain an upper hand over ALL other clubs on the island if they secure double funding? the money is to be used to build a new stadium. hardly an unfair advantage to let fans, both home and away, watch football in something other than a joke with a roof over half of it.
You can't be serious. Derry are looking for 10 million to help build new facilities. You can't see how that gives them an advantage over other clubs who don't get 10 million quid to build facilities?


dcfc aren't like other clubs. we dont have a sugar daddy. we dont have the option of selling off our ground and starting anew with megabucks from a promised sell to a property developer.
Despite what you light like to believe, this situation is by no means unique to Derry City.

[Krstic]

I'm not "acting the innocent". I'm a Glentoran fan, from the years when I lived in Belfast, even though I am originally from somewhere else and subsequently live somewhere else* again.

Kristic accused me (offensively, I might add) of making stereotyped and bigoted assumptions about a place (Derry), on the basis of what was actually a slip by me (Bogside, instead of e.g. Cityside or Brandywell).
He then went on to make a false assumption of his own, based on my avatar - a case of "The biter bit", I think.


* - Ealing, in case yo've not guessed.


Why was your 'Slip' the Bogside??

Why not Foyle Springs, Culmore or Carnhill??

[pól-dcfc]

Post #4 - "Whinger"
Post #13 - "Bloody Fenians"
Although #13 later apologised for, still not enough to prevent you from:
Post #13 - "A problem with Derry"
Post # 28 - A "WUM" and "anti-Derry"
Post # 37 - "Know nothing"
Post # 64 - "Bile"
Post # 78 - "Open your eyes"
Post # 81 - "Blind" and a "Muppet"
Is any of that outright abuse? Apart from the 'bloody fenians' one, which, as you say I apologised for.

If you think saying you are a wind up merchant or anti-derry, or asking you to open your eyes, is abuse then you have very thin skin (or is that abuse too? Apologies in advance xx).


You had already provided that information (Post #44), with DCFC Steve likewise providing info (#83). I didn't require to be reminded again, thanks very much. I have never qustioned the substance of the application, rather the principle whereby DCFC should be uniquely privileged to receive double-funding, inc. money from Stormont funds which must inevitably deprive NI clubs who are still playing in the IL.

You have ignored it. Look at the cross community support the club has recieved in recent days, and the comments made on the regeneration of the area. The NI exec would be getting millions of pounds of value for contributing £5 million to a £15 million scheme.

And it's NOT double funding. It is 2/3rds funding, from two different sources.

[pól-dcfc]

I'd just like to say shame on SRFC fans voting 'No' on this poll. Think of the support you got from all teams during the TD affair.

[osarusan]

I'd just like to say shame on SRFC fans voting 'No' on this poll. Think of the support you got from all teams during the TD affair.
Shame on them because they genuinely believe that for whatever reason, Derry are not entitled to this money?

They are two different issues. If you supported Rovers regarding Tallaght, you did so because you thought they were in the right. If they voted against you regarding this issue, they did so because they think you are wrong. To try and say you are owed a favour for supporting them, or that "we should all stick together even if I think it's wrong" is childish in the extreme.

[Calcio Jack]

Man ,this thread IMO is just plain boring, firstly I make no apology for the fact that I would prefer to see Derry City vacate to LOI and have frankly no interest in where they might go.

However since they are legitimate members of the LOI, see no reason as to why they shouldn't apply for a grant from the FAI or the Irish Govt , don't agree with it but respect our (ROI) democratic process.

However my main point is that nearly all the numerous pages written about this smack IMO of small town small mindeness ...by that I mean isn't it time for everyone to take a step back and at least acknowledge that a huge amount of the infrastructure built in the ROI over the las 20 years has been partly/fully funded by handouts oops I mean grants from the EU...ie we in the ROI have for many have been exceptionally good at playing the grant system within the EU.... so if we now have to chuck a few euro in the direction of Derry City so what we can well afford it.

[pól-dcfc]

Man ,this thread IMO is just plain boring, firstly I make no apology for the fact that I would prefer to see Derry City vacate to LOI and have frankly no interest in where they might go.

However since they are legitimate members of the LOI, see no reason as to why they shouldn't apply for a grant from the FAI or the Irish Govt , don't agree with it but respect our (ROI) democratic process.

However my main point is that nearly all the numerous pages written about this smack IMO of small town small mindeness ...by that I mean isn't it time for everyone to take a step back and at least acknowledge that a huge amount of the infrastructure built in the ROI over the las 20 years has been partly/fully funded by handouts oops I mean grants from the EU...ie we in the ROI have for many have been exceptionally good at playing the grant system within the EU.... so if we now have to chuck a few euro in the direction of Derry City so what we can well afford it.

Why'd you vote no then?

[pól-dcfc]

To try and say you are owed a favour for supporting them, or that "we should all stick together even if I think it's wrong" is childish in the extreme.

I don't think we are owed a favour at all. But I do think that football clubs on this island should stick together and try and get as much money out of Governmental sources as possible. I'd be delighted if this was any other club.

[Gather round]

Why was your 'Slip' the Bogside??

Why not Foyle Springs, Culmore or Carnhill??


Correct me if wrong, but apart from recent political tensions, wasn't the general area (like Waterside) already known by that name in the 17th century?

[pól-dcfc]

Correct me if wrong, but apart from recent political tensions, wasn't the general area (like Waterside) already known by that name in the 17th century?

The Bogside was the name given the area which was once part of the River Foyle, and subsequently had very boggy ground. Now it is a specific area of the Cityside, which the Brandywell is close to.

[SwanVsDalton]

(Btw, I am not defending the unambitious and unimaginative stance of many IL clubs, who don't deserve a brass farthing of anyones money. But that's for another thread)

Then why attack a club for being ambitious and imaginative? Let's face it - this is football. Whatever any club can do to improve themselves, they should attempt. Ealing, the way you talk if Glentoran (somehow) found themselves in a likewise situation, you'd wish them to hand the money back at the detriment of the club and the East Belfast area. Or at least invite IL chairmen to queue round the ground waiting on their 'fair share'...;)

[SwanVsDalton]

Finally, how could it cost £15m to build a stadium of only 8000 capacity?! surely double that for that cost.....plus shouldn't derry go for at least 10k...

As has been said, it's not just a stadium. The Brandywell Project incorporates a number of business units and municipal leisure facilities (including numerous third generation pitches, to be used by the local community). The work itself also involves moving the pitch a distance away from where it currently sits on site amongst other construction issues. The plans are online and have been linked to further back on this thread.

And what's the point of having a 10,000 capacity stadium only half-full (at best) every week? We're walking before we run - if we can fill 8,000 seats reguarly we'll be doing a hell of a job.

[Krstic]

Correct me if wrong, but apart from recent political tensions, wasn't the general area (like Waterside) already known by that name in the 17th century?

The Bogside is and always has been the area just outside the walls.

[MariborKev]

And since we can not reasonably prevent Dublin from funding DCFC should they choose to, then the only way to close this loophole is by making membership of the IL a pre-requisite for receiving Stormont funding.


I'd agree that we would struggle to get funding from the IFA without IFA membership but I'd doubt the legality of refusing central government money on that basis.

How exactly could the DSD or other agencies make IL membership a requirement for a regeneration scheme? It would be like trying to claim that anyone who took advantage of the government investment in Laganside had to employ people solely from Northern Ireland.

[shantykelly]

You can't be serious. Derry are looking for 10 million to help build new facilities. You can't see how that gives them an advantage over other clubs who don't get 10 million quid to build facilities?

Then other clubs should start asking why they arent 'getting' 10 million to improve their facilities. and then maybe ask do they need it. and then maybe start looking for it. why criticise derry for other clubs lack of ambition, or lack of need for vastly improved facilities. the brandywell as it stands is a disgrace. it is 2008, and in some parts of the ground you have to pee against a wall outside to go to the toilet. it will take a lot of money to simply get the ground up to a decent modern standard.

As for advantages? How much are bohs getting for daymont? what do cork city's owners pump into them? what funding do other LoI clubs get from local councils? simply put, we dont have the same avenues of resources available to other clubs in the republic of ireland, for a myriad of reasons. and bear in mind, this proposal also includes non-dcfc related commercial facilities and other structures, available for use by others. factor in a proper stadium for fans, proper, modern team facilities, car parking for both the stadium and retail units, utility installation, land drainage, and other general construction items, and ten million might not be enough.


Despite what you light like to believe, this situation is by no means unique to Derry City.

Never said it was, but conversely my ultimate interest is in how DCFC/BPT are going to improve things for DCFC. my point is this. i DO NOT disagree or oppose any club in ireland, north or south, getting funding from whatever source is possible. if lurgan celtic applied to the republic of ireland government for funding, say on a cross community, cross border initiative, i would support them to the hilt. if fanad utd wanted to get funding off the new north-west super council when it is introduced, i would support them to the hilt.
domestic football in ireland is pretty unigue in its disadvantages, in that with a small population base the majority of football fans choose to follow a league in another country. then we have competition with the gaa, not only for fans and spectators, but also for participants.
so anything that in some way, no matter how big and important, or small and trivial, that improves the position of domestic football is to be lauded and supported.
There has been a lot posted about how derry cant do this or do that. but i have yet to see any clear rational logical arguments to support this.
Fact 1: Derry need a new stadium. badly. if anything, the ground has gotten worse since our departure from the IL and entry into LoI. how does modernising our facilities give us an unfair advantage over anyone? if anything, it should bring us on an even keel.
Fact 2. Construction work is expensive. very, especially concrete related works.
Fact 3. Derry have no other proper sources of income other than its fan base. we have no social club, we dont own our ground, and we have no rich businessman or consortium backing us. funds available from local councils would maybe get you half a house built, never mind an 8,000 seater capacity stadium. (And yes, I know this is not unique). Public funding is by and large essential to this project's successful completion. (And yes, this is a problem inherent in the north's society - an over reliance on the public sector, but what can ye do?)
Fact 4. DCFC's status is pretty unique in ireland. we sit astride the border in one of the most deprived areas in the UK. we are based in one jurisdiction and play in another. our city's population expend considerable sums of money in donegal on a weekly basis, as do donegal's citizens in derry. we should, can and will look to every avenue of finance for possible funding. to not even consider the possibility is folly.

Are people afraid the money will be ploughed into players and wages? do traveeling fans actually enjoy coming to the sub-par stadium that is the brandywell? and i dont mean the craic and banter between fans, or any time spent in the town afterwards, or whatever. i mean the actual stadium itself. does anyone believe that this is acceptable for any club to have as a stadium?
so my question is this - what are people actually afraid about if derry secure funding and modernise their facilities?