Trapatonni and the Eircom League

[jebus]

I mean in terms of consistency. The same good player is a good player be it against Belgrade or Ballinanty.

Why did you cut out the rest of the post?

Cause that's the part I was dealing with

and your point about a good player being a good player is wrong by the way. Ever heard Ferguson or Wenger talk about seeing some players with promise, but having to make a judgement decision based on who they have played against and how they have done? Both, and probably every other manager worth his salt has gone for one player over another based on how they have done against decent competition. Hence Clinton Morrison deserves a call up more than Jason Byrne, Curtis Davies doesn't sign for Arsenal whilst at West Brom after Wenger decides 10m is too much for a player who has only played Championship football and Gamble is left on the shelf at Cork.

That's me out of this thread, your point is non-sensical and I'm not getting drawn into another one of your bored afternoons on the internet

[Lim till i die]

However, I do take issue with the situation whereby a player moves to the Championship and is automatically called up without having played any significant number of games.

I don't think anyone would argue that that isn't wrong

[GavinZac]

You honestly don't think the standard of the opposition should have any bearing??
For someone who gives out (misguidedly mind) about simplicity later on in the same post, that point is ridiculously simplisticOf course I do. I don't think I ever said it shouldn't. However, it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all, because the alternative is discarding our national league as simply not viable in terms of players. When should that attitude change? Cant we just do this right before then?


One would hope British scouts have a little more football knowledge then to allow International talent to rot in the Eircom League.They aren't, and if Joe Gamble's contract isnt extended soon, they wont.

[Lim till i die]

Of course I do. I don't think I ever said it shouldn't. However, it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all,.

It should be a pretty large wedge I'm pretty sure anyone with the most basic knowledge of football would agree!! :D


because the alternative is discarding our national league as simply not viable in terms of players

National League not viable in terms of players??

WTF??

More waffle I'm afraid Gav.

Unless of course you're talking about international players. In which case our national league isn't viable. Obviously

[GavinZac]

It should be a pretty large wedge I'm pretty sure anyone with the most basic knowledge of football would agree!! :D Thats both of us covered so :D

Unless of course you're talking about international players. well, obviously
In which case our national league isn't viable. Obviouslyfor the most part, and I'm guessing its subjective. keep going though, answer the rest; When would it qualify as viable? Should we completely discount ELOI players before that point? If not, how should they be judged?

[passinginterest]

When would it qualify as viable? Should we completely discount ELOI players before that point? If not, how should they be judged?

I think I sort of answered that a few posts back. It may have got lost in yer little argument.

To be viable the league needs to be providing a substantial input to teams at U19 and U21 levels. Players need to continue to impress in B squads and the U23 squad needs to prove a team made up of home based players can be competitive internationally.

I'm on the no player is good enough at the moment side of the fence. I don't think this has to always be the case, but, I do think it's more likely to be a young player coming trough the ranks, before a big move abroad that deserves a chance in the senior squad, rather than an older player returning from cross channel.

[GavinZac]

I think I sort of answered that a few posts back. It may have got lost in yer little argument.

To be viable the league needs to be providing a substantial input to teams at U19 and U21 levels. Players need to continue to impress in B squads and the U23 squad needs to prove a team made up of home based players can be competitive internationally.

I'm on the no player is good enough at the moment side of the fence. I don't think this has to always be the case, but, I do think it's more likely to be a young player coming trough the ranks, before a big move abroad that deserves a chance in the senior squad, rather than an older player returning from cross channel.I'd agree with that, I'm not contending that the ELOI is awash with international footballers. Indeed, an awful lot, even in the premier, are rubbish. However, I do think theres at least one diamond amongst the mud - you can probably guess who by now, and more importantly, I think its entirely counter productive to simply dismiss the ELOI and its players. For the future of football on this island, we cannot expect England to train and develop all of our players as they bring in more and more foreigners, so any motivation in trying to keep kids at home would be good. For the sake of some expense, is respecting our league with even 1 professional scout too much to ask?

[CuanaD]

However, I do take issue with the situation whereby a player moves to the Championship and is automatically called up without having played any significant number of games.
But WHY?
Look at Doyle - it only took Reading 6 weeks to turn a decent eL player into a top class player worthy of his 1st international cap - shows the quality of coach (and scout) they have over there:eek:


(now, can anyone tell me, was that irony or scarcasm?):rolleyes:

[Lim till i die]

keep going though, answer the rest; When would it qualify as viable?

Years from now when at least eight of the top ten clubs in the country are operating at the level of the Championship in England*

At the moment the number of clubs doing this is zero.

*Not that that is a great standard, but it will have to do.


Should we completely discount ELOI players before that point?

For anything other than "B" Internationals and underage level then yes IMHO.


If not, how should they be judged?

Frankly, if Joe Gamble (who I assume is your diamond) is serious about wanting to represent his country at the highest level then he should move to England.


For the future of football on this island, we cannot expect England to train and develop all of our players as they bring in more and more foreigners, so any motivation in trying to keep kids at home would be good.

Irish clubs bringing through top class youth is crucial for what you want alright.

But that too is years down the line.


For the sake of some expense, is respecting our league with even 1 professional scout too much to ask?

Would be nothing other than tokenism.

[amaccann]

9 page threads tend to make me avoid them like the plague, so dunno if anyone has made this point; but as I see it, there's a possibility, however slim, that Trap & Tardelli will approach the LoI question with fresh, relatively unbiased eyes in assessing its best players. I suspect past managers, some more than others, would have come from the biased, British sensibilities that lower league teams would be automatically superior to the best Irish ones. Perhaps Tardelli will view it with a fairer eye (although the answer may still be the same of course).

One things for sure; someone, some journalist, at some point, is going to ask the direct question "but what about the LoI Trap?" and then the firm answer will be got.

[A face]

9 page threads tend to make me avoid them like the plague, so dunno if anyone has made this point; but as I see it, there's a possibility, however slim, that Trap & Tardelli will approach the LoI question with fresh, relatively unbiased eyes in assessing its best players. I suspect past managers, some more than others, would have come from the biased, British sensibilities that lower league teams would be automatically superior to the best Irish ones. Perhaps Tardelli will view it with a fairer eye (although the answer may still be the same of course).

One things for sure; someone, some journalist, at some point, is going to ask the direct question "but what about the LoI Trap?" and then the firm answer will be got.

I dont agree. The people that they speak to in the FAI will turn them off the idea. Everyone they talk to will turn them off the idea before they even get a chance.

[bigmac]

Or they may look at the UEFA rankings and decide straight away that they don't want to consider any players from a league that isn't one of the top 30 in Europe.

[CuanaD]

Or they may look at the UEFA rankings and decide straight away that they don't want to consider any players from a league that isn't one of the top 30 in Europe.
then in 2 years time, when we ARE in the top 30 in Europe, they'll decide they don't want to consider any players from a league that isn't one of the top 20 in Europe - etc etc etc


:( :mad:









why do I support a league who's FA has no belief in its quality?

[bigmac]

then in 2 years time, when we ARE in the top 30 in Europe, they'll decide they don't want to consider any players from a league that isn't one of the top 20 in Europe - etc etc etc


Or then again, maybe they will. (and it's a big assumption to say we'll be in the top 30 in 2 years.) If an EL team manages to get to the UEFA group stages, then it provides a platform from which players can stake a claim for an international spot. Passinginterest spells it out what the EL needs to be aiming for to provide itself with serious credibility beyond its present fans.

Until then however, I have no problem with a manager drawing his team from the premier league and championship in England. There may be an argument to be made about League 1 players versus EL players, but for the most part, they are themselves just squad fillers, with little chance of getting a game. When I look at the Brazil squad, there isn't anybody there that I would omit in favour of an EL player, and there would be several more English based players that I would call up before turning to the EL.

On a final point, I think it would be extremely counter-productive to call up a player as a token gesture when that player hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of getting a game.

[Wangball]

I thought his comment was dismissive of eircom League players who currently do have the ability to play at international level and i was just curious as to what degree he stood by this position, to what level do LOI players need to reach for him to deem them worthy of an international call up AND still play in this league. What is the benchmark that needs to be reached before that can happen or was his opinion just a sweeping 'that'll never be able to get one while still in this league, never ....... NEVER !!"

I'm not being dismissive...if there are players in the EL good enough to play for the senior national side they're not gonna prove it playing in the EL, Clinton Morrison is scoring goals against international goalkeepers in the Championship whilst being marked by international defenders, Jason Brne will presumably be scoring goals against part timers & in many cases has been defenders - how can you make a case that Byrne should be in the squad ahead of Morrison or any player thats scoring or competing in the Championship??? Same for Gamble - why is he more deserving of a call up than any midfielder from the Championship - players who play against a higher quality of opposition week in week out

[sligoman]

Heard tonight that Tardelli will visit all EL grounds. He's going to spend a month in Ireland.

[Ambaiste!]

Heard tonight that Tardelli will visit all EL grounds. He's going to spend a month in Ireland.

Great news, just a shame that it takes someone from the outside to take a step that's long overdue IMO. If he doesn't think anyone's good enough, then fair enough, but at least he's looking.

[finnpark]

Great news, just a shame that it takes someone from the outside to take a step that's long overdue IMO. If he doesn't think anyone's good enough, then fair enough, but at least he's looking.

Yes, thats all we can ask. Give the league the respect it deserves. I thought they would. Unlike Staunton and McCarthy they will examine every avenue and leave no stone unturned. Thats called professionalism!

Should they go for Doyle and Parkhouse up front or perhaps Murphy and Gethins would be a more balanced partnership! :cool:

[TonyD]

When I look at the Brazil squad, there isn't anybody there that I would omit in favour of an EL player,

Well, to be fair, I wouldn't pick an EL player for Brazil either. Anyway, I'm afraid Keith Fahey doesn't qualify. :D

[deecay]

Keith Fahey is 10 times the player Joe Gamble will ever be,Healy is ahead of Gamble in my books

[finnpark]

Keith Fahey is 10 times the player Joe Gamble will ever be,Healy is ahead of Gamble in my books

From my limited byt eagle eyed viewing of both players last season I agree. Gamble is a hasher and Healy is a class above him.

If I were to name the 4 best players (1 defender, 1 gkp, 1 midfielder and 1 striker) in the EL they would be:

Murphy (Bohs) Gk
Gartland (Drogs) CB
Robinson (Drogs) RM
Zayed (Drogs) FWD

Murphy is as good and better than most options bar Given. All the other keepers are rejects from various clubs in England and Murphy has had over 20 clean sheets here last season. Bohs are lucky to have him. He is better than Henderson (I am 100% sure about that - I am better than Henderson). I think hes as good as Doyle and Joe Murphy, matter of opinion I suppose. He should be in top 3 I think.

Gartland is way better than O'Dea but thats about it. I think he should also be a squad member.

Robinson is definitely good enough for International level. A class act but at 27 is getting old. Hes not as good as McGeady but is on a par with miller and miles better than Keogh.

Zayed is very good at winning the ball, holding it up and excellent in the air. But hes probably not a very good goalscorer. I don't think that he deserves to be in the panel.

I think in Ireland's weak positions, Gartland and Murphy are credible candidates. Robinson is also good enough.

:)

[NeilMcD]

Yeah I agree with you on Murphy. The thing with goalkeeping is that you can judge how good a shot stopper someone is not matter what the level is, as a top corner shot is a top corner shot and all professional players are able to hit a quick shot with power into the top corner. Also his ability to come for crosses is top class and so is his ability at one on ones. The only thing that lets him down is his kicking but I am sure that could be worked upon. I would have no problem with him being in the squad, and I think he should be in the squad.

[deecay]

Mark Quigley is the best Irish stricker imo

[pineapple stu]

The thing with goalkeeping is that you can judge how good a shot stopper someone is not matter what the level is, as a top corner shot is a top corner shot and all professional players are able to hit a quick shot with power into the top corner.
A gross oversimplification. Top players will hit the ball harder, more accurately (i.e. more in the corner) and, most importantly, with less warning (e.g. less backlift)


Unlike Staunton and McCarthy they will examine every avenue and leave no stone unturned. Thats called professionalism!

This would be Staunton and McCarthy, both of whom I have seen at UCD matches for a start?

[Ceirtlis]

Great news, just a shame that it takes someone from the outside to take a step that's long overdue IMO. If he doesn't think anyone's good enough, then fair enough, but at least he's looking.

So you think that Brian Kerr didnt have a knowledge of whether the league was good enough before he took charge, even though his only job in senior management was in Ireland, before taking the national job. Steve Staunton made mutterings about the league as well though that was just to keep the sort of people that are commenting on this forum happy. He should have just come straight out and said he didnt rate the league as good enough for picking internationals.

[Ceirtlis]

From my limited byt eagle eyed viewing of both players last season I agree. Gamble is a hasher and Healy is a class above him.

If I were to name the 4 best players (1 defender, 1 gkp, 1 midfielder and 1 striker) in the EL they would be:

Murphy (Bohs) Gk Swansea City
Gartland (Drogs) CBBarnsley
Robinson (Drogs) RM
Zayed (Drogs) FWDBlackburn,Crewe,Aalesund,Some team in the US

Murphy is as good and better than most options bar Given. All the other keepers are rejects from various clubs in England and Murphy has had over 20 clean sheets here last season. Bohs are lucky to have him. He is better than Henderson (I am 100% sure about that - I am better than Henderson). I think hes as good as Doyle and Joe Murphy, matter of opinion I suppose. He should be in top 3 I think.

Gartland is way better than O'Dea but thats about it. I think he should also be a squad member.

Robinson is definitely good enough for International level. A class act but at 27 is getting old. Hes not as good as McGeady but is on a par with miller and miles better than Keogh.

Zayed is very good at winning the ball, holding it up and excellent in the air. But hes probably not a very good goalscorer. I don't think that he deserves to be in the panel.

I think in Ireland's weak positions, Gartland and Murphy are credible candidates. Robinson is also good enough.

:)

Gartland is way better than O'Dea, get off the stage.

[Ambaiste!]

So you think that Brian Kerr didnt have a knowledge of whether the league was good enough before he took charge, even though his only job in senior management was in Ireland, before taking the national job. Steve Staunton made mutterings about the league as well though that was just to keep the sort of people that are commenting on this forum happy. He should have just come straight out and said he didnt rate the league as good enough for picking internationals.

I think that the standard in the LOI is improving at a rapid rate, while the quality of player being picked for the national side is similarly diminishing. More importantly, it will take an element of cojones to break with the norm on this issue, which is somehting I wouldn't associate with Brian Kerr. I'm also hopeful that someone who won't be swayed by the LOI stigma will be able to make an informed assessment on the best way forward for Irish football without the handicap of the Premiership-tinted glasses sported by his predecessors and the FAI top brass.

[jmurphyc]

I think that the standard in the LOI is improving at a rapid rate, while the quality of player being picked for the national side is similarly diminishing.

I haven't been to a great deal of LOI games, but from the small amount of games that I've seen I would agree with this. I first went in 2005 (a few years after moving back to Ireland) and that season - perhaps in my ignorance - thought the standard was quite poor. But after going to a fair few games last season, I thought the standard had improved an awful lot as the players didn't seem to be making as many errors and seemed to be a bit technically better than from what I previously remembered.

[jebus]

I think that the standard in the LOI is improving at a rapid rate, while the quality of player being picked for the national side is similarly diminishing. More importantly, it will take an element of cojones to break with the norm on this issue, which is somehting I wouldn't associate with Brian Kerr. I'm also hopeful that someone who won't be swayed by the LOI stigma will be able to make an informed assessment on the best way forward for Irish football without the handicap of the Premiership-tinted glasses sported by his predecessors and the FAI top brass.

And how do you know Staunton and Kerr didn't have a look around the league, decided it wasn't up to it and looked elsewhere? What would you say if Trappatoni came out and said the Eircom League wasn't up to scratch so he won't be picking any players from there? What if he doesn't pick any eL players in his two years with us? Will you accuse him of having a Permiership bias? Or just having made a sound judgement?

[Ambaiste!]

And how do you know Staunton and Kerr didn't have a look around the league, decided it wasn't up to it and looked elsewhere?

Staunton wouldn't know a good player if one jumped out of his ass, and I've answered your question about Kerr in the post you quoted.



What would you say if Trappatoni came out and said the Eircom League wasn't up to scratch so he won't be picking any players from there? What if he doesn't pick any eL players in his two years with us? Will you accuse him of having a Permiership bias? Or just having made a sound judgement?
Like I said, I would be hopeful that this wouldn't be the case, but I'll cross that bridge when we come to it. :)

[GavinZac]

I haven't been to a great deal of LOI games, but from the small amount of games that I've seen I would agree with this. I first went in 2005 (a few years after moving back to Ireland) and that season - perhaps in my ignorance - thought the standard was quite poor. But after going to a fair few games last season, I thought the standard had improved an awful lot as the players didn't seem to be making as many errors and seemed to be a bit technically better than from what I previously remembered.

It depends on the game, really, and I suppose the surface. You're going to have good games and bad games in any league and the last English game I watched, Boro v Sheff United would've looked at home in Flancare Park.

[Lim till i die]

the last English game I watched, Boro v Sheff United would've looked at home in Flancare Park.

Curse that Alan Matthews and his hoofball tactics :p

[GavinZac]

Curse that Alan Matthews and his hoofball tactics :p

Exactly :D