Trapatonni and the Eircom League

[jebus]

Championship standard is a far superior standard that much I do know.

I seem to recall us being on the same side in this debate with the eL circus in quite a few threads now, never gets old does it :D

[Ambaiste!]

But when Doyle was in the EL, he stood out significantly ahead of the other strikers in the league and would have merited a call-up then (similar to Crowe when he was called up). There is no one at the moment who stands out like Doyle did, the fact that Zayed (a good striker in EL terms but far from head and shoulders above the rest) is being touted shows that.

But the point is that Doyle didn't get called up until he moved to Reading, seemingly making him a top-class striker overnight.

Personally, I don't think Zayed is in the same class as Doyle, and I think it's unlikely that he would do the trick up front for Ireland, but to dismiss him out of hand just because he plays for Drogheda, while persisting with the call-up of proven failures such as Elliott, Lee and various other nearly men from the lower English leagues makes no sense to me.

[Blue-Army]

No one ever said anything like that, but the likes of Gartland and Zayed should be considered equally to any other players for the Ireland squad. If they were playing Championship in England (which they could) you'd be raving about them.
doubt it....what about Colin Hawkins? forget about him...I don't blame you..He's only played 13 times since joining from Shels in 2006.

[jmurphyc]

Personally, I don't think Zayed is in the same class as Doyle, and I think it's unlikely that he would do the trick up front for Ireland, but to dismiss him out of hand just because he plays for Drogheda, while persisting with the call-up of proven failures such as Elliott, Lee and various other nearly men from the lower English leagues makes no sense to me.

Elliot is not a proven failure. He has been unlucky with injuries. Most times he's played for Ireland he's played quite well. He'll probably never get to the level that he could have attained, but it's not due to his ability.

[half_full]

Regardless of whether Drogheda etc. would be comfortable in the English second division, there are LoI players worthy of a call up.

Hopefully Trappatoni will be unlike almost every other Irish manager and give this league respect.

[Ambaiste!]

Elliot is not a proven failure. He has been unlucky with injuries. Most times he's played for Ireland he's played quite well. He'll probably never get to the level that he could have attained, but it's not due to his ability.

Fair enough, but the fact remains that he, and others mentioned are probably never going to cut it. They've had their chance, why not give someone else a fair crack of the whip? I genuinely can't see the harm.

[pineapple stu]

Zayed had his chance too - Crewe rejected him. So he's a failure too. He's had a fair crack of the whip, to use your phrase.

Also, when Doyle left, he had something like 10 goals in 14 games. O'Donovan had 20 goals in 20 games. Don't have Zayed's stats offhand, but if he got 10 goals in a season, I'd be surprised. There's no comparison, even between those two.

[half_full]

Right, Zayed was mentioned on the off hand, but the thread is relvolving around him. For instance IF Jason Byrne/Mooney etc. hits 20 plus this season, then he SHOULD be given a call up to a meaningful match.

Why should Crewe be the judge of a player?

[pineapple stu]

Byrne did hit 20 goals a season, for four seasons. He went to cardiff and failed. Mooney went on trial with Crystal Palace and failed. Sorts your whine about only using Crewe as an example.

Spotting a trend yet?

[micls]

Mooney went on trial with Crystal Palace and failed. ?

:confused: Mooney was offered an 18 month contract

[GavinZac]

But when Doyle was in the EL, he stood out significantly ahead of the other strikers in the league
No, no he didnt. He didnt stand out all that much even at City. He had a good run of form, and was swept off to reading. Denis Behan had a similar run of form and hasnt been signed, because the transfer window was closed at the time of his scoring run. Doyler was initialled called up because of the club he was at and would not have been considered if he had stayed put, the same as Behan has not been called up.

[sullanefc]

Good argument. Get Given out - Quigley in!

:rolleyes:


Well goalkeeper is definitely a position where I feel the eL is stronger than UK bar Shay Given. I can't see too many other positions on the team though. Joe Gamble is as close there is to an international outfield player in the eL IMO.

Try reading my posts. AND it's only a day old.:eek::rolleyes:

[half_full]

Byrne did hit 20 goals a season, for four seasons. He went to cardiff and failed. Mooney went on trial with Crystal Palace and failed. Sorts your whine about only using Crewe as an example.

Spotting a trend yet?

Mooney didn't fail as pointed out already.

RE: Jason Byrne, two words: Fowler and Hasslebank. Also Byrne only got 10 games, and AFAIK Cardiff have no proper reserve side, which would have dented his chances at getting back to the first team.

[Steve Bruce]

Mooney didn't fail as pointed out already.

RE: Jason Byrne, two words: Fowler and Hasslebank. Also Byrne only got 10 games, and AFAIK Cardiff have no proper reserve side, which would have dented his chances at getting back to the first team.

Fowler and Hasslebank are both well well past their prime and are not the best in the division

Fowler and Hasslebank is the standard of player you need to be to play in the Championship. I'm afraid not too many players on this island are up to that standard. Let alone full football teams.

[half_full]

Fully aware they are past their best, still are far from poor players, and possibly good enough as Premiership squad players?

So Doyle, Long, Murphy, O'Donovan, and possibly Mooney would all be of Championship standard then?

[pineapple stu]

Try reading my posts. AND it's only a day old.:eek::rolleyes:
OK so. Carsley out, Gamble in.

It works with any combination. Doesn't make your comments any less ridiculous.

[sullanefc]

OK so. Carsley out, Gamble in.

It works with any combination. Doesn't make your comments any less ridiculous.

He hates being caught!! ;) :D

[mr.untitled]

it should take an exceptional player to make an international squad, at the moment i dont think there are any LOI players that can make that grade, the championship argument is a different one, IMO there are a host of payers who would hold their own in that league (but not at the top few clubs which is where any internationals might come from)
Stu your brand of pesamism (as opposed to realism) is wholy depressing,

[pineapple stu]

No-one yet has managed to show why I'm not being realistic.

Simply saying it don't mak it true...

[GavinZac]

OK so. Carsley out, Gamble in.

It works with any combination. Doesn't make your comments any less ridiculous.

Why is the idea of replacing an average workhorse with a potentially great player ridiculous? Worst case scenario, Gamble runs about a lot, wins a few tackles and always passes the ball backwards. We'd just about break even there I think.

[mr.untitled]

Its not a drogs thing as im well aware that at the moment Zayed is far short of international standard, but to draw thiis conclusion

"Zayed had his chance too - Crewe rejected him. So he's a failure too"

pesamism in my book.

[pineapple stu]

And you don't think something that's happened in real life by people who know much more about judging players than me (and Crewe would be among he best in England for that) would be counted as realism?

[Schumi]

Doyler was initialled called up because of the club he was at and would not have been considered if he had stayed putYou're right, and in his case, he would have deserved a call up when in Cork.
the same as Behan has not been called up.I can't agree with this though. You're not honestly suggesting that Behan is anywhere near the same class as Doyle are you?

[half_full]

Doyle was average enough at Cork IMO until a run of form (out shone by O'Callaghan, O'Flynn, Fenn etc.). The second he scored in the Championship he was Ireland material.

[micls]

OK so. Carsley out, Gamble in.

It works with any combination. Doesn't make your comments any less ridiculous.


Or you could do what people were actually suggesting and give them a chance as subs. No one asked that they go straight inot the first 11.

How about Gamble instead of Darren Potter
Or Mooney instead of Shane Long?

[pineapple stu]

Nope. Still not good enough. Potter out, Gamble in still doesn't add up. There's a reason Gamble dropped as low as non-league football while Potter didn't.

[micls]

There's a reason Gamble dropped as low as non-league football while Potter didn't.

There's a reason Roy O Donovan was sent home as well...does the reason still exist now?

You don't seem to think that players can develop as players while playing in the LOI

There's a reason Shane Long couldn't get his game for City ahead of Roy. Players develop. Just because it may have been true that they werent good enough years ago doesnt mean they arent good enouhg now

[pineapple stu]

Obviously. But you're talking about the exception rather than the rule.

[micls]

Obviously. But you're talking about the exception rather than the rule.

Of course. But an international team is made up of the exceptions.

When are there no more exceptions in the league right now?

I think they simply aren't recognised as exceptions until they move.

Doyle certainly wasn't considered City's best player for the majority of his time here. And the vast majority of City fans would consider a fit John O flynn to be the better player. Yet even if we had a full season this year of a fit John O Flynn he wouldnt get near the national team.

Right now I couldnt say there are very many I would consider for the national team from the league but thats not a reason not to look. This season could see the emergence of the next Doyle, but they shouldnt have to move abroad to get their chance

[half_full]

Of course. But an international team is made up of the exceptions.

When are there no more exceptions in the league right now?

I think they simply aren't recognised as exceptions until they move.

Doyle certainly wasn't considered City's best player for the majority of his time here. And the vast majority of City fans would consider a fit John O flynn to be the better player. Yet even if we had a full season this year of a fit John O Flynn he wouldnt get near the national team.

Right now I couldnt say there are very many I would consider for the national team from the league but thats not a reason not to look. This season could see the emergence of the next Doyle, but they shouldnt have to move abroad to get their chance

Exactly, the better Irish players will only choose to stay when they see opportunity is there at International level. Hopefully Trappatoni will be selecting the top LoI players from now on and players further a field than Britain.

[GavinZac]

You're not honestly suggesting that Behan is anywhere near the same class as Doyle are you?
No, I'm suggesting that the reason he wasn't called up was because he wasnt signed by an English club :confused: The point being, both players went on good scoring runs for an eircom league club. One was snatched away in dubious circumstances, the other wasn't. The former was given a call up, the latter wasn't. The defining difference here being that Kevin Doyle was being touted as an international prospect from the day he put pen to paper at Reading, despite having achieved about as much before then as Denis Behan has now.

Actually, at least Denis has some medals :p

[Wangball]

but they shouldnt have to move abroad to get their chance

They shouldn't have to move abroad to get a chance but the fact is they do, whilst there may be players in the league who might have the potential to play at the highest (higher) levels of the game they're never gonna prove that by playing EL football

[Wangball]

I reall don't mean to cause offence but if Gamble were potentially a great player, he'd not be still at Cork


Why is the idea of replacing an average workhorse with a potentially great player ridiculous? Worst case scenario, Gamble runs about a lot, wins a few tackles and always passes the ball backwards. We'd just about break even there I think.

Foreign teams spend a fortune on scouting and ever since Doyle was snapped up they've been spending even more of their scouting budgets in Ireland....if there were any potentially great players in the EL they're gone now, Gamble is 26(?) now, his chances are long passed

[bigmac]

No, I'm suggesting that the reason he wasn't called up was because he wasnt signed by an English club


Isn't that point equally applicable to players going on a good run of form in League 1 or League 2 in England and not being called up? The way I see it is that the Premiership and Championship are a standard above the EL and Irish coaches have viewed playing at this level as a prerequisite for an international cap (USA tour notwithstanding). There will of course always be exceptions, and the EL players selected will fall into this category, however I fail to see this as a playing in England versus playing in Ireland argument. IMO, if an Irish player moved from League 1 or 2 to championship, he would then be more likely to get a call-up.
Even the Scottish Premiership is viewed as a lesser league outside the top two, yet where are all the people clamouring for Noel Hunt's inclusion ahead of Clinton Morrisson? At the end of the day, as EL fans, we are viewing things through slightly rose-tinted glasses.


On the what level the League is at question, it's a bit disingenuous to try to lump it into one of the English divisions. The level of football is much more condensed than here - just a function of a greater number of clubs - so the top clubs would be 2 or 3 divisions ahead of the bottom clubs - similar to if you took the Scottish teams - Celtic and Rangers would be good premier sides, Stirling and Morton would be Conference.

[GavinZac]

I reall don't mean to cause offence but if Gamble were potentially a great player, he'd not be still at Cork



Foreign teams spend a fortune on scouting and ever since Doyle was snapped up they've been spending even more of their scouting budgets in Ireland....if there were any potentially great players in the EL they're gone now, Gamble is 26(?) now, his chances are long passed

Cork City have turned down several offers/enquiries for Gamble. He was snapped up 7 years ago and only returned because of the ITV 'crisis'. In that time he has been far more consistently the best player in the league than all the Doyles, O'Donovans and Daryl Murphys. He has been rewarded with 2 international caps and a B cap. None of his 'cappers' have played him in remotely his correct position: he was played on the right in all cases, and while well able to handle this at B level (declared one of the better performances on the day), didn't take to it in his brief stint on the right in America. Staunton then appeared to tell him to act as a second striker - i'd imagine Staunton has/had never actually seen him play.

While we're telling Charlton and Reading to feck off now, if Joe remains on his current contract, he might be looking to move in June, presumably to England. If he does so, I confidently predict several more caps, perhaps even in his natural position this time. Will that mean he has become a better player? No. Will that mean that the pathetic policy of selecting internationals based on their club allegiance rather than their ability has yet again damaged the League of Ireland? Certainly.

[Lim till i die]

While we're telling Charlton and Reading to feck off now, if Joe remains on his current contract, he might be looking to move in June, presumably to England. If he does so, I confidently predict several more caps, perhaps even in his natural position this time. Will that mean he has become a better player? No. Will that mean that the pathetic policy of selecting internationals based on their club allegiance rather than their ability has yet again damaged the League of Ireland? Certainly.

There be the crux of the matter.

If this were to happen and he was rewarded it would be because he has proven he can maintain the high level of performance at a much higher level of football.

It's one thing being the Bee's Knee's against UCD, Bray, Galway etc, quite another doing it in the Championship surely :confused:

[A face]

I reall don't mean to cause offence but if Gamble were potentially a great player, he'd not be still at Cork.

And when in your (obviously knowledgeable) opinion will there be a time when players who ARE great players actually be playing in this league?

Or more to the point, is it (a) actually the skill/ability of the player that you look at and determine this or (b) is it the scouts shipping players across the water that you rely on to determine this?

Can you judge for yourself or do you rely solely on the geographical basis?

[pineapple stu]

And when in your (obviously knowledgeable) opinion will there be a time when players who ARE great players actually be playing in this league?
How is that relevant?

[A face]

How is that relevant?

I thought his comment was dismissive of eircom League players who currently do have the ability to play at international level and i was just curious as to what degree he stood by this position, to what level do LOI players need to reach for him to deem them worthy of an international call up AND still play in this league. What is the benchmark that needs to be reached before that can happen or was his opinion just a sweeping 'that'll never be able to get one while still in this league, never ....... NEVER !!"

[Derry]

Does anyone really believe that there is 1 current LOI player who will have a role to play in our qualification for the World Cup??

The inclusion on an EL player in the squad now would just be a case of tokenism & nobody wants that

Paddy McCourt, whoops, he's already played for NI.

[Lim till i die]

I thought his comment was dismissive of eircom League players who currently do have the ability to play at international level

There are NO players playing in the Eircom League who have the ability to make a contribution to the Republic of Ireland in the forseeable future.

If they had the ability to do this they wouldn't be playing in the Eircom League.


to what level do LOI players need to reach for him to deem them worthy of an international call up AND still play in this league.

Surely this is an issue for the league rather than the players

[GavinZac]

There are NO players playing in the Eircom League who have the ability to make a contribution to the Republic of Ireland in the forseeable future.

If they had the ability to do this they wouldn't be playing in the Eircom League.
Do you not realise that this is circular reasoning?

Secondly, if its not, what exactly are you basing that on? The graveyard?

[Lim till i die]

Do you not realise that this is circular reasoning?

Yep.

Unfortunately couldn't be ar$ed wording it better.

I'm sure anyone who wishes to try really hard will be able to glean my point from it though.


what exactly are you basing that on?

The fact that the standard of the Eircom League is for the most part gawd-awful??

The fact that even the bit that isn't is cheapened by having to play against the bit that is weak in and week out??

The fact that this good bit still isn't anywhere near good enough??







Flip your question around what would you base your opinion that their are Eircom League players who would make a big difference on??

[jebus]

If an Eircom League player moves to a higher level, i.e. the Championship, and suceeds then he deserves a call up because he would have proven himself in a decent league that has quite a few international players in it. Until that time a player can run rings around Bray, Derry, Sligo, Galway and the rest and still have reasonable doubts over whether they would cut it against better opposition.

There it is in a nutshell fellas

[GavinZac]

Flip your question around what would you base your opinion that their are Eircom League players who would make a big difference on??Their ability and performance regardless of who is the opposition. A good player is a good player, be it against Ballinanty or Belgrade. One would hope that our international 'scouts' have a little more football knowledge about them in order to recognise talent than simplifying things down to 'he's EL, he must be rubbish' or 'hes at a championship club - must be a 7/10' - they certainly would have been making leaps of faith if they're calling up the likes of Terry Dixon if they're going on who they've performed against.

[passinginterest]

The way I see it a lot of people are looking for the league to run and it's only starting to walk.
The ambition for now must be to increase the number of Eircom League players in underage squads, particularly U19 and U21. In recent years there seems to be more home based players in the U21 squad at least a couple every time. We should be looking to increase this to 5 or 6 and eventually to about 50% (distant future). This will be evidence that the league is succeeding in keeping talented players at home for longer.

Eventually this may lead a talented 21 year old playing in the league to justify a call up to the senior national side, while his Irish owners hold out for the million euro plus transfer fee required.

[jebus]

Their ability and performance regardless of who is the opposition. A good player is a good player, be it against Ballinanty or Belgrade.

Do you even believe that yourself? You think a scout watching a player running rings around a 16st centre back who smokes should be recognised as much as a player of similiar ability running rings around a professional defender?

[GavinZac]

Do you even believe that yourself? You think a scout watching a player running rings around a 16st smoking centre back should be recognised as much as a player of similiar ability running rings around a professional defender?

I mean in terms of consistency. The same good player is a good player be it against Belgrade or Ballinanty.

Why did you cut out the rest of the post?

[Lim till i die]

Their ability and performance regardless of who is the opposition. A good player is a good player, be it against Ballinanty or Belgrade.

You honestly don't think the standard of the opposition should have any bearing??

I remember a lad playing for Hill Celtic in Division 4B in town.

Scored 55 goals in 20-something games.

Should he be called up??

For someone who gives out (misguidedly mind) about simplicity later on in the same post, that point is ridiculously simplistic


One would hope that our international 'scouts' have a little more football knowledge about them in order to recognise talent than simplifying things down to 'he's EL, he must be rubbish' or 'hes at a championship club - must be a 7/10'

What waffle is this??

One would hope British scouts have a little more football knowledge then to allow International talent to rot in the Eircom League.

[bigmac]

I mean in terms of consistency. The same good player is a good player be it against Belgrade or Ballinanty.


Yes, but while a good player against Belgrade will be a good player against Ballinanty, the reverse may not be true. Regardless of what we may wish to be the case, moving from EL to Championship is a step up in difficulty and not every good EL player will be capable of making that step.

However, I do take issue with the situation whereby a player moves to the Championship and is automatically called up without having played any significant number of games.