Trapatonni and the Eircom League

[Steve Bruce]

i have read all your posts and I'm not angry i just have a different opinion to you on the league and how it compares to engllish leagues

I think you either over estimate how good the LOI is or you underestimate how good the English divisions are.

But your entitled to your opinion and at the moment their is no way of proving one way or another.

However I do not think their is 1 single team on this island one league away in standard from the English Premiership.

[gustavo]

Since when did constantly comparing our league with leagues on another country decide if you are good enough internationally ?
It doesn't do our league any good when people are always looking to see how good it would be compared to a given English league , who cares ? Why can't we just concentrate on promoting our own league instead of looking for some kind of outside comparison

[jebus]

Since when did constantly comparing our league with leagues on another country decide if you are good enough internationally ?
It doesn't do our league any good when people are always looking to see how good it would be compared to a given English league , who cares ? Why can't we just concentrate on promoting our own league instead of looking for some kind of outside comparison

Because when you have someone like Clinton Morrison being left out, a guy who is doing good stuff in a higher standard league to the eL, you can't possibly expect people to take claims that Jason Byrne should be conisdered seriously, especially taking into account how much of a flop he was over there, ditto when you have people saying that bar Shay Given eL keepers are better than their Irish counterparts across the sea, especially the ones that play to a higher standard of football

[Lim till i die]

Bohs:
Jason Byrne

Cork:
Devine
Gamble
O'Callaghan
Mooney
Behan

Drogheda:
Gartland
Shelly
Stuart Byrne
Cahill
Robinson
Zayed

St. Pat's
Quigley


All, plus more, should be at least considered.

That is actually laughable

[Jerry The Saint]

If we can get away from the pointless comparison nonsense "Drogheda are equivalent to Norwich, Sligo are more like Falkirk...", I wouldn't be particularly worried about Trappattoni blocking the progress of LOI players.

Trap will obviously be making use of his support staff - I think any U-21, U-23 or B-team games will take on added importance. People also seem to be overlooking the fact that there are more senior internationals currently playing in the league than there has been for a long time.


Pats
O'Cearuil

Bohs
Crowe
Byrne

Cork
Healy
Farrelly
Gamble

Sligo
Alan Moore

Drogheda
Gartland (almost ;))


Am I missing anyone?

[Lim till i die]

Pats
O'Cearuil

Bohs
Crowe
Byrne

Cork
Healy
Farrelly
Gamble

Sligo
Alan Moore

Drogheda
Gartland (almost ;))


Am I missing anyone?

All bar the first guy (US tour??) fall into either the token cap,crocked or miles past it categories

[micls]

Am I correct in saying that Quigley & Murphy both had a craic at the "big time" in England and came back???



So did Roy O Donovan....and after a couple of years developing here he's now getting appearances with a premiership team.

[BrayUnknowns]

All bar the first guy (US tour??) fall into either the token cap,crocked or miles past it categories

What is it then ? He was called into the squad for the US tour and if i remember about 15 or 16 players pulled out of the squad meaning calling up the likes of him, Gamble, Bennett and that Lapora (spelling) lad who was playing college footie... I dont think any of that squad were first choice at all.

[Lim till i die]

What is it then ? He was called into the squad for the US tour and if i remember about 15 or 16 players pulled out of the squad meaning calling up the likes of him, Gamble, Bennett and that Lapora (spelling) lad who was playing college footie... I dont think any of that squad were first choice at all.

Hey, I just wasn't sure when the guy was capped is all!! :o

[pineapple stu]

But Quigley and Murphy are fine keepers and anyone who rates Kenny and Doyle ahead of them clearly hasn't a clue.
Really?

You think every single club manager and scout in England "clearly hasn't a clue"? Rather a big claim, don't you think?

Or is it not more likely that you yourself don't have a clue?



No disrespect to UCD on this, but I think they'd struggle to stay afloat in the Blue Square North/South, and yet are comfortably one of the Irish Premier's mainstays.
None taken. I'd probably put us one division higher, but no further than that. Which doesn't change your point.

[half_full]

In reverse of your comment to Wangball I ask if you really believe that, and if you do then that's probably a fair reflection on why the Ole Ole crowd think this league and it's supporters are laughable

Yes, Cork/Drogheda have large talented squads. And as for the other teams I mentioned, yes they would be comfortable in League 1.


That is actually laughable

I didn't mean it as a literal squad, just players who have performed both domestically and in european competition over the last few years. Oh, and I forget to mention Owen Heary:o

[Flume]

when you have the likes of Wednesday averaging 26,000 a week and they still struggle, a club getting 4-5,000 couldn't possibly survive for very long, it's simple economics


How is this even an argument? If your argument is based on the fact that we would actually be in the championship then surely the crowds would be far larger?:confused:

On the teams i think drogs and cork would survive in the championship rather easily. I think ourselves would be pushing the promotion spots in league 1 and the rest im not to sure abut.

On the international scene itself, Bohs murphy, cork's gamble, drog's gartland and our O'Cearuil.

[sullanefc]

Really?

You think every single club manager and scout in England "clearly hasn't a clue"? Rather a big claim, don't you think?


And you think that every single club manager and scout in England has seen them play? :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

You've got a huge scouting system in England dedicated to finding gems of players at low cost to strengthen the team and hopefully sell on at a profit. I'd say a sizeable proportion of scouts have seen the top eL players.

[Wangball]

You've got a huge scouting system in England dedicated to finding gems of players at low cost to strengthen the team and hopefully sell on at a profit. I'd say a sizeable proportion of scouts have seen the top eL players.

Good post - Some British managers.....Jimmy Calderwood, Craig Levein spring to mind.....have gone as far as saying that they'd be specifically targetting the Irish Leagues because of the relatively low costs involved....since Kevin Doyle was hailed the next big thing that attention has probabl grown even further

[Wangball]

oh and Wangball this section is for real football fans not people who think they're Celtic fans so go away

Sorry I had completely forgotten that being a Celtic fan makes any point I make invalid, never mind the fact I lived in Glasgow for many years and was essentially just supporting my local team who just happen to be a big side with big players, a big stadium & big ambitions....if circumstances were a little different and I'd of lived elsewhere I could of been a fan of a half baked mickey mouse operation of a team....just like you

Sorry again...I'd forgotten myself and stepped onto that moral highground reserved for people from Cork, I'll just step back down now

[sullanefc]

Sorry again...I'd forgotten myself and stepped onto that moral highground reserved for people from Cork, I'll just step back down now

Wangball by name....

[Wangball]

Wangball by name....


............go on............

[pineapple stu]

Wangball by name....
Good argument. Get Given out - Quigley in!

:rolleyes:

[Wangball]

I for one am converted, whilst we're kicking Given out sure we may aswell replace Dunne with Gartland & Doyle with Zayed.....watch out Italy

[half_full]

No one ever said anything like that, but the likes of Gartland and Zayed should be considered equally to any other players for the Ireland squad. If they were playing Championship in England (which they could) you'd be raving about them.

[pineapple stu]

Even though Zayed went on trial with Crewe, then in Division One, a couple of seasons back (as in, after he'd broken through with Bray) and was rejected?

[half_full]

Eh, have you never thought he may have improved?

For instance I would rate Zayed higher than Elliot and Keogh

[Wangball]

People also seem to be overlooking the fact that there are more senior internationals currently playing in the league than there has been for a long time.


Pats
O'Cearuil

Bohs
Crowe
Byrne

Cork
Healy
Farrelly
Gamble

Sligo
Alan Moore

Drogheda
Gartland (almost ;))


Am I missing anyone?

Healy, Farrelly, Moore & O'Cearruil all won their caps whilst playing outside the EL....Gamble was capped on that stinking US Tour that also saw Lapira capped & Byrne's cap was a complete example of tokenism...only Crowe deserved his on merit when he was on fire playing for Bohs first time round

[half_full]

Healy, Farrelly, Moore & O'Cearruil all won their caps whilst playing outside the EL....Gamble was capped on that stinking US Tour that also saw Lapira capped & Byrne's cap was a complete example of tokenism...only Crowe deserved his on merit when he was on fire playing for Bohs first time round

Not having a go for the sake of it but Byrne was playing as well as Crowe was when he got his call up.

[Wangball]

For instance I would rate Zayed higher than Elliot and Keogh


Then your crazy

[finnpark]

Even though Zayed went on trial with Crewe, then in Division One, a couple of seasons back (as in, after he'd broken through with Bray) and was rejected?

That means little. Southampton (with Strachan as manager) rejected Aiden McGeady. celtic rejected Shay Given. Everton rejected Richard Dunne. Shelbourne rejected Darrly Murphy. I think a good few LOI players are on a par with some of our regular Internationals especially in goals and indefense.

[half_full]

How?

How often have you seen Zayed?

I think Elliot has really gone backwards.

[pineapple stu]

All those rejections were while the player was very young, not while they were an established eL player. All those rejected were subsequently taken on by another club because they were good enough. Zayed wasn't because he isn't.

[Wangball]

I don't think that these players are all rubbish, The point I'm trying to make, going back to the 1st post, is that even though there may be very talented footballers in the EL right now, there are better playing in the Championship/League 1/League 2 & I can't see any EL player taking the step up and playing a role in our qualifying matches.....take for instance Keith Andrews at MK Dons, he's as good as midfielder as there in in League 1 & 2 and has arguably been MK Dons stand out player this season, yet if he were to come home & play for Bohs I have no doubt he'd look like a superstar (he's a pretty good player) & all of a sudden there'd be a clamour for him to be called up and when he wasn't people would say it was because he was an EL player despite the fact there was never a clamour for him to be called up or even put forward for a call up when he was with MK Dons

[half_full]

People have said the same about Doyle, O'Donovan etc.

Mooney, Quigley and Zayed are good enough to be considered.

[pineapple stu]

Everyone's good enough to be considered. They're not good enough to make it. By a long shot.

[Wangball]

Mooney, Quigley and Zayed are good enough to be considered.

If you were manager & we were playing Italy away and Robbie Keane went down injured, you looked to your bench & you had Zayed & Clinton sitting there ready to come on, who would you pick??

[half_full]

I would go with Morrison as he is on a good run of form

[Wangball]

Or because he's a better player

[TonyD]

Sad fact is, Wangball is right. There are no LOI players up to International standard, (that is Premier League/Championship standard.) Sad fact no 2 is that if there were player up to that standard, then that's where they would be playing, not here. No point in kidding ourselves folks. That in no way invalidates the league for me though. Pats will always be my team, I couldn't really give a toss if they're better than QPR, Norwich, Chesterfield or whoever. The truth is that unless the league takes a massive leap forward good players here will always have/want to leave to progress to International standard. Kevin Doyle is the most recent outstanding example of this. Strangely though, I would be much more inclined to support an International team made up of home based players, even though I acknowledge it wouldn't be anywhere near the current Irish team.But then I'm just perverse like that:)

Oh, and BTW, to answer the original question, no way in hell will Trappatoni even consider watching players here, let alone picking them.

[osarusan]

Sad fact is, Wangball is right. There are no LOI players up to International standard, (that is Premier League/Championship standard.) Sad fact no 2 is that if there were player up to that standard, then that's where they would be playing, not here. No point in kidding ourselves folks. That in no way invalidates the league for me though. Pats will always be my team, I couldn't really give a toss if they're better than QPR, Norwich, Chesterfield or whoever. The truth is that unless the league takes a massive leap forward good players here will always have/want to leave to progress to International standard. Kevin Doyle is the most recent outstanding example of this. Strangely though, I would be much more inclined to support an International team made up of home based players, even though I acknowledge it wouldn't be anywhere near the current Irish team.But then I'm just perverse like that:)


Well said TonyD. I agree with all the opinions and the sentiment expressed.

The most important thing for the eL right now is not some token international appearances, but a systematic effort to improve the league as a whole, so that, some day, far in the future, our best players will be able to stay in Ireland while playing for the national team.

[finnpark]

Just so you all know Shaun Holmes is not available for selection as he has been snapped up by another International side (much higher in the rankings). However, Gethins is still available. I assume he declined to play for Staunton and that is why he was never included in the Ireland squads. Im sure Liam Brady will be keeping a close eye on Parkhouse also.

[ifk101]

Why does British football have to be the litmus test? Is it so that if you're good enough to play in the British leagues that your good enough for international football?

League of Ireland football will never compete with British football - we simply don't have the resources to compete with a country that has 15 times our population. So why do we always benchmark our league against the British leagues?

Maybe it's time to open up our horizons and look at what the situation is with other countries similar in size to our own.

The good thing about Trapattoni is that he isn't coloured by the constant need to benchmark against the British game. His opinion of the league will be more subjective than that of an Irish or British coach who would of already formed their opinion of the league.

I personally don't think there is anyone playing in the league at the moment that's good enough for the international team. But I think there are a number of good talents in the league that potentially could do a job at international level. Indeed long-term success at international level is dependent on a strong domestic league. And for this reason alone the league should never be ignored.

[jebus]

How is this even an argument? If your argument is based on the fact that we would actually be in the championship then surely the crowds would be far larger?:confused:

Let me break it down for you, if I had a big pad of paper and some crayons it might be easier, but I'll use words instead. Hillsborough is roughly six times the size of Turners Cross, hence Wednesday have the capacity to get six times the crowd Cork can get, no matter what league they are playing. So it wouldn't matter if Cork were plumped into the Champions League group stage against Man Utd, Real Madrid and Ajax in revenue terms because Wednesday would still get a vastly superior attendence playing against Scunthorpe, QPR and Norwich, and so, by sheer economics, Cork wouldn't be able to afford to attract the players required to stay in the Championship, and so are not good enough to be considered a Championship team.

I really can't make it any easier than that. It's nice to see that once again it's the UCD and Limerick fans who actually have some bit of common sense in a thread, oh and I'll extend a welcome on behalf of the group to Wangball :)


Why does British football have to be the litmus test? Is it so that if you're good enough to play in the British leagues that your good enough for international football?

Because we lose the majority of fans and good players to British teams, and we also lose a lot of respect in the barstoolers eyes by saying Cork and Drogs could easily be a Championship team

[Ambaiste!]

I for one am converted, whilst we're kicking Given out sure we may aswell replace Dunne with Gartland & Doyle with Zayed.....watch out Italy

A few years ago when Doyle (and Long) were at Cork City I'm sure you would have scoffed at the prospect of their being included as well, but since Doyler's leading the line for the mighty Reading he's irreplaceable.:rolleyes:

I can't see why people are so resistant to the idea of at least giving some of the LOI's better players a chance on the international stage. If they perform then it's good for Ireland and for the LOI, if not, then we promise to shut up about it (maybe) :D I just don't see why people still consider players like Alan Lee or Elliott, who are proven to be not up to scratch, as better options than Gamble or Zayed for example, who haven't even been given a chance.

[hedderman]

Just so you all know Shaun Holmes is not available for selection as he has been snapped up by another International side (much higher in the rankings). However, Gethins is still available. I assume he declined to play for Staunton and that is why he was never included in the Ireland squads. Im sure Liam Brady will be keeping a close eye on Parkhouse also.

Parkhouse for Ireland! As the great song I heard last season in Finn Park goes, "acceleration in moderation." Brilliant. :)

[Steve Bruce]

I think Linfield are premiership material:D

[Schumi]

A few years ago when Doyle (and Long) were at Cork City I'm sure you would have scoffed at the prospect of their being included as well, but since Doyler's leading the line for the mighty Reading he's irreplaceable.:rolleyes:But when Doyle was in the EL, he stood out significantly ahead of the other strikers in the league and would have merited a call-up then (similar to Crowe when he was called up). There is no one at the moment who stands out like Doyle did, the fact that Zayed (a good striker in EL terms but far from head and shoulders above the rest) is being touted shows that.

[half_full]

Let me break it down for you, if I had a big pad of paper and some crayons it might be easier, but I'll use words instead. Hillsborough is roughly six times the size of Turners Cross, hence Wednesday have the capacity to get six times the crowd Cork can get, no matter what league they are playing. So it wouldn't matter if Cork were plumped into the Champions League group stage against Man Utd, Real Madrid and Ajax in revenue terms because Wednesday would still get a vastly superior attendence playing against Scunthorpe, QPR and Norwich, and so, by sheer economics, Cork wouldn't be able to afford to attract the players required to stay in the Championship, and so are not good enough to be considered a Championship team.


Leeds United have a higher average attendance than 8 Premiership clubs, that does not necessarily make Leeds Premiership standard. Countless Italian clubs have low attendances and manage to be successful in Europe, their also World Cup Champions:rolleyes:

When Shelbourne narrowly lost out on a place in the Champions League Group Stages in 2004 (aganist Deportivo remember), Shels went on to face Lille in the Uefa Cup First Round. Shels were knocked out 4-2 on aggregate (no shame in that). Millwall on the other hand, a Championship side at the time were easily brushed aside by Ferencvárosi TC of Hungary. If you think that there is any comparrison between Ferencvarosi and Lille/Deportivo, then there you have a serious chip on your shoulder.


A few years ago when Doyle (and Long) were at Cork City I'm sure you would have scoffed at the prospect of their being included as well, but since Doyler's leading the line for the mighty Reading he's irreplaceable.:rolleyes:

I can't see why people are so resistant to the idea of at least giving some of the LOI's better players a chance on the international stage. If they perform then it's good for Ireland and for the LOI, if not, then we promise to shut up about it (maybe) :D I just don't see why people still consider players like Alan Lee or Elliott, who are proven to be not up to scratch, as better options than Gamble or Zayed for example, who haven't even been given a chance.

Exactly, couldn't agree more with you.

[Block G Raptor]

Sorry I had completely forgotten that being a Celtic fan makes any point I make invalid, never mind the fact I lived in Glasgow for many years and was essentially just supporting my local team who just happen to be a big side with big players, a big stadium & big ambitions....if circumstances were a little different and I'd of lived elsewhere I could of been a fan of a half baked mickey mouse operation of a team....just like you

Sorry again...I'd forgotten myself and stepped onto that moral highground reserved for people from Cork, I'll just step back down now

POTM:D:D:D

[Block G Raptor]

Let me break it down for you, if I had a big pad of paper and some crayons it might be easier, but I'll use words instead. Hillsborough is roughly six times the size of Turners Cross, hence Wednesday have the capacity to get six times the crowd Cork can get, no matter what league they are playing. So it wouldn't matter if Cork were plumped into the Champions League group stage against Man Utd, Real Madrid and Ajax in revenue terms because Wednesday would still get a vastly superior attendence playing against Scunthorpe, QPR and Norwich, and so, by sheer economics, Cork wouldn't be able to afford to attract the players required to stay in the Championship, and so are not good enough to be considered a Championship team.

I really can't make it any easier than that. It's nice to see that once again it's the UCD and Limerick fans who actually have some bit of common sense in a thread, oh and I'll extend a welcome on behalf of the group to Wangball :)



Because we lose the majority of fans and good players to British teams, and we also lose a lot of respect in the barstoolers eyes by saying Cork and Drogs could easily be a Championship team

the comparison was more to do with quality of player currently at the club not facilities or Money. take it this way, If Matthews left Cork tomorrow for Sheff Wed and decided to release the enitire squad and sign the entire Cork squad, Wed would have a good chance of staying in the Championship

[jebus]

the comparison was more to do with quality of player currently at the club not facilities or Money. take it this way, If Matthews left Cork tomorrow for Sheff Wed and decided to release the enitire squad and sign the entire Cork squad, Wed would have a good chance of staying in the Championship

No we wouldn't is all I can say

[Mr A]

the comparison was more to do with quality of player currently at the club not facilities or Money. take it this way, If Matthews left Cork tomorrow for Sheff Wed and decided to release the enitire squad and sign the entire Cork squad, Wed would have a good chance of staying in the Championship

No they wouldn't. Paying out the remainder of the current Wednesday player's contracts would put them in severe financial difficulty, which would probably lead to administration and a 10 point deduction. So there :)

[Steve Bruce]

If Drogheda, Cork, St Pats, Derry City etc etc where so great, all the players would be signed by teams in England, who have more prestigue, more support, more money, better facilities, more exposure, better training methods and better presentation.

To use Shelbourne as a comparison to Millwall is silly. In that same season Linfield stuffed Shelbourne 2nil at Tolka. Does that mean we are even better again? We then beat them again the following year in the group stages at Windsor and then we had a very good draw at Tolka when being down to 10 men via a refereeing disgrace.

Since then their hasn’t been a team as good as that Shelbourne side, so the standard at the very top end has dropped.(I think the bottom and middle has improved though, making the league a lot more competitive.)

The top 4 teams in the LOI and Linfield belong to the same bracket of footballing standard. This isn’t a comparison of opinion, this is a comparison of direct head to head results in a competitive competition. Linfield are not bettered by any club head to head in 90 mins. Only Drogheda have a better record and it took penalties for them to have that better head to head record.

But I do not think for 1 second that Linfield could compete at Championship standard. I do not think we would be pushing promotion in League 1 either. Linfield and every other top club on this island at very best are as good as a lower-mid table League 1 side. But IMO the very best clubs would compete better in league 2 around the mid table/play-off/promotion areas.

Championship standard is a far superior standard that much I do know.