AIL:Will it happen?

[pineapple stu]

You asked me to quote an example since the 60's.
No I didn't. Not unless you're taking everything extremely literally. My point that the 50s don't count was an indication that you can't go too far back in time, not an indication to start reckoning from 1960.


Cheap shots are a sign you're losing this one.
:rolleyes: Ireland is a different country to how it was 20 years ago, not Derry is in a different country.


As stated previously, Shels, Cork, Longford....how many examples do you need?
What has that got to do with the sustainability of the league in its current format? That's simply an issue of club directors being idiots. Different matter. Changing the league won't change the directors' attitudes towards money. Putting in and enforcing a wage cap will.

And that last is one of the main factors behind this AIL, which in fact indicates that the big clubs are quite happy to actively continue being unsustainable, which is one of the main reasons I (and others, who've noted this point on the thread) am opposed to the plans as they are. You've merely countered this with the hilarious notion that "Bigger money generally buys better administrators."

With regards ignoring lower teams, which you've repeatedly stated you're happy to do, this would obviously be done through reduced promotion and relegation. This will more than likely lead to stagnation, as seen in the First Division, where the same teams finish bottom every year. Relegation and promotion is a key component of leagues and should be encouraged, not suppressed. There's hardly a successful league in the world which operates a closed shop system.

Your posts on this thread seem to equate roughly to an ADHD kid - "This has failed - let's try this now!". We've been at a crossroads before (summer soccer, ten team league, twelve team league, Genesis) - nothing much changed, and if we go ahead with the AIL under the current proposals, there's no reason not to believe that nothing much will change (again) and we'll be here (again) in a couple of years with you going "This has failed - let's try this now!", while you blame your failure to attract 4000 average crowds on the small clubs and their fans ("Why on earth is it "fair" that my team should be held back...by other clubs...?").

That's the central issue causing reservation among people, not some huge conspiracy to keep the otherwise-mighty Derry City from rising far far above us.

[osarusan]

OneRedArmy now -
Whilst I'm very open to the idea of the AIL until I hear things I don't like, most of the negative posters have ruled it out based on limited information and self-interest.

OneRedArmy two weeks ago -


I care about my own club above all else, and the wider League only to the extent in affects my club.

At the minute Derry are in the plans and there appears to be a large upside potential, ergo, I'm tentatively supporting them.

If I supported a club on the outside I wouldn't be particularly happy. But since when did you have to be equitable and fair when supporting a football team?!

[OneRedArmy]

OneRedArmy now -

OneRedArmy two weeks ago -At least I was honest about my self interest. I wasn't claiming objectivity the same way many negative posters were.

Most of the negative posters have put up long-winded and ridiculously rose-tinted views of the current structure (many of said posters have spent the last 5 years on here ridiculing the EL/FAI administration) when its abundantly clear their major beef is that they will be initially excluded from the League and will be more difficult to get into the top tier on an ongoing basis.

I'm not going to go round in circles again on this but I don't believe there is a way to bring all clubs up together. Progress will result in increased inequality, the same way its done is pretty much every other league in the world.

[Redie]

Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I don't think any club has, in the past decade or two, consistently gotten above 3000 averages.

I know for a fact that the year Willie McStay was with us and we won Three Trophies the average crowd at the Showgrounds was 5,000 and the following year under Lawrie Sanchez it was similar.

I know this is probably irrelevant but watching Match of the Day last night the attendance at the Millwall v Walsall and Norwich v Bury FA Cup replays were just over 4,000

[dcfcsteve]

Hmmm...doubling our crowds hasn't happened in the past ten years...I'm going to guess it's not going to happen overnight.

To be honest - with the exception of Shamrock Rovers and maybe one or two other teams, I'd say thgere has been a significant increase in support levels for the league over the last 10-15yrs. I can remember a time in the 90's when teams like Bohs, Cork, Pats, Longford, had much lower average support than they do now. But that's an aside.


Too far back to be relevant now though. Different country, unfortunately. We can watch Premiership football instead of going to the Brandywell. As a good chunk of those people are now doing.

Network 2 showed live English football on Saturday afternoons back in the late 80's/early 90's. I rememebr distionctly watching games, and the fact that publicans in England were going crazy trying to get big enough satellites to pick the channel up at the time....

Regardless - City played on a different day than Premiership games. As we still do (as in, fact, all EL clubs do).


The average eL Premier Division crowd for 2007 was 1500-ish. It won't double just because we bring Linfield in.

Linfield aren't the thing that'd make an AIL proposal work. The key thing is the prospect of a professional sports promotion business (i.e. one that knows how to promote sport) with a direct financial incentive in the league succeeding (because they make more money if it does) putting what one would expect would be a relatively substantial sum of money into professionally promoting the league. Something that has never happened before, and is extremely unlikely to happen under eithe rthe FAI or IFA independently.

If you refuse to accept that that has the potential to have a significant and noticeable impact on attendances at Irish football, then we may as well all give up - as to believe that would be to believe that there is effectively no future for Irish football beyond the medicore product we currently have.

That is why I can see an AIL causing a significant uplift in attendances across the board. Currently, I can see no other alternative way of doing it in any sort of sensible time-scale and across the board. Can you ?

[Steve Bruce]

To be honest - with the exception of Shamrock Rovers and maybe one or two other teams, I'd say thgere has been a significant increase in support levels for the league over the last 10-15yrs. I can remember a time in the 90's when teams like Bohs, Cork, Pats, Longford, had much lower average support than they do now. But that's an aside.



Network 2 showed live English football on Saturday afternoons back in the late 80's/early 90's. I rememebr distionctly watching games, and the fact that publicans in England were going crazy trying to get big enough satellites to pick the channel up at the time....

Regardless - City played on a different day than Premiership games. As we still do (as in, fact, all EL clubs do).



Linfield aren't the thing that'd make an AIL proposal work. The key thing is the prospect of a professional sports promotion business (i.e. one that knows how to promote sport) with a direct financial incentive in the league succeeding (because they make more money if it does) putting what one would expect would be a relatively substantial sum of money into professionally promoting the league. Something that has never happened before, and is extremely unlikely to happen under eithe rthe FAI or IFA independently.

If you refuse to accept that that has the potential to have a significant and noticeable impact on attendances at Irish football, then we may as well all give up - as to believe that would be to believe that there is effectively no future for Irish football beyond the medicore product we currently have.

That is why I can see an AIL causing a significant uplift in attendances across the board. Currently, I can see no other alternative way of doing it in any sort of sensible time-scale and across the board. Can you ?

I'm not trying to big up Linfield or anything, but if this AIL isn’t about getting Linfield and to a lesser extent Glentoran playing regulary with the big boys of the Eircom league then what’s the point?

I think it is generally accepted that for all these things to happen they need the Big One and Glentoran to participate.

If what you say is correct and the Blues and Glens are not needed to make this work then why try to coax us in? Why not go with what you have now?

Or are you wrong and for these proposals to take off they NEED Linfield & Glentoran(I truly think they don’t give a monkeys about Glentoran as a single entity, but they know for Linfield to make the jump they need to get Glentoran as well)

[dcfcsteve]

I'm not trying to big up Linfield or anything, but if this AIL isn’t about getting Linfield and to a lesser extent Glentoran playing regulary with the big boys of the Eircom league then what’s the point?

I think it is generally accepted that for all these things to happen they need the Big One and Glentoran to participate.

If what you say is correct and the Blues and Glens are not needed to make this work then why try to coax us in? Why not go with what you have now?

Or are you wrong and for these proposals to take off they NEED Linfield & Glentoran(I truly think they don’t give a monkeys about Glentoran as a single entity, but they know for Linfield to make the jump they need to get Glentoran as well)

Linfield and the Glens provide the "news" that will get people excited and get the media interested. They also provide 2 'big' clubs to go alongside the EL's 'big' clubs. So in that way they are necessary.

But if you're suggesting that the lure of Linfield and Glentoran, when added to a load of Eircom League teams, would be sufficientin-of it's own for an AIL to work, then you're wrong. The Setanta Cup clearly shows this. Increased professional Marketing of the EL on its own without the Belfats clubs would undoubtedly improve the league's standing - but it would be a lot slower and wouldn't have the 'big bang' effect of having something substantially new to hook the marketing on, so it would be less successful.

So the Northern teams provide the 'news' around which the marketing can create excitement. But without the marketing, they wouldn't make any sizeable difference on their own (again - as shown by the Setanta Cup). Sorry to burst the perennial bubble of Linfield self-importance...:D

[Steve Bruce]

Linfield and the Glens provide the "news" that will get people excited and get the media interested. They also provide 2 'big' clubs to go alongside the EL's 'big' clubs. So in that way they are necessary.

But if you're suggesting that the lure of Linfield and Glentoran, when added to a load of Eircom League teams, would be sufficientin-of it's own for an AIL to work, then you're wrong. The Setanta Cup clearly shows this. Increased professional Marketing of the EL on its own without the Belfats clubs would undoubtedly improve the league's standing - but it would be a lot slower and wouldn't have the 'big bang' effect of having something substantially new to hook the marketing on, so it would be less successful.

So the Northern teams provide the 'news' around which the marketing can create excitement. But without the marketing, they wouldn't make any sizeable difference on their own (again - as shown by the Setanta Cup). Sorry to burst the perennial bubble of Linfield self-importance...:D


As Linfield has shown already in SC we consistantly bring the biggest crowds and we are consistantly challanging. It's not like we need an AIL either sorry to burst your bubble small fry;)

[dcfcsteve]

As Linfield has shown already in SC we consistantly bring the biggest crowds and we are consistantly challanging. It's not like we need an AIL either sorry to burst your bubble small fry;)

Conversely to your own inflated claims, I never said Linfield needed an AIL !

I have no doubt the Blues would rather remain a whale in a duck pond.

Ironically - it seems their fate in this regards may well rest in the hands of their bitter rivals Glentoran, more than it does their own.

[Steve Bruce]

Conversely to your own inflated claims, I never said Linfield needed an AIL !

I have no doubt the Blues would rather remain a whale in a duck pond.

Ironically - it seems their fate in this regards may well rest in the hands of their bitter rivals Glentoran, more than it does their own.

As Linfield has proved, we are quite dominant whether we play Northern Ireland sides or Eircom League sides. With only 1 team marginally more successful and even then they needed pens to beat us when we where out on our feet(due to a hectic season coming to an end)

So whether a whale in a duck pond or not, we have proved our class in every tournement played on this island.

We have nothing to prove

[garyderry]

Conversely to your own inflated claims, I never said Linfield needed an AIL !

I have no doubt the Blues would rather remain a whale in a duck pond.

Ironically - it seems their fate in this regards may well rest in the hands of their bitter rivals Glentoran, more than it does their own.

If an AIL takes of and is a success without them, they wont be much of a whale, as they wont be generating enough money to compete with the glens for wages etc. the marketing and prize money etc will be much greater for the teams in the AIL, they will be left playing (no disrespect to the clubs) the likes of limivady, dungannon, institute etc. how long would the fans turn up, especially with the bigger teams in the IL playing the bigger teams in the EL, and all the tv coverage etc. all focused on the glens.

Conversely an AIL does need the likes of linfield, glentoran, newry etc.
to market the league and make the money from it, they need the catchment
of the entire population of Ireland north & south, and Linfield's fan base and more important prospective fan base would provide a massive boost to that.

I think long term linfield needs an AIL to progress and an AIL needs linfield
Realistically they wont happen without each other (even if the glens jump ship)

[garyderry]

As Linfield has proved, we are quite dominant whether we play Northern Ireland sides or Eircom League sides. With only 1 team marginally more successful and even then they needed pens to beat us when we where out on our feet(due to a hectic season coming to an end)

So whether a whale in a duck pond or not, we have proved our class in every tournement played on this island.

We have nothing to prove

I think you will see a different layout this season with the leveling of the playing fields, re dates for the games in the groups.

[Steve Bruce]

I think you will see a different layout this season with the leveling of the playing fields, re dates for the games in the groups.

I think it will suit IL teams more than LOI teams to be honest.

Linfields most success in the SC was when the matches where in November. So I'm now more expectant than ever in this years SC as we wont be out on our feet like the last two seasons.

[pineapple stu]

I know for a fact that the year Willie McStay was with us and we won Three Trophies the average crowd at the Showgrounds was 5,000 and the following year under Lawrie Sanchez it was similar.
But that was while you were having success (assuming I get over my initial scepticism of a sentence with the word "fact" so prominently featuring. Didn't keep up in the long run, which is my point.


To be honest - with the exception of Shamrock Rovers and maybe one or two other teams, I'd say thgere has been a significant increase in support levels for the league over the last 10-15yrs. I can remember a time in the 90's when teams like Bohs, Cork, Pats, Longford, had much lower average support than they do now. But that's an aside.
Disagree really. Certainly, even five or six years back, Shels, Bohs, Pat's and Rovers brought a lot more to Belfield than they do now. From what I've seen, there hasn't been a significant improvement in the past decade.


Network 2 showed live English football on Saturday afternoons back in the late 80's/early 90's
Regardless - City played on a different day than Premiership games. As we still do (as in, fact, all EL clubs do).
Not relevant. People associate with English clubs. They "support" English clubs. One live top game a week versus twenty live top games a week - it's all the easier to ignore the eL/IL/AIL now. That's my point.


If you refuse to accept that that has the potential to have a significant and noticeable impact on attendances at Irish football, then we may as well all give up - as to believe that would be to believe that there is effectively no future for Irish football beyond the medicore product we currently have.
The Setanta Cup didn't have any significant and noticeable (seriously - bold italics and underline just scream "Ignore me") impact on attendances. Summer soccer didn't. Ten team/twelve team league didn't. European success didn't. Full time clubs didn't. 30+ live games a season didn't. Why's this going to be any different? That's why I still think that an AIL is not nearly as important as people make it out to be.

[dcfcsteve]

Disagree really. Certainly, even five or six years back, Shels, Bohs, Pat's and Rovers brought a lot more to Belfield than they do now. From what I've seen, there hasn't been a significant improvement in the past decade.

I'm talkign a little bit further back than that - back to the mid-90's, from which time there has been a noticeable increase in general support levels at most clubs. How long have been following LOI, out of curiousity ?


The Setanta Cup didn't have any significant and noticeable (seriously - bold italics and underline just scream "Ignore me") impact on attendances. Summer soccer didn't. Ten team/twelve team league didn't. European success didn't. Full time clubs didn't. 30+ live games a season didn't. Why's this going to be any different? That's why I still think that an AIL is not nearly as important as people make it out to be.

This is shockingly obvious PS.

There was practically no marketing put behind any of the above - including the Setanta Cup. On the contrary, a wealthy professional sports marketing group (the hint is in their job description) are looking to establish a league that they will directly benefit from financially if it a success. That would suggest to be that they have the knowledge, experience, finances/access to finances and will to successfully market Irish football for the first time, er, ever....! I don't believe weither the FAI or IFA can meet any one of the 4 criteria above (or maybe one - experience - at a stretch).

That's why it'll be different. Or do yuo just think Platinum would set-up a new league and then sit back without making any efforts to promote it....? :confused: If not, then you've answered your own question....

[Redie]

Originally Posted by pineapple stu
But that was while you were having success (assuming I get over my initial scepticism of a sentence with the word "fact" so prominently featuring. Didn't keep up in the long run, which is my point.

Holy S**t! Is this CSI Dublin. Do you spend your day forensically analysing every post. 'I know for a fact' is a turn of phrase that was inserted almost sub-consciously and the word fact is no more prominent than any other word in the post.

By the way I would find it very hard to argue with your deduction that we got big crowds that year because we were 'having success'.

[garyderry]

Disagree really. Certainly, even five or six years back, Shels, Bohs, Pat's and Rovers brought a lot more to Belfield than they do now. From what I've seen, there hasn't been a significant improvement in the past decade.

Now your taking the ****, just because less opposition fans travel to that kip you call a ground, where its always freezing, the stand always looks ready to collapse, the football is crap on a tiny pitch where no one ever produces decent football. It has to be the worst experience of an away ground in the league.

Off course the away fans at the ground have deteriorated over the years, maybe the new ground and pitch might be better, here's praying.
Its the home crowds of these clubs that count.

Even when the weather IS good there (the very odd time with summer football), the Nazi's you call stewards force you into the stand so it actually looks like there are people there.

[OneRedArmy]

Delaney says "careful now" in BBC article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/7193678.stm

[Jerry The Saint]

This is a significant step IMO, despite the mildly negative headline.




"Given time I think this may happen, I'm sure of that," he said.

"It should be done step-by-step, not in a mad rush the way that's been talked about now seems to involve,"

"At the right juncture and if it was supported on both sides of the border and done in a way that wasn't divisive then from a personal point of view I'd like it to happen.

"I've spoken to Howard Wells about it and we'll be meeting again at the end of the month where it will be one of a wide range of issues we'll be discussing.

"It can't happen without us - I think everyone has to accept that.

"Without our support then there's no recognition from Uefa.

"Personally I think it's important that we set up a working group with possibly the two governments involved to see if it would work.

"But any quicker than the end of the current contract over the Eircom League is not going to work in my opinion."

So we have confirmation that the FAI are in favour of an AIL and have discussed it with the IFA. Timing and control of this league are all a matter of negotiation between the associations and the clubs that are driving this.

The clubs have made noises about starting the league as early as this year which always seemed like a tactic to show that they are serious and get the story out into the public domain. IFA say "Not this year", FAI say "Not before 2012" (due to some mysterious contract - new TV contract? eircom sponsorship contract?)

It will now be up to the various parties to come up with their real bargaining positions and work out a deal.

[MariborKev]

The clubs have made noises about starting the league as early as this year which always seemed like a tactic to show that they are serious and get the story out into the public domain. IFA say "Not this year", FAI say "Not before 2012" (due to some mysterious contract - new TV contract? eircom sponsorship contract?)

It will now be up to the various parties to come up with their real bargaining positions and work out a deal.


It refers to the Participation Agreement signed in 2007, which binds the clubs for five years. I assume those involved in the Platnium One are in discussions with legal sources as to how clubs can get out of this agreement.

[Bald Student]

Now your taking the ****, just because less opposition fans travel to that kip you call a ground, where its always freezing, the stand always looks ready to collapse, the football is crap on a tiny pitch where no one ever produces decent football.A source with some inside knowledge told me that Platimum One are planning to guarantee a 15% improvement in the weather for the first 3 years of any new league.

[osarusan]

A source with some inside knowledge told me that Platimum One are planning to guarantee a 15% improvement in the weather for the first 3 years of any new league.

:D very good.

[passerrby]

It refers to the Participation Agreement signed in 2007, which binds the clubs for five years. I assume those involved in the Platnium One are in discussions with legal sources as to how clubs can get out of this agreement.

all clubs must sign up to this every year before been admitted to the league.so if you any club has applied for a licence they have committed to play in the eorcom league for the coming season.

[passerrby]

I read it differently It says it will not run in the lifetime of the particapation agreement and only then if all the planets are aligned and they will run it ,maybe im wrong

[pineapple stu]

How long have been following LOI, out of curiousity ?
First game was the 1991 Cup Final. Went to a handful of games over the next few years before starting to go regularly in around 97.

Your basis for your "This time it'll be different" argument appear fairly similar to what we've heard before. Kind of like Homer Simpson trying to eat the crisps and the puppies always eating them.


By the way I would find it very hard to argue with your deduction that we got big crowds that year because we were 'having success'.
How do you know for a fact? Were official crowds announced? Do you not think that maybe winning three trophies in one season counts as success?


Even when the weather IS good there (the very odd time with summer football), the Nazi's you call stewards force you into the stand so it actually looks like there are people there.
Yes - I win (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law).

Moron.

[incident]

It refers to the Participation Agreement signed in 2007, which binds the clubs for five years. I assume those involved in the Platnium One are in discussions with legal sources as to how clubs can get out of this agreement.
I suspect that the participation agreement would be one of the easiest potential hurdles to overcome. It won't require any legal loopholes, as it's more of a bargaining tool than an obstacle.

Of course the FAI will use the agreement to ensure they have more of a say in the process, and to try and get a bit more cash, but that's expected. Once they're happy with the details they'd have no problem releasing the clubs to play.

[Redie]

Originally Posted by pineapple stu
How do you know for a fact? Were official crowds announced? Do you not think that maybe winning three trophies in one season counts as success?

Enough stu, you've crushed me, I can't win - even when I agree with you