AIL:Will it happen?

[KianD]

Can anyone post the link?


No, because its only available if you pay for an ireland.com subscription, as superfank said...

[kdjaC]

Big peice in the star today a reporter went to linfield vs cliftonville gameto gauge reaction, in between linfield fans buring tri colours they were generally for it from a footballing pov but not from a merged national team.


Do linfield fans burn tri colours at SSC games?


kdjac

[kingdomkerry]

No, because its only available if you pay for an ireland.com subscription, as superfank said...

Does anyone have an ireland.com subscription?

[A face]

No, because its only available if you pay for an ireland.com subscription, as superfank said...

Alright, forget about the link .... can someone copy and paste the article?

[brandy86]

We're on the road to God knows where

Sat, Jan 12, 2008

An all-Ireland league may be a lot closer than most people think, Emmet Malone reports:

The question of who succeeds Steve Staunton is likely to be resolved more quickly but the outcome of talks this month between the FAI and IFA on proposals to establish an all-Ireland league, as early as this coming autumn if the proponents are to be believed, seem set to have a more lasting impact on the Irish game.

The two associations have been a little wrong-footed by the initiative which comes not from them but Platinum One chairman Fintan Drury and former Derry City chief executive Jim Roddy. The pair only met for the first time a matter of months ago at a meeting of clubs held at the offices of Arkaga, the investment company that owns Cork City, but having hit it off on the basis of a shared sense of where the game here needs to go, they were, by December, briefing interested parties North and South of the Border of their vision for an all-Ireland winter league.

The scheme remains at the drawing board stage but reactions from clubs, politicians and potential backers from the commercial sector were all sufficiently positive late last year for work to get under way on a far more detailed business plan which is likely to be unveiled over the coming weeks.

Meetings with the two associations have yielded more mixed outcomes. Privately, IFA chief executive Howard Wells is said to be upbeat about the proposal although he was subsequently dismissive of the timeframe being suggested, which does appear highly aspirational. The League of Ireland's executive, meanwhile, gave Roddy and Drury a frosty reception although opinion within the six-strong committee is said to be divided. Several members are reportedly awaiting firmer proposals with open minds although others, like most clubs who have thus far been overlooked, are cool on the idea.

To an extent, reservations on the part of the game's governing bodies are only natural for what is being asked of them. While the organisers of the proposed league are anxious to steer well clear of the issue of a unified national team, they do want them to sign over their leagues' two Champions League places, two Uefa Cup places and two Intertoto Cup places while ceding control of top-flight club football on the island.

The new venture would initially have 12 clubs, nine from the South and three from the North with the likes of Derry City, Drogheda United and Cork City amongst the certainties to feature from the League of Ireland while Glentoran, Portadown and Newry Town are some of the Irish League clubs to have expressed an interest. To date, Linfield have publicly dismissed the idea although privately they have kept close tabs on developments and nobody believes that the club would not want to be left behind in the event that others were taking the leap.

The idea is that those clubs left behind would continue to participate in their respective leagues with the winners North and South playing off against each other to replace the one side relegated each season although quite how the numerical imbalances that might arise would be addressed has not quite been finalised. Separate cup competitions would continue to exist - these would offer the other two Uefa Cup spots - but the associations would have only one representative each on a 10-man board which would include four club representatives, three outside directors and Roddy as chief executive. The pay-off for Platinum One would be a cut of the commercial revenues which they would look to generate while the league would also take a percentage of all gate receipts in order to cover costs and promote the games.

With substantially increased prize funds anticipated and revenues on all other fronts expected to rise too, a majority of the League of Ireland's Premier Division sides have already signalled their desire to play ball, as it were, although nobody was keen this week to speak publicly for fear of upsetting the FAI, through which all public funding of football is channelled.

The Government's enthusiasm, though, could prove a key factor with a spokesman for Séamus Brennan confirming yesterday that, while no formal proposal has come before him, the minister is "very interested in any initiative that would lead to sport being played on an all-island basis".

His northern counterpart declined to comment on the situation but, pointedly, having been so vociferous on the international eligibility row before Christmas, did not come out against the idea. Here, too, it is easy to conclude that there is a desire for all the ducks to be in line before any public stand is taken.

Just about all of the broadcasters are said to have reacted positively and Tim Twomey of Setanta confirmed that the company would "certainly be interested" in the event that such a competition was established. The combination of substantially improved public funding, better television coverage and the large-scale private investment which many believe would accompany such a major breakthrough would, it is widely hoped, set the Irish game on something of an upward spiral.

"From a political point of view there's certainly nothing to prevent it any more," observes Shelbourne manager Dermot Keely who played for Glentoran in the early 80s, a time when such a development would have seemed utterly unthinkable. "But I've got to say the idea still seems crazy to me. People have to take a step back and ask whether the population here is really big enough to support 10 clubs with full-time squads. Now, you can say that I'm one to talk after all that went on at Shelbourne but the fact is I've seen close up how hard it is to do and I don't think that number of clubs could generate upwards of 2 million a year which is the minimum required. And talk of the likes of Portadown and Newry Town doing it is just pie in the sky."

Nial O'Reilly of Galway United believes those sort of numbers are achievable by clubs with a certain population to work off and a well thought-out plan on how to do it - regardless of whether the new league happens or not. "That's our target and we're on course to meet it but the sorts of criteria being mentioned (minimum 5,000 seat stadiums and initial attendances of at least 3,000) are the least we have to be looking at if we are serious of moving things forward regardless of whether there is a new league or not."

For clubs North of the border the requirement that they have a full-time squad would seem pretty onerous as only Linfield have even dipped their toe in that particular pool to date and they, with perhaps half a dozen full-timers, remain a long way behind the leading southern outfits in terms of financial muscle. Glentoran have a turnover of around 750,000, Linfield a little more than twice that while Lisburn Distillery, currently fifth in the table, generate just 250,000 per year. The figure for Drogheda, on the other hand, is some €3 million.

"Clearly, there's a big gap at the moment," says Glentoran chairman Stafford Reynolds. "But the Irish League sides are given something bigger to aspire to then we are sure we can rise to the challenge and make it work. The numbers at the moment simply don't add up. There are too many clubs for too few people. The fact is that something like this is desperately needed if the game here is to have a future."

[brandy86]

United Ireland: The clubs most likely to be among the 12 . . .

Bohemians

Having agreed to sell Dalymount to developer Liam Carroll, the club are on course to move to the suburbs with money in their pocket. Would have no problem meeting the criteria.

Cork City

New owners Arkaga organised the meeting of clubs where an alternative All-Ireland league plan was hatched a few months back. The company is anxious to establish an improved business model for their club.

Derry City

Long-time proponents of a 32-county league and in a particularly strong position to benefit from it. City have gained control of the Brandywell which is to be redeveloped while their support would invigorated by the prospect of regular games against the big Belfast outfits.

Drogheda United

Already League of Ireland and Setanta Cup champions thanks to the backing of several wealthy businessmen but United's journey is still in its early stages with plans at an advanced stage for a new stadium and large commercial development off the M1 outside the town.

Galway United

Perhaps the country's most progressive club over the past few years. The result has been improved community links, substantial growth in revenues and impressive management standards.

St Patrick's Athletic

The involvement of Garrett Kelleher has transformed the outlook for the Inchicore club. He bought the club, installed a business-minded board and set his sights for the football side very high indeed.

Glentoran

With 22 championship titles to their name, it says something about the Irish League that the East Belfast outfit have spent much of their existence living in the shadows of city rivals Linfield. The club is aiming to sell the Oval and relocate to a purpose-built 10,000 seat ground.

Linfield

The North's richest and most successful club. The future of their ground is in some doubt but whatever happens they seem set to win with either a major redevelopment being paid for or the IFA/government having to compensate them for 80 odd years of unexpired lease.

. . . and the contenders for the remaining four places . . .

Shamrock Rovers

A great tradition and, after some difficult years, a well run club who is finally on the brink of having a place to call home again. Being owned by fans is, however, a limitation as well as an asset with no obvious source for the funding required to go full-time or provide capital for investment.

Sligo Rovers

Like Galway United, Sligo have worked hard over the last few years to develop a new future. With land of their own to work with they have an advantage over their rivals but, while there is a great football tradition in the town, the population and commercial bases are on the low side.

Waterford United

History would suggest that Waterford should be at Irish football's top table but would have to make a good deal of progress in order to merit a place in the new league. However, the RSC has received considerable investment in recent years and the club is apparently in good financial shape.

Portadown

The other member of the Irish League's "big three" for much of the past 20 years, the club has started to renovate and improve Shamrock Park and would have the advantage of bringing representation to an area outside of Belfast but would require investment to make the leap.

Cliftonville

Historically a protestant amateur club, the club was adopted by the Catholic/nationalist community that flooded into the area near the Solitude ground off the Antrim Road in the 1960s. For much of the time since it has been something of an outsider although their chairman, Jim Boyce, was, until recently, the IFA's most important elected official. The ground and team would both need substantial improvement but there would certainly be enthusiasm amongst the fans.

- Emmet Malone
© 2008 The Irish Times

[pineapple stu]

"That's our target and we're on course to meet it but the sorts of criteria being mentioned (initial attendances of at least 3,000).
How is this criterion possibly going to be implemented? Last year (going by the stats here), no-one got 3000 average crowds. Where are we going to get 12 such teams from? What happens if your average dips back under 3000? Do you get relegated or kicked out?

Unfortunately, Jim Roddy (as per usual) seems to be ignoring problems reconciling where the league is and where he sees it in his make believe land.

[SolitudeRed]

Cliftonville

Historically a protestant amateur club, the club was adopted by the Catholic/nationalist community that flooded into the area near the Solitude ground off the Antrim Road in the 1960s. For much of the time since it has been something of an outsider although their chairman, Jim Boyce, was, until recently, the IFA's most important elected official. The ground and team would both need substantial improvement but there would certainly be enthusiasm amongst the fans.


Cliftonville are already improving the ground they built a new away stand about 6 years ago and are in the process of building a new 1600 seater stand behind the other goal which should bring the ground up to European standards.

As for the AIL I'm agree with the idea in principle but there is just not enough of details about how it will actually work so the welcome is a cautious one! Also as the article says it will probably take a lot of money to turn the club into a full time outfit!

[Mr_Parker]

As I said elsewhere, Emmet Malone has not even bothered to do the most basic of research so it is hard to take any credibility from his article. Someone said he is one of your better reporters? :eek:

[OneRedArmy]

How is this criterion possibly going to be implemented? Last year (going by the stats here), no-one got 3000 average crowds. Where are we going to get 12 such teams from? What happens if your average dips back under 3000? Do you get relegated or kicked out?

Unfortunately, Jim Roddy (as per usual) seems to be ignoring problems reconciling where the league is and where he sees it in his make believe land.Firstly, are you sure you read the quote from the Galway official right? I read ithe 5,000 as being capacity requirement (presumably to be implemented over time as very few clubs currently qualify) and the 3,000 as a projection for average crowds. If an AIL goes ahead, I think its well understood that it would be a failure if attendences didn't average over 3,000.

Also, I don't understand your last point, why do you need to reconcile it to the current league?

[OneRedArmy]

As I said elsewhere, Emmet Malone has not even bothered to do the most basic of research so it is hard to take any credibility from his article. Someone said he is one of your better reporters? :eek:I disagree. It would appear that he has been briefed by someone close to the Platinum proposals given the overall spin of the article.

[Mr_Parker]

I disagree. It would appear that he has been briefed by someone close to the Platinum proposals given the overall spin of the article.

"Newry Town"

Cliftonville

"Historically a protestant amateur club" :rolleyes:

"their chairman, Jim Boyce" :rolleyes:

"Meetings with the two associations have yielded more mixed outcomes" :rolleyes:

He states there will be 12 teams. Lists 13 and includes Portadown and Cliftonville who are both being overlooked in this proposal?


Though maybe this bit is correct...."The scheme remains at the drawing board stage" which puts all the past ramblings into perspective.

[ifk101]

He states there will be 12 teams. Lists 13 and includes Portadown and Cliftonville who are both being overlooked in this proposal?

He states that the league will have twelve teams of which 12 teams from the following list of teams are most likely to be included.

But agree there are a number of editing issues but interest in the AIL from the LOI teams seems to be centered on two Irish League teams. Maybe that's why info from him on the other Irish League teams is weak.

[Mr_Parker]

He states that the league will have twelve teams of which 12 teams from the following list of teams are most likely to be included.
Well that in itself proves my point given the Portadown and Cliftonville are not figuring in the proposals.




But agree there are a number of editing issues. You call it editing issues. I call it basic research.


Maybe that's why info from him on the other Irish League teams is weak. or just lazy.

[Ronnie]

Average crowds of 3000? I wonder what are the average crowds for the last 5 seasons for Cork, Derry, Pats and Bohs? (No point looking at Galway/Drogs etc, they have fluctauted too much to be relevant). Does the attendance thread give us any idea?

[OneRedArmy]

Though maybe this bit is correct...."The scheme remains at the drawing board stage" which puts all the past ramblings into perspective.I don't think there's been any doubt that its early doors. There's always going to be a huge element of spin in these kind of things.

Has anyone viewed the start date of this season as being realistic?

Just because someone's is taking a public position on one thing doesn't mean it bears any resemblance to reality. If they took a stance that they were looking to launch in a few years time, clubs wouldn't properly engage and would keep their cards close to their chest.

[garyderry]

Average crowds of 3000? I wonder what are the average crowds for the last 5 seasons for Cork, Derry, Pats and Bohs? (No point looking at Galway/Drogs etc, they have fluctauted too much to be relevant). Does the attendance thread give us any idea?

average crowds of 3,000 is the realistic target of a AIL as a start point, anyone who thinks its the target fro entry must be on another planet (or just twisting it for the own anti AIL views), cork must be the only team in an AIL if its the average over the last 5 years.

It is a realistic starting point as a target for an AIL in its first few seasons though to make it a success.

Given that the 12 founding members of any AIL (along with what ever company is going to run it AND the IFA and FAI) would have to set out the rules and entry requirements, anything being bandied about here and elsewhere is just guess work and rumor.

[Mr_Parker]

I don't think there's been any doubt that its early doors. There's always going to be a huge element of spin in these kind of things.

Has anyone viewed the start date of this season as being realistic?

Just because someone's is taking a public position on one thing doesn't mean it bears any resemblance to reality. If they took a stance that they were looking to launch in a few years time, clubs wouldn't properly engage and would keep their cards close to their chest.

Well at a "private" meeting with some IL clubs they stated August this year. :rolleyes:

[Mr_Parker]

Given that the 12 founding members of any AIL They wouldn't even be members under the proposals. They would be franchisees.

[ifk101]

Well that in itself proves my point given the Portadown and Cliftonville are not figuring in the proposals.

Yes and I'm in agreement.


You call it editing issues. I call it basic research.

What's to research when it's obvious Cliftonville and Portadown aren't part of the proposals. Maybe the lack of editing by Malone is to highlight this.


or just lazy.

Or irrelevant.

[Mr_Parker]

What's to research when it's obvious Cliftonville and Portadown aren't part of the proposals. Maybe the lack of editing by Malone is to highlight this.
:rolleyes::D

[OneRedArmy]

Well at a "private" meeting with some IL clubs they stated August this year. :rolleyes:And?

Do you know anything about negotiations?

Has it ever crossed your mind different information may be being shared with different people?

Business tends to work like that.

[Mr_Parker]

And?

Do you know anything about negotiations?

Has it ever crossed your mind different information may be being shared with different people?

Business tends to work like that.


So you mean the IL clubs were lied too? :rolleyes:

[osarusan]

Has it ever crossed your mind different information may be being shared with different people?

Telling different people different things.

A solid basis for a new business.

[OneRedArmy]

Telling different people different things.

A solid basis for a new business.Welcome to the real world.

Cry me a river........:rolleyes:

[ifk101]

:rolleyes::D

But don't you agree.

There're first division clubs in the LOI that currently have better facilities than both Cliftonville and Portadown, and whilst Cliftonville and Portadown may point out they have future plans so do clubs such as Finn Harps and Athlone Town. And then you have clubs such as Shels and Dundalk, whilst no great shakes at this moment in time - they both have a history of winning cups and trophies. What do Cliftonville and Portadown bring to the table that doesn't already exist in the LOI? And do we need to dig deep to realise this? The AIL is for the professional clubs in the LOI + Linfield and Glentoran.

[Raheny Red]

Big peice in the star today a reporter went to linfield vs cliftonville gameto gauge reaction, in between linfield fans buring tri colours they were generally for it from a footballing pov but not from a merged national team.


kdjac

That was a shocking article and it was in the centre pages too!

[garyderry]

But don't you agree.

There're first division clubs in the LOI that currently have better facilities than both Cliftonville and Portadown, and whilst Cliftonville and Portadown may point out they have future plans so do clubs such as Finn Harps and Athlone Town. And then you have clubs such as Shels and Dundalk, whilst no great shakes at this moment in time - they both have a history of winning cups and trophies. What do Cliftonville and Portadown bring to the table that doesn't already exist in the LOI? And do we need to dig deep to realise this? The AIL is for the professional clubs in the LOI + Linfield and Glentoran.

The only way to get linfield, glentoran and the IFA on board will be a fair share of spots for IL teams, after 2/3 seasons it will all balance itself out, the clubs not up to it will drop down and professional clubs putting the facilities in place and winning the divisions below will fill the spots, they may very well improve enough to stay up also, no one will really know till its tried

[pineapple stu]

Firstly, are you sure you read the quote from the Galway official right?
Yes. See where he uses the word "criteria" to describe it (along with the ground capacity)? "The sorts of criteria being mentioned (minimum 5,000 seat stadiums and initial attendances of at least 3,000)" Fairly clear, in my book. Maybe he's misquoted, but I'm happy I'm not reading the quote wrong at least.


Also, I don't understand your last point, why do you need to reconcile it to the current league?
You cann't just expect an AIL to solve all our problems, and suddenly lead to 3000 average crowds. You can't just come up with a vision of the future and say "That's where we're going; anyone who disagrees can sod off" You have to realise the league's place in the greater scheme of things and realise that if we haven't made any significant impact on attendances on average in the past ten years or so, we're not suddenly going to add on 50% because of some vague aspiration. Roddy is a dreamer; he has very little connection with the real world, and you need to see where things are in the real world in order to devise a realisable plan going forward.


average crowds of 3,000 is the realistic target of a AIL as a start point, anyone who thinks its the target fro entry must be on another planet (or just twisting it for the own anti AIL views)
Translation - this is my view; anyone who disagrees is an idiot. :rolleyes:

Maybe it's just a target as opposed to a criterion, but the bit where the Galway official was quoted as saying it's a criterion hints otherwise. That's all we've got to go on for now really, so you can't dismiss people's opinions as nonsense just because you take the fancy to.

[Mr_Parker]

But don't you agree.

There're first division clubs in the LOI that currently have better facilities than both Cliftonville and Portadown, and whilst Cliftonville and Portadown may point out they have future plans so do clubs such as Finn Harps and Athlone Town. And then you have clubs such as Shels and Dundalk, whilst no great shakes at this moment in time - they both have a history of winning cups and trophies. What do Cliftonville and Portadown bring to the table that doesn't already exist in the LOI? And do we need to dig deep to realise this? The AIL is for the professional clubs in the LOI + Linfield and Glentoran.

Where for one minute did I suggest Portadown or Cliftonville would or should be considered to be in an AIL? What I pointed out was that said journo included them in his list despite everyone and their granny, except him, knowing that they wouldn't be included. :rolleyes:

[Mr_Parker]

I disagree. It would appear that he has been briefed by someone close to the Platinum proposals given the overall spin of the article.

If that is the case it shows how little they know about IL football too! :rolleyes:

[Mr_Parker]

That was a shocking article and it was in the centre pages too!

Anyone got a link to it?

[Mr_Parker]

Yes. See where he uses the word "criteria" to describe it (along with the ground capacity)? "The sorts of criteria being mentioned (minimum 5,000 seat stadiums and initial attendances of at least 3,000)" Fairly clear, in my book. Maybe he's misquoted, but I'm happy I'm not reading the quote wrong at least.


You cann't just expect an AIL to solve all our problems, and suddenly lead to 3000 average crowds. You can't just come up with a vision of the future and say "That's where we're going; anyone who disagrees can sod off" You have to realise the league's place in the greater scheme of things and realise that if we haven't made any significant impact on attendances on average in the past ten years or so, we're not suddenly going to add on 50% because of some vague aspiration. Roddy is a dreamer; he has very little connection with the real world, and you need to see where things are in the real world in order to devise a realisable plan going forward.


Translation - this is my view; anyone who disagrees is an idiot. :rolleyes:

Maybe it's just a target as opposed to a criterion, but the bit where the Galway official was quoted as saying it's a criterion hints otherwise. That's all we've got to go on for now really, so you can't dismiss people's opinions as nonsense just because you take the fancy to.

Well said that man.

[pineapple stu]

The button between reply and quote is a multi quote button, by the way. ;)

[OneRedArmy]

You cann't just expect an AIL to solve all our problems, Who mentioned that it would solve "all our problems"?

and suddenly lead to 3000 average crowds.I think thats quite a reasonable expectation. Quite a few different clubs have averaged that over a couple of seasons, its just never been sustainable in the long-term.
You can't just come up with a vision of the future and say "That's where we're going; anyone who disagrees can sod off" Of course you can!!! Lots of people come up with visions in every walk of life and do exactly what you say can't be done, ie change the status quo. Most fail, but some succeed. You may not like the way its being done, or the chance of success (I'd tend to agree somewhat with both) but it can be done.
You have to realise the league's place in the greater scheme of thingsDo I? Why? That sounds like something someone in Abbotstown would say.
and realise that if we haven't made any significant impact on attendances on average in the past ten years or so, we're not suddenly going to add on 50% because of some vague aspiration. Surely that reinforces the need for change and specifically taking the future out of the hands of those who had a hand in its lack of success to date?
Roddy is a dreamer; he has very little connection with the real world, and you need to see where things are in the real world in order to devise a realisable plan going forward..I'm not going to get into a critique of Jim Roddy, suffice to say I don't believe you know him well enough to make that assessment. What is fairly well known is that Fintan Drury is no fool, and he's certainly surrounded by enough of them who currently administer domestic football.

[pineapple stu]

Oh wow... One of your more deluded posts ever...


Who mentioned that it would solve "all our problems"?
It's the general feeling from pro-AIL people on this thread. Throw a load of money at the league and it'll all get better. You, for example, trot out the old cliche that "the Eircom League has and is unsustainable in its current shape", while noting that "Full-time football has a better chance of being sustainable under an AIL model due to the cash on offer (let's leave aside the permanence of this cashflow)". So, while noting one massive problem with the plan, you believe the AIL will turn around a doomed league (an "unsustainable" one) through a vague combination of "infrastructure, marketing and proper administration". I don't hold to the cliche of "Build it and they willl come" (the old Donnybrook ground disproves that), proper administration won't really change that much and we've had more marketing in the past couple of seasons (CPOs, TV games for example) than ever before and nothing's changed.


Quite a few different clubs have averaged that over a couple of seasons, it's just never been sustainable in the long-term.
The clubs who have gotten over 3000 averages going on the foot.ie figures are Derry (2006) and Cork (2005 and 2004). I don't think that constitutes "Quite a few" by any stretch of the imagination. Only two others have broken 2000 in a season - Galway (2007) and Shels (2004). Sustainability is huge issue, and one you gloss over. The reason the clubs mentioned got high attendances is because they were going for the title (or, in Galway's case, because they gave away loads of season tickets and counted them in their crowds).


Lots of people come up with visions in every walk of life and do exactly what you say can't be done, ie change the status quo. Most fail, but some succeed. You may not like the way its being done, or the chance of success (I'd tend to agree somewhat with both) but it can be done.
You'll find the more common way of bringing in radical change is to evaluate it carefully, and show how the change is going to lead to the result. That's classified as "scene missing" so far.


Surely that reinforces the need for change and specifically taking the future out of the hands of those who had a hand in its lack of failure to date?
Do you absolve the clubs of all blame then? I wouldn't. Not by a long shot.


That sounds like something someone in Abbotstown would say.

Translation - this is my view; anyone who disagrees is an idiot.
:rolleyes:

As to why you have to realise the league's place - it's so you don't make stupid, easily disprovable, assertions such as the one you made on clubs' attendances.

I'm not going to get into a critique of Jim Roddy, suffice to say I don't believe you know him well enough to make that assessment.
I've actually discussed (or rather, listened to him talk non-stop to me) his views on this matter with him. He's a moron when it comes to planning things like this. I'm quite happy in my assessment of him, thank you very much.

[Poor Student]

I'm not going to get into a critique of Jim Roddy, suffice to say I don't believe you know him well enough to make that assessment.

Having met him a couple of times and listened to him at length he did seem to have a lot of ideas and visions which could not be achieved by what he was suggesting.

[Mr_Parker]

The button between reply and quote is a multi quote button, by the way. ;)

Where is the "thank you" button? :D

[pineapple stu]

Always thought a Thank You button was kind of a gay idea... ;)

[GavinZac]

Always thought a Thank You button was kind of a gay idea... ;)
Cheerful? Homoerotic?

[Mr_Parker]

Always thought a Thank You button was kind of a gay idea... ;)

*hunts for "**** You" button ;)

[OneRedArmy]

Oh wow... One of your more deluded posts ever...Given that you managed to proxy 3 or 4 years of guesstimated attendences into a full history of the League, I think you are as guilty of shaping the past to suit your view of the future as I am.

[pineapple stu]

Many of those figures were official. But are you suggesting that they're out by 50% or so?

How would you back up your claim that "Quite a few different clubs have averaged that over a couple of seasons"?

[OneRedArmy]

How would you back up your claim that "Quite a few different clubs have averaged that over a couple of seasons"?I specifically didn't say the last couple of seasons.

Waterford, Rovers, Bohs, Shels, Derry, Dundalk and others have all had periods where relatively large crowds attended games over a number of seasons before slipping away for various reasons.

[pineapple stu]

Over 3000 average? Want to show me when? Or do you want to keep making stuff up? (Note - the 50s don't count)

Do you think clubs finishing bottom half in the AIL will maintain this average? Or will they slip away for the "various reasons" you note (main one being Irish people are a crowd of band wagon jumpers who are happy to support their local team if there's a title or Cup on the way)

[OneRedArmy]

Over 3000 average? Want to show me when? Or do you want to keep making stuff up? (Note - the 50s don't count)I'll just get in my time machine......

Are you disputing that certain clubs had attendences over 3,000 in the 70's, 80's & 90's? And I'm the deluded one?!



Do you think clubs finishing bottom half in the AIL will maintain this average? Or will they slip away for the "various reasons" you note (main one being Irish people are a crowd of band wagon jumpers who are happy to support their local team if there's a title or Cup on the way)Different question. I thought an accountant would realise that an average involves a summing up a number of observations and taking the mean. An average attendence of 3,000 across the League is achievable IMO. Obviously there will be dispersion with the top teams averaging more and the bottom sides less, I would imagine.

[pineapple stu]

Oh I see. So now you reckon that, if the bottom clubs are getting 2000, the top clubs will be getting 4000?! Unlikely. In any case, the criterion is for 3000 crowds, which means any team dropping below that may have consequences.

The average eL Premier Division crowd for 2007 was 1500-ish. It won't double just because we bring Linfield in.

I don't think any club has, in the past decade or two, consistently gotten above 3000 averages. I'm still waiting for you to show me any evidence otherwise. Until then, your arguments are pure pie in the sky. At least I've provided some sort of source.

[OneRedArmy]

Oh I see. So now you reckon that, if the bottom clubs are getting 2000, the top clubs will be getting 4000?! Yes, that would result in an average of 3,000.
In any case, the criterion is for 3000 crowds, which means any team dropping below that may have consequences.Right back at ya. This is your interpretation of a statement and is far from fact. Nothing like double standards.......

The average eL Premier Division crowd for 2007 was 1500-ish. It won't double just because we bring Linfield in.Quoting opinion as fact yet again......

I don't think any club has, in the past decade or two, consistently gotten above 3000 averages. I'm still waiting for you to show me any evidence otherwise. Until then, your arguments are pure pie in the sky. At least I've provided some sort of source.Off the top of my head, Derry City averaged approx 5,000 in their first decade in the League. You've no basis for disputing this, other than the fact I don't have official attendence figures. Evidence going back that far is going to be anecdotal, so you've asked a question that can't be answered. Clever.

[pineapple stu]

Yes, that would result in an average of 3,000.
Well done; nothing like pointless sarcasm to completely ignore the point made.


Right back at ya. This is your interpretation of a statement and is far from fact. Nothing like double standards.......
Don't see how it's double standards to understand what words like "criteria" mean.


Quoting opinion as fact yet again......
Hmmm...doubling our crowds hasn't happened in the past ten years...I'm going to guess it's not going to happen overnight. Not the most scientific method, but enough to cast doubts on the benefits being mooted of an AIL.


Off the top of my head, Derry City averaged approx 5,000 in their first decade in the League. You've no basis for disputing this, other than the fact I don't have official attendence figures.
Too far back to be relevant now though. Different country, unfortunately. We can watch Premiership football instead of going to the Brandywell. As a good chunk of those people are now doing.

You've provided no reasons to believe that the AIL will help as much as you suggest. You've provided no basis for suggesting the eL is "unsustainable in its current format". You openly ignore the sustainability of any investment in this new league. Yet you pour scorn on any who suggest that we stop and think about this before going forward? Sorry, that's just nonsense.

[OneRedArmy]

Too far back to be relevant now though.You asked me to quote an example since the 60's. I did. Are you sure you're moving the goalposts quick enough?

Different country, unfortunately. Cheap shots are a sign you're losing this one.


You've provided no reasons to believe that the AIL will help as much as you suggest. Thats not what we were talking about. Read back a few pages and you'll find my reasons.

You've provided no basis for suggesting the eL is "unsustainable in its current format". As stated previously, Shels, Cork, Longford....how many examples do you need?
You openly ignore the sustainability of any investment in this new league. I actually think I raised the question about its sustainability myself.
Yet you pour scorn on any who suggest that we stop and think about this before going forward?The vast majority of what I have read over the length of this thread was very far from "stopping and thinking". It was outright rubbishing each and ever facet of the proposal that was made public, mostly driven by the selective nature of the proposed League. Whilst I'm very open to the idea of the AIL until I hear things I don't like, most of the negative posters have ruled it out based on limited information and self-interest.