AIL:Will it happen?

[OneRedArmy]

Presumably clubs receive money from Eircom (the sponsors) .They get free wifi from Eircom, which also works from time to time. They get prize money, which presumably is funded out of the sponsorship deal, which is all cases is an immaterial amount when compared with the annual budget.
and RTE (for TV coverage). .TV money is around E5k a game and typically goes to the larger clubs that are part of the G6.

There may be other sponsors, too. Presumably all clubs receive some of this money, including First Division clubs.Not that I'm aware of.


In a break-away AIL, sponsorship for the rump league would massively reduce and TV coverage would cease. Therefore those clubs outside the AIL would lose revenue. Therefore it is NOT ridiculous to say that they will lose revenue.Not true. See above.


To compound this, the income of the AIL clubs will increase, therefore massively increasing the disparity in income between those in the AIL and those outside. This will make it more difficult, if not impossible, for those outside the AIL to compete.Agreed. But thats a different point.

[GavinZac]

Which is why a comment like this-
portrays a serious lack of understanding (or lack of care) for the clubs who won't make the cut.Its definitely care. Very few people in Limerick care about L37 so why should we? I want a professional Premier Division. the only way I can ever see that happening is adding a few bigger clubs from the north. You, or L37, don't want a professional Premier Division? Because essentially you're saying that you don't want the quality of football on this island to improve, regardless of the involvement of NI teams. Or is it that you just want one that involves yourselves? Because tbh I don't see a professional L37 any time soon. Or indeed, given the apparent contempt LoI is held in by soccer participants in the count, ever.

[OneRedArmy]

Its definitely care. Very few people in Limerick care about L37 so why should we? I want a professional Premier Division. the only way I can ever see that happening is adding a few bigger clubs from the north. You, or L37, don't want a professional Premier Division? Because essentially you're saying that you don't want the quality of football on this island to improve, regardless of the involvement of NI teams. Or is it that you just want one that involves yourselves? Because tbh I don't see a professional L37 any time soon. Or indeed, given the apparent contempt LoI is held in by soccer participants in the count, ever.
This is a very valid point.

Its a fine line between skepticism around whether or not a professional league is viable (completely understandable given recent history) and downright begrudgery and hostility at anyone trying to progress by fans of clubs who know they won't be part of it.

I also think there is a huge amount of rose tinted glass-ism being displayed here about the status quo, particularly in respect of licensing, wage caps and the like. There is a demonstrable record of failure to implement and enforce rules under the current regime.

[sullanefc]

and when exactly will the have nots see any prize money

When they play in this new league, silly.

[Jerry The Saint]

What's the prize money like in the First Division? Without TV money (for almost all clubs), and greatly increased fines, is it possible that some clubs contributed more to the FAI than they got back this season:confused::eek::)

Funnily enough, I'm thinking of the €2,000 fine that Paul McGee incurred for L37. Add to that, the fact that their club was expelled from the league because of a personality clash and I'm surprised to see that Limerick fans have such great faith in the FAI. Maybe they'd be better off taking their chances with a group of shady businessmen...

[jebus]

Funnily enough, I'm thinking of the €2,000 fine that Paul McGee incurred for L37. Add to that, the fact that their club was expelled from the league because of a personality clash and I'm surprised to see that Limerick fans have such great faith in the FAI. Maybe they'd be better off taking their chances with a group of shady businessmen...

I've got no faith in the FAI as a competant organisation, but it's still better than handing the power over to the 'big clubs' to lock themselves into their top spots for years to come.

Plus I more looked at the rest of our fellow 'in this together' Eircom clubs who left LFC hanging out to dry just so they could get their precious licensing a year ago as bigger villians then the FAI, who I knew would **** Danny Drew over the first chance they got

[Dodge]

I've got no faith in the FAI as a competant organisation, but it's still better than handing the power over to the 'big clubs' to lock themselves into their top spots for years to come.

Plus I more looked at the rest of our fellow 'in this together' Eircom clubs who left LFC hanging out to dry just so they could get their precious licensing a year ago as bigger villians then the FAI, who I knew would **** Danny Drew over the first chance they got

Didn't you want Drew out? Or am I confusing you with someone else?

Anyway, if there's a breakaway league all clubs will have to be involved and there will have to be a pyramid system.

The problem with the FAI is tht junior football holds too much sway and their almost entire focus is on the international team. any organisation that is set up solely to look after the league clubs will be a good thing IMO

[Supersaint]

I heard kerr was on pat kenny this morning on rte talking about an AIL,anyone listen to it?

[osarusan]

Because essentially you're saying that you don't want the quality of football on this island to improve, regardless of the involvement of NI teams. Or is it that you just want one that involves yourselves?

I'm not saying either of those things.

I am saying that any moves to improve the standard of football in Ireland should focus on improving all the clubs, with equal focus given to each club, by an organisation responsible for doing so.

Creating a situation which allows the gap between the AIL premier division teans and the rest to widen does not, in my opinion, improve the quality of football on the island. It will improve the quality of a minority of clubs, while the quality of the majority of clubs, and the means by which to improve their quality, will be reduced.

[osarusan]

Didn't you want Drew out? Or am I confusing you with someone else?
We wanted him out of the club because he was a fool. But we didn't deserve the club to be booted out of the league just because the FAI didn't like him.



any organisation that is set up solely to look after the league clubs will be a good thing IMO

Agreed. But they must be responsible (and want to be responsible) for all the clubs, not just the ones which can earn them a short-term profit.

[jebus]

Didn't you want Drew out? Or am I confusing you with someone else?



I did, that still doesn't make what the FAI did to him and Limerick FC any more right though

[Steve Bruce]

I can understand why smaller clubs are against this.

How many Pro AIL would be happy for United, Liverpool, Real Madrid, Barcelona etc went ahead and formed a European Super League to let football evolve.

We would all be up in arms about it.

[sliced pan]

I would love to see an all Ireland league, have been hoping for this for years but every few years we get these meetings. I remember in the mid nineties headed by Linfield and Dundalk it was definatly goin to happen but never did. Heart says August head says 5 years at least.

[Redie]

Really we should all aspire to an all Ireland league eventually, but not by the means currently proposed, the IFA and the FAI must be the one's to bring it about. I see it evolving over the next five years through the gradual expansion of the Setanta Cup and hopefully when it does come about we will end up with a 14 to 18 team top division that will rid the current leagues of their Mickey Mouse image and do away with the totally unnatural set up of teams playing each other three times a season.

[passerrby]

[if clubs wish to go away and start there own league best of luck to them but dont ask the smaller clubs to endorse why should we.
my points are as follows

a.there is nothing in this for 16 clubs otherwise we would have been invited to the table from the start (any attempt to invite us now is a cynicil attempt to get much needed support)
b. I will take the fai over the g6 anytime.
c. if you dont give a fcuk about my clubs future i reserve the right not to give a flying fcuk about yours.

[sullanefc]

I'm not saying either of those things.

I am saying that any moves to improve the standard of football in Ireland should focus on improving all the clubs, with equal focus given to each club, by an organisation responsible for doing so.



In most countries, one/or more teams improve and the rest are forced to catch up. Are you suggesting that the FAI hold back the big clubs, and drag the small/unambitous ones forward?? Ridiculous!


[if clubs wish to go away and start there own league best of luck to them but dont ask the smaller clubs to endorse why should we.
my points are as follows

a.there is nothing in this for 16 clubs otherwise we would have been invited to the table from the start (any attempt to invite us now is a cynicil attempt to get much needed support)
b. I will take the fai over the g6 anytime.
c. if you dont give a fcuk about my clubs future i reserve the right not to give a flying fcuk about yours.

So all you are annoyed about is that Monoghan did not get an invite?? How thin skinned of you. If Monoghan were ambitious enough they would be forcing their way around the G6 table.

Remember: A rising tide raises all boats.

[Mr A]

Remember: A rising tide raises all boats.

Not when some of the boats are forcibly anchored to the bottom by an unfair system.

[passerrby]

In most countries, one/or more teams improve and the rest are forced to catch up. Are you suggesting that the FAI hold back the big clubs, and drag the small/unambitous ones forward?? Ridiculous!



So all you are annoyed about is that Monoghan did not get an invite?? How thin skinned of you. If Monoghan were ambitious enough they would be forcing their way around the G6 table.

Remember: A rising tide raises all boats.

you dont get it sullen they do not want the other 16 clubs at the table except to lend support and put some pressure on the fai thats why we should not support anything coming from the g6 ,as for forcing our way to the table maybe we can get a company to do a fancy dvd do you reckon that might do the trick
remember: leaky boats sink even the titanic.

[pól-dcfc]

I'm totally in favour of the AIL, but if certain details of what we are hearing are true, I don't want it in the proposed form. I think there should be 14-16 teams initially with scope for expansion. 1 up and 1 down relegation and promotion isn't on. 2 should be relegated each year to give 1st division clubs more chance of benefitting.

Money also must filter down the leagues, otherwise the competition will be extremely stagnant, and interest will be lost.

[OneRedArmy]

Not when some of the boats are forcibly anchored to the bottom by an unfair system.Lack of support from the local public?

[sullanefc]

Not when some of the boats are forcibly anchored to the bottom by an unfair system.

What's this unfair system? The fact that your club gets relegated every second year? That is hardly the system, that's just football.


you dont get it sullen they do not want the other 16 clubs at the table except to lend support and put some pressure on the fai thats why we should not support anything coming from the g6 ,as for forcing our way to the table maybe we can get a company to do a fancy dvd do you reckon that might do the trick
remember: leaky boats sink even the titanic.

I still don't see what you are afraid of here? With proper promotion and relegation in this new league, there is no reason why Monoghan can't get promoted to this new league and benefit from it too.

[Schumi]

I still don't see what you are afraid of here? With proper promotion and relegation in this new league, there is no reason why Monoghan can't get promoted to this new league and benefit from it too.This is the fear. Some of the reports have mentioned 1 promotion place between the two regional leagues and parachute payments to the relegated club, effectively giving the remaining first division teams at a huge disadvantage.

I'd be for an AIL as long as there's a fair promotion/relegation structure but the reports so far don't look like that's the plan.

[Saint MacDara]

Just a possible blueprint :

Premier League
St Pat's
Bohs
Linfield
Glentoran
Cork
Derry
Drogheda
Shamrock Rovers
Cliftonville
Dundalk
Dungannon
Galway
Portadown
Ballymena

First Division North
Finn Harps
Coleraine
Newry
Lisburn Distillery
Glenavon
Crusaders
Donegal Celtic
Armagh
Larne
Monaghan
Limavady
Bangor

First Division South
Sligo
Cobh
Waterford
Longford
Bray
UCD
Shels
Athlone
Wexford
Limerick
Kilkenny
Kildare

[Saint MacDara]

Promtion/Relegation: Premier = Bottom 2 relegated automatically
First Divisions = Winners promoted automatically,runner ups play eachother i.e North V South and the winner plays 12th in Premier for PL spot.

European Places: Winner and Runner Up in PL qualify for Champions League.3rd and 4th for the UEFA Cup.

Cup CompetitionsNational Cup competition entered by all senior and junior clubs,regionalised and then open draws.Cup winner qualifies for UEFA Cup.
Provincial Cup competitions established in place of current league cups.Leinster,Ulster,Munster and Connaught,junior and senior sides.

Lower Leagues:Regionalised leagues for Leinster,Ulster,Munster,Connaught and Dublin with promotional opportunites to the national league.These clubs would enter cup competitions aswell.Winners of these leagues would have the opportunity to enter the national league with conditions.

Structure
Premier League
¦
First Division North / First Division South
¦
Leinster / Ulster / Munster / Connaught / Dublin (leagues)


Any ideas,suggestions,critical comments:) appreciated.

[GavinZac]

I like it, very like the Italian Series, eg

1----------------------------------Serie A

2----------------------------------Serie B

3--------------------Serie C1A (North), Serie C1B (South)

4---------Serie C2A (North), Serie C2A (Central/Rome), Serie C2C (South)

5------Serie D (Many regional amateurs, feeding into C2 by election if needed)

A similar AIL might look like

1----------------------------------Premier

2------------------First South----------------First North

------------must meet criteria & election/playoff, eg. A Championship
3-------Second Munster-----Second Connacht-Ulster-------Second Leinster

4------------Various other local Senior leagues e.g. MSL Div 1, LSL

[osarusan]

In most countries, one/or more teams improve and the rest are forced to catch up. Are you suggesting that the FAI hold back the big clubs, and drag the small/unambitous ones forward?? Ridiculous!


At the moment, of course some teams are better than others, and unfortunately for me, Limerick are closer to the bottom of the list than the top.

But this gap in quality has happened naturally, it has happened from the starting point of a level playing field. I have no problem with that.

Under the proposed AIL structure, it appears that lots of money would be given to the top clubs to improve further, while little to none would be given to the clubs at lower levels. When a club is relegated, they are to be given "parachute money" to allow them cope in the lower league, and, I assume, to help them get promoted again as quickly as possible. This is not a level playing field. The gap in quality is being artificially widened. Even the supporters of an AIL (in its current format) have admitted that.

It is not a case of the FAI holding the big clubs back, and helping the others to catch up - it is a case of ensuring that whatever progress made by any club is done fairly.

The FAI is, or is supposed to be, fair to all clubs, and show favour to none.

This new system is openly showing favour towards the big clubs through the financial incentives available. This is not fair.



I'm not bitter that my club haven't been invited - I'm aware that in their present condition, Limerick are by no means an attractive candidate, and I know this is, by and large, a result of their own doing. I don't begrudge other clubs their progress - well done to them for doing what Limerick couldn't do and make themselves consistently competitive at the top level.

But fans of clubs not invited are being asked to support a system that actively makes it more difficult for us to narrow the gap between ourselves and the bigger clubs. We have given, repeatedly, rational arguments as to why we should not support the proposed system. These arguments have not been convincingly countered. For fans of those clubs who are invited to be surprised at our lack of support for the new system, and for those fans to label our opposition to the system as "begrudgery" or "small-mindedness" is evidence they aren't able to counter our arguments.

[GavinZac]

Theres lots of talk such as the 'parachute money' which is purely speculation.

Actually, in most places 'parachute money' is for clubs making a soft landing into the premier, not out of it.

[osarusan]

Actually, in most places 'parachute money' is for clubs making a soft landing into the premier, not out of it.

But not, it would appear, in this case. The only information we have came from a representative of a IL club who attended a meeting (Mr.Parker, I think it was), who said it is for relegated clubs.

Again, we've nothing official about this, as far as I know, but any info we have received points to a very unfair promotion/relegation system.

[OneRedArmy]

Limerick is a similar sized city to Derry with one senior football side (Derry now has 3, 2 in the IL). But we manage to fund a Premier Division team with a sizeable wage bill without any sugar daddies (and its been almost a decade since we last nearly went bust....!).

The Limerick public are apathetic to senior football and I don't see why other cities and clubs should be forced to make up that deficit whether it be in an AIL or other format.

[Redie]

Will this 'Parachute Money' give rise to a situation where two or three clubs will be battling it out at the end of the season [I]to[I] get relegated.

[Redie]

Will this 'Parachute Money' give rise to a situation where two or three clubs will be battling it out at the end of the season to get relegated.

[OneRedArmy]

Will this 'Parachute Money' give rise to a situation where two or three clubs will be battling it out at the end of the season to get relegated.
Yes, because thats what happens in the Premiership. Clubs try to get relegated.....

[Blanchflower]

Limerick is a similar sized city to Derry with one senior football side (Derry now has 3, 2 in the IL).

Derry has 3 senior football sides?

Derry City
Institute (actually from Drumahoe)

Who is the other?:confused:

[Mr A]

I think he means Oxford United Stars, but while they are in the Irish League Second division they are intermediate, not senior.

[OneRedArmy]

I think he means Oxford United Stars, but while they are in the Irish League Second division they are intermediate, not senior.I've always assumed a team playing within a senior league structure is senior, my bad if they are intermediate.

Still, doesn't really impact the above point re Limerick.

As for Stute being from Drumahoe, excellent bit of pedantry.

[Blanchflower]

I've always assumed a team playing within a senior league structure is senior, my bad if they are intermediate.


They're not in a senior league structure. They're in the IFA Intermediate League Second Division.


As for Stute being from Drumahoe, excellent bit of pedantry.
Is Drumahoe not a village in its own right? Seems to be separate from Derry (albeit close) any time I've been there.

[EalingGreen]

Just a possible blueprint :

Premier League
St Pat's
Bohs
Linfield
Glentoran
Cork
Derry
Drogheda
Shamrock Rovers
Cliftonville
Dundalk
Dungannon
Galway
Portadown
Ballymena

First Division North
Finn Harps
Coleraine
Newry
Lisburn Distillery
Glenavon
Crusaders
Donegal Celtic
Armagh
Larne
Monaghan
Limavady
Bangor

First Division South
Sligo
Cobh
Waterford
Longford
Bray
UCD
Shels
Athlone
Wexford
Limerick
Kilkenny
Kildare

Interesting post, but it misses the point in three respects (imo).

First, as proposed, the AIL is to be a breakaway "stand alone" League with one Division, comprising 12? 14? 16? clubs which happen to be from both sides of the border. It is likely (though not yet guaranteed as I've seen) that there the members will not be entrenched i.e. there will be an element of Promotion & Relegation.
Presumably the Promoted/Relegated team(s) will come from one or both of the Eircom and Carnegie Leagues, which will continue to exist (albeit minus a number of leading clubs). Therefore, your proposed "1st. Divn Nth" and "1st Divn Sth", the former having clubs from both sides of the border, is nowhere envisaged or proposed.

Second, since any new set-up will no doubt require the support (or at least acceptance) of both Associations, your suggestion will fall down on that score with the IFA, at least. That is, whilst I could possibly see them accepting 3 or 4 (even 5 or 6?) of their leading clubs leaving the Carnegie to join a League over which they had no real control, there is not a hope of their accepting the (rump) Carnegie League being effectively dismantled to allow for your "1st Divn Nth".

Third, although I think there must be a (minimum) element of P&R for this to gain acceptance from the IFA and FAI, I've no doubt that the people behind this AIL would not be happy if wide and "uncontrolled" P&R led to smaller, poorly supported clubs gaining access to the AIL Premiership to any great extent, just because they happen to have enjoyed a run of success on the field, out of proportion to their size and status.
Since TV, Corporate, sponsorship etc is such an important element of this deal, my guess is that they will restrict Promotion maybe to as few as one team per season. Further, I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to impose additional "qualifying" criteria for Promotion to the AIL. That is, it might not be enough to win your respective Carnegie or Eircom League, or even a Play-Off between the two winners for one Promotion place.
It might be they will also require minimum facilities such as stadium capacity etc, or financial guarantees, or even minimum crowds? There may also be a geographical requirement (i.e. to try to spread the member teams throughout the island)?
My suspicions as to this last aspect stem from two aspects of such schemes. From a marketing point of view, they would much prefer a "name" like e.g. Shamrock Rovers, even if they are struggling on the pitch, to a reasonably successful, but little known club like, say, Dungannon Swifts.
And overall, if there is big money (relatively speaking) to be derived from the new League, then the founding clubs will do everything they can to "pull the ladder up behind them", so as to prevent other clubs from getting a share at their expense.

[Blanchflower]

Good post, EG.

Incidentally, do you reckon Luton Town FC have since regretted voting to create the Premier League in 1992?

[pól-dcfc]

They're not in a senior league structure. They're in the IFA Intermediate League Second Division.


Is Drumahoe not a village in its own right? Seems to be separate from Derry (albeit close) any time I've been there.

Drumahoe is part of Derry. Just a suburb. Used to be a village but has now been absorbed into the city.

Certaintly any 'Stute fans I know would consider themselves to be from "Londonderry".

[Blanchflower]

Drumahoe is part of Derry. Just a suburb. Used to be a village but has now been absorbed into the city.

Funny. Any time I've been it has been located outside the city. Clear countryside between Drumahoe and the edge of the city.


Certaintly any 'Stute fans I know would consider themselves to be from "Londonderry".

Maybe they themselves live in the city?

Why the inverted commas around Londonderry?

[OneRedArmy]

I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to impose additional "qualifying" criteria for Promotion to the AIL. That is, it might not be enough to win your respective Carnegie or Eircom League, or even a Play-Off between the two winners for one Promotion place.
It might be they will also require minimum facilities such as stadium capacity etc, or financial guarantees, or even minimum crowds? There may also be a geographical requirement (i.e. to try to spread the member teams throughout the island)?You know that we already have used exactly such criteria to determine the make-up of last years EL Premier Division?

[holidaysong]

Interesting post, but it misses the point in three respects (imo).

First, as proposed, the AIL is to be a breakaway "stand alone" League with one Division, comprising 12? 14? 16? clubs which happen to be from both sides of the border.....

Some very good point there EalingGreen. The more I think about it, the more I can't see this AIL happening for some of the reasons you have outlined. Smaller clubs just won't accept it. Personally, I can't say I'd be for this breakaway league as it is currently being proposed. I think the best course of action is to allow a natural expansion of the Setanta Cup until one day the IFA and FAI see the sense (perhaps with some pressure from the clubs) of having an all island premier division with regional divisions under that but regional divisions that are fully integrated into the the greater all island football pyramid. Smaller clubs must not be allowed to die a slow death while the 'elite' clubs break away.

[pól-dcfc]

Funny. Any time I've been it has been located outside the city. Clear countryside between Drumahoe and the edge of the city.



Maybe they themselves live in the city?

Why the inverted commas around Londonderry?

I live in Drumahoe. there is not any clear countryside between here and they city. Drumahoe ends at a park locally called the "banana park". Beside this there is another housing development, right the way to the hospital and Knightsbridge, whioch is connected to... and so on til you get to the bridge. Unless the Foyle is considered "clear countryside", you're wrong.

Londonderry was in inverted commas because that's what any fans of 'Stute I know say. I say Derry.

[holidaysong]

You know that we already have used exactly such criteria to determine the make-up of last years EL Premier Division?

And you want to see a repeat of such criteria being used again and again to stop clubs that were promoted on merit from gaining access to the higher divisions? :eek:

[ifk101]

I think LOI football has improved greatly over the last 10 years or so, both on and off the field, so I don't see the need to join with an "inferior league" that hasn't developed to the same extent. With the exception of Glentoran and Linfield, none of the IL clubs would be "crowd pullers" so what's the point of replacing current teams (where there are built-up rivalries) with part-time teams with "limited brand recognition" and who are unlikely to be able to fulfil matches regularly on weekdays.

As I see it, calls for an AIL are primarily driven by certain clubs who have over stretched themselves financially in the recent past and who view an AIL as the best way to ease financial strain.

[OneRedArmy]

And you want to see a repeat of such criteria being used again and again to stop clubs that were promoted on merit from gaining access to the higher divisions? :eek:As long as my club are in I don't really care.

Obviously if we weren't in I'd be outraged.

Thats why I'm a fan :confused:

[pineapple stu]

As long as my club are in I don't really care.

Obviously if we weren't in I'd be outraged.
Pretty much sums up why your views should be ignored on the subject, to be honest.

[holidaysong]

With the exception of Glentoran and Linfield, none of the IL clubs would be "crowd pullers" so what's the point of replacing current teams (where there are built-up rivalries) with part-time teams with "limited brand recognition" and who are unlikely to be able to fulfil matches regularly on weekdays.


I don't think it would take too long for new rivalries to develop in an AIL though. A lot of eL teams are always coming and going from the league therefore making it hard sometimes to sustain meaningful rivalries outside the top clubs anyway. I'd agree though that why play Dungannon Swifts for the sake of it when you could just play UCD. I know I'd rather play (and beat) Newry City than Wexford Youths on any day of the week however. Cliftonville would also be a crowd puller I feel. Sure Glentoran and Linfield are the big two pullers but I feel there is more to the IL than just these teams and other teams from north of the border would perhaps grow in stature as part of an AIL.

[holidaysong]

Pretty much sums up why your views should be ignored on the subject, to be honest.

Agreed.

[Blanchflower]

I live in Drumahoe. there is not any clear countryside between here and they city. Drumahoe ends at a park locally called the "banana park". Beside this there is another housing development, right the way to the hospital and Knightsbridge, whioch is connected to... and so on til you get to the bridge. Unless the Foyle is considered "clear countryside", you're wrong.



The map says different.

http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|drumahoe

A clear break between the city and Drumahoe, and Drumahoe identified separately from the city of Londonderry.

The Royal Mail also considers Drumahoe to be separate in its official address of "Drumahoe, Londonderry".