View Full Version : Cascarino on O'Leary: "I just don't like him"
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 2:24 PM
Leeds have won 3 Leagues in Total. This is beaten by Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal, Everton, Aston Villa, Sunderland,
and equalled by Chelsea, Hudersfield, Wolves, Newcastle.
They have also spent 30 years outside the top tier since 1920. They have finished in the top 6 of the top flight about 15 times. At least 10 of these times came during the Don Revie era of the late 60s and 70s. 4 of them came During the O leary era. So in that context O leary brought them closer to the Revie era than any other manager on a consistant basis. Wilkinson did it for a two seasons.
Leeds are not a club that belongs in the top 6 of English football. Don Revie took them to that level where they had never been before on any sort of consistant basis. Since then Wilkinson has won a League with them but they have spent large parts of their history in the 2nd tier of English football. O Leary had them finishing 4th, 3rd, 4th and 5th.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 2:26 PM
Name me 6 bigger clubs than Leeds. Historically speaking. I can only think of Liverpool, Everton and Man Utd. Probably Arsenal. At a push leeds. No bodody else would be bigger.
This does not make sense, Leeds are bigger than Leeds.
This does not make sense, Leeds are bigger than Leeds.
That makes absolutely no sense.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 3:03 PM
He says at a push leeds. So by that logic at a push leeds are bigger than Leeds. Funny that you concentrated on the short thread which is easier to understand.
I've edited it for pedants.
He says at a push leeds. So by that logic at a push leeds are bigger than Leeds. Funny that you concentrated on the short thread which is easier to understand.
yeah , that is Funny!
hahah
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 3:40 PM
I've edited it for pedants.
You can edit it all you like its still wrong.
I've edited it for pedants.
classic post dodge
reminiscient of your earlier work.....did you mean to say "peanuts" though?
Still no explanation as to why O'Leary, the manager, who spent £120 Million won nothing.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 4:01 PM
Cause the explanation to that was that he was not good enough or the team was not good enough to win anything simple as that. I never said he was a great manager. It is possible to have a more complex view of a guy or a manager. Its not so straight forward as O Leary all good and Cascarino all bad. What is not true is that he did a terrible job with them.
Firstly he achieved a consistancy with Leeds that only Don Revie has beaten
Secondly he did not chose the fees for the players and a lot of that was down to Risdale. So the money allegation is bogus. He identified Rio Ferdinand as a player, they paid 18m and got 30 m for him. The lived beyon their means for a few years and Risdale was the man at fault of that. O Leary got them performing consistanly in the league and was doing a good job, not his fault that the whole thing was based on a lie that Leeds had the money in the first place.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 4:04 PM
Leeds not a natural top 6 English team??!?
your having a laugh - one of the biggest English cities
and until O Leary rode them rock solid their pedigree and standing in the game had few peers
I think you are having a laugh as this post has been shown to be one of the most ignorant posts to be posted on this thread.
I think you are having a laugh as this post has been shown to be one of the most ignorant posts to be posted on this thread.
If you don't understand the place Leeds have in the greater context of English Football than I give up. One of Englands top six footballing cities - and by extension clubs. Your failure to grasp even the slightest link between O Leary's tenure and their subsequent slide is further proof that the ignorance on this topic is displayed mostly by your good self.
I think you are having a laugh as this post has been shown to be one of the most ignorant posts to be posted on this thread.
no it hasn't. Leeds (and surroundings) is the 4th biggest metropolitan area in England and only 5 clubs have won more league titles. LOL if you don't get the ridden rock solid reference.
Cause the explanation to that was that he was not good enough or the team was not good enough to win anything simple as that. I never said he was a great manager. It is possible to have a more complex view of a guy or a manager. Its not so straight forward as O Leary all good and Cascarino all bad. What is not true is that he did a terrible job with them.
Firstly he achieved a consistancy with Leeds that only Don Revie has beaten
Secondly he did not chose the fees for the players and a lot of that was down to Risdale. So the money allegation is bogus. He identified Rio Ferdinand as a player, they paid 18m and got 30 m for him. The lived beyon their means for a few years and Risdale was the man at fault of that. O Leary got them performing consistanly in the league and was doing a good job, not his fault that the whole thing was based on a lie that Leeds had the money in the first place.
Do you really think £120 Million just to achieve consistancy is good value for money though?
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 4:18 PM
Do you really think £120 Million just to achieve consistancy is good value for money though?
I just managers on their achievements as money is not not always a good barometer as a lot of that was down to the poor negotians of Risdale. One classic example was the Seth Johnson case were Johnson was on 8,000 grand a week and Risdale offered a huge amount and then Johnson said he would sleep on it and Risdale rang the next day and doubled it again. This sort of poor managing of the finances was no O Learys fault, he did not judge the fee for the players. That wad down to Risdale.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 4:22 PM
no it hasn't. Leeds (and surroundings) is the 4th biggest metropolitan area in England and only 5 clubs have won more league titles. LOL if you don't get the ridden rock solid reference.
I never disputed the actually size of the city, my origigal point is that you can hardly say leeds belong in the top 6 considering they have only done that 12 times before O Leary and 10 of those were the Revie era that I mentioned. You are picking your own stats to back up your argument I used stats that did not back up my argument and ones that did to give a fuller truer picture. They have only finished in the top 6 of English football about 16 times in over a hundred years of League football. So how can anyone say they belong in the top 6 of English football is beyond me. If you take the Revie era out of it they are largely a club that spends its time yo yoing between the top tier and 2nd tier. If fact they have spent twice as much time in the 2nd tier as that they have in the top 6 of English football.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 4:26 PM
If you don't understand the place Leeds have in the greater context of English Football than I give up. One of Englands top six footballing cities - and by extension clubs. Your failure to grasp even the slightest link between O Leary's tenure and their subsequent slide is further proof that the ignorance on this topic is displayed mostly by your good self.
I have just proved to you that they have spent more time in the 2nd tier of English football that in the top 6, in fact twice as much time. So where do you get calling me igrnorant as the facts suggest they are not a top six club. They may be in a big city and a large hinterland but they do not belong in the top 6 by right. Also O Leary has got them in the top 6 more times than any other manager other than Revie they are all facts. I have also pointed out that O Leary did not decide the fees for the players that was decided by Risdale and the selling club. O Leary just identifed the players he wanted and coached the team.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 4:28 PM
If you don't understand the place Leeds have in the greater context of English Football than I give up. One of Englands top six footballing cities - and by extension clubs. Your failure to grasp even the slightest link between O Leary's tenure and their subsequent slide is further proof that the ignorance on this topic is displayed mostly by your good self.
Again please attack the post not the poster.
Leeds are a top English Club and City for football. anyone in English football will tell you that even their greatest rivals.
O Leary walked out on his country to go on holidays rather than play in the only senior tournament that Ireland have ever won.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 4:38 PM
[QUOTE=wws]Leeds are a top English Club and City for football. anyone in English football will tell you that even their greatest rivals.
O Leary walked out on his country to go on holidays rather than play in the only senior tournament that Ireland have ever won.[/QUO
I would rather use the facts of the situation like league records to back up my argument but each to their own I suppose.
[QUOTE=wws]Leeds are a top English Club and City for football. anyone in English football will tell you that even their greatest rivals.
O Leary walked out on his country to go on holidays rather than play in the only senior tournament that Ireland have ever won.[/QUO
I would rather use the facts of the situation like league records to back up my argument but each to their own I suppose.
So O leary didn't walk out on Ireland???!??!
geysir
03/08/2006, 4:44 PM
To be fair to O'Leary that's not his responsibility as a manager. That's his employers' responsibility. All managers look for money to spend - it's up to the Board to give the money or to say no. He would have been the first manager in history to say "No thanks. I don't want the money to spend"
That's a fair enough point, Ridsdale is held responsible for the financial mess, the £120m figure is anyway an exaggeration, more like £60m spending, net.
But imo it did get to the stage where there was neither rhyme nor reason to his signings. Into an already bloated unbalanced squad, he signs an off form Fowler and an average Johnson for ridiculuos money.
At the end O'Leary was just as bankrupt a manager as the club was financially.
Maybe O'Leary is an absolute self absorbed moron as in can't understand problems outside his own radar, even when the financial situation was explained repeatedly in graphic detail he throws a public fit over the proposed sale of Ferdinand and maybe Viduka for very good money.Then he gets the sack.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 4:45 PM
I never said he did not or did not, I dont know the private conversations between O Leary and Charlton and I dont have an opinion on that case.
In addition I prove to you with hards facts that Leeds are not naturally a top 6 club with historic records rather than potential i.e size of the city etc. So what happens you now move onto the Charlton O Leary feud something which I have no comment to make on and is not part of the discussion regarding O Leary as a manager of Leeds and Aston Villa.
I never said he did not or did not, I dont know the private conversations between O Leary and Charlton and I dont have an opinion on that case.
In addition I prove to you with hards facts that Leeds are not naturally a top 6 club with historic records rather than potential i.e size of the city etc. So what happens you now move onto the Charlton O Leary feud something which I have no comment to make on and is not part of the discussion regarding O Leary as a manager of Leeds and Aston Villa.
actually the only hard facts you quoted placed Leeds as one of the top sides - joint top with a few others (one mentioned, Huddersfield would not be on a par)
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 4:56 PM
No that is only if you take League titles as your only judge. Whereas on a consistant basis they have finished inside the top 6 of the top league about %15 of the time. Also they have spent 30% of their time outside the top division. Roughly 18% of their top 6 finishes have come due to David O leary. I
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 4:57 PM
actually the only hard facts you quoted placed Leeds as one of the top sides - joint top with a few others (one mentioned, Huddersfield would not be on a par)
Sorry Leeds are not joint top with anybody.
Liverpool are top on their own with 18 League titles
Man Utd are 2nd
Arsenal are 3rd.
No that is only if you take League titles as your only judge. Whereas on a consistant basis they have finished inside the top 6 of the top league about %15 of the time. Also they have spent 30% of their time outside the top division. Roughly 18% of their top 6 finishes have come due to David O leary. I
who probably had roughly 99% of their all time playing budget.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 5:04 PM
Where are you getting the figure off 99% from then.
Sorry - I'm getting confused ... why are we talking about percentages? And what does it have to do with O'Leary?
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 5:15 PM
Just showing that Leeds are not a club with a tradition of finishing in the top 6 on a consistant basis with the exceptions of the Revie Era and the O Leary reign.
geysir
03/08/2006, 5:20 PM
I never said he did not or did not, I dont know the private conversations between O Leary and Charlton and I dont have an opinion on that case.
Neil you should be better informed than that.
Both characters gave their account of the phonecalls, it's public knowledge, it's been well documented.
It's only a matter of opinion on how you analyse the affair.
Ok ... I'm with you now!
Just out of interest, you're saying that the money that is spent on a team should bear no relation to judging how good its manager is. Personally, I've always believed that you need to measure how 'good' a manager / team is by weighing up the number of trophies they win against the amount of money spent on that team. Based on that formula you can see why I think little of O'Leary as a manager because he spent a collossal amount (which was admittedly sanctioned by someone else but it meant he had some very talented players at his disposal) and yet he did not win anything.
Where do you stand on Mourinho? If he was the manager of a club like Wigan or Sunderland, do you think he would win any trophies with them?
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 5:24 PM
Sorry I can be informed in relation to what I choose to be informed about. I am not going to put myself on the line and comment on an issue that I do not have strong views upon and one which I would not be as informed about as maybe I should be to post an opinion on it. That is my choice, one does not have to hold an opinion on every aspect of Irish football.
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 5:28 PM
Ok ... I'm with you now!
Just out of interest, you're saying that the money that is spent on a team should bear no relation to judging how good its manager is. Personally, I've always believed that you need to measure how 'good' a manager / team is by weighing up the number of trophies they win against the amount of money spent on that team. Based on that formula you can see why I think little of O'Leary as a manager because he spent a collossal amount (which was admittedly sanctioned by someone else but it meant he had some very talented players at his disposal) and yet he did not win anything.
Where do you stand on Mourinho? If he was the manager of a club like Wigan or Sunderland, do you think he would win any trophies with them?
Well also which is better finishing 4 or winning the FA Cup. Also I never said it should bear no relation, check my posts I did not say that. Also I tried to explain in this case that the fees were not O Learys doing, he picked the players and the 2 chairman decided upon the fees and the wages. A lot of the high fees and wages were to do with Risdales inability to negotiate properly. O Leary is not blameless in the episode and he does have faults and he is not a great manager. But he is not a terrible manager either and he is not the main culprit of the reason leeds have gone down a division or ended up in the state they did.
Mourinhio won the European Cup with Porto hardly a rich club in European terms and he did well with lower league clubs in Portugal so I think that he is a manager who can get success at most levels of the game. I do not think Sunderland are in a position to be winning trophies at the moment with the exception of the League Championship.
I just managers on their achievements as money is not not always a good barometer ...
What did you mean by this then?
NeilMcD
03/08/2006, 5:37 PM
I meant what it says, it is not always a good baromter sometimes it is and sometimes it is not. There are other circumstances what you must look into rather than using a simplisic barometer of money versus cups on ever occassion.
It's simplistic to expect manager's to be held accountable based on the amount of money they have spent? :confused: :confused:
geysir
03/08/2006, 5:53 PM
http://foot.ie/attachment.php?attachmentid=559&stc=1&d=1154627509
geysir
03/08/2006, 7:58 PM
Sorry I can be informed in relation to what I choose to be informed about. I am not going to put myself on the line and comment on an issue that I do not have strong views upon and one which I would not be as informed about as maybe I should be to post an opinion on it. That is my choice, one does not have to hold an opinion on every aspect of Irish football.
If you choose to have whatever opinions on O'Leary that's fair enough. It lessens the credibility of those opinions if you choose not be informed as to have even a basic opinion on one of the most important events in O"Leary's connection with the Irish team and the then team manager. An event with unprecedented ramifications for a player of such standing, casting O"Leary into the shadows for years, a player of undoubted skill and ability cast out of the squad by the then highly regarded manager.
Some people have a view that Jack overreacted, that Jack treated him harshly, others have a view that Jack was setting the bar for standards of committment, others like me have the opinion that it was a bit of everything but Jack just didn't like something about O'Leary.
OwlsFan
04/08/2006, 8:41 AM
Just showing that Leeds are not a club with a tradition of finishing in the top 6 on a consistant basis with the exceptions of the Revie Era and the O Leary reign.
They're not even the biggest club in Yorkshire :p
NeilMcD
04/08/2006, 9:18 AM
If you choose to have whatever opinions on O'Leary that's fair enough. It lessens the credibility of those opinions if you choose not be informed as to have even a basic opinion on one of the most important events in O"Leary's connection with the Irish team and the then team manager. An event with unprecedented ramifications for a player of such standing, casting O"Leary into the shadows for years, a player of undoubted skill and ability cast out of the squad by the then highly regarded manager.
Some people have a view that Jack overreacted, that Jack treated him harshly, others have a view that Jack was setting the bar for standards of committment, others like me have the opinion that it was a bit of everything but Jack just didn't like something about O'Leary.
Sorry you are concentrating something that was introduced as a wild card by somebody who was losing a debate in relation to how big a club Leeds was. i was not going to be drawn in on a seperate debate. It is a classic move by people who are losilng a debate to change the subject . WWS clearly did this when he realised that his point about Leeds and their standing as a top 6 club did not stand up to factualy scrutiny he through in a side issue which was O Learys and Charltons disagreement over the Triangular tournament in 1986. I do know about this and I do know the issues but I was not going to be drawn into as I feel it has no bearing on how good a manager David O leary was at Leeds Utd. Also why would I post opinions about something and then have a fellow poster come in and show that in fact those opinions were based on points that were factually incorrect. I have not read extensively on the subject. I have read quotes here and there, I remember it at the time and having my Dad say Charlton was right and my brothe say O leary was right. I felt sorry for anybody who wanted to play for Ireland and was refused but I also realised that the manager must have rules etc. I think the issue was quite complex and I am not going to post strong opinions either way on it as I think there are 2 sides to the story and it really comes down to personal opinion on what you think of Charlton or O Leary in my view.
NY Hoop
04/08/2006, 10:48 AM
Neil spends all his waking hours thinking about this particular thread. Discuss:D
KOH
NeilMcD
04/08/2006, 10:57 AM
Again personal comments do not do the site or the poster or the thread any good in my view.
i was not going to be drawn in on a seperate debate. It is a classic move by people who are losilng a debate to change the subject . WWS clearly did this when he realised that his point about Leeds and their standing as a top 6 club did not stand up to factualy scrutiny
its stands up totally to scrutiny. Glad to see you've "won" the debate. Any other awards you'd like to confer on yourself? - O'Leary is actually the main thrust of this thread (his utter destruction of the once great Leeds being the central point of contention here). No incident informs us of his character more than the iceland one. Thats the type of person he was and is - and thats why Cas has a point.
And yes Leeds are one of the top 6 great football clubs of england - and the reasons why go deeper than what you can google or check on wikipedia
NeilMcD
04/08/2006, 11:07 AM
Prove how they are one of the top 6 clubs then.
NeilMcD
04/08/2006, 11:12 AM
its stands up totally to scrutiny. Glad to see you've "won" the debate. Any other awards you'd like to confer on yourself? - O'Leary is actually the main thrust of this thread (his utter destruction of the once great Leeds being the central point of contention here). No incident informs us of his character more than the iceland one. Thats the type of person he was and is - and thats why Cas has a point.
And yes Leeds are one of the top 6 great football clubs of england - and the reasons why go deeper than what you can google or check on wikipedia
Does that incident not also tell us about Charlton and a lot of people were of the view that Charlton was bang out of order for what he did to David O Leary. There are many sides to any story and it is a rather simplistic idea to suggest that it is black and white that O Leary was totally wrong and Charlton was totally right in this regard.
player refuses to play when asked for his country
how many sides are there?
thats it from the point of view of O'Leary and what he's like.
the length of the punishment is the only issue than from charltons side. but the actions that prompted it are all O leary. and like cascarino, villa fans, leeds fans and me - we just dont like him
Leeds are a massive club for many reasons but the prime one relates to their heyday - they played their greatest stuff during the dawn of tv era - which means many of their players hold a greater place in the popular conciousness. Why do you think there are so many people of a certain vintage who follow Leeds in Ireland? The impact of that time was arguably greater than at previous ones because football was reaching a wider televised audience for the first time
hoops1
04/08/2006, 11:32 AM
WWS
on another totally unrelated topic great result for Crumlin yesterday
(sorry continue)
geysir
04/08/2006, 12:49 PM
Sorry you are concentrating something that was introduced as a wild card by somebod..... a side issue which was O Learys and Charltons disagreement over the Triangular tournament in 1986. I do know about this and I do know the issues but I was not going to be drawn into as I feel it has no bearing on how good a manager David O leary was at Leeds Utd. I think the issue was quite complex and I am not going to post strong opinions either way on it as I think there are 2 sides to the story and it really comes down to personal opinion on what you think of Charlton or O Leary in my view.
And personal opinions are based on ????
One bit that grated you was Cas's honesty/bad journalism in personalising his attack on O'Leary. You clearly referred to O'Leary the player as being superior and Cas some sort of criminal low life.
Isn't it ironic that IF Cas was as you interpret, a lowlife, who hung around with lowlifes, admits that the least sincere person he has ever met is O'Leary :)
You don't have sufficient information in your data bank to make any kind of informed judgement on O'Leary as a player for Ireland.
Many people opinions about O'Leary have been shaped since his reaction to being dropped by Hand or later. The Iceland affair is just another important affair along the way. I see that you are way too young to even have a memory of O'Leary as a player in the mid 80's for Ireland.
His playing career and managerial life to this day have all followed a certain pattern, denial /never taking responsibility,/ blame, demonstrative obsession about his image.
What's the term ? a persistant repeat offender.
Personal opinion is based on (amongst others) acute observation.
Playing for Ireland the "low lifer" Cas gave 100% of his abilities all the time, whether he was on the bench, returning after being dropped or called back. a crock, at the age of 37 from his cosy French Villa when we had nobody else.
At present he competes under the halo of the Irish flag at poker tournaments. 'Tis a saintly image.
NeilMcD
04/08/2006, 1:27 PM
And personal opinions are based on ????
One bit that grated you was Cas's honesty/bad journalism in personalising his attack on O'Leary. You clearly referred to O'Leary the player as being superior and Cas some sort of criminal low life.
Isn't it ironic that IF Cas was as you interpret, a lowlife, who hung around with lowlifes, admits that the least sincere person he has ever met is O'Leary :)
You don't have sufficient information in your data bank to make any kind of informed judgement on O'Leary as a player for Ireland.
Many people opinions about O'Leary have been shaped since his reaction to being dropped by Hand or later. The Iceland affair is just another important affair along the way. I see that you are way too young to even have a memory of O'Leary as a player in the mid 80's for Ireland.
His playing career and managerial life to this day have all followed a certain pattern, denial /never taking responsibility,/ blame, demonstrative obsession about his image.
What's the term ? a persistant repeat offender.
Personal opinion is based on (amongst others) acute observation.
Playing for Ireland the "low lifer" Cas gave 100% of his abilities all the time, whether he was on the bench, returning after being dropped or called back. a crock, at the age of 37 from his cosy French Villa when we had nobody else.
At present he competes under the halo of the Irish flag at poker tournaments. 'Tis a saintly image.
Would you rather I made a comment on an Issue that I openly admit that I am ignorant of all the facts as I do not know what was said between Charlton and O Leary in their phone calls. What was said to the Liverpool players. Wht was said to Kenny Daglish. The story is quite complex that is why there are those who were outraged at the time by Charltons behaviour and there were others who were outraged by O Learys behaviour. Both have valid views in my opinion. However in relation to my knowledge of the respective footballing of either player, I have been attending Ireland matches since 1986 as I was at Charltons first game in charge and I have not missed many since then. I have watched both O Leary as a playerfor Ireland and Arsenal and Cascarino as a player for Ireland, Villa, Celtic, Millwall and some of his games in France and I would say that O Leary was a much better footballer in the ball playing sense and he played at the back whereas Cascarino played as a forward. In addition O Leary was a better professional in that he had a better diet and did not abuse his body in the same way that Cascarino did. That is why O Leary achieved more in the game that Cascarino did. Finally how do you know what information I do or do not have of a players ability.
Also all the bits that I have spoke about Cascarino and his behaviour off the pitch are from his book. The reason I pointed this out because it was Cascarino who was having a go at O Learys character. I was saying that is fine, have a go but, now lets examine Cascarion's character and it is fair to say that he ie not whiter than white and he does have some cheek to having a personal attack at O Leary when his personality does not stand up to scrutiny. All of this would not be relevant and I would not have said it only, Cascarino for some reason has a bee in his bonnet about O Leary ( maybe its cause he cant get over the fact O leary had more football talent then he did). Cascarino is the one who has repeatedly written personal attacks against O Leary whenever he gets the chance to. I understand the point ou are making that if Cascarino is dealing in a dodgy world and he finds O Leary the least sincere person he has ever met, it says a lot about O Leary. However my point agains that would be why trust Cascarinos view of O Leary.
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