NI Passports

[dcfcsteve]

The results read to me as two to one in favour of reunification.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2005/Political_Attitudes/NIRELAND.html

Apologies - that was 50-50 split between unification and other options. As the press release clarified, it was in actual fact slightly less than 50% in favour of unification. And if we're being honest, Independence is not an option that would traditionally be considered a 'Nationalist'soption (I've yet to meet a nationalist who would support it, but have met 'unionists' who do), whilst even if 'other' did mean joint-administration, that still wouldn't be an outright rejection of the connection to Britain/UK.

Bottom line is that if we can't even get a majority of Catholics to want a united Ireland, then there's a very long road to travel people.....

Anyhoo - how does all this prevent unionists from describing themslves as Irish ??

[geysir]

I suppose half Irish is out of the question.

The closest question in the survey to the thread topic is this one
"Which of these best describes the way you think of yourself?"
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2005/Community_Relations/NINATID.html
Only 5% of Protestants consider themselves Irish.

But of course no question about duality

[dcfcsteve]

You're digging yourself into a hole here. The person who brought the survey into the discussion was you. It's not up to others to defend its relevance.

What hole ? The survey stated that less than half the Catholics in NI want a United Ireland. I raiised it in the context of wondering why they don't have their 'right' to describe/consider themselves as Irish questioned by people like Lopez, just like unionists do. Where's the hole there ?


As I have already mentioned, I personally agree that unionists have every right to descrbe themselves as Irish, if they wish.

But you're not the person who raised the topic out of the blue and has been claiming that they don't have that right.

[lopez]

Really ? So why all the gurning on here about Unionists having to check to describe themselves as both Irish and British ? If you don't care, why bring it up ?
I'm wondering about the inconsistency of Unionists to eschew descriptions of Irishness (it's now called Ulster Unionism not Irish Unionism) with the tendency of some to claim Irishness when discussing sectarian matters on the football forums I've seen (ie. the subject of KAI not meaning 'Kill All Irish' because 'we're Irish ourselves').

The Republic of Ireland is the state, not 'Ireland'. There is an obvious difference. Also - I'm surprised to hear you desribe the ROI as a nation state - given that, as you recognise, a large chunk of the nation (geographically and population-wise) lies outside of the ROI.
I don't think my interpretation of Ireland is inconsistent with the two former leaders of the SDLP and the one before them prior to his conversion on the road to the House of Lords (not sure of Durkin's view on the subject as NI doesn't get the same press these days). That view is essentially: Ireland was artificially divided, it never should have been, it was undemocratic to do so, and the desire to re-unite the country is a legitimate aspiration (that both Hume and Mallon aspired to) providing it is done without recourse to shoving a gun in people's faces. As the for the reublic tag, that's used solely as a way of trying to rubbish the aspiration of a united Ireland. France is officially called the Republic of France but no one ever refers to it as the Republic or the French Republic or 'la France'. Also you're getting mixed up with nationalities living in other nation-states. I believe that Northern nationalists are not living in another country and so that's why I'd claim Ireland as a nation-state. Kilburn in the seventies could be counted as part of the Nation, or the Liverpool constituency that voted for the IPP candidate TP O'Connor before partition, but I don't support either's annexation into an Irish state.

Sorry lopez - but I haven't got a clue what you're on about here. What question were you intiially supposedly asking - none of the above is a question ?? What have ardent Republicans got to do withe the rights or actions of Unionists in describing themselves as both British and Irish ?? :confused: See above re. KAI.

Apologies for needing to sleep between the hours of 2 am and 9am, and needing to work in the hours that followed. Note to self - must stock-up on some more of those Superman pills.....
I think you need to stock up on some glasses. If someone said I was talking b*llocks I'd have quickly put up the survey in my original post.

I'm not sure if you posted the wrong link by accident, but the above survey actually says the complete opposite to what you're suggesting ! Only 22% of total NI population wanted to reunify with the rest of Ireland, versus 59% looking to remain in the UK. The most recent results (the 2005 survey - conducted between Oct 2005 and Jan 2006, and results just released) showed a similar split : 23% for reunification, 58% for remaining in UK.
I was talking about Catholics which was the subject you insisted on bringing in. I did make a mistake with the Protestant figure as I was still thinking of the 6% of an earlier poll I'd seen earlier from the seventies. Apologies for that

The 2005 results are listed with Catholics split 50-50 between remaining in UK and unification - but their press releases made clear that the figure for untiy is actually less than 50%, as it was rounded up. These results have been pretty much consistent since the annual survey began in 1998. The survey is considered to have a low margin of error, given its relatively large sample size. Who's serving up the cojones now.....?
You are...still! The poll was 50% for unification, 25% for remaining within the UK.

...But you're not the person who raised the topic out of the blue and has been claiming that they don't have that right.What part of 'Far be it for me to tell anyone what exactly their nationality is this week...' and 'As I said, I couldn't care less what people thought they were from week to week...' do you equate with claiming that I believe people have no choice in their own identity. One thing I've found about forums is that assuming people's views when they haven't put them down makes you look extremely foolish. You've made a pr*t of yourself with your insistence I equate nationalists with Catholicsm and then that 50% of Catholics are 'happy' with the status quo where your quoted opinion poll states only 25%. I'd take a deep breath before you make yourself looking even more ridiculous.

[Not Brazil]

I'm wondering about the inconsistency of Unionists to eschew descriptions of Irishness (it's now called Ulster Unionism not Irish Unionism) with the tendency of some to claim Irishness when discussing sectarian matters on the football forums I've seen (ie. the subject of KAI not meaning 'Kill All Irish' because 'we're Irish ourselves').


No inconsistencies on my part.

I'm Irish & British...whether it's on a football forum, at work, at home with my family, abroad etc.

That's what I am. It's not open for discussion.

Those who subscribe to a notion of "KAI" are offensive to me, as an Irishman.

If scratched, I think their beef is with Irish Republicanism (particularly militant republicanism), and not all Irish per se.

I do not really understand those born on the island of Ireland who denounce their Irishness - I suspect they simply associate "Irishness" nowadays with Republicanism.

It's sad that they have allowed republicans to rob them of part of their identity.

[David]

I know Sean well - was in his year at school, and he's a fellow member of the London Derry City Supporters Club (even though he's Oxford based). It's interesting that he's my age a we both experienced tha same mid-1980's Northernb Ireland, republic of Ireland and Derry City FC exposure, yet we decided to follow different international teams. He's very firmly in the minority amongst Derry fans in this - though there would be support for the NI U21's as City have been supplying players to the team for a while now.

Hard to know how many people from the protestant communit turn up to Derry games, but there certainly are some. Not as many as in the IL days - though that will have as much to do with pre-versus-post 1969 Northern Ireland than anythign to do with our club. We probably had more protestant supportesr in our eearly days back in the LOI (ironically, given the politics of the time) - though we also had more of every type of support as well back then. We do have the odd high-profile protestant supporter like 'Linfield Jambo' and others, and the experiences of away fans in the Setanta Cup has shown a lot more that Derry fans are nothing like what people had assumed.

It is commented from time to time on the Derry City forum that it would be good to see more support from the protestant community. The club really is a neutral space on match days - no tricolours (apart maybe from Euro games), no sectarian singning. Even wearing a Celtic top in the Brandywell is likely to lead to snide comments. These are all voluntary measures the fans have taken subconsciously - the club has never had to drive any line on this. Likewise, I would be surprised if there was ever Irish language mottos, signage or anything like that ever introduced into the club - again because it just doesn't suit the ethos of our history and our fan's approach to football.

Hopefully as the trenches get levelled in Norn Irish society we can see more protestants seeing no big deal about watching City play. An all-Island league would doubless help in this - but that's a whole different story..... :) :ball:


I think most Linfield supporters would have a pretty high opinion of Derry City supporters and certainly nobody would blame them for our problems when we have visited there. Your support at Windsor Park was absolutely superb. The one problem I have with some Derry supporters is their apparent hatred for all things Irish League and their branding of those that do not agree with them as a bigot. For example I referred to your city as Londonderry on the Derry City and took an absolute hammering. Please note I did not and would not refer to your club using this name but I have always and will always refer to the city as Londonderry but have no problem whatsoever in others referring to it as Derry, that is their right. Another thing that I took a hammering over was saying that we had to go into another country to get home. The fact is, although I accept totally that some do not like the fact, that Donegal is in a different country to Londonderry but for saying this I got branded a bigot. On the Derry City forum I even got branded as a terrorist on the basis of who I was sat with at the game in the Brandywell. As I said a fantastic support but from quite a few there is an intolerance of others beliefs and it certainly does not strike me as a welcoming environment for Protestants.

[dcfcsteve]

I think most Linfield supporters would have a pretty high opinion of Derry City supporters and certainly nobody would blame them for our problems when we have visited there. Your support at Windsor Park was absolutely superb. The one problem I have with some Derry supporters is their apparent hatred for all things Irish League and their branding of those that do not agree with them as a bigot. For example I referred to your city as Londonderry on the Derry City and took an absolute hammering. Please note I did not and would not refer to your club using this name but I have always and will always refer to the city as Londonderry but have no problem whatsoever in others referring to it as Derry, that is their right. Another thing that I took a hammering over was saying that we had to go into another country to get home. The fact is, although I accept totally that some do not like the fact, that Donegal is in a different country to Londonderry but for saying this I got branded a bigot. On the Derry City forum I even got branded as a terrorist on the basis of who I was sat with at the game in the Brandywell. As I said a fantastic support but from quite a few there is an intolerance of others beliefs and it certainly does not strike me as a welcoming environment for Protestants.

David - I don't believe you're either naive or stupid enough to be surprised by the reaction your comments gained on the City website. Intentionally or otherwise, your comments were understandably viewed as provocative.

You know full well that the name of our city is contentious. Referring to it as 'Londonderry' on the Derry City website was simply unnecessary, and form a Linfield fan will always be considered provocative. If most of the Protestant population of Northern Ireland can have no probelm referring to it as Derry - including organisations such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, City of Derry Rugby Club and City of Derry Cricket Club - then I fail to see why it has to be such a burning issue for A Belfats man like you. Particularly on the Derry City website, where the reaction you received was entirely predictable. If it pains you that much to use the word 'Derry', you could've referred to 'the city' or 'the town' instead. For the record p- whilst I fully respect the right of someone from or living in the City or County of Derry/Londonderry to use either name to describe the location, I will not have anyone from outside the city tell me what my home town or county should be called. It's simply none of their business. Other Derry fans would be of a similar mindset. hence why there was no problems amongst Derry fans when referring to the exchange event Brandywell Pride ran with 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club. It's their city - they have the right to call it what they like. Outsiders looking to use the name of our city to make/score petty points are not so easily tolerated.

Your insistence on referring to a short deter through Donegal as 'going through a different country' was factually correct with regards political borders, but incorrect given that the island of Ireland is considered a 'country' for most non-political purposes (e.g. rugby, athletics, boxing). Regardless - it was completely unnecessary for you to use such langauge, and added nothing to the point you were making. Your insitence on referring to Donegal in such a way can therefore only be interpreted as deliberately bloody-minded/provocative.

With regards abuse for who you sat with at the game, that was unfortunate given the reality of post-troubles NI. But the man is a convisted loyalist terrorist, and given the WUMming you'd done through your choice of language in previous posts it wasn't a surprising retort, even if it was rather unfair.

In summary, I'm amazed that 5 months later you are still exhibiting surprise or 'hurt' at an entirely predictable response you received when using provocative language in a thoroughly unnecessary way - one that not only didn't add anything to your points, but actually detracted strongly from them. Whether or not you sought to be deliberately provocative is not important - especially as I don't for one minute believe you're so naive as to not have known in advance the impact of the language you chose. To then try and extrapulate conclusions from that with regards how welcomihng our club is towarsd members of the protestant community is quite frankly laughable. Tell that to high profile protestant Linfield and Derry City supporting individuals like 'Linfield Jambo' and 'The Shankhill Candystripe'/ALinfield.

[dcfcsteve]

I think most Linfield supporters would have a pretty high opinion of Derry City supporters and certainly nobody would blame them for our problems when we have visited there. Your support at Windsor Park was absolutely superb. The one problem I have with some Derry supporters is their apparent hatred for all things Irish League and their branding of those that do not agree with them as a bigot. For example I referred to your city as Londonderry on the Derry City and took an absolute hammering. Please note I did not and would not refer to your club using this name but I have always and will always refer to the city as Londonderry but have no problem whatsoever in others referring to it as Derry, that is their right. Another thing that I took a hammering over was saying that we had to go into another country to get home. The fact is, although I accept totally that some do not like the fact, that Donegal is in a different country to Londonderry but for saying this I got branded a bigot. On the Derry City forum I even got branded as a terrorist on the basis of who I was sat with at the game in the Brandywell. As I said a fantastic support but from quite a few there is an intolerance of others beliefs and it certainly does not strike me as a welcoming environment for Protestants.

David - I don't believe you're either naive or stupid enough to be surprised by the reaction your comments gained on the City website. Intentionally or otherwise, your comments were understandably viewed as provocative.

You know full well that the name of our city is contentious. Referring to it as 'Londonderry' on the Derry City website was simply unnecessary, and form a Linfield fan will always be considered provocative. If most of the Protestant population of Northern Ireland can have no probelm referring to it as Derry - including organisations such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, City of Derry Rugby Club and City of Derry Cricket Club - then I fail to see why it has to be such a burning issue for A Belfats man like you. Particularly on the Derry City website, where the reaction you received was entirely predictable. If it pains you that much to use the word 'Derry', you could've referred to 'the city' or 'the town' instead. For the record p- whilst I fully respect the right of someone from or living in the City or County of Derry/Londonderry to use either name to describe the location, I will not have anyone from outside the city tell me what my home town or county should be called. It's simply none of their business. Other Derry fans would be of a similar mindset. hence why there was no problems amongst Derry fans when referring to the exchange event Brandywell Pride ran with 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club. It's their city - they have the right to call it what they like. Outsiders looking to use the name of our city to make/score petty points are not so easily tolerated.

Your insistence on referring to a short deter through Donegal as 'going through a different country' was factually correct with regards political borders, but incorrect given that the island of Ireland is considered a 'country' for most non-political purposes (e.g. rugby, athletics, boxing). Regardless - it was completely unnecessary for you to use such langauge, and added nothing to the point you were making. Your insitence on referring to Donegal in such a way can therefore only be interpreted as deliberately bloody-minded/provocative.

With regards abuse for who you sat with at the game, that was unfortunate given the reality of post-troubles NI. But the man is a convisted loyalist terrorist, and given the WUMming you'd done through your choice of language in previous posts it wasn't a surprising retort, even if it was rather unfair.

In summary, I'm amazed that 5 months later you are still exhibiting surprise or 'hurt' at an entirely predictable response you received when using provocative language in a thoroughly unnecessary way - one that not only didn't add anything to your points, but actually detracted strongly from them. Whether or not you sought to be deliberately provocative is not important - especially as I don't for one minute believe you're so naive as to not have known in advance the impact of the language you chose. To then try and extrapulate conclusions from that with regards how welcomihng our club is towards members of the protestant community is quite frankly laughable. Tell that to high profile protestant Linfield and Derry City supporting individuals like 'Linfield Jambo' and 'The Shankhill Candystripe'/ALinfield.

[David]

David - I don't believe you're either naive or stupid enough to be surprised by the reaction your comments gained on the City website. Intentionally or otherwise, your comments were understandably viewed as provocative.

You know full well that the name of our city is contentious. Referring to it as 'Londonderry' on the Derry City website was simply unnecessary, and form a Linfield fan will always be considered provocative. If most of the Protestant population of Northern Ireland can have no probelm referring to it as Derry - including organisations such as the Apprentice Boys of Derry, City of Derry Rugby Club and City of Derry Cricket Club - then I fail to see why it has to be such a burning issue for A Belfats man like you. Particularly on the Derry City website, where the reaction you received was entirely predictable. If it pains you that much to use the word 'Derry', you could've referred to 'the city' or 'the town' instead. For the record p- whilst I fully respect the right of someone from or living in the City or County of Derry/Londonderry to use either name to describe the location, I will not have anyone from outside the city tell me what my home town or county should be called. It's simply none of their business. Other Derry fans would be of a similar mindset. hence why there was no problems amongst Derry fans when referring to the exchange event Brandywell Pride ran with 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club. It's their city - they have the right to call it what they like. Outsiders looking to use the name of our city to make/score petty points are not so easily tolerated.

Your insistence on referring to a short deter through Donegal as 'going through a different country' was factually correct with regards political borders, but incorrect given that the island of Ireland is considered a 'country' for most non-political purposes (e.g. rugby, athletics, boxing). Regardless - it was completely unnecessary for you to use such langauge, and added nothing to the point you were making. Your insitence on referring to Donegal in such a way can therefore only be interpreted as deliberately bloody-minded/provocative.

With regards abuse for who you sat with at the game, that was unfortunate given the reality of post-troubles NI. But the man is a convisted loyalist terrorist, and given the WUMming you'd done through your choice of language in previous posts it wasn't a surprising retort, even if it was rather unfair.

In summary, I'm amazed that 5 months later you are still exhibiting surprise or 'hurt' at an entirely predictable response you received when using provocative language in a thoroughly unnecessary way - one that not only didn't add anything to your points, but actually detracted strongly from them. Whether or not you sought to be deliberately provocative is not important - especially as I don't for one minute believe you're so naive as to not have known in advance the impact of the language you chose. To then try and extrapulate conclusions from that with regards how welcomihng our club is towards members of the protestant community is quite frankly laughable. Tell that to high profile protestant Linfield and Derry City supporting individuals like 'Linfield Jambo' and 'The Shankhill Candystripe'/ALinfield.

I feel you have simply proved my point here. At no point am I disputing anyones right with regards to what they call their city but I have been brought up to refer to it as Londonderry and will continue to do so. As I said in my previous post you and others can call it what you like. Why should I sidestep the issue by referring to it as "your city" or something like that. Why can you simply not accept my views in the same way that I am willing to accept yours? This is the intolerance I refer to.

The thing about another country was also not meant as a petty dig in any way. I was stating fact to show how ludicrous the whole situation was. As for a "short detour", it took us almost two hours to get back to cars and buses that were 5 minutes away from the ground, hardly a short detour.

As for the person seated beside me, yes he was a convicted loyalist paramilitary but unlike many others in this country he has served his sentence and has done a lot of excellent cross community work. The guy is a genuine football supporter and was there in that capacity and no other. He is in the same supporters' club as me which is how I have come to know him. I would be interested to see if you would brand someone sitting beside the MP for Mid Ulster in the same way as I understand he frequents your games yet Derry City supporters have seemingly no problem with that. A touch of hypocrisy?

To summarise in no way was I being provocative, if Derry City supporters cannot accept others beliefs then I would suggest it is they who have the problem and not me.

[dcfcsteve]

I feel you have simply proved my point here. At no point am I disputing anyones right with regards to what they call their city but I have been brought up to refer to it as Londonderry and will continue to do so.
To summarise in no way was I being provocative, if Derry City supporters cannot accept others beliefs then I would suggest it is they who have the problem and not me.


It's our city - not yours. Put simply, it's name has got feck all to do with you. We're the ones who have to live with it - not you.

This isn't intolerance - as no-one has a problem with the name of groups like 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club (interestingly - the penant they gave the Brandywell Pride Supporters Club is displayed on the wall of the DCFC Boardroom. Strange for a club you suggest is so unwelcoming to protestants or to those who want to use the name 'Londonderry'. ). Why - because it's their city also, and they therefore have the right to call it whatever the hell they like.

If you were so tolerant yourself you would respect the right of people who are from or live in a place to have a bit more of a right over it's name than a random outsider like you.

And for the record, the name of the city was democratically changed to Derry in 1984 anyway. Worry less about our home - whether we chose to call it Derry/Londoderry/Stroke City/Doire/The Town I love so Well/whatever, and a bit more about your own please.

[David]

It's our city - not yours. Put simply, it's name has got feck all to do with you. We're the ones who have to live with it - not you.

This isn't intolerance - as no-one has a problem with the name of groups like 1st Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club (interestingly - the penant they gave the Brandywell Pride Supporters Club is displayed on the wall of the DCFC Boardroom. Strange for a club you suggest is so unwelcoming to protestants or to those who want to use the name 'Londonderry'. ). Why - because it's their city also, and they therefore have the right to call it whatever the hell they like.

If you were so tolerant yourself you would respect the right of people who are from or live in a place to have a bit more of a right over it's name than a random outsider like you.

And for the record, the name of the city was democratically changed to Derry in 1984 anyway. Worry less about our home - whether we chose to call it Derry/Londoderry/Stroke City/Doire/The Town I love so Well/whatever, and a bit more about your own please.

Prior to 1984 what did you call the city? Whether I live there or not is immaterial, I am still entitled to refer to the city as I always have and always will. That is not me trying be offensive, it is simply the way it is. I am not trying to enforce my beliefs on you so why should you try to force yours on me? Whether I am from the city or not I am still at times going to have to refer to it, should I change what I have always called it just for you? That is intolerance. I fully accept your beliefs and respect them, please reciprocate that.

[dcfcsteve]

Prior to 1984 what did you call the city? Whether I live there or not is immaterial, I am still entitled to refer to the city as I always have and always will. That is not me trying be offensive, it is simply the way it is. I am not trying to enforce my beliefs on you so why should you try to force yours on me? Whether I am from the city or not I am still at times going to have to refer to it, should I change what I have always called it just for you? That is intolerance. I fully accept your beliefs and respect them, please reciprocate that.

Would you respect the beliefs of some idiot 3rd-generation 'Oirish' man in a pub in Brooklyn to refer to Northern Ireland, the Northern Irish situation and the protestant community in whatever way he liked ? I suspect not - regardless of what you may respond. And primarily because it's got feck all to do with him.

Like I said - it's our city, not yours, so I won't have anyone tell me what my City should and shouldn't be called. Is that religious or cultural intolerance ? Certainly not. Is it intolerance of the views of those living outside my city who really don't give a feck about the place and therefore have no right to tell me or others from there what it should be called ? Hell yes....

And I was 11 years old when the name of the city was changed in 1984, and would have used a mixture of terms to describe the city before then - depending on the context. For example, my grandfather always wrote 'Londonderry', but called it 'Derry'. Just like many protestants in the city did and indeed still do. What's your point here ? Is the democratically-decided name of 'Derry' now null and void because some people didn't use the previous 'official' title.....? :confused:

[David]

Would you respect the beliefs of some idiot 3rd-generation 'Oirish' man in a pub in Brooklyn to refer to Northern Ireland, the Northern Irish situation and the protestant community in whatever way he liked ? I suspect not - regardless of what you may respond. And primarily because it's got feck all to do with him.

Like I said - it's our city, not yours, so I won't have anyone tell me what my City should and shouldn't be called. Is that religious or cultural intolerance ? Certainly not. Is it intolerance of the views of those living outside my city who really don't give a feck about the place and therefore have no right to tell me or others from there what it should be called ? Hell yes....

And I was 11 years old when the name of the city was changed in 1984, and would have used a mixture of terms to describe the city before then - depending on the context. For example, my grandfather always wrote 'Londonderry', but called it 'Derry'. Just like many protestants in the city did and indeed still do. What's your point here ? Is the democratically-decided name of 'Derry' now null and void because some people didn't use the previous 'official' title.....? :confused:

Nowhere am I telling you what your city should or should not be called, I am simply telling you what I call it and people should accept my right to call it that. To give an example, a few seasons ago I wrote an article for the Institute programme when Linfield were visiting and I mentioned Linfield visiting Londonderry in the article. I was approached my a board member of Institute at the game and thanked for using the name Londonderry. You call it Derry, I accept totally your right to do so but please do me the courtesy of accepting my right to call it what I have always called it and the fact that I am not native to the city is completely immaterial. Are we now only allowed to refer to the city that we live in? Your failure to accept my right to use the term Londonderry is indicative of the intolerance shown by some Derry City supporters.

[dcfcsteve]

Nowhere am I telling you what your city should or should not be called, I am simply telling you what I call it and people should accept my right to call it that. To give an example, a few seasons ago I wrote an article for the Institute programme when Linfield were visiting and I mentioned Linfield visiting Londonderry in the article. I was approached my a board member of Institute at the game and thanked for using the name Londonderry. You call it Derry, I accept totally your right to do so but please do me the courtesy of accepting my right to call it what I have always called it and the fact that I am not native to the city is completely immaterial. Are we now only allowed to refer to the city that we live in? Your failure to accept my right to use the term Londonderry is indicative of the intolerance shown by some Derry City supporters.

I think you'll find the fact that some of those people are Derry City Supporters is immaterial to the point. If some Linfield fans have criminal records - as do many in society - would it then be fair of me to talk about the criminal record of some Linfield fans ?

It's all just a conspiracy against you anyway David....... :)

[David]

I think you'll find the fact that some of those people are Derry City Supporters is immaterial to the point. If some Linfield fans have criminal records - as do many in society - would it then be fair of me to talk about the criminal record of some Linfield fans ?

It's all just a conspiracy against you anyway David....... :)

When you take into consideration that it was a Derry City website where this intolerance was displayed by Derry City supporters then surely it is reasonable enough to level the intolerance accusation against some Derry City supporters? Not quite sure who has mentioned any conspiracy by the way.

[dcfcsteve]

When you take into consideration that it was a Derry City website where this intolerance was displayed by Derry City supporters then surely it is reasonable enough to level the intolerance accusation against some Derry City supporters? Not quite sure who has mentioned any conspiracy by the way.

And likewsie we could level a claim of intolerance against you for coming into a site full of Derry fans and using language you knew would/could be considered provocative - regardless of whether or not you use it regularly. Surely rigidly sticking to use of your language when in the company of a much larger group who you know would find such language provocative is intolerant ? If you regularly used the word 'bender' or 'fag' to describe gay people, that wouldn't make it ok to go onto Gaydar and do so. Remember - the city has been officially called Derry for over 20 years.

So we'll all be happy in our intolerance together then, eh David....?

[David]

And likewsie we could level a claim of intolerance against you for coming into a site full of Derry fans and using language you knew would/could be considered provocative - regardless of whether or not you use it regularly. Surely rigidly sticking to use of your language when in the company of a much larger group who you know would find such language provocative is intolerant ? If you regularly used the word 'bender' or 'fag' to describe gay people, that wouldn't make it ok to go onto Gaydar and do so. Remember - the city has been officially called Derry for over 20 years.

So we'll all be happy in our intolerance together then, eh David....?

What absolute nonsense. Why should I change how I normally refer to a city just because of the company that I am in? Why not just accept that a substantial number of people in this country refer to the second city as Londonderry? As for the official name changing, were those that referred to it as Derry prior to the name change being intolerant?

You have also conveniently ignored all the other allegations on the Derry City site which shows even more intolerance but sure, anyone that from Northern Ireland that disagrees with a Derry City supporter is a bigot. :rolleyes:

[lopez]

With the risk of getting cyber stomped, as a 2nd generation half breed I know all this is NI stuff has f*ck all to do with me :rolleyes: but I think that there are worst things that one can do than misquote a place's name. I personally wouldn't call Steve's hometown ******derry but I can understand why David (still) does. In that other part of the world that I'm supposed to take no interest in, they've changed countless names. One at least because Fat Frank decided to wax his ego by changing the title (of his birthplace no less) to honour his gentle regime, to which the locals, once they were able to offer an opinion on the matter without risk of incarceration, wanted it removed. Others purely on linguistic lines. However, I'm personally not going to change calling cities by new names just because of the political climate. Bit more 'parity of esteem' please! Lecture over. ;)

[David]

With the risk of getting cyber stomped, as a 2nd generation half breed I know all this is NI stuff has f*ck all to do with me :rolleyes: but I think that there are worst things that one can do than misquote a place's name. I personally wouldn't call Steve's hometown ******derry but I can understand why David (still) does. In that other part of the world that I'm supposed to take no interest in, they've changed countless names. One at least because Fat Frank decided to wax his ego by changing the title (of his birthplace no less) to honour his gentle regime, to which the locals, once they were able to offer an opinion on the matter without risk of incarceration, wanted it removed. Others purely on linguistic lines. However, I'm personally not going to change calling cities by new names just because of the political climate. Bit more 'parity of esteem' please! Lecture over. ;)

I can totally live with that. When I originally used the name Londonderry it was not intended to cause offence and no real thought went into it, it is simply what I refer to that city as and if someone came onto a Linfield forum (or any other forum) and called it Derry I would have no problem with that whatsoever.

[Paddy Ramone]

Likewise, I would be surprised if there was ever Irish language mottos, signage or anything like that ever introduced into the club - again because it just doesn't suit the ethos of our history and our fan's approach to football

It's a pity that many Unionists or Protestants should find the Irish language offensive. They should know that many Scottish names are of Gaelic origin like Ian, Malcolm and Donald. Galloway a place where many of the Scottish settlers came from was a Gaelic speaking area until 1750.

[David]

It's a pity that many Unionists or Protestants should find the Irish language offensive. They should know that many Scottish names are of Gaelic origin like Ian, Malcolm and Donald. Galloway a place where many of the Scottish settlers came from was a Gaelic speaking area until 1750.
Not quite sure what this has to do with the thread. Personally I do not find the Irish language offensive. If people want to learn it, that is up to them. Personally I don't see much point as the reason I would want to learn another language is so that I can converse with someone who I cannot already converse with and with a few exceptions that is not the case with Irish as the vast majority of Irish speakers also speak English but as I said, each to their own.

[dcfcsteve]

What absolute nonsense. Why should I change how I normally refer to a city just because of the company that I am in?

Errrr - because that's what your favourite buzzword 'tolerance' often involves ????

What next - 'why should I not be allowed to march through an area where I'm not wanted ? :rolleyes:


Why not just accept that a substantial number of people in this country refer to the second city as Londonderry? As for the official name changing, were those that referred to it as Derry prior to the name change being intolerant?

I suspect you would be one of those people who would bloody-mindedly defend their right to still call St Petersburg 'Leningrad', Sri Lanka 'Ceylon', and Beijing 'Peking'.... :rolleyes:

Anyways - let's do a wee sense check on your self-proclaimed tolerance. With a location like Derry/Londonderry who's name is contentious, there are very many occasions when only one name can or is used - e.g. when the title of the city appears in print or on signs.

Despite the name of the city being democratically changed from 'Londonderry' to 'Derry' in 1984, numerous organisations that should have no political axe to grind on this matter still insist on using 'Londonderry'. I'm talking about BT, Northern Ireland Railways/Translink, the Roads Service etc. The PSNI also appear to insist on using 'Londonderry', even though they have numerous opportunities to alternate usage between the 2 names as the BBC does.

Given your deep hatred of intolerance, will you join with me in condemning organisations that, when forced to use only one name to denote the city, ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the population of Derry with regards the name they should use ? Or is it not intolerant for an official organisation to ignore the official name when it has to use only one title for the city ?

[dcfcsteve]

You have also conveniently ignored all the other allegations on the Derry City site which shows even more intolerance but sure, anyone that from Northern Ireland that disagrees with a Derry City supporter is a bigot. :rolleyes

Like what.....?

I think you'll find it's only idiots looking to stir things up that get that treatment. As I've said before, you'll find a number of 'out and proud' Linfield fans who are made more than welcome at the Brandywell on match days (last Thursday being a classic example).

Also - ask First Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club if they are of the same opinion as you with regards the intolerance of City fans

And then look in the mirror and ask yourself why is it only David that seems to feel/be made to feel that way...... :rolleyes:

[David]

Like what.....?

I think you'll find it's only idiots looking to stir things up that get that treatment. As I've said before, you'll find a number of 'out and proud' Linfield fans who are made more than welcome at the Brandywell on match days (last Thursday being a classic example).

Also - ask First Londonderry Linfield Supporters Club if they are of the same opinion as you with regards the intolerance of City fans

And then look in the mirror and ask yourself why is it only David that seems to feel/be made to feel that way...... :rolleyes:

Ask Linfield fans in general about how they feel about this and I can guarantee you that the majority will have opinions very similar to mine. I know Jim Rainey well and I know that he goes to games and fair play to him, that is his choice. Maybe it is an internet thing with City fans as I have already said I thought they were a superb advert for their club at Windsor Park. I was at your end of the ground that night selling programmes and bar one guy with a childish comment they were very friendly. On the internet though it is completely different. Check the Derry City forum in the wake of our last visit to the Brandywell to see intolerance to others opinion. Basically the attitude of some is that if you do not agree with Derry City supporters you are a bigot and I took great exception to that.

[David]

Errrr - because that's what your favourite buzzword 'tolerance' often involves ????

What next - 'why should I not be allowed to march through an area where I'm not wanted ? :rolleyes:



I suspect you would be one of those people who would bloody-mindedly defend their right to still call St Petersburg 'Leningrad', Sri Lanka 'Ceylon', and Beijing 'Peking'.... :rolleyes:

Anyways - let's do a wee sense check on your self-proclaimed tolerance. With a location like Derry/Londonderry who's name is contentious, there are very many occasions when only one name can or is used - e.g. when the title of the city appears in print or on signs.

Despite the name of the city being democratically changed from 'Londonderry' to 'Derry' in 1984, numerous organisations that should have no political axe to grind on this matter still insist on using 'Londonderry'. I'm talking about BT, Northern Ireland Railways/Translink, the Roads Service etc. The PSNI also appear to insist on using 'Londonderry', even though they have numerous opportunities to alternate usage between the 2 names as the BBC does.

Given your deep hatred of intolerance, will you join with me in condemning organisations that, when forced to use only one name to denote the city, ignore the democratically expressed wishes of the population of Derry with regards the name they should use ? Or is it not intolerant for an official organisation to ignore the official name when it has to use only one title for the city ?

If the name of the city was changed then I would have no problem whatsoever in agreeing with you that Derry should be used. Was the name of the city changed though or was it just the name of the council that was changed?

[dcfcsteve]

Wkipedia says that what was changed in 1984 was the name of the local authority, from "Londonderry County Borough Council" to "Derry City Council", but that the city itself is still called Londonderry, according to the city's Royal Charter.

Wikipedia says that, therefore, the official name of the city is still Londonderry.
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derry/Londonderry_name_dispute

The Council has sought independent legal advice on this, which has stated categorically that the decision by the elected representatives of the city to change the name of the Local Authority also carries with regards changing the name of the city.

The Council is curreny taking legal action against the British government on this matter to have the situation recognised and addressed.

It is thoroughly absurd and undemocratic that a bit of paper issued in the 1600's should be deemed to over-rule the express wishes of the overwhelming majority of the population of Derry with regards what their own town is called. And then people wonder why it's such a sensitive issue..... :rolleyes:

[dcfcsteve]

Ask Linfield fans in general about how they feel about this and I can guarantee you that the majority will have opinions very similar to mine. I know Jim Rainey well and I know that he goes to games and fair play to him, that is his choice. Maybe it is an internet thing with City fans as I have already said I thought they were a superb advert for their club at Windsor Park. I was at your end of the ground that night selling programmes and bar one guy with a childish comment they were very friendly. On the internet though it is completely different. Check the Derry City forum in the wake of our last visit to the Brandywell to see intolerance to others opinion. Basically the attitude of some is that if you do not agree with Derry City supporters you are a bigot and I took great exception to that.

What opinions ? What intolerance ? You're making uber-vague accusations here ! Smoke has more substance, ffs.....

If you're saying it appears to be only an internet issue, then how can you claim that it's "Linfield fans in general" , when we both know most don't go near message boards ?? :rolleyes:

It probably is only an internet thing - one where people come on using language that, whether they intend to or not, is considered provocative, when there is absolutely no need to do so. Go onto the forum now and you'll see plenty of posts from 'Linfield Jambo' 'ALinfield', 'The Shankill Candystripe' - all being treated like any other poster. DCFC fans - both on and off the internet - also have good relations with Institute fans (if only the same could be said for the relationship a sizeable number of Linfield fans have to some other clubs....).

So I ask you again - why is it only the very, very odd Linfield fan on the Derry site who has had felt need to complain about the responses their posts have elicited ? Well, I wonder indeed....

P.S. If you know young Rainey so well, maybe you'd relaise his name is 'Sean', not Jim. Or are you indulging in another bit of name-changing there yourself..... :D

[Dodge]

The second Wikipedia article says "The name of the city is still specified by its charter as Londonderry, and while the council has the power to apply to the British Secretary of State for Northern Ireland to change the city's name officially, it has not done so."

Why have they not done so?
Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia, particularly when it comes to politics

[dcfcsteve]

OK, I'll rephrase my question. Have they applied to change the name officially? If not, why not? If they have, what was the response?

With all due respect, I sincerely doubt Derry City Council would resort to the rather drastic and expensive measure of referal to the High Court on this issue if there was a very simple "Oh yeah !" alternative available....... :rolleyes:

If you don't throw a hissy-fit regarding the length of time it'll take me to dig out the information (wedding in Devon tomorrow, Stag weekend starting Friday, UEFA Cup game to go to next week etc etc) I'll come back to you with the full details of what the situation is in due course.

Meanwhile, this will do for starters : http://www.derrycity.gov.uk/Press%20Releases/120406-court.htm Gives you a flavour for the kind of hoops you have to jump through to have a democratic decision recognised in Northern Ireland.....

[David]

What opinions ? What intolerance ? You're making uber-vague accusations here ! Smoke has more substance, ffs.....

If you're saying it appears to be only an internet issue, then how can you claim that it's "Linfield fans in general" , when we both know most don't go near message boards ?? :rolleyes:

It probably is only an internet thing - one where people come on using language that, whether they intend to or not, is considered provocative, when there is absolutely no need to do so. Go onto the forum now and you'll see plenty of posts from 'Linfield Jambo' 'ALinfield', 'The Shankill Candystripe' - all being treated like any other poster. DCFC fans - both on and off the internet - also have good relations with Institute fans (if only the same could be said for the relationship a sizeable number of Linfield fans have to some other clubs....).

So I ask you again - why is it only the very, very odd Linfield fan on the Derry site who has had felt need to complain about the responses their posts have elicited ? Well, I wonder indeed....

P.S. If you know young Rainey so well, maybe you'd relaise his name is 'Sean', not Jim. Or are you indulging in another bit of name-changing there yourself..... :D

I wasn't aware of that and neither at a guess would most of the people around Windsor park who all, like me, call him Jim.

As for the reason there are no problems on the Derry City forum with the people you mention. That is quite simple really, it is because they do not disagree with the things said on there. Simply dare to disagree with some Derry City fans and you are branded a bigot and a terrorist and that is a fact, whether you like it or not.

[lopez]

So what if the name is officially changed or not. I'll call it Derry or Doire and Belfast, Beal Feirste, and NI the O6C. I call La Coruna, La Coruna not A Coruna (or Corunna). I call Roma, Rome and Munchen, Munich. I've just about got round to the fact that Peking is Beijing, but Guangzchow (or whatever) will be forever Canton due to my fondness for the food there. I say f*ck off to calling Bombay, Mumbai. Maybe David calls it Mumbai and that I'm an intolerent bigot for continuing to call it by its colonial name, but like him, I make no apologies for it. Perhaps if David referred to the club as ******derry City FC I'd say he's provoking, but he hasn't, so it's hardly anything to have a, what is it called, 'a hissy fit' about.

BTW, anyone see 'Grumpy Old Men' earlier this year, about name changes? Apparently the way we say Beijing (Bay - jing) is highly insulting and it should be pronounced Bigh - Juuuung. I agree with Rory McGrath that 'I'll call it 'Bigh - Juuuung' or whatever when the Chinese stop calling London, 'Run - run''... or should that be 'Run-run-delly':D ...:o

[dcfcsteve]

I wasn't aware of that and neither at a guess would most of the people around Windsor park who all, like me, call him Jim.

Are we talking about the same Derry City FC NI Supporters Club guy, with the banner, who lives in Oxford ??? The fact that he appears to have told you all his name is the neutral 'Jim', rather than the clearly Catholic/Nationalist 'Sean', speaks volumes really ! :eek:

I know plenty of people who go to the Brandywell and don't feel the need to hide being called 'Billy' or 'Mervyn' !


As for the reason there are no problems on the Derry City forum with the people you mention. That is quite simple really, it is because they do not disagree with the things said on there. Simply dare to disagree with some Derry City fans and you are branded a bigot and a terrorist and that is a fact, whether you like it or not.

David - you would manage to have an arguement in an empty room for feck sake. As I've said before, I wonder why it's only the very, very occassional person like you who seems to face such problems on the Derry board. Even some of your own fans were on there after the Setanta Cup game telling us to ignore you and saying that you were a bigot. And before you lose the rag - that's their words - not mine. Regardless of whether it is true or not - I'll put money that you won't find any Derry fans saying that about me, for example.

[David]

Are we talking about the same Derry City FC NI Supporters Club guy, with the banner, who lives in Oxford ??? The fact that he appears to have told you all his name is the neutral 'Jim', rather than the clearly Catholic/Nationalist 'Sean', speaks volumes really ! :eek:

I know plenty of people who go to the Brandywell and don't feel the need to hide being called 'Billy' or 'Mervyn' !



David - you would manage to have an arguement in an empty room for feck sake. As I've said before, I wonder why it's only the very, very occassional person like you who seems to face such problems on the Derry board. Even some of your own fans were on there after the Setanta Cup game telling us to ignore you and saying that you were a bigot. And before you lose the rag - that's their words - not mine. Regardless of whether it is true or not - I'll put money that you won't find any Derry fans saying that about me, for example.


I will not go into details on an internet forum about the person that you obviously hold in such high esteem but suffice to say I know a lot more about him than you do and I would not even get into dialogue with such a person. You have a very selective memory. You also had Linfield supporters on there that know me and stated that they do not always agree with me on many things but I could never be accused of being a bigot. I have done a lot of work at Windsor Park to help eradicate sectarianism and continue to do so and that is one accusation that I do find resentful and you will never hear such an accusation from anyone that knows me.

I think we are at crossed purposes and talking about a different Jim by the way but anyone who is called Sean has nothing whatsoever to worry about me knowing their real name so not quite sure what that says about me, does that speak volumes?

[David]

Are we talking about the same Derry City FC NI Supporters Club guy, with the banner, who lives in Oxford ??? The fact that he appears to have told you all his name is the neutral 'Jim', rather than the clearly Catholic/Nationalist 'Sean', speaks volumes really ! :eek:



The more I have thought about this statement the more it has annoyed me. You seem to be saying that I and others around Windsor would have a problem with Catholics. Maybe you should inform the many Catholic players in our team who are treated like heroes. Are you talking about the club that are taking more steps than any other to eradicate sectarianism?

Maybe the next time you play Drogheda you should ask their supporters about me and the big bad sectarian Linfield supporters. You should talk to the Drogheda fans who I personally invited to the Shankill Road for a drink and who we had an excellent day with before our game against them. Tell me does that speak volumes about me and Linfield supporters or does that not suit your petty little agenda?

[Not Brazil]

Are we talking about the same Derry City FC NI Supporters Club guy, with the banner, who lives in Oxford ??? The fact that he appears to have told you all his name is the neutral 'Jim', rather than the clearly Catholic/Nationalist 'Sean', speaks volumes really ! :eek:

I know plenty of people who go to the Brandywell and don't feel the need to hide being called 'Billy' or 'Mervyn' !


I think you are somewhat confused DCFC Steve.

Two seperate people, both friends of mine.

"Sean" from Oxford and Jim Rainey are seperate people.

Jim attends several Derry City games, and was in attendance last week for your famous victory over Gothenborg.

Neither Jim nor Sean have ever tried to disquise their names, no matter what company they find themselves in.

[Plastic Paddy]

David - you would manage to have an arguement in an empty room for feck sake

Pot... kettle... black. :D

:ball: PP

[dcfcsteve]

I think you are somewhat confused DCFC Steve.

Two seperate people, both friends of mine.

"Sean" from Oxford and Jim Rainey are seperate people.

Jim attends several Derry City games, and was in attendance last week for your famous victory over Gothenborg.

Neither Jim nor Sean have ever tried to disquise their names, no matter what company they find themselves in.

I thought it sounded a bit strange that Sean would tell people his name was something else, hence why I asked were we talking about the same person. And hence why I thought that if it was the same person, the only plausible explanation I could think of for him using the name 'Jim' was to hide such an obviously Catholic name. Not as a reflection upon you and who you associate with - but I could see how someone might not wanted such a name being shouted across stands etc to them. As it's thankfully not the same person, then this explanation is fortunately not needed.

I don't know who Jim rainey is. Actually when I think about it - is he Sean's wee brother ?

[Not Brazil]

I don't know who Jim rainey is. Actually when I think about it - is he Sean's wee brother ?

No, they are not in any way related.

They are acquainted through their mutual support of the Northern Ireland international team around Europe.

I was unaware that Sean's surname was Rainey also - I simply know him as Sean, as do all the other Northern Ireland regulars abroad.

Jim would be very amused at the notion that someone might think he was Sean's wee brother - Jim is of "Saga" age.:D, although would be renowned for his somewhat youthful outlook on life.:)

[Block G Raptor]

BT, Northern Ireland Railways/Translink, the Roads Service etc. The PSNI also appear to insist on using 'Londonderry', even though they have numerous opportunities to alternate usage between the 2 names as the BBC does.

You Forgot UlsterBus always rises my heckels when I get a Bus Eireann ticket from Dublin to Derry and an Ulsterbus ticket from Londonderry to Dublin. I dont get return tickets from BusEireann as I usually dont know how Long I'll be staying for

[Krstic]

You Forgot UlsterBus


No he didn't, Translink and Ulsterbus are the same.

And it's great to see David back on here attempting to portray Derry fans as intolerant.

David How's the 'True Blues project' going???

For those of you who don't know the 'True Blues Project' is YET another attempt to stamp out Sectarianism AND Racism at Windsor park.
A problem I've never encountered at any other ground in Ireland.

But David keep you throwing mud our way pal, and maybe some will stick like you're hoping.

[dcfcsteve]

I was about to raise the same point Krstic.

David - yet again you've taken a thread about a relatively inocuous topic and out-of-the-blue switched it into an attack upon Derry City FC and/or its ssupporters.

The last time you did this - in May, when you hijacked a thread on IFA Cup Final photos for similar purposes - I even PM'd you to say 'well done' for doing it yet again ! :rolleyes: And here we are 3 months later with the same sh!t !

Why do you insist on hijacking random threads and turning them into attacks on Derry City/its supporters ? In my many years on this site (and its predecessor in Johnny Ward's site) I have only experienced one other person act similarly. He was a Drogs fan, who admitted it was because he blamed Jim Roddy for trying to get his club put out of football. So what's your beef then David ? Why do you constantly hijack threads and turn them into attacks on DCFC and/or its fans ?? You can say all you like about beign friedns with Derry fans etc, but your actions speak very loudly and consistently on this site.

As a side note - I think your own definition of tolerance is only partially correct. You're correct to assert that people have the right to say/do what they want (what name they choose to call Derry). The large part you're missing, however, is the fact that tolerance also involves recognising and respecting the views of others, and at times altering your own behaviour to reflect that. You may therefore feel it was intolerant for Derry fans to react the way they did to language you used on our site. Likewise, it could just as easily be considered intolerant that you come onto the Derry City site and dogmatically insist on talking about 'Londonderry', or Donegal as a foreign/separate country, for example, when you know full well those comments would be considered provocative. Ansd when you could so easily have made the same point without need to do so with such language. You're just as guilty of intolerance for bloody-mindedly using references you know would be considered provocative - regardless of whether you use them every day or not. Again - I'll refer you to numerous other Linfield fans who have good banter on the Derry site without having such problems. Why ? Because they have the good sense and decency to not use language in a provocative way and then cry innocence when they get the inevitable response.

[dcfcsteve]

Pot... kettle... black. :D

:ball: PP

The only way I could have an arguement in an empty room PP would be if you insisted on sticking yer head through the door to start one..... :D

The ultimate irony on this thread is a Linfield fan accusing Derry City supporters of intolerance ! That's the biggest, blackest iron-mongery collection you're ever likely to see on foot.ie......

[David]

I was about to raise the same point Krstic.

David - yet again you've taken a thread about a relatively inocuous topic and out-of-the-blue switched it into an attack upon Derry City FC and/or its ssupporters.

The last time you did this - in May, when you hijacked a thread on IFA Cup Final photos for similar purposes - I even PM'd you to say 'well done' for doing it yet again ! :rolleyes: And here we are 3 months later with the same sh!t !

Why do you insist on hijacking random threads and turning them into attacks on Derry City/its supporters ? In my many years on this site (and its predecessor in Johnny Ward's site) I have only experienced one other person act similarly. He was a Drogs fan, who admitted it was because he blamed Jim Roddy for trying to get his club put out of football. So what's your beef then David ? Why do you constantly hijack threads and turn them into attacks on DCFC and/or its fans ?? You can say all you like about beign friedns with Derry fans etc, but your actions speak very loudly and consistently on this site.

As a side note - I think your own definition of tolerance is only partially correct. You're correct to assert that people have the right to say/do what they want (what name they choose to call Derry). The large part you're missing, however, is the fact that tolerance also involves recognising and respecting the views of others, and at times altering your own behaviour to reflect that. You may therefore feel it was intolerant for Derry fans to react the way they did to language you used on our site. Likewise, it could just as easily be considered intolerant that you come onto the Derry City site and dogmatically insist on talking about 'Londonderry', or Donegal as a foreign/separate country, for example, when you know full well those comments would be considered provocative. Ansd when you could so easily have made the same point without need to do so with such language. You're just as guilty of intolerance for bloody-mindedly using references you know would be considered provocative - regardless of whether you use them every day or not. Again - I'll refer you to numerous other Linfield fans who have good banter on the Derry site without having such problems. Why ? Because they have the good sense and decency to not use language in a provocative way and then cry innocence when they get the inevitable response.

I disagree completely that tolerance involves changing how you behave depending on what company you are in. As long as your behaviour is in no way sectarian or bigotted then I personally see no reason to change it whatsoever. I accept people for what they are and I certainly do not expect them to change their behaviour around me just because we may be of different religions or political beliefs. That being the case, if you play Institute away do you all start referring to your city as Londonderry given that your hosts by and large use that name?

I agree totally that tolerance involves accepting and respecting the views of others and throughout this thread I have continually done so, it is you who has continually displayed an inability to respect my views.

As for me "hijacking" this thread, I responded to a post that Derry City are welcoming to all regardless of their beliefs as that is simply not my experience of Derry City supporters. I have said on many occasions that your support at Windsor was superb, probably the best I have ever seen at Windsor but I feel there is this continued intolerance to accept that a person is entitled to an opinion regardless of whether you agree with it or not.

With regards to your statement that I have friends that are Derry City supporters, not quite sure where you got that from but I don't to be honest although would have no problem whatsoever with a friend being a Derry City supporter or indeed meeting up with Derry City supporters prior to a game, in much the same way as we did with Drogheda supporters.

By the way, as a point of interest, I received a few pm's from Derry City supporters in the wake of our last game at the Brandywell expressing their disagreement with some of the abuse directed towards me on your forums.

[David]

No he didn't, Translink and Ulsterbus are the same.

And it's great to see David back on here attempting to portray Derry fans as intolerant.

David How's the 'True Blues project' going???

For those of you who don't know the 'True Blues Project' is YET another attempt to stamp out Sectarianism AND Racism at Windsor park.
A problem I've never encountered at any other ground in Ireland.

But David keep you throwing mud our way pal, and maybe some will stick like you're hoping.

True Blues project is going very well, thanks very much. Seeing as you are so clued in, maybe you could advise the last project that Linfield FC had to deal with this problem. Personally I feel the difference between Linfield and others is that we acknowledge that we have a problem, others do not seem to keen to do so. As for a racist problem, there really isn't one. This reared its head at one match and was very promptly dealt with and the club's anti racism stance has been acknowledged by none other that Sepp Blater.

True Blues is unique in that it is players (at all levels), supporters, board, back room staff and club employees all working together to rid our great club of this problem. The problem has improved greatly over the years but it is still there with a very small minority and we are now trying to deal with them and stamp it out completely. I suppose only a Derry City supporter could find fault in that. :rolleyes:

[Krstic]

I suppose only a Derry City supporter could find fault in that. :rolleyes:

No fault in it at all David. I think it's great that you are attempting to stamp out Sectarianism and Racism (according to press release not my words David).

I just wish you'd stop trying to tar everyone with Linfields Brush.

If it's a problem at other clubs, why is it never highlighted by the media???

Your club has a problem and they are ONLY NOW attempting to deal with it (Sorry I thought they tried before, shame on them for not.)

So good luck with your 'True Blues Project'

[David]

No fault in it at all David. I think it's great that you are attempting to stamp out Sectarianism and Racism (according to press release not my words David).

I just wish you'd stop trying to tar everyone with Linfields Brush.

If it's a problem at other clubs, why is it never highlighted by the media???

Your club has a problem and they are ONLY NOW attempting to deal with it (Sorry I thought they tried before, shame on them for not.)

So good luck with your 'True Blues Project'

Maybe you should ask the media why they do not highlight other club's problems. If you think they do not have them then you are naive in the extreme. We have a few idiots, we accept that and we are trying to deal with it. When I said this was a first what I meant was that it was the first time the club have had a sustained project. There have been comments in the media in the past as well as messages in the programme but this is a concerted attempt to stamp out the few that are left. Maybe Derry City (and others) should start dealing with the few idiots that they have left in the same manner?

[Krstic]

Maybe you should ask the media why they do not highlight other club's problems. If you think they do not have them then you are naive in the extreme. We have a few idiots, we accept that and we are trying to deal with it. When I said this was a first what I meant was that it was the first time the club have had a sustained project. There have been comments in the media in the past as well as messages in the programme but this is a concerted attempt to stamp out the few that are left. Maybe Derry City (and others) should start dealing with the few idiots that they have left in the same manner?

Again a wee dig at your pet hate 'Derry City'.

We don't have a sectarian or racism problem David, Linfield DO, so get on and Deal with it and leave your hatred for Derry City behind you, that would be a good start.

[David]

Again a wee dig at your pet hate 'Derry City'.

We don't have a sectarian or racism problem David, Linfield DO, so get on and Deal with it and leave your hatred for Derry City behind you, that would be a good start.

When we were at the Brandywell there was sectarian abuse shouted from BOTH sides. I was very close to the Derry supporters and heard it. It was only a few people but it did happen. For the game at Windsor I was selling programmes. All but one person there was no problem with whatsoever but one guy shouted to all those around him to "buy f*ck all off the huns". As I said, we accept we have a problem, others including yourselves do not accept this but facts would suggest otherwise.

[dcfcsteve]

When we were at the Brandywell there was sectarian abuse shouted from BOTH sides. I was very close to the Derry supporters and heard it. It was only a few people but it did happen. For the game at Windsor I was selling programmes. All but one person there was no problem with whatsoever but one guy shouted to all those around him to "buy f*ck all off the huns". As I said, we accept we have a problem, others including yourselves do not accept this but facts would suggest otherwise.


How you can compare one idiot describing you as 'huns', or agan individual idiots involved in trading insults at a game, with a club whose fans on a number of occassions could be clearly heard singing anti-Catholic songs on TV during Setanta Cup games, or who were engaged in medieval-style hand-to-hand fighting with a paramilitary twist during the Irish Cup Final ? You astound me.

You're right David - every other club has problems of that nature. We just hide them better.... :rolleyes:

Taxi for David....!

[David]

How you can compare one idiot describing you as 'huns', or agan individual idiots involved in trading insults at a game, with a club whose fans on a number of occassions could be clearly heard singing anti-Catholic songs on TV during Setanta Cup games, or who were engaged in medieval-style hand-to-hand fighting with a paramilitary twist during the Irish Cup Final ? You astound me.

You're right David - every other club has problems of that nature. We just hide them better.... :rolleyes:

Taxi for David....!

So shouting sectarian abuse is fine? Who is trying to compare anything? Certainly not me. But in my opinion shouting sectarian abuse is ahem sectarianism. Also bear in mind that only Derry City members were allowed to travel to Windsor. I accept that over the two games there were very few involved but it did happen but sure, just ignore it. Derry City fans even seem to have a problem with certain people attending games if your own forum is anything to go by.