NI Passports

[Thunderblaster]

It's a wonder that this subject has not come up, but do you not think that it is up to the individual rather than the federation as to what passport a NI footballer bears on international duty?

[Dassa]

Its nothing political,more to do with people representing the same country having different passports. delegates of countries seem to have suspician with this. This problem would be solved if NI,Scotish,Welsh,English and republic of Ireland passports were introduced. Heres hoping.

[Dassa]

I know that and so do you but thats because we are smart:) . Im very happy with the current system and the players seem to be as well but the IFA have said that it is to do with paperwork.

[Dodge]

Doesn't seem a big problem. I@m sure if any player had a big enough problem with it, he wouldn't do it

[Kingdom]

can I ask what this is about ? What would it matter what passport a player bears as long as it is valid?

[Dassa]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4851410.stm

[Speranza]

City defender Mark Mc Chrystal is one of those caught up in this mess. AFAIK he refuses to get a British passport but can't use his Irish one. IFA are currently in contact with FIFA explaining the terms of the Good Friday Agreement (dual citizenship) e.t.c

[sonofstan]

City defender Mark Mc Chrystal is one of those caught up in this mess. AFAIK he refuses to get a British passport but can't use his Irish one. IFA are currently in contact with FIFA explaining the terms of the Good Friday Agreement (dual citizenship) e.t.c

How do Derry fans feel about players opting for NI? not been provocative or anything, i wouldn't have a problem with it - just wondering is all

[TonyD]

My reading of it was that the IFA were putting the players under pressure, and that it may be more to do with Political/Idealogical issues than anything else, but I could be wrong ? If they IFA are doing it for political reasons it seems a bit silly to me, as it could backfire on them with more players of a Nationalist background declaring for the Republic, which seemed to be a growing trend anyway. Also on the subject of passports, didn't some Anglos (Aldridge, Houghton etc,) travel on British passports for years while representing ROI ?

[Speranza]

How do Derry fans feel about players opting for NI? not been provocative or anything, i wouldn't have a problem with it - just wondering is all

I can only speak for myself in sayin that I am glad to see our players getting international recognition. Paddy Mc Court and Mark Mc Chrystal both opted for NI, I have been told that Mark chose NI because he didn't think he would get a cap for Republic. City players Kevin Deery, Eugene Ferry and Derry boy Darren Gibson (Man Utd) chose Republic.

I agree with TonyD in that Nationalists opting for the Republic is much more common than chooisng the six counties.

Its personal choice and although I could never do it the players must have felt that playing for NI would benefit their career. 99.9% of City fans may follow the Republic but we still feel proud of our players getting acclaim e.g Liam Coyle's NI top is framed in the Oakgrove Bar.

If only NI fans felt the same way. I remember when Darren Gibson chose Republic many posters wished career ending injuries on him on OurWeeCountry messageboard.

GFA put Dual Citizenship into legislature but obviously getting an Irish passport was available before that, when did the choice of which team to opt for become available?

[Dassa]

My reading of it was that the IFA were putting the players under pressure, and that it may be more to do with Political/Idealogical issues than anything else, but I could be wrong ?
Have to say this is a ridiculis statement, It wasnt anything to do with politics. It was the football bodies putting the IFA under pressure. why would the IFA work so hard for football for all then go about this just for political cause.

Im delighted to see anyone from NI playing for NI and think its dissapointing that someone would choose a different country, but thats my opinion. Everyone born in NI is an equal and no matter what beliefs they have should feel secure in playing for the place of their birth.

[Speranza]

Im delighted to see anyone from NI playing for NI and think its dissapointing that someone would choose a different country, but thats my opinion. Everyone born in NI is an equal and no matter what beliefs they have should feel secure in playing for the place of their birth

To be fair Dassa that viewpoint is naive to the point that it would insult players of a nationalist opinion. You should stop using fluffy words to soften your jibes such as "different country". It's obvious why a player would choose not to play for NI and opt for the Republic and it has nothing to do with feeling secure.

[Dassa]

To be fair Dassa that viewpoint is naive to the point that it would insult players of a nationalist opinion. You should stop using fluffy words to soften your jibes such as "different country". It's obvious why a player would choose not to play for NI and opt for the Republic and it has nothing to do with feeling secure.


well thats your opinion, i disagree and its not fluffy words. I thought the whole point of GFA and peace process was to create a country that we can all live in. therefore improving everything about society including the national team. If someone has a problem with NI stay with it and help us change it. Running off to play for someone else will improve nothing but thats my opinion and theres not much sense arguing about it.

[Speranza]

Dassa, I respect your opinion and claim to be Northern Irish but players and supporters choose the Republic as to be frank they don't think Northern Ireland should exist. It has nothing to do with improving or changing.

[Not Brazil]

My reading of it was that the IFA were putting the players under pressure, and that it may be more to do with Political/Idealogical issues than anything else, but I could be wrong ? If they IFA are doing it for political reasons it seems a bit silly to me, as it could backfire on them with more players of a Nationalist background declaring for the Republic, which seemed to be a growing trend anyway.
Your reading of the situation is wrong, as it happens.

The IFA in no way wish to alienate any player. Howard Wells (IFA CEO) has again raised the issue with FIFA/UEFA, and explained the outworkings of the GFA and the sensitivities around identity aroused in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland proudly field players from both main traditions at all levels. They always have, and always will.

Players are picked on their ability - nothing else!

The issue revolves around what FIFA/UEFA deem to be appropriate identification prior to matches, not about what passport a player may use for travel purposes.

Hopefully there will be a speedy resolution and common sense will prevail.



I agree with TonyD in that Nationalists opting for the Republic is much more common than chooisng the six counties.

If only NI fans felt the same way. I remember when Darren Gibson chose Republic many posters wished career ending injuries on him on OurWeeCountry messageboard.

A cursory glance at various Northern Ireland underage teams would suggest that your assertion that more nationalists declare for the ROI than NI is somewhat inaccurate.

How many is "many" wishing career threatening injuries to young Gibson on the website you mention?

Also, the latest FIFA criteria for eligibility make for interesting reading.

FIFA have said that players can only play for a national team on the following basis:

1/ "Born on the terrority of the relelant national association" (note not country)
2/ Parent or grandparent "born on the terrority of the relevant national association" (note not country)
3/ Resident for 2 years "on the terrority of the relevant national association" (note not country)

[Krstic]

A cursory glance at various Northern Ireland underage teams would suggest that your assertion that more nationalists declare for the ROI than NI is somewhat inaccurate.

How many is "many" wishing career threatening injuries to young Gibson on the website you mention?

Also, the latest FIFA criteria for eligibility make for interesting reading.

FIFA have said that players can only play for a national team on the following basis:

1/ "Born on the terrority of the relelant national association" (note not country)
2/ Parent or grandparent "born on the terrority of the relevant national association" (note not country)
3/ Resident for 2 years "on the terrority of the relevant national association" (note not country)

Well every player in the North can still play for the Republic of ireland, as the FAI is an All-Ireland body, with teams in both Northern and The Rep of Ireland.

[Not Brazil]

Well every player in the North can still play for the Republic of ireland, as the FAI is an All-Ireland body, with teams in both Northern and The Rep of Ireland.

That's an interesting concept.

[Krstic]

That's an interesting concept.

Interesting but also true.

And on the subject of the IFA carrying out FIFA or UEFA regualtions towards passports, I note their refusal at last nights EGM to do likewise in regards to the No Playing on a Sunday rule.

[Not Brazil]

And on the subject of the IFA carrying out FIFA or UEFA regualtions towards passports, I note their refusal at last nights EGM to do likewise in regards to the No Playing on a Sunday rule.

I haven't been fully briefed on last night's events as yet, but I understand that the meeting ending in complete farse, with CEO Howard Wells walking out in disgust and frustration.

Northern Ireland are, of course, scheduled to play on a Sunday during the forthcoming tour to the USA.:rolleyes:

The stupid, archaic rule needs to be binned as soon as possible...offering clubs as much choice as possible as to when they play matches, threatens nobody.

It's all about choice and flexibility.

[Dodge]

Not Barazil, where did you see those new FIFA regulations regarding eligibilty?

[Gather round]

99.9% of City fans may follow the Republic but we still feel proud of our players getting acclaim e.g Liam Coyle's NI top is framed in the Oakgrove Bar

Is it really as low as one in a thousand? You must have a fairly precise idea of how many Prods/ unionists/ NI fans turn up at the Brandywell?


If only NI fans felt the same way. I remember when Darren Gibson chose Republic many posters wished career ending injuries on him on OurWeeCountry messageboard

Surely the vast majority do think the same way (that is, don't want Gibson to suffer such an injury)?

[Not Brazil]

Not Barazil, where did you see those new FIFA regulations regarding eligibilty?
FIFA Circular 901.

Great to see the Queens University Northern Ireland Supporters Club and their Derry City supporting co scholars doing their bit to enhance community relations during the week.:cool:

I believe a good time was had by all concerned, with the match ending in an honourable 2-2 draw.

[Dodge]

Thanks. Thought it was opening up a huge can of worms (seeing as you didn't mention nationality) but it justs seems common sense.

[dcfcsteve]

well thats your opinion, i disagree and its not fluffy words. I thought the whole point of GFA and peace process was to create a country that we can all live in. therefore improving everything about society including the national team. If someone has a problem with NI stay with it and help us change it. Running off to play for someone else will improve nothing but thats my opinion and theres not much sense arguing about it.

The whole point of GFA was also about recognising that Northern Ireland comprises of 2 main communities with differing aspirations regarding the province, and an acceptance that both those aspirations are legitimate.

By stating that anyone born in NI should only want to play for NI, you are refusing to recognise the legitimate aspirations/identity of one half of the province. We can all live peacfeully in the north without shooting or hating each other, yet still have different ideas of where we'd like to see the province in the future, and differing loyalties regarding international football. Dismissing such legitimate aspirations as "running off to play somewhere else" is just intolerant.

[crc]

... the province...
... province.
where we'd like to see the province in the future
You've been in London too long Steve!:D

[$Leon$]

Just as a matter of interest how many players born in the 6 counties have actually declared for the repubic in recent years?
The only one i can think of who was stuck between the 2 was McAteer. (Liverpool born but family from Co Down so eligable for both)

[Dassa]

Alan Kernaghan (our own fault) Gerard Crossley, Darren Gibson, Mark Mckeever,Gerard Doherty. Just a few i remember sure theres more.

[Dassa]

Gibson has potential to be a good player.

[SwiftsSupporter]

Think his was partly our fault too as he did play in the u17's and just on that point is he 21 yet..........

Anyway back to the passports I think Wells is confused and doesn't know exactly what is happening either which really is worrying, I sense another **** up

[Dazzy]

Gibson has potential to be a good player.

Most players born in Derry, usually have one side of their family drom Donegal so that is why many declare for the Republic over N.I.

[Krstic]

Derry born Gibson is Manu's Reserve Captain, he's 18 and looks set for a big future.

He was inlcuded in a few first team squads this year and made his debut in a league cup game.

Don't be shocked to see him loaned out to a championship side next season for some first team experience.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Well there have been one or two at Women's international level from the North who declared for the Republic of Ireland. This was partly due to a decision by the IFA, some years ago for financial reasons, not to field an Under 16 International Women's team. So some players from the North at the time declared for the Republic, partly because the North did not field a team at that age bracket at the time.

[Dassa]

I feared that the IFA decision to scrap the u21 for the last two years would have led to a greater loss to ROI but this hasnt seemed to materialise to the level I thought, but if it had the IFA had only themselves to blame.

[CollegeTillIDie]

I feared that the IFA decision to scrap the u21 for the last two years would have led to a greater loss to ROI but this hasnt seemed to materialise to the level I thought, but if it had the IFA had only themselves to blame.

Once Northern Ireland have capped the players at Under 19 or Under 17 level in competitive games I think they have them for life!

[gaf1983]

I read this letter in today's Irish Times, and have to say I agree with every point the guy makes:



Madam, - Just when I thought that we might be witnessing the demise of sporting bigotry in the North with the mighty success of the tremendous Setanta Cup and a real possibility of an all-Ireland soccer league, just when I thought we might never again witness the vicious naked sectarianism endured by true Irish football fans during that infamous "night in November" in Windsor Park, along come the dinosaurs that are the Irish Football Association to announce that henceforth all prospective Northern Ireland players must hold a British passport.

This decision is so crass, so blatantly partisan it has set the beautiful game in the North back generations. Footballers who rightly have kept their private politics and sports separated will now be asked to state publicly whether they are de facto nationalist or unionist, Protestant or Catholic, British or Irish.

From one passport holder who received his footballing baptism in the hallowed grounds of Derry City's Brandywell, a club which has since its inception never allowed sectarianism or bigotry to taint its great sporting tradition, I unequivocally condemn the IFA for this truly awful imposition. - Yours, etc,

DONAL CARLIN, Main Street, Ballyconnell, Co Cavan.


But having read through this thread, I'm just confused about what the IFA's actual stance is on the matter - did they really announce that all Northern Ireland player's have to carry British passports? When? Who dictated this - FIFA or UEFA? As someone pointed out earlier, are the international footballing authorities not aware of the terms of the Good Friday Agreement?

[SwiftsSupporter]

It's nothing to do with bigotry, religion or sectarianism. More ****e of the Irish News. They just love to put the IFA and the Northern Ireland side out as sectarian bigots.

[dcfcsteve]

It's nothing to do with bigotry, religion or sectarianism. More ****e of the Irish News. They just love to put the IFA and the Northern Ireland side out as sectarian bigots.

To be fair SS - it's clearly a letter submitted by a named and placed individual, and therefore cannot be taken in any way as the Irish New's views. You may think they have a problem with the IFA, but you're likewise letting your personal views on the Irish News colour your judgement here.

What's more, I find nothing in that letter that I'm able to disagree with - either factually or 'morally'.

I wonder if it's the same Donal Carlin who used to work at the College in Derry....?

[SwiftsSupporter]

Yes it is a letter but a letter published by the paper. This passport issue was brought up because of FIFA and UEFA were getting allegedly confused by players having different passports. What’s bigotry about that? and what does it have to do with religion?

[Not Brazil]

I read this letter in today's Irish Times, and have to say I agree with every point the guy makes:




But having read through this thread, I'm just confused about what the IFA's actual stance is on the matter - did they really announce that all Northern Ireland player's have to carry British passports? When? Who dictated this - FIFA or UEFA? As someone pointed out earlier, are the international footballing authorities not aware of the terms of the Good Friday Agreement?

The CEO of the IFA, Howard Wells, had a meeting with SDLP MLA, Pat Ramsey, on this issue earlier in the week. The meeting was at the request of Mr Ramsey who sought clarification on the IFA's stance.

From the IFA site.

IFA Chief Executive Howard Wells reports on a very productive meeting with Assembly Member Pat Ramsey.

And further to this meeting the IFA wishes to make the following statement:

“At the meeting at Stormont, the discussion revolved around wide ranging topics from passports to grassroots development.

“On the passport issue, Mr Howard Wells informed Mr Pat Ramsey MLA that he was in regular contact with FIFA on the matter and was expecting a substantive response within a few days.

“Both men concurred that the Good Friday Agreement should be respected by the Football Authorities and this would be their collective objective.

“Mr Wells committed to keep Mr Ramsey abreast of developments and progress on this and other matters of mutual interest”.

Seems like the Northern Ireland/IFA bashers have their wires crossed again.:(

Clues as to the real bigotry story of the week is to be found in the Irish News letter page today...the patriotic Gaels of Chicago have decided to overrule an invitation to the IFA and Northern Ireland team to train and "meet and greet" at their grounds next Tuesday.

How sad.

[REVIP]

It's nothing to do with bigotry, religion or sectarianism. More ****e of the Irish News. They just love to put the IFA and the Northern Ireland side out as sectarian bigots.

It's actually from the Irish Times, which is the Protestant paper in the Republic, (look at the Church notices in Saturday's edition), and, insofar as I am aware, has no agenda whatoever regarding the IFA or the Northern Ireland side.

As someone who went to the British embassy in Ballsbridge a fortnight ago to renew my British passport (I could carry an Irish passport, having an Irish wife and having resided in the State for seven years, but choose to retain my English identity), I would agree with the letter.

[Not Brazil]

I would agree with the letter.

Even tho it has been clearly demonstrated that the thrust of the letter is inaccurate and misleading?:eek:

[dcfcsteve]

Yes it is a letter but a letter published by the paper. This passport issue was brought up because of FIFA and UEFA were getting allegedly confused by players having different passports. What’s bigotry about that? and what does it have to do with religion?

I don't buy this innocent buck-passing on the part of the IFA.

The IFA are fully aware that there are 2 communities in Northern Ireland, holding 2 different passports - one British, one Irish. Not every member of one community holds one specific passport and vice-versa - but broadly there is a passport divide that also reflects the religious and cultural divide.

When this issue was raised with the IFA they had two choices :

A) Explain the unique nature of Northern Ireland to UEFA/FIFA, and have their officials accept that either of only 2 specific passports would be acceptable in legitimising Northern Irish players. Hardly a difficult task.
B) Accept the FIFA/UEFA communication unchallenegd - in the full knowledge that it would probably cause a stink back home.

In their infinite wisdom, the IFA chose option B. Nothing short of partisanship, extreme naivety, incompetence or sheer stupidity can explain this decision. I suspect a mix of all 4 - with stupidity being the lion's share.

It seems that they have now accepted that they need to do option A above - which they could have done in the first place.

So - to blame FIFA/UEFA for this is to completely let the IFA off the hook on their failed duty of representing the interests of their members/community/country within International football. Particularly as they were the ones who best understood the problems such a ruling would predictably create. Hence why the IFA is worthy of criticism on this issue

[Not Brazil]

Could I remind posters that NOBODY said that players could not utilise either a British or Irish passport to travel on.

I agree with dcfcsteve in that the IFA should have more proactively challenged the FIFA/UEFA ruling initially.

Very simply, they should (and now have) explained to the authorities that matters of identity can get some people very touchy in Northern Ireland.

Both FIFA and UEFA are fully aware of the efforts the IFA have made in recent times to challenge bigotries, and they should have been informed earlier that their ruling did not help.

But, let's not forget the fact that this story comes directly from a FIFA/UEFA ruling, not an IFA one.

I think the matter will be resolved satisfactorily for all concerned in the very near future.

[Gather round]

Donal from Cavan is ****-stirring. Taking his points in order,

a) much as I welcome the Setanta Cup, "tremendous" is going a bit far

b) its inception no more represents the end of bigotry than its absence in the past reflects that. Teams from both leagues have been playing each other, and trading players, for decades. Were they bigoted nevertheless?

c) there isn't really any more possibility of an all-Ireland league now than in the 1920s or 90s, is there? As seems to have been discussed exhaustively on this forum

d) what was so vicious or naked about our routine draw with Portugal last year? Unless you mean Cristiano Ronaldo taking a **** against the North Stand. And without condoning what happened in 1993, you're exaggerating. Irish fans have seen far worse elsewhere, including in Lansdowne Road in 1995. Much of the criticism of the earlier game was because Bingham encouraged our fans to get behind the team. What did you expect, him to treat it as a friendly, or go somewhere neutral as Jack demanded?

e) dinosaurs. Ok, fair dos, point taken...

f) I'd argue that the IFA's decision wasn't "crass", though I disagree with it. Yes, there are particular circumstances in Northern Ireland, but those (on both sides) who think it unique are surely wrong. There are plenty of regions elsewhere in Europe with often much larger disaffected minorities looking across a border for identity- Transylvania, much of ex-Yugoslavia etc. We don't stand out in deserving a special dispensation

g) as non-Brazilian suggests, it's set community harmony back a week or two before UEFA announces a compromise for us (and Erdelyi, Bosna Srpska and the rest)

h) most fans don't really care whether players are de facto green or orange (actually don't you mean de jure, de facto they can have whatever politics they please, or none?), provided they take playing international football seriously. NI have plenty, from, both sides, who haven't!

i) regardless of the Irish Times's politics (and while Prods in the South may tend to prefer it to other papers, they aren't numerous enough to dictate editorial line), Geraldine Kennedy does emply sub-editors. Whose job should include culling obvious bull**** like Donal's from the letters page.

[REVIP]

regardless of the Irish Times's politics (and while Prods in the South may tend to prefer it to other papers, they aren't numerous enough to dictate editorial line), Geraldine Kennedy does emply sub-editors. Whose job should include culling obvious bull**** like Donal's from the letters page.
The Irish Times sells about 110-120,000 copies - the mainstream Protestant community at the 2002 census was about 150,000 - about 60,000 households, predominantly middle class and predominantly Irish Times readers.

The Times very much reflects their ethos, liberal on social issues such as divorce and contraception, and conservative on economic issues. Some of the Protestants I know would have voted PD last time, most would be Fine Gael. Geraldine Kennedy would not be out of line with many of them.


Even tho it has been clearly demonstrated that the thrust of the letter is inaccurate and misleading?:eek:
The thrust of the letter was that it was people's own business what passport they carried.

The IFA shouldn't have allowed the matter to reach the pitch it did.

[dcfcsteve]

c) there isn't really any more possibility of an all-Ireland league now than in the 1920s...is there?

But we did have an All-island league for one and a half years in the 1920's ! :D

Before the Free Staters got carried away with themselves and split the party up...... :o :p

[SwiftsSupporter]

I don't buy this innocent buck-passing on the part of the IFA.

The IFA are fully aware that there are 2 communities in Northern Ireland, holding 2 different passports - one British, one Irish. Not every member of one community holds one specific passport and vice-versa - but broadly there is a passport divide that also reflects the religious and cultural divide.

When this issue was raised with the IFA they had two choices :

A) Explain the unique nature of Northern Ireland to UEFA/FIFA, and have their officials accept that either of only 2 specific passports would be acceptable in legitimising Northern Irish players. Hardly a difficult task.
B) Accept the FIFA/UEFA communication unchallenegd - in the full knowledge that it would probably cause a stink back home.

In their infinite wisdom, the IFA chose option B. Nothing short of partisanship, extreme naivety, incompetence or sheer stupidity can explain this decision. I suspect a mix of all 4 - with stupidity being the lion's share.

It seems that they have now accepted that they need to do option A above - which they could have done in the first place.

So - to blame FIFA/UEFA for this is to completely let the IFA off the hook on their failed duty of representing the interests of their members/community/country within International football. Particularly as they were the ones who best understood the problems such a ruling would predictably create. Hence why the IFA is worthy of criticism on this issue

They could have done that first but then again it's much better to spread it all over the press, as Mr. Boyce loves seeing himself in lights. The issue was handled badly I think we all know that but if your writing a letter about it there’s no need to bring religion into it.

Some people just like to go round and try and find something where they can mention bigotry, sectarianism and so on no matter what the issue is.

[Not Brazil]

I watched a Northern Ireland Under 21 team (ie. the future) earlier this month.

It included a Celtic goalkeeper, a Glentoran full back from Poleglass (former Antrim Minor GAA player), a Derry City Centre Half, a Linfield Centre Forward and the team was captained proudly by a player from nationalist West Belfast.

Who cares what passport they have?:rolleyes:

[Dassa]

I watched a Northern Ireland Under 21 team (ie. the future) earlier this month.

It included a Celtic goalkeeper, a Glentoran full back from Poleglass (former Antrim Minor GAA player), a Derry City Centre Half, a Linfield Centre Forward and the team was captained proudly by a player from nationalist West Belfast.

Who cares what passport they have?:rolleyes:

Couldnt agree more and heres hoping it contnues. Oh and of course we won:D

[Speranza]

Who cares what passport they have?

They do, it can't be overlooked as being a simple bit of red tape which can be dealt with. The "nationality" of the players has to be respected.

However, Mr Ramsey is a hypocrite to show any interest in local football while the council his party run in Derry continue to show total distain and apathy towards the Brandywell problem.