NI Passports

[Dassa]

They do, it can't be overlooked as being a simple bit of red tape which can be dealt with. The "nationality" of the players has to be respected.

However, Mr Ramsey is a hypocrite to show any interest in local football while the council his party run in Derry continue to show total distain and apathy towards the Brandywell problem.

Personally hope the IFA sort this matter out pronto. would be a shame to see all their hard work and that of the true fans go down the drain over something like this. As for derry council lets face it is there any council in NI that support their local clubs?

[Speranza]

You are right about local councils in general but DCC should be held up as a prime example of how not to run a City. They are a disgrace and a shambles and waste away the huge potential our city has.

[Dassa]

You are right about local councils in general but DCC should be held up as a prime example of how not to run a City. They are a disgrace and a shambles and waste away the huge potential our city has.

maybe just there attitude to football remember reading somewhere about the council controversally giving whacks of land to GAA clubs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4583502.stm

Dont know everything about it just what i read, but seems clear alot of help towards these clubs not afforded to DCFC or IFC.

the only council to seemingly put any effort into their club is that of ballymena with the council funding that new impressive stand.

[Speranza]

If the council were balanced in how their give land away then I wouldn't have a problem but they have given Sean Dolans GFC this land and refuse to give us the Brandy. Within the next month we should hear back from DCC so I'm hoping they will be sensible (for a change) and make the move that will benefit the City as a whole.

[Dassa]

out of curiousity does the council own the Brandywell and riverside or just the brandywell. have the club ever been in the situation to buy it off the DCC or is it unrealistic in money terms.

[anto eile]

3/ Resident for 2 years "on the terrority of the relevant national association" (note not country)

off topic i know but does that mean if i went to live in equatiorial guinea for 2 years i could play for them?

[dcfcsteve]

out of curiousity does the council own the Brandywell and riverside or just the brandywell. have the club ever been in the situation to buy it off the DCC or is it unrealistic in money terms.

Just the Brandywell.

It was bequeathed to the Council to hold in-trust for the people of Derry by the Honourable Irish Society, with a pre-requisite that it be used primarily for sport.

DCC therefore cannot sell it off, but they could issue a long lease on it - which is the proposal from DCFC.

And because soccer isn't a proverbial political football in the city, we get nothing form the Council whilst GAA clubs get lots.

[Thunderblaster]

And because soccer isn't a proverbial political football in the city, we get nothing form the Council whilst GAA clubs get lots.

What is the political make up of DCC? Can you lobby the politicians on that matter? Isn't Derry more of a soccer city than GAA? If these guys come looking for your vote, politely remind them of this.

[Dazzy]

Every politician puts on the we care about you act around election but then they do **** all and spend a fortune cutting grass 2 times a year around the town, and its more then the figure then spend maintaining the Brandywell!

[crc]

...to hold in-trust for the people of Derry by the Honourable Irish Society...
Just being pedantic, but its "The Honourable The Irish Society" Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Honourable_The_Irish_Society)

[Gather round]

Derry City Council by party:

SDLP 14
SF 10
DUP 5
UUP 1

To REVIP: Audit Bureau of Circulation figures suggest the Times's 117,000 is about 18% of Irish sales of Irish daily newspapers (ie not counting local editions of British papers). 150,000 Protestants is about 4% of the population of the state. Their figures cover Ireland as a whole, but the Times doesn't have high sales in NI- unionists have their own papers.

[Krstic]

What is the political make up of DCC? Can you lobby the politicians on that matter? Isn't Derry more of a soccer city than GAA? If these guys come looking for your vote, politely remind them of this.

Sadly people in Northern Ireland don't consider real issues when voting time comes around.

It's back to the trenches and pick your colour.:eek:

[Not Brazil]

A couple of points;

Find myself agreeing with the IFA :o


the continued illegal occupation of the NE Ulster 'theme park';

.

Gonzo,

You are agreeing with the IFA about what exactly?

Who continues to illegally occupy NE Ulster?

[pól-dcfc]

Gonzo you are definitly WUM number 1 on this forum.

[Thunderblaster]

Derry City Council by party:

SDLP 14
SF 10
DUP 5
UUP 1



Thanks for that info.

[pól-dcfc]

Your post had little if any relevence to what was being discussed.

Wind Up pure and simple

[David]

Given the post was deleted for reasons of 'diplomacy';You can hardly then argue this,FFS.
& I accept what A Face says more readily, than people who take 'offence' so easily they are so unwilling to post any response as their sensibilities are :rolleyes: so affected re.any 'controversial' topic.:(


Even the Northern politicians are more flexible in their outlook than some on here.:cool:

I complained to admin rather than get involved in a political debate on here, it is after all a football forum and I certainly found of the stuff you had on there offensive and definetely irrelevant to the thread.

[Not Brazil]

Just let's say if you can't work it out :rolleyes: there's no point me explaining.;)

I see.

You were expressing a prejudiced (political) opinion rather than stating (political) fact.

Here's a fact for you.

The IFA permit players to travel on whatever passport they choose, whether it be British or Irish.

If people are going to attempt to score cheap political points, could they at least get their facts straight?

Thanks.

[Not Brazil]

NB, Merely expressing my opinion.
Didn't say it should be written in stone & no doubt the IFA, like most FA's, will make up the rules as they go along anyway. Also, not all 'Prods'. on the island of Ireland think & act like a certain bunch of unrepresentative bigots in the North. Now that is fact!;)


I merely point out that your opinion does not constitute fact.

With regards to the passports issue, ie the substance of the thread, the IFA permit players to travel on either British or Irish passports.

As for you comments about "Prods", I fail to see any relevence whatsoever it has to the discussion, and am at a loss as to fathom out why you added them.

I care not what religion, if any, anyone is, so I would be grateful in future when you are discussing issues with me that you refrain from sectarianising the debate.

[Speranza]

Gonzo, is there any point to your continued presence on this messageboard? Allegations of City fans being "pious" and "apolitical" are getting really tedious at this stage. Throwing about word like "prods" is also going to cause offence. Do us all a favour and beat it, allowing the adults to have a serious and respectful debate.

[dcfcsteve]

I complained to admin rather than get involved in a political debate on here, it is after all a football forum and I certainly found of the stuff you had on there offensive and definetely irrelevant to the thread.

I wouldn't mind so much if Gonzo's offensiveness had a degree of sensible flow and structure behind it ! Instead we're stuck with random, dis-jointed rantings and petty abusive sentiments and terminology without even a degree of coherence or relevance to the discussion.

Tell you what Gonzo - PM me and I'll post you over 10p to run along to the shops and buy yourself some sweeties. The grown-ups are busy at the moment - we'll give you some attention in a bit, I promise......

[pól-dcfc]

Take whatever stance you like on the issue of passports gonzo, but you've dragged many totally unrelated points into this thread that should be highlighted as WUMage.

And 'largely unrepresentative of Protestants in Ireland as a whole' - fact is they are the majority of the Protestants in Ireland, so are representative. And the fair majority of 'them' have no bigotted views. Don't tar all 'prods' with the UVF/LVF brush.

[Not Brazil]

This includes personal views on my *'Protest-ant' bretheren in the North, who are largely unrepresentative of other Protestants in Ireland as a whole. Do happen to know this from extensive personal experience. As I said, a fact.
Or of course, you would all :rolleyes: know better, as usual. How is this then somehow 'sectarianising' the debate?!
The reason I mentioned them, was a no.of other posters had earlier in the thread, in the context of their overall presence in Ireland.
Or maybe collective amnesia has set in, before you start whinging.
:rolleyes:

Have you a relevent point you wish to make, or do you just want to continue sectarianising the debate with your bigoted opinions and sweeping generalisations about Northern "Prods"?


PS.
Going back on topic;the reason Passports are so contentious, is they represent nationality, an issue neither 'side' of the majority in the North will readily relinquish.

Though anyone not taking a cosy PC stance on this with an opposing view, this somehow makes them a 'WUM', FFS. Get real.
What exactly is your "opposing view", and who exactly are you opposing?

Have you bothered to read the thread at all?

[Not Brazil]

Having been in close proximity to this august body, please illustrate how my opinions are 'bigoted'? & how the debate has been sectarianised?! ;)
What "august body"?

Why are you talking about religious persuasion?...it has no relevance to the debate, as far as I can ascertain.


If people bothered to read what was said & bothered to put their own personal paranoia/blinkers & the infamous 'Ulster moral high ground' to one side :rolleyes: they might realise what had been said?

What are you on about?

I asked you about your opposing view, and whom you were opposing.

Are you going to elaborate, or not?

[dcfcsteve]

Gonzo - has your computer got a virus or something ? You're either reading a different thread than everyone else on here, or you're seeing posts and issues that don't exist.

Your postings seem to get more rambling and insane with time.

If you've something constructive to add to the debate - fine. If you're looking to wield an axe about your perception of northern protestants, then I suggest you look elsewhere. Meanwhile, stop banging on about thoroughly irrelevant issues such as southern protestants and "august bodies" (I thought it was May...?) and responding in a bizarre, unconnected and unintelligible manner. This is a football thread in a football forum. You're very difficult to take seriously as anything other than a WUM....

[pól-dcfc]

In your :rolleyes: opinion.

As for the 'P'-word, unless you have personal experience of being one, I would humbly suggest your interpretation of the 'facts' re.their Southern representatives is seriously misguided.:p

Doubtless in your pious over-sensitivity, you will perceive this as a wind-up!

What part of my post was opinion?

Ulster Prods are the majority of Protestants in all Ireland. You continually bring irrelevancy into this thread - for example your "august body".

What Southern representatives have I mentioned? As for piety - you won't find a less religious person than me, and although I wish it was the case, I'm not a God, nor do I consider myself one.

Surely you can see that every other poster on this thread has pulled you up on irrelevance?

[dcfcsteve]

I'll leave you to it peeps. If you don't understand(or don't want to), fair enough.
Not saying you're right mind.:p

There's only one person on this thread who doesn't seem to understand or have a clue what's going on Gonzo.

Close the door after yourself there....

[Speranza]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/5016872.stm

This ruling begs the question, who do FIFA think they are? They recognised the difference in football and politics when they ruled that Billy Boys e.t.c could be ignored because it was outside their jurisdiction. This ruling contravenes the GFA and makes the idea of sovereignty dead.

I hope the players with Irish passports do the sensible thing and refuse to play.

[Not Brazil]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/5016872.stm

This ruling begs the question, who do FIFA think they are? They recognised the difference in football and politics when they ruled that Billy Boys e.t.c could be ignored because it was outside their jurisdiction. This ruling contravenes the GFA and makes the idea of sovereignty dead.

I hope the players with Irish passports do the sensible thing and refuse to play.

You will note, lest there be any confusion, that this a FIFA decision...not an IFA decision.

It is bitterly disappointing.

FIFA have been fulsome in their praise of the IFA's "Football For All" campaign, under the sterling stewardship of Michael Boyd...this decision flies in the face of what the IFA are trying (honourably) to do.:mad:

[Krstic]

Very strange.

Surely you don't need a passport in order to be a citizen of a country???

I don't have a British passport, but I was born in Northern Ireland so surely the British Government recognise me as British ( Even if I don't;) )

Or have FIFA now cleared it up once and for all, anyone without a Passport is a non-national:confused:

[dcfcsteve]

Very strange.

Surely you don't need a passport in order to be a citizen of a country???

I don't have a British passport, but I was born in Northern Ireland so surely the British Government recognise me as British ( Even if I don't;) )

Or have FIFA now cleared it up once and for all, anyone without a Passport is a non-national:confused:

A passport is internationally accepted proof of stated nationality - not evidence of entitlement to nationality. There is a big difference.

You can be British without holding a British passport. However - you will not be able to prove you are British (e.g. to customs, foreign organisations, internal financiers etc) without one.

Likewise, you can still be de facto an Irish citizen even if you hold a British passport without holding an Irish one (I have friends who do so). Such is the benefit of dual-citizenship (although for legal purposes, it would be difficult in those circumstances to prove you are anything other than British).

At international football games, all players have to prove their credentials to the officials present before they are allowed to play. Hence why passports - as the only internationally accepted proof of nationality - are required.

This is a terrible decision by FIFA, and risks polarising the NI playing squad. I note that the reason they gave is that "The fact that a player holds an Irish Republic passport does not demonstrate conclusively that he or she is eligible to play for Northern Ireland."

I guess this is the key - someone with a Republic passport, no family connection to Northern Ireland, and no entitlement to British citizenship could arguably use an Irish passport to represent the north. There does therefore appear to be a loop-hole there, but surely there's a better way of closing it ??

[Schumi]

Would a British passport prove eligibility to play for the North? Can someone born in England whose family for 10 generations have been English play for Northern Ireland? My understanding is that they couldn't but they would still have a British passport. :confused:

[magic]

FIFA says a player must show a UK passport to 'prove eligibility to play for Nothern Ireland'. So what about UK passport holding players like Wayne Rooney etc...???

A UK passport does no such thing. It is exactly as useful or as useless as an Irish passport from that point of view. What are they at?

[dcfcsteve]

Someone who has a British passport would technically be able to prove their entitlement to play for any home nation. Unless and until they introduce Welsh, Scottish and Norn Irish passports, there is no way around this.

In practice, however, the 4 'home nations' select only players with family links.

This is all a result of the historical anachornism whereby the UK is the only political state that is allowed more than one representative in international football. There is constant pressure from other nations for this to change. Some day it may well do so. But until then, we'll be stuck with this imperfect loop-hole regarding players for UK teams.

[patcorr]

Please excuse my ignorance here. But what are the current requirements for a player to play for Northern Ireland. Is it anyone who holds a British passport can play?

[Krstic]

What then for players who have represented N.Ireland but do not and will not get a British Passport???

Are they now unable to play international football or can they now opt to play for the Rep Of Ireland???

Could mean Paddy McCourt switching to play for ROI:D

Although I sense that if any player wished to challenge this ruling through the courts on some "Human Rights" issue, they's probably leave FIFA with egg on their Faces.

[Dazzy]

Could mean Paddy McCourt switching to play for ROI:D

Pat McCourts International career is over unless he get a British passport!

[Not Brazil]

Please excuse my ignorance here. But what are the current requirements for a player to play for Northern Ireland. Is it anyone who holds a British passport can play?

As FIFA rules now stand:

1/ Born in Northern Ireland
2/ Parent or grandparent born in Northern Ireland
3/ Resident for 2 years in Northern Ireland

[Krstic]

Pat McCourts International career is over unless he get a British passport!

But Dazzy it's not that simple.

If FIFA are only enforcing this rule now then they are potentially making it impossible for Pat or someone similar to play international football.
Therefore they would have to make allowances.

Although I cannot see this rule staying in place as a wee trip to the European court ala Mr Bosman would soon have FIFA ducking for cover.

I'm not Northern Irish because I don't have a British Passport???

[Gather round]

the UK is the only political state that is allowed more than one representative in international football

Are you sure?

Faeroe Isles = autonomous region of Denmark

Andorra = effective joint authority wielded by Spain (through a bishop, nominally) and France.

The British state having four is an anomaly, but in practice harmless to everyone else. And the trend in European (football) politics is to more micro-countries.

Can't see the situation changing.

**** FIFA

[Krstic]

Are you sure?

Faeroe Isles = autonomous region of Denmark

Andorra = effective joint authority wielded by Spain (through a bishop, nominally) and France.

The British state having four is an anomaly, but in practice harmless to everyone else. And the trend in European (football) politics is to more micro-countries.

Can't see the situation changing.

Not Brazil seems to have summarised the situation- no problem, is there?

Yes there is a problem, you don't have to hold a British Passport to be Northern Irish.
FIFA are effectively alienting more Nationalists from the Northern Ireland set up.
Just because someone refuses to take a British passport does not mean they're not proud to be from Northern Ireland.

[Gather round]

Krstic- I read the FIFA decision only after NB's brief point about qualifying.

I then edited out because clearly FIFA's decision is crass and regressive. A British passport should not be needed to play for NI. And players who don't want one shouldn't have to choose between it and playing. Completely crazy.

[Krstic]

Krstic- I read the FIFA decision only after NB's brief point about qualifying.

I then edited out because clearly FIFA's decision is crass and regressive. A British passport should not be needed to play for NI. And players who don't want one shouldn't have to choose between it and playing. Completely crazy.

Too right.

Although something tells me it'll be sorted out.

Either in court or with a simple phone call from Tony Bliar

[John83]

Would a British passport prove eligibility to play for the North? Can someone born in England whose family for 10 generations have been English play for Northern Ireland? My understanding is that they couldn't but they would still have a British passport. :confused: Yes. There was a German(?) player who was in England long enough to get a passport and promptly declared for Wales(?) not so long ago. A goalkeeper, IIRC.

Looks like the new rules stop this though.

[patcorr]

So previous to this new ruling, did this mean that anyone born within the Commonwealth/British Empire was eligible to play for any other country within the same?

[John83]

So previous to this new ruling, did this mean that anyone born within the Commonwealth/British Empire was eligible to play for any other country within the same?
Seems so. Maik Taylor was the guy I was thinking of:

When I became manager of Northern Ireland, I tried everywhere to get new players.
I confided my problems to Kevin Keegan, who was managing Fulham where Maik was his goalkeeper. Kevin reminded me of Maik's situation regarding international football, so I decided to use the Jackie Charlton rule book!
Maik was actually born in Germany (his father was in the Forces) but had a British passport. This qualified him to play for Germany - or any of the home nations.
http://www.thisishampshire.net/hampshire/southampton/sport/SOTON_SPORT_THESAINTS_MCMENEMY12.html

[patcorr]

He was th esame player I had in mind. Did I hear recently of some guy with a Lithuanian sounding name to play for NI or Wales?

[dcfcsteve]

Just thought of something.

As far as I'm aware, Northern Irish people can actually hold both a British and Irish passport at the same time if they want to. Citizenship of neither state requires you to formally give up citizenship entilements to anywhere else (unlike the US, for example)

Maybe a solution for this therefore could be for the players who consider themselves Irish to get a British passport as well as their Irish one - purely to show to UEFA/FIFA officials. They wouldn't even need to travel on it. They would still hold an Irish passport, so would still have full legal and de-facto Irish citizenship.

I can understand Nationalist players not wanting to be forced into taking a British passport instead of an Irish one. But I would hope that most would have no problem with having a British passport as well, particularly if it was a 'badge of convenience' / cosmetic one purely for footballing purposes. I would hope that no-one bar hard-nosed Republicans would have a problem with this - and they probably wouldn't want to play for the dirty North anyway !


So previous to this new ruling, did this mean that anyone born within the Commonwealth/British Empire was eligible to play for any other country within the same?
Not at all - how do you come to that conclusion ? :confused: :eek:

Firstly, there is no longer any such thing as the British Empire, nor has there been for some time.

Secondly, for example - Canada and South Africa are both in the Commonwealth. If you have a Canadian passport you are in no way entitled to play for South Africa, and vice-versa.

This is fairly common sense stuff - I'm shocked you even needed to ask

[David]

Just thought of something.

As far as I'm aware, Northern Irish people can actually hold both a British and Irish passport at the same time if they want to. Citizenship of neither state requires you to formally give up citizenship entilements to anywhere else (unlike the US, for example)

Maybe a solution for this therefore could be for the players who consider themselves Irish to get a British passport as well as their Irish one - purely to show to UEFA/FIFA officials. They wouldn't even need to travel on it. They would still hold an Irish passport, so would still have full legal and de-facto Irish citizenship.

I can understand Nationalist players not wanting to be forced into taking a British passport instead of an Irish one. But I would hope that most would have no problem with having a British passport as well, particularly if it was a 'badge of convenience' / cosmetic one purely for footballing purposes. I would hope that no-one bar hard-nosed Republicans would have a problem with this - and they probably wouldn't want to play for the dirty North anyway !

That is the sensible way around it if FIFA continue to be stupid and dig their heels in.

[Not Brazil]

As far as I'm aware, Northern Irish people can actually hold both a British and Irish passport at the same time if they want to. Citizenship of neither state requires you to formally give up citizenship entilements to anywhere else (unlike the US, for example)

Maybe a solution for this therefore could be for the players who consider themselves Irish to get a British passport as well as their Irish one - purely to show to UEFA/FIFA officials. They wouldn't even need to travel on it. They would still hold an Irish passport, so would still have full legal and de-facto Irish citizenship.

I can understand Nationalist players not wanting to be forced into taking a British passport instead of an Irish one. But I would hope that most would have no problem with having a British passport as well, particularly if it was a 'badge of convenience' / cosmetic one purely for footballing purposes. I would hope that no-one bar hard-nosed Republicans would have a problem with this - and they probably wouldn't want to play for the dirty North anyway !

dcfc,

It's not a question of it being a possible solution, it's the way it is.

The FIFA ruling does not require any Northern Irish player to relinquish their Irish Passport.

It requires all Northern Ireland players to obtain a British Passport for the purposes of FIFA eligibility confirmation only.

A Northern Ireland player can travel on his Irish passport. They will need a British Passport too, for when the FIFA man does his checks.

Given our sensitivities in this part of the world, it's a ****** rule.