NI Passports

[Krstic]

dcfc,

It's not a question of it being a possible solution, it's the way it is.

The FIFA ruling does not require any Northern Irish player to relinquish their Irish Passport.

It requires all Northern Ireland players to obtain a British Passport for the purposes of FIFA eligibility confirmation only.

A Northern Ireland player can travel on his Irish passport. They will need a British Passport too, for when the FIFA man does his checks.

Given our sensitivities in this part of the world, it's a ****** rule.

Exactly.

Although surely some agreement can reached with FIFA and this will not matter.

[Not Brazil]

Exactly.

Although surely some agreement can reached with FIFA and this will not matter.
I sincerely hope so Krstic, but I'm not so sure.:(

This "clarification" from FIFA comes after challenges to the rule were made by the IFA and the Irish Foreign Minister, Dermot Ahern, no less.:eek:

I expect the Irish Foreign Minister to robustly challenge this again.

I would like to think the IFA will not merely meekly accept it either.

And, I would really like to see the British Prime Minister involve himself and put FIFA straight on the intricasies of life in Northern Ireland.

Basically, the rule has the potential to create "unionist only" Northern Ireland representative teams.

That would be lamentable and regressive.

UPDATE:

Wells: IFA may fight FIFA ruling


By Stuart McKinley

26 May 2006
Irish FA Chief Executive Howard Wells is considering the association's next move after FIFA insisted that Northern Ireland players must be in possession of a British Passport.

The world governing body has written to the IFA deeming that only a British Passport - and not an Irish one - will be recognised as qualifying a player to represent Northern Ireland.

Wells had urged FIFA to recognise the status of Northern Ireland citizens as having dual nationality, but his appeals for players to be allowed to use either a British or an Irish passport have failed to gain the desired response.

The letter from FIFA said: "The mere fact that a person may be holding an Irish Republic passport, FIFA has ruled, does not provide conclusive evidence for a match commissioner to know that a player is entitled to represent Northern Ireland.

"FIFA sees no alternative but to require players to hold the passport of the National Association (a British Passport) they are seeking to represent in order to allow the match commissioner to verify their eligibility."

Now Wells is planning discussions with members of the Irish FA executive before an expected further appeal to FIFA.

"We have to sit down and decide where this leaves us," said Wells.

"The main thing to work out is to see if there is any recourse in this issue. What must be remembered is that it is FIFA's ruling, not ours and rather than sit back and accept it from the outset we have asked them to recognise the exceptional circumstances that prevail in Northern Ireland."

It is known that at least one member of the squad that is currently touring the USA isn't in possession of a British Passport and Wells is planning to speak to the individual involved before attempting a resolution to the issue.



Wells to pursue passport issue

Howard Wells last night recognised the difficult position FIFA find themselves in with regards to the Passport issue surrounding the Irish FA.

The association's Chief Executive, however, is refusing to let the matter rest despite receiving clarification from world football's governing body that Northern Ireland players must be in possession of a British Passport.

"This is not what I had expected or hoped for," said Wells.

"FIFA have 209 member countries though and they do have to be careful about setting precedents.

"They have taken a month to respond so that tells me that they have been professional and considered, but I am planning to speak to them again."

Lawrie Sanchez leads his team into action against Romania in Chicago in the early hours of tomorrow morning and he is still expected to be able to field his strongest possible side.

"I have heard nothing from Chief Executive Howard Wells to tell me that a player isn't available," said the IFA's Head of International Affairs David Currie.

"So as far as I'm aware every player in the squad is available for selection"

"We would hope that if the FIFA ruling is supposed to kick in straight away they would look kindly on any player carrying an Irish Passport and would realise that our US Tour started last Friday."

[crc]

Maybe a solution for this therefore could be for the players who consider themselves Irish to get a British passport as well as their Irish one - purely to show to UEFA/FIFA officials.
...
I would hope that no-one bar hard-nosed Republicans would have a problem with this...
Sorry Steve, I'm certainly not a hard-nosed Republican and I wouldn't be at all happy with this 'solution'. Maybe if push came to shove I would agree to it extremely grudgingly, but it is certainly no way to avoid the possibility of (as Not Brazil puts it) creating Unionist only NI representative teams.

I have to say that the IFA and Howard Wells are being pro-active on this issue and should be commended, but it will probably take higher political intervention from Dermot Ahern or Tony Blair before FIFA back down (or a Bosman-style legal challenge).


The letter from FIFA said: "The mere fact that a person may be holding an Irish Republic passport, FIFA has ruled, does not provide conclusive evidence for a match commissioner to know that a player is entitled to represent Northern Ireland"The gross irony here, of course, is that a British passport doesn't provide conclusive evidence that a player is entitled to represent Northern Ireland either.

[Krstic]

Would this whole episode be an attempt by FIFA to force the "Home Nations" into one.
After all, they're one country, ruled by one Government and surely the 4 Associations from one "Nation" situation is an anomoly that happens only in Britain?

Just think that FIFA may have a cunning plan:eek:

[Paddy Ramone]

Would this whole episode be an attempt by FIFA to force the "Home Nations" into one.
After all, they're one country, ruled by one Government and surely the 4 Associations from one "Nation" situation is an anomoly that happens only in Britain?

Just think that FIFA may have a cunning plan:eek:

It could well be. Britain are entering the 2012 Olympics but Scotland are boycotting. The Scottish National Football side provides a way of Scots expressing their identity. If the Scots were forced (except in the case of some hardcore Rangers fans) to except a British side it would lead to a rise in Scottish Nationalist sentiment.

[Speranza]

I don't see Steve's two passport solution as acceptable TBH.

The players affected by this were two City players. They or one of them were told they needed to carry a British passport, they were not told to relenquish their Irish one but they still refused. Is it acceptable for a Nationalist to hold both passports? I think it's the same as a nationalist holding a British passport and I assume the players felt the same.

[Paddy Ramone]

It would be a disaster for Northern Ireland if this results in Nationalists not choosing to play to play for them. A Unionist only team would be crap. They've always needed players from both communities.

Back in in the 40's when the IFA could select palyers from the Free State I think they even picked an Ireland side for the "Home Internationals" where all eleven players were Southerners or Northern Nationalists. It's hard to see to what NI would have achieved without the likes of Pat Jennings and Peter McParland.

[Mr_Parker]

I have to say that the IFA and Howard Wells are being pro-active on this issue and should be commended,
[/u] either.

Firstly, I have not read through this entire thread. Secondly may I point out that the IFA only became pro-active in all this when they were embarassed/shamed into action when the story was first published in the Irish star over a month ago. This has been an issue since 2003, hardly what you could call pro-active. If they had dealt with it then it would not have blown up in their faces.



The gross irony here, of course, is that a British passport doesn't provide conclusive evidence that a player is entitled to represent Northern Ireland either.
Correct. If anything an Irish passport demonstates it better.

[Not Brazil]

Correct. If anything an Irish passport demonstates it better.

No, it doesn't.

On the front of a British Passport, in big gold words, it states:

United Kingdom Of Great Britain & NORTHERN IRELAND

Funnily, the team is known as Northern Ireland.:rolleyes:

[REVIP]

Would this whole episode be an attempt by FIFA to force the "Home Nations" into one.
After all, they're one country, ruled by one Government and surely the 4 Associations from one "Nation" situation is an anomoly that happens only in Britain?

Having four teams from one nation would certainly be anomalous, but given FIFA has twenty or so more members than the UN, there must be other anomalies - Denmark/Faroes comes to mind. I don't think the Faroese autonomy extends any further than that of Scotland

[Mr_Parker]

No, it doesn't.

On the front of a British Passport, in big gold words, it states:

United Kingdom Of Great Britain & NORTHERN IRELAND

Funnily, the team is known as Northern Ireland.:rolleyes:


As posted on ILF a UK passport only shows a 4/1 chance of proving you are eligible wereas an Irish one gives you a 2/1 chance!

A passport alone does not prove your eligibility for a UK Association. :rolleyes:

[CollegeTillIDie]

If FIFA are trying to bring about a single GB/UK team at the same time that Wales , Scotland and Northern Ireland are gaining are greater degree of self determination than has been the case for a while it would be bizarre indeed.
The two passport solution seems to be the only way out of it at present for Northern born Irish citizens who wish to express their Irish nationality.

Dermot Ahern , Minister for Foreign Affairs, seems prepared to push the fact that under the Good Friday Agreement 1998 in an internationally recognized treaty citizens of Northern Ireland have an entitlement to either and both citizenships of GB & NI and the Republic of Ireland. SO forcing one over the other is unfair. As regards flag of convenience, it has been known that some NI politicians in the past did also carry Irish passports , for visits to countries such as the former Eastern Bloc during the Cold War where British passports were frowned upon as the British had a spy network and the Irish Republic did not.

This was their birthright being born on the island of Ireland and I for one have no problem with that.

[dcfcsteve]

I agree with FIFA.:cool:
Some people get what they deserve.:p

Eligible to play for both :rolleyes:, but what real Irish person would want to play for what that represents? & Yes, there's plenty wrong with the 'Free State', but at least it's a country, rather than some unwanted sub-section of Britain.

If the Unionists want a team, would accept begrudgingly;but this should only represent the people who believe in such an outdated piece of colonialism. So, guess they'd be more than happy to sign up to a Brit.passport. & leave the Irish to play for Ireland, wherever they come from on the island!

Ironically guess some 'fudge' will be arrived at & we can all go back to our varying levels of mediocrity.

Before you all get animated again;This is just my personal opinion.
& I don't consider it any sort of wind-up, just because people choose to disagree with me.
After all, I could say the same about my detractors.

Very good Gonzo. You've had your say and your daily axe-grind against Northern Ireland and the Brits.

Now run along - there's a good boy....

[Not Brazil]

Dermot Ahern , Minister for Foreign Affairs, seems prepared to push the fact that under the Good Friday Agreement 1998 in an internationally recognized treaty citizens of Northern Ireland have an entitlement to either and both citizenships of GB & NI and the Republic of Ireland. SO forcing one over the other is unfair.

Dermot Ahern has got some of his facts wrong.

He has claimed that this FIFA rule prohibits Northern Irish players from travelling on Irish passports.

That is totally incorrect.

Nobody will have to relinquish their Irish passport.


I agree with FIFA.:cool:
Some people get what they deserve.:p

Eligible to play for both :rolleyes:, but what real Irish person would want to play for what that represents? & Yes, there's plenty wrong with the 'Free State', but at least it's a country, rather than some unwanted sub-section of Britain.

If the Unionists want a team, would accept begrudgingly;but this should only represent the people who believe in such an outdated piece of colonialism. So, guess they'd be more than happy to sign up to a Brit.passport. & leave the Irish to play for Ireland, wherever they come from on the island!

Ironically guess some 'fudge' will be arrived at & we can all go back to our varying levels of mediocrity.

Before you all get animated again;This is just my personal opinion.
& I don't consider it any sort of wind-up, just because people choose to disagree with me.
After all, I could say the same about my detractors.
I am British and Irish.

It appears that it is you who wants a "unionist only" Northern Ireland team.

Strangely, if I suggested such a thing, I would be labeled bigoted.

Go figure.

Oh, and are these unionist types not the very same people that many claim they wish to be "united" with?

[geysir]

As posted on ILF a UK passport only shows a 4/1 chance of proving you are eligible wereas an Irish one gives you a 2/1 chance!
A passport alone does not prove your eligibility for a UK Association. :rolleyes:
Are the chances of eligibility for NI not in proportion to (passport eligibile) population over age of 16? Therefore the odds against eligibility with a British passport are 10 times longer than with an Irish passport.

[crc]

Strangely, if I suggested such a thing, I would be labeled bigoted.
I think its pretty clear who the bigot is on this thread!

Voila:

Despite having family tangibly from this 'heritage', I despise all it stands for.
...
The vast majority consider themselves British citizens, as they came from that stock. Have no interest in being Irish, which begs the question, why do they stay?

...but what real Irish person would want to play for what that represents? & Yes, there's plenty wrong with the 'Free State', but at least it's a country, rather than some unwanted sub-section of Britain.

If the Unionists want a team, would accept begrudgingly;but this should only represent the people who believe in such an outdated piece of colonialism.

[pól-dcfc]

Yeah right. No such concept. Even Gerry & Ian agree on that one.;)


Don't really wanna get onto this again, but you really are showing your ignorance here. Ian Paisley himself has said numerous times that he considers himself an Irishman. And he considers himself British. You really should stop spouting off about things you clearly know so little about. You come across a bit of a fool.

[pól-dcfc]

How long have you lived in NI? Do you read newspapers? Have you attempted to educate yourself in any way about the situation in the North?

If you have you must be a seriously slow learner. The majority of Unionists in the North believe they are Irish and British. You might not like to think it but it is true. Is it any wonder they don't want to be part of the Republic with complete fúcking idiots like you around?

Read the papers, maybe have a look on http://www.sluggerotoole.com (if they ever fix their database error) and you might realise the reality of the situation in the North. "IKP" as you call him certaintly does consider himself Irish, and although I have minimal respect for the man, I'd tend to trust him on that one. I don't think him calling himself Irish winds up Nationalists at all. In fact I know it doesn't.

Anyway, you seriously need to educate yourself before forming such ridiculous opinions. Barely anything you say on the issue of the North has any resembelence to the reality of the situation.

You're just a keyboard warrior. Get a life.

[pól-dcfc]

Your sentence and argument construction has left me totally bewildered. What the hell are you on about?

Seriously do some reading on Paisley and you will come across numerous quotes from the 1950's right up to fairly recently where he states he is Irish - for example, "I would never repudiate the fact that I am an Irishman," said to the Sunday Life newspaper on June 23rd 1991. Why would he say this "to wind up nationalists"? How does it wind up nationalists? How does he have me duped? I'm fairly sure he still wants to remain part of the UK.

Where and when have you seen Unionism and Nationalism up close? Was it during that wonderful period you attended the Brandywell on a weekly basis to inspect our IRA flags up close? Oh wait, that never happened.

I don't belittle others on here "generally". In fact, the only person I have ever belittled is you, and jesus, you deserve it for the ruibbish you spout. What's more belittling, me pointing out the errors in your feeble arguments, or you telling Unionists that they may not consider themselves Irish?

[crc]

Your sentence and argument construction has left me totally bewildered. What the hell are you on about?

Seriously do some reading on Paisley and you will come across numerous quotes from the 1950's right up to fairly recently where he states he is Irish - for example, "I would never repudiate the fact that I am an Irishman," said to the Sunday Life newspaper on June 23rd 1991. Why would he say this "to wind up nationalists"? How does it wind up nationalists? How does he have me duped? I'm fairly sure he still wants to remain part of the UK.

Where and when have you seen Unionism and Nationalism up close? Was it during that wonderful period you attended the Brandywell on a weekly basis to inspect our IRA flags up close? Oh wait, that never happened.

I don't belittle others on here "generally". In fact, the only person I have ever belittled is you, and jesus, you deserve it for the ruibbish you spout. What's more belittling, me pointing out the errors in your feeble arguments, or you telling Unionists that they may not consider themselves Irish?
well said.

[REVIP]

Ignoring the usual predictable jibes, if you really believe Paisley & his ilk are 'Irish'(& more importantly, them themselves!), then they really have got you fooled. What next, Gerry & co. come out to pledge their allegiance to the old German lady?!

Did you see the BBC Northern Ireland programme about Saint Patrick in March? Paisley spoke at length about his understanding of Patrick's writings and his concern for the spiritual welfare of the Irish people.


It's all about propaganda;Though accept there may be a gradual mood shift towards Unionists being more conducive towards Nats.& what they perceive they represent, which is good & should apply vice versa.

What's about propaganda?

Why would Paisley talk about having an Irish identity as a propaganda exercise? It runs the risk of alienating his own hardline support.


Obviously, you think I know 'nothing', but trust me, I've seen both nationalism & unionism up close.......it ain't pretty or nice.

Where?

What does this mean?

I knew politicians from both traditions in the North, I find it hard to make any sense of your comments.



(What does it matter to you anyway? Try not to belittle others on here generally, :rolleyes: just for expressing an opinion.)
Though I firmly believe the former is the reaction to the latter.
Not that I'm not desperate for it to change. Here's being optimistic;in the meantime expect the unionists to hold on desperately to their totems of citizenship, eg.their passports!

A passport is not a "totem" of citizenship - it's a legal document that defines your citizenship.

[Not Brazil]

Gonzo,

Let me assure you that I am proudly Irish & British.;)

Obviously, not a concept that you find easy to accept.

Perhaps you view me as a second class Irishman?

Perhaps you feel that unionist types are inferior to you?

I've news for you, I am as much an Irishman as you are.

That's something you should really try to deal with, rather than getting bogged down in a myopic and bigoted notion of what constitutes "Irishness"

[Plastic Paddy]

Let me assure you that I am proudly Irish & British.

Do you hold citizenship of both states then?

I'm not fanning the flames - I'm just interested to know.

:ball: PP

[pól-dcfc]

All Nordies can hold citizenship of both the RoI and the UK

[Not Brazil]

Yeah, right.....the latest buzz 'slogan';a contradiction in terms & essentially b*llox. If you want to be one or the other fine. But not into such :rolleyes: conveniently ambiguous 'nationality'.

I'd say different. & not Irish, if you want to be British. No problem with that however.
Though 'inferior' is a bit harsh; would call most unionists deluded, if only for perpetuating past inequality & generally dragging their feet towards any meaningful change.

Hmm. Lose the 'Brit' fixation & might take this view seriously.
As for myopia, would suggest the Unionists not sharing power with democratically elected representatives of substantial minority of indigenous people represents the worst sort of blurred vision!

There is absolutely no contradiction. Very simply, I am proudly Irish & British.

An Englishman is English and British.
A Scotsman is Scottish and British
A Welshman is Welsh and British.

I'm an Irishman, and British.

I am not in any way deluded. I am absolutely clear about who I am and what I am.

My Britishness is not a "fixation". It is a reality.

I am an indigenous Irishman. I was born and bred on the island of Ireland.

I am happy to share power with nationalists. In fact, I would actively welcome it.

Maybe you will listen to me telling you what I am, as oppossed to you telling me what I'm not?:eek:

Oh, and aren't I the type of person that you claim to wish to be "united" with in a 32 county state?:eek:

[Plastic Paddy]

There is absolutely no contradiction. Very simply, I am proudly Irish & British.

I'll ask again since you appear to have missed my question in responding to Gonzo. Do you hold citizenship of both states then?

:ball: PP

[Dodge]

The gross irony here, of course, is that a British passport doesn't provide conclusive evidence that a player is entitled to represent Northern Ireland either.
Just on this. it absolutely does. Anybody with a British passport can represent any of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern ireland lawfully in international football. Its only each federation that has their own eligibility requirements. (see channel islanders Le tissier, Le Saux and trevor Wood :) for examples)

[Not Brazil]

I'll ask again since you appear to have missed my question in responding to Gonzo. Do you hold citizenship of both states then?

:ball: PP

Sorry, I missed your question.

No, I don't.

Whilst I have only a British Passport at present, I have previously travelled on an Irish Passport.

Do Irish Passport holders born and bred in Northern Ireland get to vote in Irish Presidential elections? Do they pay Irish state taxes? Do they contribute in any meaningful way in Dail debates? Do they get a say in Republic Of Ireland affairs? Indeed were they born in THAT state/juristiction?

[Plastic Paddy]

Sorry, I missed your question.

No, I don't.

Whilst I have only a British Passport at present, I have previously travelled on an Irish Passport.

Thanks for your answer. To my mind, that also clarifies your earlier point about the English, Welsh and Scottish who can hold those identities whilst being part of the greater whole that is British. However, given that Ireland enjoys full statehood (whereas the examples you cite do not, merely being constituent parts of the UK), surely logic dictates that someone from Northern Ireland must actively hold Irish citizenship to be considered Irish? Parity of esteem; parity of citizenship, no?


Do Irish Passport holders born and bred in Northern Ireland get to vote in Irish Presidential elections? Do they pay Irish state taxes? Do they contribute in any meaningful way in Dail debates?

Through their representatives British passport holders from NI certainly don't contribute in any meaningful way in Parliamentary debates either; NI MPs being tolerated at best and regarded by most within the Westminster machinery with suspicion and as something of an anachronism (unless crucial votes depend on their co-operation or acquiescence, as happened more than once during John Major's term as Prime Minister). Just watch Peter Snow's map on any election night as the red, blue and yellow unfold everywhere else in the UK whilst the differing shades of green and orange covering NI sit in light relief for at least two days awaiting the results from "the province". You have a completely different electoral system and political paradigm, grafted only onto the British structure purely for the sake of political expediency. Not that I'm in any way questioning its legitimacy; as a pragmatist and a realist I recognise that we are where we are and all together, so to speak, whatever ideological standpoints we each hold as individuals.


Do they get a say in Republic Of Ireland affairs? Indeed were they born in THAT state/juristiction?

Now now, you know that's a spurious line of enquiry. In any case, it's a legitimate (although somewhat antediluvian) argument that, thanks to Articles 2 and 3, anyone born on the island pre-GFA was born in the state (of Ireland). And anyway, I've been paying my taxes to Brenda and her agents all my working life rather than to Bertie and co. but that makes me no less of an Irishman and nor should it those Irish who, by accident of birth, were born in Northern Ireland. And as you well know those same (northern) Irish were denied a say for generations in Northern Ireland affairs through Unionist hegemonic rule. But, like I said earlier, we are where we are. Let's hope for the sake of future generations that a working relationship between all sections of "the community" in Northern Ireland can be forged for the greater good.

:ball: PP

[Not Brazil]

Think you'll find claims to 'British-ness' is restricted to the geographical island of Britain.
& met plenty of Scots & Welsh over the years, only too keen to lose the 'British' tag.;)

So why then contradict yourself?

& Good. Perhaps the unionist community can persuade the DUP to likewise?!

Anyone suggesting I'm not? & if you're Irish (lose the 'Brit' obssession, FFS), great.
My Passport says on the front in big letters "The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

Inside, beside my photograph, under a heading "Nationality", it says "British Citizen".

My place of birth is recored also, and it says "Belfast".

I have not contradicted myself. I am very clear about who and what I am. It is you who is struggling with my identity.

I have little or no time for the DUP. I find their hypocrisy, and their fundamentalist sectarian bigot of a party leader, abhorent.

I do not have a Brit "obsession". I am British. Fact.

I would never dream of insulting a nationalist from Northern Ireland by calling them British. Why do you insult me about my identity?

I am, what I am. Unapologetically and unashamedly.

Plastic Paddy,

" However, given that Ireland enjoys full statehood (whereas the examples you cite do not, merely being constituent parts of the UK), surely logic dictates that someone from Northern Ireland must actively hold Irish citizenship to be considered Irish? Parity of esteem; parity of citizenship, no?"

Being born on the island of Ireland gives me my right to identify Irish. It's as simple as that.


"Through their representatives British passport holders from NI certainly don't contribute in any meaningful way in Parliamentary debates either"

What do you mean by "meaningful way"?

More or less "meaningful" than say the Welsh and Scottish nationalist party MP's?

"Not that I'm in any way questioning its legitimacy; as a pragmatist and a realist I recognise that we are where we are and all together, so to speak, whatever ideological standpoints we each hold as individuals."

Good.

"Now now, you know that's a spurious line of enquiry. In any case, it's a legitimate (although somewhat antediluvian) argument that, thanks to Articles 2 and 3, anyone born on the island pre-GFA was born in the state (of Ireland). And anyway, I've been paying my taxes to Brenda and her agents all my working life rather than to Bertie and co. but that makes me no less of an Irishman and nor should it those Irish who, by accident of birth, were born in Northern Ireland. And as you well know those same (northern) Irish were denied a say for generations in Northern Ireland affairs through Unionist hegemonic rule."

We are what we are by accident of birth. The past has gone. We are trying to build a better future.

And, whatever happens, me and my family will always be proudly Irish and British.


"But, like I said earlier, we are where we are. Let's hope for the sake of future generations that a working relationship between all sections of "the community" in Northern Ireland can be forged for the greater good."

Absolutely.

Better relations will not be forged by nationalists/republicans telling me on one hand that I am a delusioned Irishman, and then on the other denouncing my Irishness.

Me and mine are the British presence in Ireland. "Brits Out" won't work. We're going nowhere. Born and bred on this island. We are here to stay, and we will stay as equals.

Please accept that Irishness is a much broader thing than some myopic folk propogate.

[Plastic Paddy]

Being born on the island of Ireland gives me my right to identify Irish. It's as simple as that.

Of course and I fully respect your right to do so. To my mind though it seems like a declaration of convenience unless one takes it to its logical endpoint, namely the acquisition and retention of citizenship.


What do you mean by "meaningful way"?

For starters, the sponsorship and promotion of Private Member's Bills, attendance and participation in Parliamentary debates and votes, Select Committees and Commissions. I expand on this below.


More or less "meaningful" than say the Welsh and Scottish nationalist party MP's?

That's an interesting analogy, particularly given the separatist angle to the presence of Welsh and Scottish nationalists. I'd expect NI MPs, particularly of the Unionist persuasion, to participate more in Parliamentary process, but in my reasonably frequent attendance in the House of Commons (when they let the hoi-polloi in, that is) I've yet to notice anyone other than IKP make their presence felt. (And yes, I do know that NI representation in the HoC is diluted due to the non-attendance of SF MPs, but that's one for another day).


Better relations will not be forged by nationalists/republicans telling me on one hand that I am a delusioned Irishman, and then on the other denouncing my Irishness.

Enough said.


Me and mine are the British presence in Ireland. "Brits Out" won't work. We're going nowhere. Born and bred on this island. We are here to stay, and we will stay as equals.

Then why not treat the twin aspects of your identity equally by actively pursuing Irish citizenship? ;)


Please accept that Irishness is a much broader thing than some myopic folk propogate.

Indeed, and happy to; after all, as you so well demonstrate, it's not just about the forty shades of green and all that.

I often wonder that, had the version of Irishness promulgated by the Gaelic League and taken up by the IRB and their descendants been more plural and inclusive (and secular!), whether we'd have had the Solemn League and Covenant, Ulster proto-nationalism or even a Northern Ireland. The last hundred years on the auld sod could have been very different, that's for sure.

:ball: PP

[Not Brazil]

Don't deny what you say.

Though now you are saying you are British(& presumably a unionist? Only mention the DUP, as they have the electoral mandate, whether we like it or not.);fine, but please make your mind up, one way or other? :eek:

It's probably more offensive inferring certain people from the North are 'Irish', when not only do they not want to be, but is an insult to those who died for the right to Irish citizenship in the first place!

Think we'll have to disagree about the wording on the Brit.passport
I'm not denying anything. What are you talking about? It's YOU who is in denial about MY identity.

I am proudly Irish and British. What part of that is not sinking in?

My mind is made up about my identity. I am extremely happy and comfortable with my identity. Whatever you declare your identity, I will fully respect that too.

Regarding the wording of my Passport, there's nothing to "disagree" about.

I have told you what it says, verbatim.

That's not open to debate, it's a statement of fact.


Agree with the above point. But the second needs to address the fact that the indigenous population now in the minority, are not even accepted by their unionist contemporaries. I understand the sanctimonious cr*p about 'terrorism', but we all have to draw a line eventually. Maybe one day, the party who represent the majority of the majority will grasp this..........

If they do, maybe it will be easier to accept as 'equals', people who generally subcribe to a somewhat different ethos currently.
What's all this "indigenous population" guff that is espoused primarily by PSF and it's supporters.

I was born on the island. So were my late parents. So where all of my grandparents, as were all of their parents.

Is that "indigenous" enough for you?:rolleyes:

My view is that I am happy to share power with members of the minority population in Northern Ireland. As equals.




I often wonder that, had the version of Irishness promulgated by the Gaelic League and taken up by the IRB and their descendants been more plural and inclusive (and secular!), whether we'd have had the Solemn League and Covenant, Ulster proto-nationalism or even a Northern Ireland. The last hundred years on the auld sod could have been very different, that's for sure.

:ball: PP
Indeed.

There are many dirty hands on the island, and many people throughout history could have done things a lot better.

For my part, I believe that we wouldn't have had thousands of deaths and injuries, copious deep rooted mistrust and a deeply divided people, if certain sections of unionism had of afforded some very basic civil rights to their nationalist neighbours in the late 60's.

Some within unionism are stuck in the past. They haven't realised yet that 45% of the population will not be treated as second class citizens ever again.

I think the penny will drop before long, and that we'll have a full power sharing executive up and running.

The mistreatment of nationalists in Northern Ireland in no way justifies the subsequent "campaign" waged by republicans. A campaign which ultimately has delayed any prospect of a truly "united" Ireland by at least a generation.

[Not Brazil]

There's no such thing, just the terminology of the confused & deluded. Despite what you say;the majority in the North, feel one way or other.

& the wording is somewhat antiquated.......

Some identify as purely Irish.

Some identify as solely British.

Some, like myself, identify as Irish and British.

You don't have to feel "one way or the other". That's a myth. I am both.

Why some unionists are in denial about their "Irishness" is quite beyond me.

That said, all three identities are valid and equally respected.

You should read the GFA.;)

What is antiquated about the wording on my passport?

[Not Brazil]

That's big of you.

At the very least, it's owed as a symbol of respect.

No-one says outsiders should haven't a say in the North;the trouble is their arrogance in not even recognising how they became a majority by default.
If they really wanted to integrate with the locals they could start by apologising for their actions, it's taken them far too long to make the effort;better late than never, I suppose.:(

It's not "big" of me at all. Never mind this "symbol of respect" nonsense, it's the right thing to do, and that why I support power sharing.

Who do you want to apologise to whom?

I can assure you that I make no apology for who or what I am.

[Gather round]

surely logic dictates that someone from Northern Ireland must actively hold Irish citizenship to be considered Irish? Parity of esteem; parity of citizenship, no?

Er, no. NB can quite logically point to life-long residence in Ireland, and his citizenship of a country that includes part of Ireland, without it following that he need seek citizenship of the other part of Ireland. The parity you mention isn’t really relevant, is it?


You have a completely different electoral system and political paradigm

What’s a political paradigm? More simply, we get to vote in British elections, but we don’t get to vote in Irish Republic elections.


but that makes me no less of an Irishman

No-one’s saying you’re any less of an Irishman. But you’re saying (maybe tongue in cheek, I suppose), that effectively I can’t be an Irishman unless I get Dublin citizenship. Isn’t your attitude just as “antediluvian” as Gonzo’s?


I've yet to notice anyone other than IKP make their presence felt

I believe Sylvia Hermon (UUP) is the most frequent NI MP in Westminster votes, at least in the 2001-05 Parliament.


Overall, Gonzo seems to be doing a pretty good job winding up everyone else with his mix of rambling anecdote and Provo-by-numbers rabble-rousing. But it's a bit lazily unrealistic of other nationalists to wring their hands and say 'you'll scare the Prods away'. Like, as if unionists are strongly unionist because of some illiterate stirring it on a message board?

[geysir]

Of course and I fully respect your right to do so. To my mind though it seems like a declaration of convenience unless one takes it to its logical endpoint, namely the acquisition and retention of citizenship.:ball: PP
Isn't it pretty clear that Not Brazil is an Irish citizen. It is his birthright, being born in Ireland. There is nothing for him to acquire or retain, no more or less than anybody born in the 26 counties.
Being born in the 6 counties part allows him more options.

[Plastic Paddy]

Er, no. NB can quite logically point to life-long residence in Ireland, and his citizenship of a country that includes part of Ireland, without it following that he need seek citizenship of the other part of Ireland. The parity you mention isn’t really relevant, is it?

Yes it is. What I was trying to test was the level to which NB was prepared to go to assert his Irishness having stated so clearly that he is Irish and British in equal measure. I'm not doubting his sincerity for a second, but it smacks of pandering to the crowd to hear someone so clearly label both parts of his identity as equal but subsume one completely in the other when it comes to activating citizenship.


What’s a political paradigm?

Construct, system and methodology. The parties you vote for. The way government is organised. The voting systems that are used.


More simply, we get to vote in British elections, but we don’t get to vote in Irish Republic elections.

But it's how you vote and who you vote for, that are so different to anywhere else in the UK, setting you apart politically in such fundamental ways. As I said in a previous post, it's an incongruity born of expediency. But we are where we are; it's where we all go from here that counts now.


No-one’s saying you’re any less of an Irishman.

They might if they heard me speak. ;)


But you’re saying (maybe tongue in cheek, I suppose), that effectively I can’t be an Irishman unless I get Dublin citizenship. Isn’t your attitude just as “antediluvian” as Gonzo’s?

On the surface, yes, but I'm playing devil's advocate (trust me on this). You can't live with your eyes open in a city like London, like I do, and not be moved by the way that so many cultures share, largely civilly, such a confined space. It puts modern Ireland to shame that the people that make up two such similar traditions are still fighting over the minor differences that exist between them, rather than celebrating the commonalities. Maybe our children and theirs will make more headway still in sorting this mess out.


Overall, Gonzo seems to be doing a pretty good job winding up everyone else with his mix of rambling anecdote and Provo-by-numbers rabble-rousing. But it's a bit lazily unrealistic of other nationalists to wring their hands and say 'you'll scare the Prods away'. Like, as if unionists are strongly unionist because of some illiterate stirring it on a message board?

That would be to make the cardinal mistake of defining Unionism exclusively in terms of what is isn't, rather than what it is. Just like viewing NB's Irishness exclusively through a Dublin-centric nationalist prism and forgetting the massive contribution made by Protestantism and more specifically Ulster Protestantism to the economic, social and political development of the island of Ireland and of the two countries that share it. Or indeed viewing his Britishness from a picket line outside a Gaelic ground in Chicago.

:ball: PP

[geysir]

If he has an Irish passport..........
You don't seem to be able to get anything Gonzo.
"Only Irish citizens may obtain an Irish passport"
Passport application form, Note 5 (citizenship).

Citizenship is his birthright. A Passport is every citizens right to have if they so choose after providing evidence, a birthcert etc.

[Not Brazil]

Only because some people(not necessarily posters on here), have their own antiquated position on integration of nationalists into power-sharing in the North.
When the unionists :rolleyes: (inc.The D.U.P.) illustrate otherwise, they will stop being criticised! However, knowing some of their mindset, am highly sceptical there is any great enthusiasm for this.

Broadly I agree with PP, I would like to see an integration of all cultures on the island into a single state.
Wouldn't call it 'rabble-rousing' though;just an alternative opinion from a Protest-ant perspective.........:p
After all, some of us are more enlightened than the usual suspects.;)
You seem not only to have issues with my Irishness, but also the fact that I am a unionist.

Let me put this very simply for you.

I am not a unionist because I want to **** you and other nationalists off, or to deny you anything.

I am a unionist because I feel my best interests, and those of my family, are best served as things stand by being part of the union.

I understand and respect that nationalists don't think that. I am happy to listen to the nationalist side of the story.

The constitutional question has been settled, courtesy of the GFA.

It is absoltutely clear on the subject.

How do you reconcile your hatred of unionists with a proclaimation that you wish to be "united" with them?

Do you really want to be "united" with them?

Are you involved in a Peace Process or a Retribution Process?


If he has an Irish passport..........
I am Irish by birthright.

I was born in Northern Ireland, which forms part of the island of Ireland.

[Strabane_Harp]

so will the IRFU be insisting Ulster players now get an irish passport?

FIFA's decision is a disgrace, i would consider it a great insult for someone to tell me i am a british subject, i was born in ireland making me irish, ive only ever been to britain a few times

[Gather round]

What I was trying to test was the level to which NB was prepared to go to assert his Irishness having stated so clearly that he is Irish and British in equal measure...it smacks of pandering to the crowd to hear someone so clearly label both parts of his identity as equal but subsume one completely in the other when it comes to activating citizenship

The thing is, seeking Republic of Ireland citizenship wouldn't make him, or me, any more Irish because we are already 100% Irish. We are citizens of a country that includes part of Ireland. Now of course not everyone in that country is/ need be Irish, if they come from Swansea, Dundee or Norwich- but we are. It's quite simple and isn't likely to change. NB can be just as Irish not seeking citizenship as you can not living in the Blasket islands.


It puts modern Ireland to shame that the people that make up two such similar traditions are still fighting over the minor differences that exist between them, rather than celebrating the commonalities. Maybe our children and theirs will make more headway still in sorting this mess out

Well, I'm not fighting, just arguing gently. Essentially all that's happening is that you (nationalists, the RoI constitution etc.) are generously offering citizenship, and we're politely declining it. What's the problem? There are wider issues in NI of course, but why assume NB and I are part of them?
On the constitution, try looking at a mirror image of it (a converse paradigm?). If the British state announced that everyone from Moville to Mallow was a British citizen, there'd be outrage: and not all of it exaggerated.

You must realise that some unionists would be offended by such an offer.
There are some aspects of RoI constitution and legislation that I dislike, a lot. The recent restriction on citizenship excluding some Irish-born children is prejudiced, probably racist. I'm already a citizen of one regressive country, so on that issue at least why join another?

And suppose, notionally, that sometime in the future the RoI introduced an equivalent to conscription that caused such waves during the 1914-18 War. Our kids, like yours, might find themselves working/ arguing/ fighting for a cause that means nothing to them. (Of course I'm not suggesting Ireland will become like Israel or Iraq anytime soon, but you can see the principle).


That would be to make the cardinal mistake of defining Unionism exclusively in terms of what is isn't

OK, but my point was basically that many people in RoI, and northern nationalists, do genuinely seem to think that unionists are unionists largely because some on the fringe of nationalism are so extreme in their views. Well, obviously they are in some cases, but otherwise many of us are like the Swedes and Danes, or whoever. Not at war these past hundreds of years, but still self-defining and recognisable as different.


so will the IRFU be insisting Ulster players now get an irish passport?

I think many of them have South African/ Kiwi/ Fijian passports!

[David]

so will the IRFU be insisting Ulster players now get an irish passport?

FIFA's decision is a disgrace, i would consider it a great insult for someone to tell me i am a british subject, i was born in ireland making me irish, ive only ever been to britain a few times

Whilst not agreeing with FIFA's decision you are not comparing like with like. The Ireland rugby team represents two countries under different jurisdictions whereas the Northern Ireland football team only represents one country and that country is under British jurisdiction.

[CollegeTillIDie]

It's a bit ironic that players for an IRISH FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION representative side are prohibited from using Irish passports don't you think?

[crc]

It's a bit ironic that players for an IRISH FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION representative side are prohibited from using Irish passports don't you think?
No. The players are using 'Irish' passports (of sorts), just not 'Irish' passports of the Republic of Ireland. The ones they are using are passports of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


As a follow up to Gather round's eloquent post, you must get past the notion that there is only one conception of Irishness - the conception that many in Ireland (north and south) have successfully convinced themselves (and the rest of the world) that only the Green, Leprechaun, diddly-dee, GAA, republican, etc, version of Irishness is valid.

This is a fallacy. There are many other strands of Irishness (including, but not limited to, the British heritage of some, the Orange tradition, or the emigré community) and unhelpfull too. This is why Paisley can call himself Irish without an ounce of hypocracy, or why Linfield proudly boasted last year that they were 'Champions of Ireland', or why David Healy's goal against England was so fantastic.

FWIW, I am a committed Nationalist, and I would love to see a united Ireland, but the whole thing would be futile if we think that such a united Ireland would ignore the legitimate identity of so many people. Those twits who think that Unionists are just 'Brits on extended holiday' would want to catch themselves on.

[David]

No. The players are using 'Irish' passports (of sorts), just not 'Irish' passports of the Republic of Ireland. The ones they are using are passports of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


As a follow up to Gather round's eloquent post, you must get past the notion that there is only one conception of Irishness - the conception that many in Ireland (north and south) have successfully convinced themselves (and the rest of the world) that only the Green, Leprechaun, diddly-dee, GAA, republican, etc, version of Irishness is valid.

This is a fallacy. There are many other strands of Irishness (including, but not limited to, the British heritage of some, the Orange tradition, or the emigré community) and unhelpfull too. This is why Paisley can call himself Irish without an ounce of hypocracy, or why Linfield proudly boasted last year that they were 'Champions of Ireland', or why David Healy's goal against England was so fantastic.

FWIW, I am a committed Nationalist, and I would love to see a united Ireland, but the whole thing would be futile if we think that such a united Ireland would ignore the legitimate identity of so many people. Those twits who think that Unionists are just 'Brits on extended holiday' would want to catch themselves on.


Excellent post.

[Dassa]

I for one am very proud to be Irish(Northern Irish). It may be a different type to the Irish that many others see as Irish. I was born on this Island and am Irish but have no interest in ROI citizenship. If I was aloud a NI passport I would be one of the first to queue at the passport office. But quess Im living in dream world.

[dcfcsteve]

Very good post. I for one am very proud to be Irish(Northern Irish). It may be a different type to the Irish that many others see as Irish. I was born on this Island and am Irish but have no interest in ROI citizenship. If I was aloud a NI passport I would be one of the first to queue at the passport office. But quess Im living in dream world.

If you'd read the rest of Gonzo's posts on this Dassa, you'd probably be less inclined to agree with him on anything...! :eek:

That's the first coherent one he's managed in weeks.

His others have more accurately resembled a Republican version of Ian Paisley, with all his ranting and raving against "Brits" and "Prods".

Still - at least he seems to have opened his mind somewhat as the debate has progressed, which is to be welcomed.

[geysir]

The big hole in Fifa's ruling appears to be
"The fact that a player holds an Irish Republic passport does not demonstrate conclusively, that he or she is eligible to play for Northern Ireland." On the surface, Maik Taylors's British passport has a 50/1 chance of eligibility.
Is there some reasoning behind Fifa's ruling?
There is no way it would be accepted that a player born in NI, declaring for Ireland would forward a British passport to match officials.
Has the following statement any validity?
"An Irish Republic passport of a player born in Northern Ireland and entitled to Irish and British citizenship in accordance with article 1 paragraph V1 and in connection with the Good Friday Agreement annex 2, does not specify that this person has a birthright to hold British citizenship.

[Dassa]

If you'd read the rest of Gonzo's posts on this Dassa, you'd probably be less inclined to agree with him on anything...! :eek:

That's the first coherent one he's managed in weeks.

His others have more accurately resembled a Republican version of Ian Paisley, with all his ranting and raving against "Brits" and "Prods".

Still - at least he seems to have opened his mind somewhat as the debate has progressed, which is to be welcomed.

My mistake I meant to quote the other statement above it thanks for bringing to my attention my own post steve,feel abit :o meant to quote CRC.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Under the Good Friday Agreement , it is implied that NI people are entitled to use either or. So why doesn't that satisfy FIFA?

Not Brazil

If you are living in this jurisdiction you have every right to select the Irish president should you decide to exercise your franchise on that occasion. Your rights as a born citizen of Ireland can be fully exercised. And you are entitled to use either passport and I voted for the Good Friday Agreement and the COnstitutional Referendum which followed to guarantee that right to you and the other 1.75 million inhabitants of the Wee North .

You are Irish, so is David Ervine and so is Ian Paisley. I have no issue with your "Irishness" what so ever. You are also British and therefore can exercise both citizenships as and when necessary for you.
My problem with the FIFA ruling is that it is diminishing the rights of the players of the Wee North to both forms of citizenship!