Republic of Ireland v England - Saturday, 7th September 2024 - UEFA Nations League

[Trequartista20]

Very, very poor.

As has been pointed out already, prior to the match, several posters pointed out the obvious folly of setting the team up against the might of European Championship Finalists England with only two central midfielders and what would likely happen, and were of course proved 100% right.

It wasn't a 3-4-3 but literally a flat back five, the two 30-something 'wingbacks' predictably lacking the athleticism to get up and down the pitch effectively, nor the tactical and technical nous to move into midfield areas when needed.

Molumby and Smallbone in midfield were, as forecast, completely outmatched and outnumbered by England's three, with TAA often moving into midfield and Kane dropping in there too. The front three, with the possible exception of Ogbene, neither got ahold of the ball in a way that would ease pressure on our defence, nor applied sufficient pressure on ball when England were in possession - the opening goal being symptomatic of that. Idah didn't look fit and didn't even offer physicality.

England didn't even have to work for their win, and that's the most damning indictment; the game being effectively over as a contest well within the first half hour.

Even a lower league side up against PL side in a cup competition will look to be dogged, compact and hardworking, and will often stay in a match for 60-70 minutes before eventually succumbing to superior opposition - and there is no shame in that.

But yesterday's performance was shameful. Having effortlessly wrapped up the game in the first half there was a definite sense of England taking their foot off the gas, almost in pity, in the second. Five tackles and only one completed in 90-plus minutes in a match against England tells it's own story. Pathetic.

[CraftyToePoke]

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/hopefully-i-will-have-more-authority-when-time-goes-on-heimir-hallgrimsson-admits-he-is-still-leaning-on-john-oshea/a1751231119.html

I’m learning as we go,” continued Hallgrimsson. “Hopefully, I will have more authority when time goes on. We are all in it together and for sure I need a lot of help in the first one or two camps, not knowing the characters of the players. I am learning as we go, hopefully I will have more authority when time goes on, but I really like the staff, John and Paddy [McCarthy] have been fantastic, a big support.

"When you come to a new culture, you cannot think you can change everyone - in my case to an Icelandic. You have to adapt to the players, the culture, and what they have been doing and using what is good.

"When you come into an environment and start to change things because you like it in a certain way, you can’t do that. You have to first see what is good and what is bad before you change it. My learning is now to see what is good, what we can change, I would say 95% of what I have seen here is quality.”

[liamoo11]

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/hopefully-i-will-have-more-authority-when-time-goes-on-heimir-hallgrimsson-admits-he-is-still-leaning-on-john-oshea/a1751231119.html

I’m learning as we go,” continued Hallgrimsson. “Hopefully, I will have more authority when time goes on. We are all in it together and for sure I need a lot of help in the first one or two camps, not knowing the characters of the players. I am learning as we go, hopefully I will have more authority when time goes on, but I really like the staff, John and Paddy [McCarthy] have been fantastic, a big support.

"When you come to a new culture, you cannot think you can change everyone - in my case to an Icelandic. You have to adapt to the players, the culture, and what they have been doing and using what is good.

"When you come into an environment and start to change things because you like it in a certain way, you can’t do that. You have to first see what is good and what is bad before you change it. My learning is now to see what is good, what we can change, I would say 95% of what I have seen here is quality.”

Well if 95% of the culture is quality then we really are in trouble

[CraftyToePoke]

Well if 95% of the culture is quality then we really are in trouble

He's clearly an act in haste, repent at leisure aware person. Take a long look, have a good think, a measure three times but cut once type of carpenter as it were. He's culturally unaware and wants to soak it all in, delightful. What he's about to become aware of too is we are among the most deluded but obsessed fanbases in the world and we are numerous, we want to see things being done and we want them, literally, yesterday :)

[Trequartista20]

Alarm bells were ringing for me when O'Shea was kept on, and nothing that has happened since has lessened this initial feeling of unease.

Very clearly, we needed a completely clean break from the demoralising and abject failure of the previous régime, and yet what we are getting is simply a continuation of the Kenny method.

That's when I had to laugh when I saw a handful of rather triumphalist posts and comments from a few of diehard Kenny supporters to the effect of 'how'd you like your back to basics now!?' 'How's that "pragmatism" working out for you?' etc.

What we saw yesterday was a team of the personnel Kenny would have chosen, in system Kenny would have chosen and playing with the the same disorganised, incoherent, undynamic passivity of a team Kenny would have chosen.

Of course I understand that due to the (absolutely typical) incompetence of the FAI, Hallgrimsson was given no friendlies to use as preparation before this extremely difficult fixture against a team rated at number four in the world.

However, he really needs to put his own stamp on the team and have the courage and 'authority' to move on from a failed era and be his own man, even if that means eventually bringing in his own staff.

[texidub]

Have to agree with that. O'Shea might be good for one camp as part of a transition, but HH has to stamp his own mark on the team. HH is undermining himself completely the way he is talking. He's not getting paid to learn how to manage Ireland.. he's getting paid to manage Ireland. Would not be at all sad to see less of O'Shea.

[Eirambler]

That's when I had to laugh when I saw a handful of rather triumphalist posts and comments from a few of diehard Kenny supporters to the effect of 'how'd you like your back to basics now!?' 'How's that "pragmatism" working out for you?' etc.

What we saw yesterday was a team of the personnel Kenny would have chosen, in system Kenny would have chosen and playing with the the same disorganised, incoherent, undynamic passivity of a team Kenny would have chosen.



Was that on Twitter or YBIG or somewhere? I got a bit of a whiff of that off one or two of the tracker pages on twitter alright.

Unfortunately the reality is that there will be a (hopefully small) group of so called Ireland supporters out there now who will actively want Hallgrimsson to fail in order to confirm their own biases on a range of things, from the previous manager, if they backed him right through, to the style of play, if they think the only correct way to play football is through the thirds.

I find it a bit amusing and telling that they were out as early as last night, given that that clearly wasn't a team that was set up by him, but longer term they're best ignored.

[texidub]

Lads will pile in now saying ogbene is a great lad and he was trying more than anyone else he always gives his all and he must be such a positive influence in the squad because he is always happy and he played LOI so he deserves it which just sums up what' we have become. For all those who loved
saying the modern player needs a cuddle so they feel loved to get the best out of them and that Kenny would bring that where o Neill had been lacking in the Barney skills the ireland set up has become cuddle kingdom and we are reaping the rewards of that enlightened culture

Sounds like you need a cuddle, TBH (and in fairness, we all do after yesterday :D ). Ogbene wasn't great but he was the second best Irish player on the pitch, frustrating as he was. FWIW, the BBC player rating had Ogbene as second behind Kelleher. ****e and all as we were that's about right.

[liamoo11]

Sounds like you need a cuddle, TBH. Ogbene wasn't great but he was the second best Irish player on the pitch, frustrating as he was. FWIW, the BBC player rating had Ogbene as second behind Kelleher. ****e and all as we were that's about right.

But that's not right. That's why we are in this situation. If ogbene continues to play as part of a front 3 then we won't be qualifying for any tournament s in that period. But sure he'll get a few cheers and maybe the occasional lad booked so that's grand. If he plays right back or even right wing back we might actually get players on the pitch in positions where they can help us be most effective as a team

[texidub]

But that's not right. That's why we are in this situation. If ogbene continues to play as part of a front 3 then we won't be qualifying for any tournament s in that period. But sure he'll get a few cheers and maybe the occasional lad booked so that's grand. If he plays right back or even right wing back we might actually get players on the pitch in positions where they can help us be most effective as a team

The argument that he should be played in a different position is definitely valid. I was reading what you were saying previously as Ogbene being below standard regardless of where he is played.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought that was an absolutely pitiful performance. Only Kelleher stood in the way of it being like the time Germany walked 6 past us at home under Trap. England didn’t even break sweat.

I’m struggling to see us sticking with 3 CBs and 2 wing backs. Doherty was ineffective but Brady was worse. Absolutely terrible performance from a guy who just shouldn’t have been picked. His passing was dreadful and his set piece delivery (when he wasn’t messing things up with Smallbone) was rubbish too. He even botched up a routine back pass. I feel for him, he has brought us great moments but 2016 was his high water mark, a whole 8 years ago. Great lad, terrible terrible selection. JOS culpable you have to think.

Idah was atrocious. Guehi might as well have been marking me. Idah just couldn’t read the flight of the high balls at all and Guehi saw everything way earlier than Idah did. On the rare occasion Idah managed to edge ahead of him his touch was terrible.

Brady and Idah both lucky to get 2/10 from me.

Doherty left Coleman and the inside channel exposed to Gordon on numerous occasions. As Malachy Clerkin said, you might just forgive that if he was causing trouble going forward. He didn’t.

Everyone else gets a pass from me. Most others tried hard but without any cohesion at all. I’ve heard some criticise Ogbene but at least he was game and managed to find the ball. Never our MOTM (Kelleher by a distance imho) but a useful asset if used well.

It’s hard to see what the new set up brought. No attempt to keep the better bits of Kenny (passing, being generally competitive against good teams) and no signs of the best bits of the Jack/Mick/MON eras - being in the opponent’s faces and being good without the ball. It was closer to Trap, trying to be well positioned without the ball but without putting any pressure on it.

Second half was better when we actually tried to put pressure on the ball and it yielded 2 early chances. Maybe if one had gone in it’d have been different.

HH needs to grow a pair and stamp his ideas on the team for the Greek game. I’d revert to a back 4 - I’d be happy with the 4 CBs as one defensive unit - and drop Doc, Brady, Idah and replace the injured Coleman.

I’m not sure about Smallbone but I think Parrott might deserve a spot instead. Smallbone is starting to look like a luxury player in a team that is unlikely to ever have any luxury. But he gets a pass due to being up against much better players.

Be in Greece’s faces and win the ball back early. Use it however HH wants to use it but tell the players to trust themselves and support each other first and foremost.

We were way too timid. Feeble is how I’d describe that.

What a waste of 8 months or whatever it was.

[Eirambler]

The argument that he should be played in a different position is definitely valid. I was reading what you were saying previously as Ogbene being below standard regardless of where he is played.



I wouldn't have him right back anyway. Right wing back might kind of make sense, but I've already posted my views of the issues of us playing wing backs in general.

The thing is Ogbene himself will want to be playing further forward. His ex Luton teammate Andros Townsend made a comment on the ITV coverage last night that Ogbene himself wouldn't have been too happy with being shoved to wing back because he sees himself as a forward.

Personally I would see his best position as being competing for a second forward position supporting a main striker, say a fully fit Ferguson or Szmodics.

[mark12345]

Anyone that has worked in any professional environment would have to expect that O'Shea formulated the formation, selection, tactics in advance and presented his proposal to Halgrimsson. The fact that the proposal was Doherty and Brady and Coleman down the sides and two midfielders again through the middle concerns me about O'Shea. But I was already concerned. More concerning is that Halgrimsson accepted the proposal and allowed it to be implemented.

Lot of what you say is spot on. Opting for Coleman at right back was a very conservative choice. It might have smacked of John O'Shea opting for his old mate and convincing HH to implement that. The better option for me would have been Dara O'Shea (much stronger and harder to get around and would have added a bit more steel to the defence). Doherty hasn't done anything in years for us and Brady too is past his best. Scales at left back might have been a better option. In reality though we are (yet again, campaign after failed campaign) a million miles away from where we need to be. And that starts with finding a creative midfielder or two and coaching our lads to play the game like England currently do.

[Eirambler]

I thought that was an absolutely pitiful performance. Only Kelleher stood in the way of it being like the time Germany walked 6 past us at home under Trap. England didn’t even break sweat.

I’m struggling to see us sticking with 3 CBs and 2 wing backs. Doherty was ineffective but Brady was worse. Absolutely terrible performance from a guy who just shouldn’t have been picked. His passing was dreadful and his set piece delivery (when he wasn’t messing things up with Smallbone) was rubbish too. He even botched up a routine back pass. I feel for him, he has brought us great moments but 2016 was his high water mark, a whole 8 years ago. Great lad, terrible terrible selection. JOS culpable you have to think.

Idah was atrocious. Guehi might as well have been marking me. Idah just couldn’t read the flight of the high balls at all and Guehi saw everything way earlier than Idah did. On the rare occasion Idah managed to edge ahead of him his touch was terrible.

Brady and Idah both lucky to get 2/10 from me.

Doherty left Coleman and the inside channel exposed to Gordon on numerous occasions. As Malachy Clerkin said, you might just forgive that if he was causing trouble going forward. He didn’t.

Everyone else gets a pass from me. Most others tried hard but without any cohesion at all. I’ve heard some criticise Ogbene but at least he was game and managed to find the ball. Never our MOTM (Kelleher by a distance imho) but a useful asset if used well.

It’s hard to see what the new set up brought. No attempt to keep the better bits of Kenny (passing, being generally competitive against good teams) and no signs of the best bits of the Jack/Mick/MON eras - being in the opponent’s faces and being good without the ball. It was closer to Trap, trying to be well positioned without the ball but without putting any pressure on it.

Second half was better when we actually tried to put pressure on the ball and it yielded 2 early chances. Maybe if one had gone in it’d have been different.

HH needs to grow a pair and stamp his ideas on the team for the Greek game. I’d revert to a back 4 - I’d be happy with the 4 CBs as one defensive unit - and drop Doc, Brady, Idah and replace the injured Coleman.

I’m not sure about Smallbone but I think Parrott might deserve a spot instead. Smallbone is starting to look like a luxury player in a team that is unlikely to ever have any luxury. But he gets a pass due to being up against much better players.

Be in Greece’s faces and win the ball back early. Use it however HH wants to use it but tell the players to trust themselves and support each other first and foremost.

We were way too timid. Feeble is how I’d describe that.

What a waste of 8 months or whatever it was.

I'd agree with almost all of that. Only thing is I wouldn't be too hard on Smallbone just based on last night, he was given no chance at all with the way the team was set up. He was chasing shadows from the off because there was nothing else he could do in a 2 in midfield with just him and Molumby. It's the same reason why I think a lot of Irish supporters massively underrate Cullen right now, they're judging him on games where he has been asked to do the work of two players in the middle of the park which he can't do and it's just straight up unfair to judge him in those circumstances.

[mark12345]

You talk about people perhaps not showing up on Tuesday. You know the best thing that could happen to this team/Irish fans/FAI set up is for no one to show up. It would never happen but if the stadium only had four or five thousand people in it on Tuesday, that would be some statement from the fans. A statement which says, give us something that is watchable, something to get excited about, something we can feel national pride in again, and we'll come back. Otherwise keep on going with your tried and miserably failed methods.

[texidub]

Formations are above my pay grade, TBH. I only know the very basics. He looked like a world beater at times against France. Ultimately though, I'd hope Ogbene would play wherever he's told to play and regardless of his feelings or he should be out of the squad - that's just basic discipline on the maagerial side and professionialism on the player's part.

[liamoo11]

The argument that he should be played in a different position is definitely valid. I was reading what you were saying previously as Ogbene being below standard regardless of where he is played.

For as long as ogbene has been involved for us I've been saying on here that he does not have the skill set to be in a front 3 or God forbid front 2 in international football and his position is as a fullback/wingback. That's where he played for Rotherham at his best and for luton this season

[Eirambler]

I wouldn't agree with that, think it's harsh on him. I think he can do a job further forward as well. He's had good moments playing for an Ireland team that hasn't had many overall.

[mark12345]

I thought that was an absolutely pitiful performance. Only Kelleher stood in the way of it being like the time Germany walked 6 past us at home under Trap. England didn’t even break sweat.

I’m struggling to see us sticking with 3 CBs and 2 wing backs. Doherty was ineffective but Brady was worse. Absolutely terrible performance from a guy who just shouldn’t have been picked. His passing was dreadful and his set piece delivery (when he wasn’t messing things up with Smallbone) was rubbish too. He even botched up a routine back pass. I feel for him, he has brought us great moments but 2016 was his high water mark, a whole 8 years ago. Great lad, terrible terrible selection. JOS culpable you have to think.

Idah was atrocious. Guehi might as well have been marking me. Idah just couldn’t read the flight of the high balls at all and Guehi saw everything way earlier than Idah did. On the rare occasion Idah managed to edge ahead of him his touch was terrible.

Brady and Idah both lucky to get 2/10 from me.

Doherty left Coleman and the inside channel exposed to Gordon on numerous occasions. As Malachy Clerkin said, you might just forgive that if he was causing trouble going forward. He didn’t.

Everyone else gets a pass from me. Most others tried hard but without any cohesion at all. I’ve heard some criticise Ogbene but at least he was game and managed to find the ball. Never our MOTM (Kelleher by a distance imho) but a useful asset if used well.

It’s hard to see what the new set up brought. No attempt to keep the better bits of Kenny (passing, being generally competitive against good teams) and no signs of the best bits of the Jack/Mick/MON eras - being in the opponent’s faces and being good without the ball. It was closer to Trap, trying to be well positioned without the ball but without putting any pressure on it.

Second half was better when we actually tried to put pressure on the ball and it yielded 2 early chances. Maybe if one had gone in it’d have been different.

HH needs to grow a pair and stamp his ideas on the team for the Greek game. I’d revert to a back 4 - I’d be happy with the 4 CBs as one defensive unit - and drop Doc, Brady, Idah and replace the injured Coleman.

I’m not sure about Smallbone but I think Parrott might deserve a spot instead. Smallbone is starting to look like a luxury player in a team that is unlikely to ever have any luxury. But he gets a pass due to being up against much better players.

Be in Greece’s faces and win the ball back early. Use it however HH wants to use it but tell the players to trust themselves and support each other first and foremost.

We were way too timid. Feeble is how I’d describe that.

What a waste of 8 months or whatever it was.

What a waste of 8 months. It has been a lot longer if truth be told. We are a million miles away from where we need to be, no movement of the ball between the lines, no creative player in midfield, and even with a decent goal scorer on board (Szmodics) we find him playing at left back due to the lack of service. It is pretty obvious to me at this point that we (yes, we the fans) are the reason for all of this despair around the Irish team. Why? Because the expectations of us fans of this team are completely unrealistic. We have seen them underperform game after game, yet like crazy people expecting a different outcome, we think the next game will be the one, the one where we will magically turn into a great team. It is not going to happen. The system of football in Ireland (more precisely the system of coaching) is broken. We don't produce creative players, and we don't (apparently) place an emphasis on instilling the finer skills of scoring goals in our youngsters. Until that changes, nothing will change.

[Eirambler]

I'm not having that. We'd all love to see hundreds of millions put into coaching, but it's almost a separate issue to the here and now. When the team is set up as poorly as it was last night we can absolutely ask for better in the short term as well. We have players who are the match of plenty of European teams who are currently ranked higher than us.

[Eirambler]

Presumably we will see callups ahead of Tuesday. At least one anyway with Coleman's injury. That should give us a clue of the direction of travel. Azaz, McGrath and Taylor would be the ones I'd be looking at - all centre midfielders.

[texidub]

Ogbene is the least of our problems. The midfield was completely overwhelmed (not their fault, I thought both played OK inthe circumstances). That was the crux of it.

Maybe it's just disappointment but I have a sense the FAI see the international team as a bit of a jolly. Sure, there'll always be internationals regardless of whether we win or lose - type of thinking. Where is the hunger?

Idah dawdling around like he hit the bong before he got on the team bus. Doherty thinking too much of himself. Brady and Coleman knackered. I thought Jake O'Brien had a bit of bite about him, FWIW. But this is about as hopeless as I've ever felt as an Ireland supporter. I started following during Eoin Hand's reign when qualification for a finals was but a distant dream. Plus ca bleeding change...

[Snapshot]

I'm not having that. We'd all love to see hundreds of millions put into coaching, but it's almost a separate issue to the here and now. When the team is set up as poorly as it was last night we can absolutely ask for better in the short term as well. We have players who are the match of plenty of European teams who are currently ranked higher than us.You believe McGrath, Aziz or Taylor would have made a difference last night? And could sort out the Greeks on Tuesday? No set-up exists that would have changed anything against England such was the vast gulf in class.

[Trequartista20]

Was that on Twitter or YBIG or somewhere? I got a bit of a whiff of that off one or two of the tracker pages on twitter alright.

Mainly on social media. And to be fair, as you say, a definite minority.

I'd be looking to make immediate changes if I were HH.

A reversion to a back four in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 would be a good start, even if it meant putting four centre-halves along the backline. At least it offers a solid defensive base and gets more height and physicality into the team.

Brady's legs went maybe four or five years ago and I would assume the unimaginative O'Shea has him in the team purely because of his alleged dead ball abilities. I would be quickly moving on from him now. He offers virtually nothing, especially at LWB. Coleman and Doherty are still useful squad options, but they should be phased out from the starting xi.

Collins played as a fullback and wingback at Stoke. O'Shea played at left and right back for WBA. Scales played as a LWB at Rovers. Further down the line, Josh Key is a regular at Swansea, Garcia-McNulty played regularly as a LB at Zwolle last season, Gallagher is playing well in MLS. It's time to look at other options.

I would then play two sixes who are tasked with simply sitting in front of the back four Whelan/Andrews style; probably Molumby and Knight, who's playing there for Bristol City. I'm astounded we didn't use the energy of Knight (and/or Browne) from the start against England. Going forward, Lawal should probably be fast-tracked into the seniors asap and Ronan should be properly assessed as a possible option.

I would play a hardworking midfield three in front of them, including obviously Ogbene, Knight/Browne and maybe McAteer. Azaz, Sykes, Johnston McGrath and Moran are all options for future international windows. And assuming Evan isn't fit, I'd have Szmodics or Parrott up front.

I'd like to see us at least more compact, solid and harder to break down against Greece, and to play with more a sight more energy and aggression.

[mark12345]

I'm not having that. We'd all love to see hundreds of millions put into coaching, but it's almost a separate issue to the here and now. When the team is set up as poorly as it was last night we can absolutely ask for better in the short term as well. We have players who are the match of plenty of European teams who are currently ranked higher than us.

That argument doesn't hold water. There's a multitude of other countries, much poorer countries than Ireland, that would not have hundreds of millions to put into coaching but that does not stop them from teaching their kids proper skills, techniques and tactics. Point in case - how long did it take the English players last night to figure out that we could not play proper football? How long- 30 seconds?
When you keep bashing the ball long and back to your opponents it means you have no confidence in your abilities. And by default it increases the confidence of your opponents exponentially.

[pineapple stu]

Going forward, Lawal should probably be fast-tracked into the seniors asap and Ronan should be properly assessed as a possible option.
You want a guy who was relegated from the third tier last year and who hasn't featured yet for Stoke (through injury, granted) to be fast-tracked into the squad, and to assess a guy who's about Jamie McGrath sort of level - decent mid-table SPL, but never shown a sniff of anything better really?

I mean, we can do those things, but I think people need to stop putting them across as actual solutions to our problems at the moment, or even material improvements. There's nobody who's not currently getting in the squad who can really feel aggrieved about it. Certainly nobody who's going to magically make a huge difference.

And I don't mind the Doherty/Coleman/Brady/Stevens quartet being phased out - but I do worry that what comes in instead is going to be worse. Otherwise they'd be in the squad at the moment, and they're not.

[Eirambler]

That argument doesn't hold water. There's a multitude of other countries, much poorer countries than Ireland, that would not have hundreds of millions to put into coaching but that does not stop them from teaching their kids proper skills, techniques and tactics. Point in case - how long did it take the English players last night to figure out that we could not play proper football? How long- 30 seconds?
When you keep bashing the ball long and back to your opponents it means you have no confidence in your abilities. And by default it increases the confidence of your opponents exponentially.

Actually it was identified for them before the game. Carsley correctly predicted that we would be set up poorly in a 3-4-3/5-2-3 so the English players had clear instructions of what to do before they went on the field. He said as much afterwards.

It's not that we can't play, a lot of our players play or have played in the Premier League so clearly we can play. It's that we're being set up to fail game after game. You either get that or you don't. But I suspect you are one of those burn the house down types that would actually like to see us fail. As I said earlier, the type that are best ignored.

[Eirambler]

You believe McGrath, Aziz or Taylor would have made a difference last night? And could sort out the Greeks on Tuesday? No set-up exists that would have changed anything against England such was the vast gulf in class.

The same England that nearly lost to Slovakia at the Euros? Yes, we should be able to at least make them work a bit for a win when we're playing them at home. That should apply to any team we play.

The point about Azaz, McGrath and/or Taylor coming in isn't that they'd start, or necessarily even play. But it would be an acknowledgement that we've once again neglected the centre of the park and are now taking steps to rectify things. That we'd be likely to see at least three of Smallbone, Knight, Molumby and Browne start and therefore will need additional backup on the bench, hence those lads being drafted in as cover.

[rebelmusic]

The Georgian national team is worth €177 million and they showed up to the euros and were very impressive. Take out their keeper and they're worth 132.

The Irish team is worth 180. I know there's caveats here but we are much more capable than last night.

The sorry fact is that this team is used to failure and they've been getting passes for years now. They make stupid mistakes and miss gilt edged opportunities that isn't consistent with their club appearances. More than anything else, they don't trust each other and they are scared sh1tless about making mistakes.

If HH can actually get them functioning as a unit and drop some of bygones like Brady, we should be able to compete a lot better than we have been. We have at least one proven goalscorer, a world class keeper, decent center backs, a few honest journeymen and some promising starlets.

Are we competitive with England? No.
Should we be capable of parking the bus and eeking out a 0-0 against vastly superior opposition? Yes, with the required luck.

Simple fact is that we can be a lot better than this and a lot better than the Kenny era. There is a lot of truth that management has been a major part of the problem now for almost 8 years.

All the above is underscored by the woeful lack of investment in the domestic game.

[geysir]

This is a bit weird.

Has he had John O'Shea forced on him by the FAI and is he trying to get rid of him?

That's not how I read it. Somehow DanMc D has managed to botch Heimir's words for crude effect.
On Heimir's use of the word authority, he's not talking about more authority as in having more power, but an authority that comes with e.g. more knowledge/observation of the players. Afaia, he was the one who asked for Josh, he felt he needed someone who knows the players etc, Josh was an obvious candidate. Heimir has his confidante/assistant, his Icelandic buddy Gudmundur (Gummi).
The main task for Heimir is to decide on his first 11 and get to the 'team that picks itself', something we haven't had for donkeys years.

[Trequartista20]

You want a guy who was relegated from the third tier last year and who hasn't featured yet for Stoke (through injury, granted) to be fast-tracked into the squad, and to assess a guy who's about Jamie McGrath sort of level - decent mid-table SPL, but never shown a sniff of anything better really?

I mean, we can do those things, but I think people need to stop putting them across as actual solutions to our problems at the moment, or even material improvements. There's nobody who's not currently getting in the squad who can really feel aggrieved about it. Certainly nobody who's going to magically make a huge difference.

And I don't mind the Doherty/Coleman/Brady/Stevens quartet being phased out - but I do worry that what comes in instead is going to be worse. Otherwise they'd be in the squad at the moment, and they're not.

My points were about the futility of a continuation of the formation, personnel and playing style of the Kenny era when it has yielded so little in the way of performances or results to justify doing so, and also the need to consider succession planning and adding depth and options to our playing pool in areas of the pitch where we are lacking, or where the current incumbents are ageing and in decline.

I have nowhere suggested that the players i mentioned could and should immediately come into the starting eleven and that this would materially change our fortunes, only that in the positions where we are very obviously deficient in options, ie at fullback/wingback and at six, we should be conducting a proper and thorough appraisal of what is available to us.

Your points seem to be that player selection doesn't matter, that we should disregard the ageing profiles of the fullbacks you mentioned, and that when a coach picks a squad, whoever it is who happens to be in charge at the time, this must definitely represent the best of what we have available of us at that time, no questions asked.

I disagree.

[pineapple stu]

I don't know how you make out i think player selection doesn't matter; it does.

But "fast-tracking" players is meaningless - we've fast-tracked a lot of players lately. Idah, Connolly, Parrott, Bazunu, Omobamidele, Knight, Obafemi for example - all capped before we'd probably have liked, usually out of necessity. Probably some others I've already forgotten. All capped early; some are options now, others aren't. It's not a panacea. There's no point fast-tracking players for the sake of it. They won't magically improve from a few caps - they'll develop at their clubs and from there we can see who's good enough.

Fullback is a huge issue. With Coleman injured, Festy has been called up. And fine - he's probably next in line. Certainly one of the obvious ones along with MacNulty, Manning, etc. But he's been crap on his cameos to date. And that's ultimately my point - if Coleman is playing Premier League and the next best option just isn't up to international level at the moment, should we shoot ourselves in the foot?

Ditto Ronan - do you not think he's been assessed already? He's received senior call-ups after all. But he's been in the Swiss second tier, then at St Mirren, and now he's at one of the worst teams in the MLS. Is he really going to add anything? (Edit - actually Rapids have improved this year. They were 28th of 29 teams last year. They're seventh this year so far)

Yet these are "immediate changes" you reckon the manager should make. I really don't see how they'll change things much. It's deckchairs on the Titanic stuff.

Again, we have big issues in some areas and need new options. I just think they aren't there at the moment, and there's not much point kidding ourselves about that. I think we haven't reached rock bottom as yet unfortunately.

Yet for all that, I do think we need to be doing better than under Kenny. I'm happy to write off yesterday, but I really would like to see some signs of progress on Tuesday. Kenny lost all his games against England, Greece and Finland - if HH does the same I'll be very worried about him

[liamoo11]

Coleman out, Festy in.

Festy and ogbene wingbacks for me if we are to persist with 3 centrehalves, SS or troy off ferguson, smallbone molumby and Knight 3 in midfield

[liamoo11]

I don't know how you make out i think player selection doesn't matter; it does.

But "fast-tracking" players is meaningless - we've fast-tracked a lot of players lately. Idah, Connolly, Parrott, Bazunu, Omobamidele, Knight, Obafemi for example - all capped before we'd probably have liked, usually out of necessity. Probably some others I've already forgotten. All capped early; some are options now, others aren't. It's not a panacea. There's no point fast-tracking players for the sake of it. They won't magically improve from a few caps - they'll develop at their clubs and from there we can see who's good enough.

Fullback is a huge issue. With Coleman injured, Festy has been called up. And fine - he's probably next in line. Certainly one of the obvious ones along with MacNulty, Manning, etc. But he's been crap on his cameos to date. And that's ultimately my point - if Coleman is playing Premier League and the next best option just isn't up to international level at the moment, should we shoot ourselves in the foot?

Ditto Ronan - do you not think he's been assessed already? He's received senior call-ups after all. But he's been in the Swiss second tier, then at St Mirren, and now he's at one of the worst teams in the MLS. Is he really going to add anything? (Edit - actually Rapids have improved this year. They were 28th of 29 teams last year. They're seventh this year so far)

Yet these are "immediate changes" you reckon the manager should make. I really don't see how they'll change things much. It's deckchairs on the Titanic stuff.

Again, we have big issues in some areas and need new options. I just think they aren't there at the moment, and there's not much point kidding ourselves about that. I think we haven't reached rock bottom as yet unfortunately.

Yet for all that, I do think we need to be doing better than under Kenny. I'm happy to write off yesterday, but I really would like to see some signs of progress on Tuesday. Kenny lost all his games against England, Greece and Finland - if HH does the same I'll be very worried about him

Just on festy when he has had a few appearances late in hames for us it's been as a wide player in a front 3 and similiar to ogbene I don't think that is where his strengths lie at the moment. As a wingback left or right his pace and athleticism offers you a chance to get something out of a 3 centre halves situation which doherty and Brady just don't give u cause of their physical limitations.

[Eirambler]

Interesting stuff coming through from HH's press conference over the weekend. He confirmed that O'Shea and McCarthy remain effectively in charge for the Greece game and also the two games next month. Even down to O'Shea taking the pre match press conference for the Greece game, which seemingly has to be taken by the manager. So I guess O'Shea is the manager and HH is a Bobby Robson type consultant for the next three games at least. Sure he might as well let O'Shea take the last two games in November as well while he's at it...



"When we play five at the back, again talking about initiative, sometimes you have three centre-backs against one striker. You need one to step up", he said. "Once they play better together they grow in confidence to take the initiative to say we don't need three players and I'll step into midfield.

"Then if that doesn't happen, the coach needs to change the formation, take one from here and put in there. We have versatile players so could move players around."

The thing is he has clearly worked out a key part of what's wrong with our setup for the last three years. But is apparently going to let O'Shea and McCarthy decide whether they'll fix it or not. It's bizarre.

[ifk101]

Think a bike shelter cost inquiry into HH’s job performance is needed. He’s two months into the job, based on his reported salary that’s €100K+ in pay, and he says maybe he’ll be up to speed on the players at some point in the future. All he has done so far is to fob off responsibility to two “coaches” out of their depth – if he actually looked at the games we have played so far this year he would have seen that. If he did look at those games, and thought it was ok to allow us to play the same way against England, he is taking us for a ride. We have a relatively small pool of international players and yet he needs more time to get to know them (he could with confidence say England has a better group of players now than when Iceland beat them – so up to speed on them but not us?). We’re in real danger of relegation – last thing we need is this passivity in the supposed leadership role. That he allowed Saturday’s game to continue the way it did without doing something questions his authority, ability, understanding and ultimately suitability for the role. And judging by his post match comments, it appears he’s going to allow this to continue against Greece. He needs to show some semblance of personal input for the Greece game. If not, I think he can take a hike and observe somewhere else.

[Stuttgart88]

Ken Early's thoughts matching my own (and several others') here (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/2024/09/09/ken-early-on-ireland-v-england-after-jack-grealish-scored-it-appeared-football-was-just-a-joke-at-irelands-expense/). I've highlighted the bits that resonate most with me.

After Jack Grealish scored, it appeared that football was ultimately just a joke at Ireland’s expense

England dismissed Ireland while producing one of the most one-sided periods of play ever seen at the Aviva Stadium

Sometimes you just have to laugh. When Declan Rice surged through Ireland’s tattered defence with a series of one-twos and teed up Jack Grealish to make it 2-0, it appeared that football is ultimately just a joke at Ireland’s expense.
Has anyone ever enjoyed a match at the Aviva more than Grealish did on Saturday? Lee Carsley – unlike Pep Guardiola and Gareth Southgate – had trusted him to be the central creative hub of his team’s attack. The boos from the Dublin crowd, far from inhibiting him, just made him feel more important and special. Unexpectedly – gloriously – Grealish was the main character again. He hasn’t felt this alive since he was at Aston Villa.

His goal came at the end of a hypnotic three-minute spell in which England completed more than 50 passes and the only Ireland player to touch the ball was Sammie Szmodics, who intercepted a cross and spun to boot a desperate clearance out of play.

That move was itself the culmination of 15 minutes that were possibly the most one-sided ever played at this stadium. Between Rice’s goal in the 11th minute and Grealish’s in the 26th, England played 170 passes, Ireland just 19.

Ireland had signalled their new, more direct approach early on. Caoimhín Kelleher boomed a couple of free kicks deep into England’s half; goal-kicks were taken short but only so that one of the defenders could then hit it long. The first problem was that we had no target man capable of winning these balls: Adam Idah is no Niall Quinn. The second problem was that once England got the ball, it became horribly apparent that Ireland had no means of getting it back.

When Heimir Hallgrímsson’s Iceland beat England at Euro 2016, the English couldn’t play football like this. If you gave them the ball, they would give it back to you. Their midfield that day was Eric Dier, Dele Alli and Wayne Rooney – a centre back and two number 10s. England played 519 passes to Iceland’s 250, and they lost possession 34 times.


The week after England v Iceland, Guardiola started work at Manchester City. Premier League football is now practically a different sport. In Dublin, England played 713 passes to Ireland’s 203, and gave possession away just 14 times. Their players are doing at international level what they do every week for their clubs. As Rice said after Saturday’s game, “a lot of the players that play at City, Liverpool, Arsenal, we play a similar way, so it’s easy to adapt.”

That devastating first half showed how mad it is to fantasise that a return to some kind of Jack Charlton tactics could be effective in today’s international football. Sure, there’s always the slim hope you’ll force a defender into a mistake, but it’s much more likely that you get piggy-in-the-middled. This is why Stephen Kenny believed Ireland had to become a side who knew how to play with the ball.

Put ‘em under pressure football still exists, but now it looks like what Atalanta did to Bayer Leverkusen in the Europa League final last May.

The Italian team pressed man to man all over the pitch. When any Leverkusen player was on the ball there was an Atalanta player hunting him down. Whoever he might pass to would have another Atalanta player hunting him down.

Matching up man to man all over the pitch obviously meant that Atalanta were playing one on one at the back. This defied the conventional wisdom that you should aim to have one more defender than the opposition has attackers. Atalanta accepted that risk as a price worth paying for the ability to enforce their pressure game further up the pitch.

Compare this to what Ireland were trying to do on Saturday. We played a back five, including three centre backs who, most of the time, had nobody to mark. This meant that England had at least two and often three spare players in midfield. They played around the outnumbered Irish midfielders like they were training cones.

Yet the supposed increased defensive solidity brought by the extra defenders was illusory. Trent Alexander-Arnold played a 50-yard pass right through Ireland’s centre for the first goal. “Should never happen, at any level,” said Hallgrímsson.


Maybe it’s time to bin the back five. Yet Hallgrímsson seems reluctant to take any radical step. He humbly admits he doesn’t yet know enough about the players: is there such a thing as being too humble?

When Séamus Coleman was being treated for the injury that forced him off, several Ireland players gathered in front of the dugout for an impromptu timeout. The staff member doing all the talking was Paddy McCarthy, as Hallgrímsson watched on and John O’Shea hovered nearby.

“We’re all in it together,” Hallgrímsson said when asked who had picked the team. “Hopefully I will have maybe more authority as time goes on.” Yet he seems in no hurry to project that authority or to get any particular messages out there. At the time of writing, O’Shea is scheduled to do Monday’s prematch press conference, which is generally always done by the head coach.

Maybe that makes sense for now, since O’Shea and McCarthy effectively picked the squad and are helping to pick the team. But Hallgrímsson was brought in to be a leader. If the present arrangement continues much longer, he risks appearing superfluous.

How long will it take him to get up to speed? He has been in the job for two months and, according to Marc Canham – who yesterday announced he had been promoted to chief football officer at the FAI – he has known since March that he was the number one choice for the job. That’s a lot more thinking time than a new coach typically has before arriving into a job.

Ideally, of course, our new coach could have got to know the squad over a couple of friendlies, but that chance was wasted after Canham took nine months to actually make the appointment. Still, there have been just 41 players called up to Ireland squads over the last 12 months. It really shouldn’t be taking much longer for Hallgrímsson to get the measure of that initial group, and start making the decisions.

[Stuttgart88]

Canham has been promoted? Mother of Jesus.

[Stuttgart88]

We looked like a championship team playing a top 6 team in the 4th Round of the cup and we just got swatted aside. That's charitable. L1 or L2 I'd say. I was actually thinking I've seen more competitive minnows against whales in English cup competitions.

[ifk101]

Even down to O'Shea taking the pre match press conference for the Greece game, which seemingly has to be taken by the manager.


Perhaps a small oversight, but it should be something everyone involved is aware about, and it brings into question attention to details. Whatever is felt about the strength of our playing pool, the overall sense of frustration I have is that we are not maximizing the player pool/ resources available to us. That’s primarily a competency issue on the coaching staff, but maybe there within also lacks an attention to detail. The message from the camp all last week was the shortage of time to work with the squad – yet we play a back 5 which is coaching heavy to get right. And that back 5 looked disjointed and confused from the off. Harry Kane had a free header early on that was a certain goal if on target, but you can see the back 5 was not working in unison for that chance. I think Collins is the intended organiser at the back, but when the ball is played into Kane, Collins is a yard or two deeper than the rest of the back line. (BTW Collins has started the season brightly with Brentford playing in a back 4 – I actually think he positionally struggles (badly) in a back 5, tendency to drop deeper than the rest of the backline (can see that again for Grealish’s goal)).

[Olé Olé]

Perhaps a small oversight, but it should be something everyone involved is aware about, and it brings into question attention to details. Whatever is felt about the strength of our playing pool, the overall sense of frustration I have is that we are not maximizing the player pool/ resources available to us. That’s primarily a competency issue on the coaching staff, but maybe there within also lacks an attention to detail. The message from the camp all last week was the shortage of time to work with the squad – yet we play a back 5 which is coaching heavy to get right. And that back 5 looked disjointed and confused from the off. Harry Kane had a free header early on that was a certain goal if on target, but you can see the back 5 was not working in unison for that chance. I think Collins is the intended organiser at the back, but when the ball is played into Kane, Collins is a yard or two deeper than the rest of the back line. (BTW Collins has started the season brightly with Brentford playing in a back 4 – I actually think he positionally struggles (badly) in a back 5, tendency to drop deeper than the rest of the backline (can see that again for Grealish’s goal)).

Well, the thing is that they have wasted the prep time for the England game working on a back 5. What are the chances that they abandon that in the 2/3 days before the Greece game? Unlikely, I would imagine. And a loss to Greece at home really drains momentum and starves us of a valuable point or 3...

[pineapple stu]

At what stage does Heimir say "I'm the gaffer. The buck stops with me"?
Ah. It appears he's delegated that to O'Shea as well...

'The boss is the boss' - John O'Shea says players know Heimir Hallgrimsson is in charge (https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2024/0909/1469116-the-boss-is-the-boss-players-know-whos-in-charge/)

[BonnieShels]

Ah. It appears he's delegated that to O'Shea as well...

'The boss is the boss' - John O'Shea says players know Heimir Hallgrimsson is in charge (https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2024/0909/1469116-the-boss-is-the-boss-players-know-whos-in-charge/)

When I read that sentence today I despaired.

[BonnieShels]

I haven't really had the wherewithal to even think of the game since I walked out of Lansdowne on Saturday evening, but I don't think I've ever been so bereft and just so sad at a performance from the national team. It was just empty.

Every fear I had pre-game came to fruition.

I had hoped of course; I am a child of the 80s and 90s after all... but my God, that was a low I didn't think we have ever achieved in the 35+ years I have watched us.

Some of our most horrific defeats over the years have at least elicited anger or were frustration-inducing, but this, this just felt different.

[texidub]

I see Our Man in Wembley has left the job, to be replaced by Tuchel. With headlines like "A Dark Day For England" following the appointment of a German to the role I can see why Carsley wouldn't be bothered.

Unfortunately, the English FA may have made a good decision in the long run and England will likely be even more dangerous opponents come November than they were last September.

[Eirambler]

As soon as he said he wasn't going to sing the anthem he might as well have just left then. Losing at home to Greece sealed his fate. I'm surprised he was interested to begin with given his clear dislike of the spotlight, was a bit naive of him to be honest.

[~YTM~]

As soon as he said he wasn't going to sing the anthem he might as well have just left then. Losing at home to Greece sealed his fate. I'm surprised he was interested to begin with given his clear dislike of the spotlight, was a bit naive of him to be honest.

Think there was media reports that he never applied for the job after Southgate stepped down. That he was only gonna be there for the Nations League as interim or for however long it took them to find a replacement.

[tetsujin1979]

According to the official announcement, Carsley will remain in charge for the games in November, with Tuchel taking over in January
https://www.thefa.com/news/2024/oct/16/fa-appoint-thomas-tuchel-as-england-mens-senior-head-coach-20241510

[~YTM~]

If we end up playing England again next year another familiar face will be in the opposition dugout after Anthony Barry was announced as Tuchel's assistant manager.

[tetsujin1979]

Thread locked and archived