Republic of Ireland v England - Saturday, 7th September 2024 - UEFA Nations League

[pineapple stu]

That doesn't really make sense though, if you're not going to address the reasons why we're being outclassed then there's really no point having any management at all, you might as well just let Marc Canham pick the team.
But the main reason we're being outclassed is because of the huge gulf in ability.

That plus we're not helping ourselves being so keen to give the ball away so often - but that's a factor of the gulf in quality. Plus a management decision in terms of the long ball.

Yeah, you can put another (crap) player in midfield but that's going to create more space at the back.. Can we afford that?

I'm not saying there's not something to be said for a change in formation - but the idea it'd make any real difference here is fanciful I think

[Eirambler]

But again, everyone knows there's a standard difference between the two teams. That doesn't need saying really. The whole point of tactically setting up a team is to maximise your abilities and - particularly when there's a gulf in class that you're on the wrong side of - try to limit the difference between the two teams. Otherwise you might as well just play 4-4-2 every game.

Our first half tactics didn't do anything to minimise the differences between the two teams, they actually exacerbated them. Slowly we've been moving towards a better setup as the game has gone on. We don't know for sure but I'm hoping that's an early sign of Hallgrimsson taking over.

The one thing I'll say is thank God they didn't give the job to O'Shea. He clearly hasn't the first clue. Whether HH does or not remains to be seen, but he's been shown a good way not to do things today if nothing else.

[tetsujin1979]

1832475560167002128

[Eirambler]

Kelleher should have been the Irish player of the match. For a man who hasn't played a competitive game yet this season he was excellent.

[brine3]

Would be 5-0 if it wasn't for Kelleher.

Needs to get out of LFC.

[passinginterest]

I’ll take a little solace in that things got better with the changes so maybe that’s a sign of HH starting to take control. Although England were playing walking football most of the second half.

Fair to say that was pretty grim son.

[brine3]

74% vs 26% possession
9 vs 1 shots on target

Grim

[Eirambler]

Well at least there are a few obvious changes that can be made for Greece off the back of that anyway. Longer term I think it's inevitable that we'll switch to a four at the back, but the next game is probably too soon for that, so I'll just work on the basis here that it will still be wing backs, even though we literally don't have anyone that can competently play left wing back to the standard required.

We obviously have to put three in the middle. I don't know how many times we need to learn that lesson at this point, it feels like we've been trying this 3-4-3/5-2-3 nonsense for about three years now. It never works because we get overrun in centre mid every single time.

If we're playing three centre backs then we need three actual centre backs in the positions. Personally I think it's overkill and it's taking away a player that we could use somewhere else. But at least playing three actual centre backs would be better than trying to stick a 35 year old career long full back in there again.

There's no point starting Idah, he's either not fit enough or he's not good enough. Possibly both at the moment. Either start Ferguson, or if he's not fit enough just start Szmodics as your striker. That would have made more sense for tonight's game because he'll cover back as well, Ferguson might make more sense against Greece.

So something like this:

---------------------------Kelleher
----------------Collins O'Shea Scales
Ogbene Molumby Smallbone Knight O'Dowda
------------------Ferguson Szmodics

I've stuck O'Dowda at LWB out of desperation. I don't think he's the answer. I don't think there is one which is why I would play a back four with O'Shea or Scales over there - at least they can defend.

[Snapshot]

Not one of our players would get on the England bench. Listening to part-time Irishman Roy Keane is painful. He has no right to an opinion on any Irish performance good or bad. We were overwhelmed, there’s room for optimism.

[elatedscum]

Awful stuff.

The side we had on after 60 minutes is the side I would have started with.

With Trent dropping centrally, it was 4v2 in midfield and was far too easy. It wasn’t even that Molumby and Smallbone were bad, they were just chasing shadows.You had a striker often dropping back but it was still a man over. Knight coming in, dramatically improved that.

And the other thing was Coleman v Gordon, it was just wasn’t a fair fight. O’Brien’s pace and strength would have and did largely nullify that.

I mentioned both them as reasons I wouldn’t play 4-3-3 and 5-2-3 (not even thinking he’d include Coleman in a central three). The first goal came directly from both those things, Gordon’s run and Trent having too much time centrally.

I find it hard to comprehend how high level professional coaches can’t see that. It’s not easy at all to compete with England but you do your best to limit the ways in which they can beat you.

When we made those changes, there was an immediate difference with the Szmodics chance and the Molumby chance.

The secondary cost of us making those initial lineup mistakes meant that we then couldn’t make the changes we needed to. Ideally, you’d have hooked Szmodics for Parrott, he was knackered and on a booking but we needed 7 changes rather than 5.

Even though Kasey did well, don’t think he’s a wing back but Brady was wrecked and on a booking and they wanted to get Ferguson onto the pitch and make an attacking change. And at least one of the late chances was cause he didn’t track the runner.

Thank **** we have Kelleher, proving once again, he can show up without playing for a few weeks and be near world class.

Finally, I wish people would stop going on that HH should have been in March or June. He was managing Jamaica in an international tournament. The process was a shambles but if the end goal was HH, you weren’t going to get him before this window.

[Eirambler]

I find it hard to comprehend how high level professional coaches can’t see that.

ES I agree with most of what you've written, but I think you're massively overselling John O'Shea and Paddy McCarthy here!

[passinginterest]

Well at least there are a few obvious changes that can be made for Greece off the back of that anyway. Longer term I think it's inevitable that we'll switch to a four at the back, but the next game is probably too soon for that, so I'll just work on the basis here that it will still be wing backs, even though we literally don't have anyone that can competently play left wing back to the standard required.

We obviously have to put three in the middle. I don't know how many times we need to learn that lesson at this point, it feels like we've been trying this 3-4-3/5-2-3 nonsense for about three years now. It never works because we get overrun in centre mid every single time.

If we're playing three centre backs then we need three actual centre backs in the positions. Personally I think it's overkill and it's taking away a player that we could use somewhere else. But at least playing three actual centre backs would be better than trying to stick a 35 year old career long full back in there again.

There's no point starting Idah, he's either not fit enough or he's not good enough. Possibly both at the moment. Either start Ferguson, or if he's not fit enough just start Szmodics as your striker. That would have made more sense for tonight's game because he'll cover back as well, Ferguson might make more sense against Greece.

So something like this:

---------------------------Kelleher
----------------Collins O'Shea Scales
Ogbene Molumby Smallbone Knight O'Dowda
------------------Ferguson Szmodics

I've stuck O'Dowda at LWB out of desperation. I don't think he's the answer. I don't think there is one which is why I would play a back four with O'Shea or Scales over there - at least they can defend.

I think it might be O’Brien ahead of Scales, Browne for Molomby and Parrot rather than Ferguson. But wouldn’t be surprised to see that being the starting shape.

[Eirambler]

You could be right about O'Brien ahead of Scales, given that he came on ahead of him tonight. Re-reading the post I should have put him in. I don't think Parrott is good enough to lead the line yet. Maybe it will come.

[pineapple stu]

But again, everyone knows there's a standard difference between the two teams. That doesn't need saying really. The whole point of tactically setting up a team is to maximise your abilities and - particularly when there's a gulf in class that you're on the wrong side of - try to limit the difference between the two teams. Otherwise you might as well just play 4-4-2 every game.
That's all fine, but I'm not sure it's in the five biggest issues with today.

England are much, much better than us. I think we underestimate the gap here at times. And that feeds into many of our players playing badly today. That's what being worse than someone is

We are desperate for options at fullback or wingback. You've suggested O'Dowda (was it Greece he last played there? And was hauled off?) or O'Shea, acknowledging it's not his main position. We need to replace Coleman/Doherty/Brady - I called them out when I saw the team - but I don't see the replacements being any better

We're desperate for options in centre mid. That's probably why the Collins suggestion gets so much traction. Knight, Molumby and Smallbone - is it a massive improvement?

We were desperate on the ball today. Far too many long balls to absolutely no-one. It was like watching MON again, without any tempo. That was my biggest takeaway tbh. What was our gameplan? How much improvement have we in the tank for Tuesday?

And our crossing was really poor. Didn't HH say he wanted to get balls into the box from out wide? Or was that an analysis of his style on here? Either way, how many didn't beat the first man or were too deep?

We did improve a bit in the second half - but England had switched off by then.

For all that, and acknowledging that this was effectively a nothing game, I'm less optimistic about the group now than before kickoff.

[Eirambler]

We'll have to agree to disagree Stu. Setup is everything for me, the standard difference is a given, but you make the best of what you have. We'll lose games because we're not that good, but no team should leave Lansdowne with a win without feeling like they have had to work hard for it. England didn't have to today because we didn't set up properly to make them at least work for what they got. We just handed it to them.

[liamoo11]

I think changing to a flat back four is the least of our problems here.

We're utterly outclassed and moving someone from centre back to centre mid, and putting someone who doesn't usually play fullback there to fill a gap isn't going to change the core issue

God help us when Brady/Doherty/Coleman retire unless someone comes through and quickly

Edit - and on that note, Coleman goes off injured. Him and Doherty replaced by O'Brien and Knight. How's this work?

I actually thought that worked with ogbene going to his best position wingback. Ogbene snuffed out Gordon with his pace who had been a threat and had the athleticism to give us an out ball wide as he coukd get up and down which poor doherty couldn't. Ogbene even put in a good pull back for the SS chance that looked like the closest we got to scoring. Knight came into midfield and at least shored that up and made us more compact

[Eirambler]

The other thing of note, and of course it's been pointed out multiple times because it's unmissable, is how bad our three 30+ players were today. They're basically done, ready for the scrapheap just like Duffy, Hendrick, McCarthy, Hourihane and everyone else from that generation.

Coleman was the only one with any longevity into his 30s, but he's older than the rest so he looks done now too. A small chance Egan might get over his injuries and climb back into contention, but he probably won't to any great extent and he doesn't actually have that many caps anyway relative to his age.

Most successful teams have quite a few 60+ cappers who still make a big contribution to the team but we now have nothing like that. We don't have a single player with over 40 caps who has anything worthwhile to offer from here on.

[liamoo11]

Let's hope this catastrophic showing will prove to HH that quite a number of these Irish players are just not international standard. It's probably a bit of a wake up call for him anyway,he's probably already pining for Jamaica!!:)
Scales and O'Brien should be playing for a start, Doherty,Smallbone,Maloumby and Brady shouldn't even be in the squad ffs

I thought molumby and smallbone did as well as anyone coukd up against 4 - rice, mainly, grealish and either trent stepping in or kane droping in. . We gave up the middle of the pitch to have a presence out wide in SS and ogbene which is utterly illogical when you know you will regardless of the formation have less of the ball. If u play like that against a team.u expect to dominate cause you want to make the pitch as big as possible in the hope you will drag your opposition.out of the central areas then fair enough bit how was that ever going to be the case against England?

[Nesta99]

I’ll take a little solace in that things got better with the changes so maybe that’s a sign of HH starting to take control. Although England were playing walking football most of the second half.

Fair to say that was pretty grim son.

Im going to take a little solace from the managers postmatch interview not being excruciatingly painful to watch!

[Jolly Red Giant]

Kelleher should have been the Irish player of the match. For a man who hasn't played a competitive game yet this season he was excellent.
Keller has shown once again that he is a top class goalkeeper - and that is why it is going to cost £30m to sign him.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I think Knight and McAteer have to play against Greece

[ltfc_2004]

I just found it totally depressing tonight. We looked like a championship team playing a top 6 team in the 4th Round of the cup and we just got swatted aside.

Ireland are always nasty and hard to play against. Did a single English player even break sweat over Ireland. Even the majority of the crowd lost the will to boo Rice by the end.

Like an eejit I’ll be there on Tuesday but I sense a good few others won’t be there.

[brine3]

Coleman is gone for pace now at fullback, but considering how desperate we are in midfield, and considering his experience, could he not do a job in the centre of the park? Obviously as part of a three man central midfield.

You might laugh, but I'm reminded of how Dwight Yorke played midfield in his mid-thirties, and we stuck Kevin Kilbane there ourselves.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[liamoo11]

Keller has shown once again that he is a top class goalkeeper - and that is why it is going to cost £30m to sign him.

And yet somehow he wasn't man of the match.

[Razors left peg]

Tonight was so bad it made me miss the days when we had no matches and no manager

[pineapple stu]

Chin up RLP - only three days till the next instalment!

[shakermaker1982]

That was grim.

We went with the wrong set up and I suspect O’Shea was to blame. The new manager has only had them for a couple of days so he gets a pass from me (for now). If there is anything about him he’ll hopefully soon suss out that Idah is a waster and we need to move on from the likes of Brady & Doherty.

There was obviously a gulf in class but inferior teams can still pick up the odd freak result if you deny space in the middle of the park & every player works their socks off (take note Idah).

[CraftyToePoke]

Dan McDonnell on X ( this does not read well lads )

https://x.com/McDonnellDan/status/1832498371883413872?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Hallgrimsson repeating afterwards that he's still leaning heavily on John O'Shea and Paddy McCarthy. "I'm learning as we go," he says. "Hopefully I will have more authority when time goes on"

[Razors left peg]

July 10th he was appointed. He's had 2 months to learn the players and he's still relying on JOS.... Ive never seen someone so adverse to taking charge. He's had plenty of time to get up to speed, enough of using other people as a crutch. It comes across as weak.

It makes me genuinely wonder if Hallgrimsson was put there to appease us, while the FAI put the man they really wanted in charge. When Steve O'Donnell was at Pats, Alan Matthew's was listed as manager to get around the badges rules, but everyone knew O'Donnell was in charge. Could the FAI have done similar here, but for PR purposes? It's a stupid theory, but until Hallgrimsson actually starts acting like the fcukin manager it's hard not to think that way

[ltfc_2004]

Just think in November they will have Bellingham, Foden, Palmer and Watkins back !

[Olé Olé]

https://x.com/itvfootball/status/1832481343650857346

I wish these lads didn't trigger me so much. Rice spoke a little better with regards to his grandparents. Why on earth would there be "bad blood" on the side of these lads? I genuinely don't think either of them understand why fans they anger and/or upset Irish fans so much. Grealish definitely doesn't.

Rice spoke also about there being no "animosity" on his side. The lads are really clueless.

Great players. I just wish their Irish caps didn't exist.

[Eirambler]

Dan McDonnell on X ( this does not read well lads )

https://x.com/McDonnellDan/status/1832498371883413872?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Hallgrimsson repeating afterwards that he's still leaning heavily on John O'Shea and Paddy McCarthy. "I'm learning as we go," he says. "Hopefully I will have more authority when time goes on"

McDonnell was a big Kenny supporter so he isn't going to be doing Hallgrimsson any favours. But even still the comments come across as kind of odd.

Time going on needs to be Tuesday in terms of our prospects in this group. Greece won tonight so if we don't get a draw minimum at home to Greece we're already into a two way fight with the Finns to avoid automatic relegation.

[Jolly Red Giant]

And yet somehow he wasn't man of the match.
Ronnie Whelan picked the MOTM from the commentary box and said Kelleher was the best Irish player on the pitch but he was going to pick the only outfield player who offered anything going forward.

[Eirambler]

That's a pretty stupid reason in fairness, if Kelleher is the best Irish player you give it to him. But then again, it's Ronnie Whelan so...

[liamoo11]

Ronnie Whelan picked the MOTM from the commentary box and said Kelleher was the best Irish player on the pitch but he was going to pick the only outfield player who offered anything going forward.

I love ronnie what a player he was but that is a strange call

[Eirambler]

Was looking back at some of the pre-game posts and it's honestly scary that more or less every poster that posted on this thread between the team announcement and kickoff correctly identified problems with the selection (see posts 165-177), but whoever picked the the team couldn't see them.

Even scarier that that person was almost certainly someone who has been working with the team for a year and a half. What is with the insistence of having O'Shea involved in some way with the management of the team? He clearly isn't a tactical coach and isn't able to pick a sensible team or formation, yet it feels like his position as the future manager of the team is being marked out as an inevitability in some quarters. I just don't get it.

After being part of the previous management group, followed by a hugely dispiriting spell as caretaker manager, how much further evidence is needed to show that this is not his calling?!

[Razors left peg]

Can we just not give out an Irish man of the match in situations like that. Give it to the actual best player on the pitch even if it's on opposition. It's such a nonsense

[Razors left peg]

Was looking back at some of the pre-game posts and it's honestly scary that more or less every poster that posted on this thread between the team announcement and kickoff correctly identified problems with the selection (see posts 165-173), but whoever picked the the team couldn't see them.

Even scarier that that person was almost certainly someone who has been working with the team for a year and a half. What is with the insistence of having O'Shea involved in some way with the management of the team? He clearly isn't a tactical coach and isn't able to pick a sensible team or formation, yet it feels like his position as the future manager of the team is being marked out as an inevitability in some quarters. I just don't get it.

After being part of the previous management group, followed by a hugely dispiriting spell as caretaker manager, how much further evidence is needed to show that this is not his calling?!

This post is 100% correct. Gobsh1tes like us should not be able to see things that professional coaching staffs cant, especially such glaring ones. Not one person who has seen any of our games for the last year looked at our set up, especially in midfield and not know what was coming

[CraftyToePoke]

Why not just give it to the best player ?

Ogbene looked embarrassed and that's because it was an embarrassing moment. On Robbie Keanes home debut v Argentina, he was spectacular but I think the Argentinian 10 was given MOTM. In a stadium with plenty people in it who are there to watch the EPL lads anyway today, just give it to the best one because it certainly wasn't any Ireland player. I guess it's more corporate matchday influence creep into the game, some strategist has decided it'll give a better match day experience if an Ireland player always gets it but people aren't stupid. Even the day trippers hoping to get a shirt signed by an EPL hero know full well Ogbene was not man of that match & no amount of forced hype announcement fixes that.

[elatedscum]

In fairness to Ronnie, Kelleher made 3 saves after it had been given and announced in the stadium. Was early, probably about the 86th minute.

Kelleher was already the correct choice but giving it to a keeper in a 2-0 loss is pretty damning.

With those late saves, it became overwhelmingly obvious but you couldnt really take it off Cheo at that point

[Razors left peg]

If we had to give man of the match to an Irish player it should have been to Lee Carsley, if it wasn't for him taking the foot off the pedal by taking off Grealish we'd probably have lost by 5

[brine3]

Dan McDonnell on X ( this does not read well lads )

https://x.com/McDonnellDan/status/1832498371883413872?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcam p%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Hallgrimsson repeating afterwards that he's still leaning heavily on John O'Shea and Paddy McCarthy. "I'm learning as we go," he says. "Hopefully I will have more authority when time goes on"

This is a bit weird.

Has he had John O'Shea forced on him by the FAI and is he trying to get rid of him?

[Bungle]

O'Shea offers nothing imo apart from being a decent man who was a very good player in one of the biggest clubs in the world. That means he probably carries a bit of respect with players - based on playing career that is.
Clearly Paddy McCarthy is very highly rated in the game. Problem is would he stay on if they get O'Shea off the ticket.

Tuesday is the game that shows us more anyway. Even with Jurgen Klopp, we would have struggled against England. Second half I thought we played with a bit more nous by getting more of a presence in midfield. Granted, England took their foot off the gas.

Kelleher showed he is top class. He would be comfortably England number 1. I was in Liverpool last week visiting old mates and my Liverpool supporting friends think the Georgian guy could be an investment by FSG and all think they don't want to sell Kelleher. He will see minutes because Alisson is injured every year. FSG balance the books so would not be shocked if he replaces him next season and they sell Alisson.

That lizzies in a box song was horrible. No fan of the royal family but hated it being sung.

[Acornvilla]

I mentioned this half as a joke a couple of weeks ago, but I do feel like HH has been leaning heavily on the coaching staff because he knew it was going to be a pretty tough start. Wanted to have some ready made excuses in, and I wouldn't blame him for that. My personal expectations were very low and think 2-0 flattered us. The gulf is massive but the 5 at the back has to die. I'm going to try and not judge him until the Nations League is over at the earliest. The bar is set good and low, lets see if and where improvements are.

I know a lot of you have very strong opinions about Kenny here, but one of my big takeaways from the 2 matches against Greece was how much better they felt man for man, It's a good experiment to get to play someone again so soon to compare and see if there's actually anything a different approach will bring, lord I think we need a different shape or we will just surrender midfield again thou.

We also struggled v Finland under the early Kenny reign, although I think that was probably too long ago to really make a decent comparison.

The team has a real lack of maturity and steel, something that will probably only come with time, it has been an issue since we started bringing through so many new caps, and that's my best guess as to why we keep persisting with some of the older guys, no matter how much they are struggling physically. It's probably not the route I'd take, but maybe the alternative is worse. We have a lot of very promising players with plenty international experience that I think we all hoped would be further along than they once looked like they would be, I still think there's plenty of improvement there in individual players, so I feel cautiously optimistic about the medium term squad situation, but it could all go to hell easily enough too.

[texidub]

I expected us to lose 2-0 or thereabouts beforehand. Too much of a gulf in quality and confidence between the teams.

Was not pleased with the performance - it was nothing like the level we saw against France at home not too long ago, but the new fella hasn't had much time to get his views across.

Ogbene was the only player trying to create something in an attacking sense - I don't understand the criticism he gets. Yes his end product was frustrating but without him we'd be worse.

I try not to question player's motiovation, but Doherty plays like he's half-interested. Don't see what his attituide brings to the pitch or the dressingroom.

Kelleher was superb. Knight made a positive difference. Good to see Evan get a little stretch.

We're really in the doldrums... hard to see how we get out of it.

[Olé Olé]

Was looking back at some of the pre-game posts and it's honestly scary that more or less every poster that posted on this thread between the team announcement and kickoff correctly identified problems with the selection (see posts 165-177), but whoever picked the the team couldn't see them.

Even scarier that that person was almost certainly someone who has been working with the team for a year and a half. What is with the insistence of having O'Shea involved in some way with the management of the team? He clearly isn't a tactical coach and isn't able to pick a sensible team or formation, yet it feels like his position as the future manager of the team is being marked out as an inevitability in some quarters. I just don't get it.

After being part of the previous management group, followed by a hugely dispiriting spell as caretaker manager, how much further evidence is needed to show that this is not his calling?!
Anyone that has worked in any professional environment would have to expect that O'Shea formulated the formation, selection, tactics in advance and presented his proposal to Halgrimsson. The fact that the proposal was Doherty and Brady and Coleman down the sides and two midfielders again through the middle concerns me about O'Shea. But I was already concerned. More concerning is that Halgrimsson accepted the proposal and allowed it to be implemented.

[Eirambler]

The only hope is that HH decided to let O'Shea do this one as a kind of free hit, almost purposely taking the pressure off himself for a tough game in that regard. But there can be no such excuses on Tuesday - he's now seen the latest O'Shea disasterclass in the flesh so it needs to be fixed for Greece and O'Shea needs to be sent back to handing out the bibs duties and hopefully learning a few things about football tactics from someone else.

[Snapshot]

The only hope is that HH decided to let O'Shea do this one as a kind of free hit, almost purposely taking the pressure off himself for a tough game in that regard. But there can be no such excuses on Tuesday - he's now seen the latest O'Shea disasterclass in the flesh so it needs to be fixed for Greece and O'Shea needs to be sent back to handing out the bibs duties and hopefully learning a few things about football tactics from someone else.
The hounding of O’Shea is mindless scapegoatism. Mob mentality. Ireland were totally outclassed and you label it an O’Shea disasterclass. You’re a spine looking for a shiver.

[Eirambler]

He's had five games now and he hasn't been able to string a decent selection, formation or performance together. It's just telling it like it is, the man doesn't know what he's doing sadly, neither, it appears, does McCarthy.

[liamoo11]

In fairness to Ronnie, Kelleher made 3 saves after it had been given and announced in the stadium. Was early, probably about the 86th minute.

Kelleher was already the correct choice but giving it to a keeper in a 2-0 loss is pretty damning.

With those late saves, it became overwhelmingly obvious but you couldnt really take it off Cheo at that point

You definitely should. We are treating these irish players like they are under 14s and everyone needs a game and some praise and a chance. That should be done now and players need to have consequences for been woefully below the standard and yet ohbenes consequence was to win MOTM , what a losing we don't care mentality that is. Lads will pile in now saying ogbene is a great lad and he was trying more than anyone else he always gives his all and he must be such a positive influence in the squad because he is always happy and he played LOI so he deserves it which just sums up what' we have become. For all those who loved
saying the modern player needs a cuddle so they feel loved to get the best out of them and that Kenny would bring that where o Neill had been lacking in the Barney skills the ireland set up has become cuddle kingdom and we are reaping the rewards of that enlightened culture