Ukraine V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 14th June 2022 - 2022/23 UEFA Nations League

[Diggs246]

Check out kennys reaction when the horn goes off during his interview with TOD!!!

[tommy_c12000]

[QUOTE Kelleher did ok (remains 3rd choice for me until he starts playing senior club football),

Harsh. He actually put in a faultless performance. What do you expect him to do, score?[/QUOTE]

How is it harsh? He did solid. Made an expected save, and distribution pretty good. Dealt with everything put his way, but had nothing to do in the second half. So yes he did ok, what superlative are you expecting?

He remains 3rd choice for me, again how is this harsh? This isn’t an established keeper with 300 plus senior club appearances. He has minimal club experience and my strong preference is with keepers with more club experience in Bazunu and Travers, until we actually see Kelleher play senior football consistently. He showed a really poor error of judgement in last game and has looked unconvincing dealing with crosses in prior games…something no amount of training can prepare you for, you need to rough and tumble of senior football to gain those nuances.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Collins looks top class. Calm and assured at the back. We should have won that game tonight. Ukraine were done, they looked wrecked. 4 points from these 4 games is a very poor return. It's clear that we have much better players than many were claiming. We need to get a manager in charge who can set them up to win games like tonight and perform better in tournaments.

[pineapple stu]

He showed a really poor error of judgement in last game and has looked unconvincing dealing with crosses
Against Scotland? No he didn't?

Or do you mean the Ukraine goal at home last week? Damien Delaney analysed that on VM and said it there was little enough Kelleher could do. As a centre-back, he blamed the defenders.

I thought Kelleher has looked decent enough under crosses to be honest.

Granted he didn't have a massive amount to do in the four games and there was very little he could do about any of the goals.

[tommy_c12000]

Against Scotland? No he didn't?

Or do you mean the Ukraine goal at home last week? Damien Delaney analysed that on VM and said it there was little enough Kelleher could do. As a centre-back, he blamed the defenders.

I thought Kelleher has looked decent enough under crosses to be honest.

Granted he didn't have a massive amount to do in the four games and there was very little he could do about any of the goals.

I meant the cross vs Ukraine. If a Douglas man says that the Blackrock man wasn’t at fault, and in fact it was a Kerryman and a Derry man at fault instead…that’s good enough for me!

[pineapple stu]

I'm not entirely sure if the last part means you're agreeing with Delaney or not, but I thought it was a detailed analysis from a former Premier League footballer who even showed Duffy's immediate reaction was to blame Hendrick (I think it was), so while you can argue Kelleher was at fault, that should probably start with challenging the points Delaney made in that clip.

The suggestion Kelleher should be behind the two players playing lower-league football has some merit, but I think Kelleher has been quite competent and composed over the four games.

[Insidetherock]

Reasonable result against a tired Ukrainian team. Promising first half. Poor second half. Question marks remain firmly over Kenny. Hopefully Browne at RWB and McClean as a stop gap measure will cease to be during the September window as the talent continues to come through.

Kelleher did ok (remains 3rd choice for me until he starts playing senior club football), O’Shea is classy, Lenihan a real solid option, Collins is going to be world class (aspirational centre back line is Collins, Omobamidele, O’Shea come September), Festy should have replaced Browne at half time, hopefully Molumby will have a strong preseason with WBA he could be a longer term option, Cullen was solid, Parrott and Knight continue to impress - hopefully they will secure good moves in the coming weeks, Hogan not up to much and should not make squad once we are back to full strength and more talent comes through

Why were the Ukrainians "tired".. like why emphasise that in your first line?

Apparently we played their "B" team last week.. and half those players were also rested on Saturday

Like, were they more tired than Josh Cullen? Or Nathan Collins?

Or was this our "B" team, seeing as we were missing Bazunu, Coleman, Egan, Duffy, Doherty, Obafemi.. all likely starters if available?

Why not give the team credit, for those who were there and did play?

Getting a draw away to Ukraine was probably the height of our expectations two weeks ago, and they delivered

[pixiehead]

Collins looks top class. Calm and assured at the back. We should have won that game tonight. Ukraine were done, they looked wrecked. 4 points from these 4 games is a very poor return. It's clear that we have much better players than many were claiming. We need to get a manager in charge who can set them up to win games like tonight and perform better in tournaments.
https://media0.giphy.com/media/BFYLNwlsSNtcc/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b95256382973e3eccc91cdc2a5c81eb7 9ed0c9e6a171&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[tommy_c12000]

I would not agree with Damien’s assessment. Just pointing out Damien is from the same neck of the woods as Caoimhin, which may have biased him, and then uses the “I was a defender card” to strengthen his argument that the centre backs should have dealt with it.

The fact of the matter is, it was a great cross. The awkward one goalies dread. But he should still have gotten across to push it out for a corner… for me he was too stagnant waiting for someone to get a touch, he should have saved it. But yes it was a v tricky cross, and we’ve all seen great goalies been caught out in similar situations.

Contrary to what some may think, I actually want Caoimhin to succeed more so than Travers or Bazunu, from a purely selfish personal standpoint. I have known his family for years and he comes from great stock. I just really want to push him to take control of his career and demand first team football, a la Bazunu. But, I still firmly believe he is behind Travers and Bazunu until he gets consistent senior club experience

[pineapple stu]

Ok, but he's a defender blaming defenders too.

He's shown where the defenders didn't do the job (including two of them falling over each other). He's shown Duffy reacting not to Kelleher, but to Hendrick. I think it's a very detailed and solid analysis.

Anyway, it's going off topic here, so I'll let it be

[ontheotherhand]

What more could kelleher have done? No errors which even when bazunu has played well he has fumbled an effort or mistimed something or raced out of goal at the wrong time . It would take alot more than 10 million to buy kelleher this summer.

Do you think 10m is what City value Bazunu at if they just offered him 45k a week to stay and are demanding a buy back clause if he gets the move he has requested?

[liamoo11]

Harsh. He actually put in a faultless performance. What do you expect him to do, score?

How is it harsh? He did solid. Made an expected save, and distribution pretty good. Dealt with everything put his way, but had nothing to do in the second half. So yes he did ok, what superlative are you expecting?

He remains 3rd choice for me, again how is this harsh? This isn’t an established keeper with 300 plus senior club appearances. He has minimal club experience and my strong preference is with keepers with more club experience in Bazunu and Travers, until we actually see Kelleher play senior football consistently. He showed a really poor error of judgement in last game and has looked unconvincing dealing with crosses in prior games…something no amount of training can prepare you for, you need to rough and tumble of senior football to gain those nuances.[/QUOTE]

What was the error of judgement against Scotland? That goal against Ukraine last week wasn't his fault it was the woeful defensive set up and a wonderful ball in

[tommy_c12000]

Ok, but he's a defender blaming defenders too.

He's shown where the defenders didn't do the job (including two of them falling over each other). He's shown Duffy reacting not to Kelleher, but to Hendrick. I think it's a very detailed and solid analysis.

Anyway, it's going off topic here, so I'll let it be

the goalie debate will rage on in September no doubt, when Bazunu comes back, and Travers starts promisingly on the premier league with Bournemouth (fingers crossed). It’s a great position for us to be in, arguing on which of our 3 talented keepers needs to start. If only we had something similar going on in our LWB position!

[liamoo11]

Do you think 10m is what City value Bazunu at if they just offered him 45k a week to stay and are demanding a buy back clause if he gets the move he has requested?

I think it's what tge market is willing to pay so like any commodity it's not what the seller values it at its what the market is prepared to pay so why aren't there 3 or 4 good level English and European clubs battling it out and pushing that fee higher?

[tommy_c12000]

To Liamoo: Sorry yes, Ukraine goal - 4 games in quick succession has overwhelmed my recall here, apologies! Not sure what’s going on with quote feature…

[tommy_c12000]

Why were the Ukrainians "tired".. like why emphasise that in your first line?

Apparently we played their "B" team last week.. and half those players were also rested on Saturday

Like, were they more tired than Josh Cullen? Or Nathan Collins?

Or was this our "B" team, seeing as we were missing Bazunu, Coleman, Egan, Duffy, Doherty, Obafemi.. all likely starters if available?

Why not give the team credit, for those who were there and did play?

Getting a draw away to Ukraine was probably the height of our expectations two weeks ago, and they delivered

Different mentality I guess. Depends on what you want to settle for.

In the coming months, we are on the cusp of having our best team in several years at our disposal. My critique is keeping the bigger picture in mind in the quest to qualify for the Euros playing football that we can be proud of. These games remain after all friendlies played in the off season, wrapped up with a bow by UEFA and sold as competitive games.

Sorry if I wasn’t blown away with the result or performance, but it was certainly a reasonable result and an improved performance for the past 2 games….as I stated. Ukraine looked pretty tired to me, and right after a devastating playoff loss…perfect time to play them.

[CSAD]

Do you think 10m is what City value Bazunu at if they just offered him 45k a week to stay and are demanding a buy back clause if he gets the move he has requested?

To be fair they are essentially paying 25M to get him back, if they sold him to Southampton without the clause and he did as well as we all hope and expect they might have needed to pay 50+ million for him considering his age and potential. If he turns out to be great I’m sure Man City can live with losing 25 million for him and if he ends up being average well they got a decent buck for him, either way it’s a deal that probably suits City down to the ground.

[ontheotherhand]

I think it's what tge market is willing to pay so like any commodity it's not what the seller values it at its what the market is prepared to pay so why aren't there 3 or 4 good level English and European clubs battling it out and pushing that fee higher?

A buy back clause makes the upfront fee smaller in any deal and in this case Bazunu seems to want to go where he will be first choice, City seem happy that if they are going to lose him they will have an easy route to getting him back and Southampton are getting a keeper for $10m who might net them $30m in a few years. There's been other clubs rumoured to be interested so I suppose someone might come in but this looks like good business for all parties

To be honest it's a bit odd that you brought up Bazunu when the comment you responded to didn't but if transfer value is how we should be picking keepers, how many offers have come in for Kelleher since he finally put himself in the shop window?

[tetsujin1979]

Bit of a random stat about McClean tonight
1536829784239529990

[Bielsa´s irish]

Can Collins play midfield? He scored a Lawrenson toda y!!!!

[Eirambler]

Definitely more good than bad overall and a point is a good outcome given how many players we were missing and how weak a team we had on the field by the end.

Kelleher was really solid again. Did enough for there to be a conversation to be had about who starts in goal in September. For me it's still Bazunu as things stand but by then we'll have seen how (and where) the three of them start the new season and go from there.

Collins was obviously exceptional, I think he'd be wasted at Burnley next season, hopefully he gets a move.

The other two centre backs were really solid also, Lenihan is a great backup option to have and O'Shea did well considering he has been struggling for form since his injury. A good pre season should have him back on track. With Egan and Omobamidele to come back as well there's definitely a question mark as to whether Duffy should continue to be a starter.

Wing backs weren't so great, Browne was obviously out of position and filling a hole. I wonder is that it now for Christie - if Kenny fancies a midfielder over him he'd be as well not to pick him again going forward and try someone like McNamara instead?

McClean was poor defensively again. He got done a few times against Scotland and wasn't punished but it happened again tonight and teams are going to target that area more and more. There's so few other options though, Stevens looked way off the pace and I'm not convinced by Manning - and it doesn't look like management are either. If someone like Adaramola got a run in the Palace first team he could find himself thrown in there very quickly, but realistically we'll have to make the best of it with McClean for another year at least.

Cullen was his usual 8 out of 10, rarely if ever has a bad game. It will be interesting to see where he plays his club football next season.

Molumby has taken Hendrick's spot now I think, he backed up the Scotland performance well tonight.

Knight remains one of our most important players, I have no idea how or why he was dropped against Armenia, it's that kind of decision that still gives me the fear about Kenny.

Parrott was good again and looks like a player that will win a lot of caps for us. His workrate and physical strength has come on massively this season.

Hogan did what you'd expect but looks well below Obafemi in terms of standard. Hopefully Obafemi and Idah are both available for September.

I don't think any of the subs added much and the teamsheet looked really weak by the end. But they did enough to keep it at 1-1 and we finished it out strongly enough, so I can't be too critical.


Probably the big concern now (other than that Kenny might repeat most of his mistakes yet again in September) is the left wing back spot. We really need another option there but I have no idea who in the short term. Longer term it's fingers crossed for Bagan and Adaramola I think, or for someone else unexpected to break through.

[Olé Olé]

Great post. Agree with all of your points.

I think Adaramola will be the man for left back, based on what I have seen of him and Bagan. I'm very unsure on Bagan. Strikes me as a player who would only ever be comfortable at wing back because he needs more space which is not a good indicator of quality for me. Adaramola is a tad young though.

The point about not starting Knight is absolutely spot on - such a silly decision give how well he had been going for us and Derby and what he offers us. Those are the kind if decisions that frustrate me. Similarly, if we had a full squad in September, it wouldn't surprise me to see Obafemi left out or Hendrick ahead of Molumby. Or he could even get the guilts about leaving Ogbene out and revert back to the 3. Hogan almost scored v Scotland, admittedly, but he reverted to his mean tonight which was in line with many peoples' expectations but obviously not Kenny's.

[geysir]

Bit of a random stat about McClean tonight


The important stat is he was poor tonight. But he carries himself well, handled the captaincy with aplomb, he would be ideal if he just had more football quality.

[geysir]

I think Molumby is up there in our most improved player category.

[nigel-harps1954]

Browne exposed at RWB, I would love to see Festy on in his place, less risk IMO given how badly Browne was caught out with simple ball over the top with no pace.


Festy was supposed to be there. Alan Browne still on unfortunately


Browne is disastrous


Hopefully Browne at RWB and McClean as a stop gap measure will cease to be during the September window as the talent continues to come through.

Festy should have replaced Browne at half time


Any opinions on Browne though?

[Insidetherock]

Different mentality I guess. Depends on what you want to settle for.

In the coming months, we are on the cusp of having our best team in several years at our disposal. My critique is keeping the bigger picture in mind in the quest to qualify for the Euros playing football that we can be proud of. These games remain after all friendlies played in the off season, wrapped up with a bow by UEFA and sold as competitive games.

Sorry if I wasn’t blown away with the result or performance, but it was certainly a reasonable result and an improved performance for the past 2 games….as I stated. Ukraine looked pretty tired to me, and right after a devastating playoff loss…perfect time to play them.

These games, are not friendlies. They're competitive games, with a hell of a lot at stake, and a lot of people haven't copped that since the NL started.

1. Had we won this group, we'd have been second seeds for Euro qualifying

2. If we finish bottom of the group, as one of the two worst teams, we end up as fourth seeds in Euro qualifying (so imperative we get at least 3 more points in September)

3. If we'd won the group, we'd be promoted to the A league in 24, and be guarenteed a 2nd seed in WC qualifying, with a chance of being a 1st if we finished in the top ten teams in the A path

4. The A path would guarantee we'd get 2-3 of Europes "big beasts" which would fill the Aviva and generate lots of publicity for Irish football (and sell lots of season tickets)

5. Finishing 2nd in the group, wouls practically guarantee at the very least a play off spot for the Euros if we don't directly qualify

So the games are very far from "friendlies"

[nigel-harps1954]

Still a good chance of finishing second, which would be a good enough return after a poor start. An outside chance of topping the group, with a mad set of results for Ukraine in the Autumn games. Stranger things have happened.

There'll be a lot of what-ifs about this group, but a positive couple of days to end the window at least. A comprehensive victory over Scotland and a competent draw away to a side ranked 20 places above us in the world rankings, with effectively our B side playing, is a big positive to take from it.

[Nesta99]

Is parrot going to turn into one of those really frustrating players

As frustrating as Robbie Keane I hope, for all his goals just wrecked the head at times. I still thin we are on an upward curve. Yes it was a bit LoI in Europe where so much good stuff is undone by one moment of implosion. Maybe its the difference between a top 20 ranked team and where we are in that there isnt the bated breath expectation of some sort of madness at any moment. We are going in the right direction, peaks and troughs for sure, but not the disrupt, nick a goal and hang on of previous management. We've seen Irish football decimated by incompetent governorship, lack of investment, the expensive quick fix and the cheap quick fix. Only thing not done is long term development and so far, starting from scratch its not the worst. Unless we happen to uncover the once in a generation world class player, we can only build an effective team unit.

Not saying people are calling for an end to SK's tenure tonight, but out of interest, if the FAI were to pull the plug, who do people see as another managerial option?

[Nesta99]

Collins was obviously exceptional, I think he'd be wasted at Burnley next season, hopefully he gets a move.

Cullen was his usual 8 out of 10, rarely if ever has a bad game. It will be interesting to see where he plays his club football next season.
.

With Vincent Company leaving Anderlecht for Burnley today it will be interesting to see what either player does especially Cullen. If Company rates him he could be on the move to the championship. Not that sure if it would be a move ye'd want as he is coming along nicely where he is.

[SkStu]

Is Robinson actually carrying a few extra pounds ?

definitely the thought crossed my mind as i was watching him lumbering around. Way off the pace and touch was also brutal at times.

[Razors left peg]

Have a lot of thoughts on the game after finally watching late this evening, but my 2 biggest ones are...

1. I jumped off the Kenny bandwagon too quickly. He's learned a lot in this window and we'll be better for it.

2. Nathan Collins is going to be our best player since Roy. He's incredible. Has everything to play at the very highest level and if Premiership scouts don't have him top of their list of players this summer there is a lot that need firing.

As for everything else Eirambler summed up most of my thoughts nicely

[samhaydenjr]

Harsh. He actually put in a faultless performance. What do you expect him to do, score?

Well Travers scored on his senior debut from 70 yards and then scored an Allisson-esque headed equaliser in the last minute of a cup final, so why not? Kelleher's supposed to be the best with the ball at his feet!

Seriously though, pretty decent performance with a great goal from Collins. Really, he's starting to look like Van Dijk in defence mixed in with Matip-style slaloms forward - it wasn't his first foray deep into the Ukrainian half with the ball at his feet. And big question: given that Paul McGrath played a significant amount of his international career in midfield, could Collins become our greatest centre-half ever? I think this was the first of many immense performances from him.

Second question: is there a case for sacrificing Duffy's aerial prowess, physicality and blocking ability for Lenihan's superior mobility and comfort with the ball at his feet, especially as we are playing out nowadays (see all of Scotland's chances)? I though Lenihan did well tonight and he does like to play a sweeping diagonal ball forward from time-to-time - perfect for somebody like Obafemi to chase?

Final question: is it time to ditch 433 for 532 (or 352, depending on your outlook on life)? I was thinking this at half-time, only for Ukraine to find that gap in the corner behind McClean two minutes into the second.

[Olé Olé]

I think Molumby is up there in our most improved player category.

I actually thought he was much braver last night in terms of where he sought and accepted the ball than v Scotland. I thought he had a good game against Scotland but he shied away from making himself available for the ball in a way that Cullen never does. This was evident in some of our short goal kick **** ups. He looked far more comfortable last night and provided a nice balance to Cullen in how he accepted the ball and aggressively pushed forward. There were a couple of instances of crossed wires with Browne in possession. Stick Doherty right wing back and Molumby would get a serious dig out, like Hendrick benefits from.

Looking forward to seeing how this season pans out for him. Last night implied to me that his ceiling is higher than I would have thought. And he has serious confidence going into it.

[third policeman]

Well Travers scored on his senior debut from 70 yards and then scored an Allisson-esque headed equaliser in the last minute of a cup final, so why not? Kelleher's supposed to be the best with the ball at his feet!

Seriously though, pretty decent performance with a great goal from Collins. Really, he's starting to look like Van Dijk in defence mixed in with Matip-style slaloms forward - it wasn't his first foray deep into the Ukrainian half with the ball at his feet. And big question: given that Paul McGrath played a significant amount of his international career in midfield, could Collins become our greatest centre-half ever? I think this was the first of many immense performances from him.

Second question: is there a case for sacrificing Duffy's aerial prowess, physicality and blocking ability for Lenihan's superior mobility and comfort with the ball at his feet, especially as we are playing out nowadays (see all of Scotland's chances)? I though Lenihan did well tonight and he does like to play a sweeping diagonal ball forward from time-to-time - perfect for somebody like Obafemi to chase?

Final question: is it time to ditch 433 for 532 (or 352, depending on your outlook on life)? I was thinking this at half-time, only for Ukraine to find that gap in the corner behind McClean two minutes into the second.

I’d honestly rate Duffy as a fifth choice CB going forward. Egan, Collins, Omabamidele and O’Shea all look better suited to our style.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Should have won that game, maybe would have with some better forward options on the field. The goal conceded was infuriating, but I did think the response was good, and it was also good that we didn't retreat into ourselves in the last 10 minutes.

We've been here before though, with terrible results followed by better results and then we use words like "progression" and "green shoots" and then it all falls apart again at the start of the next window. We've gotten four points from 12 in a group that the manager set his stall out to top, and as I said in the other thread I am really wary of the moving goalposts that seem to be a recurring thing with Kenny. I don't really have anymore confidence in him to maintain the kind of performances we saw in the last two games. He's saved his job with those results I'd imagine - again - but I still don't think he's the right person to be in charge.

[zero]

I've seen enough in the past couple of games to state with some confidence that this idea that we 'don't have the players' is largely nonsense. It's a very frustrating way of thinking - what's the point in even playing at all?

We absolutely have the squad to be competitive as has been demonstrated several times by now. I'd like to think we've learnt from the slow starts in the last two campaigns. A strong finish to this one could see us secure a playoff spot before qualifying proper begins which illustrates one of the benefits in remaining in league B.

Hopefully we'll stick with the 2 up front or at the very least have that as an option to quickly switch to if things are not going to plan.

[Eirambler]

2. If we finish bottom of the group, as one of the two worst teams, we end up as fourth seeds in Euro qualifying (so imperative we get at least 3 more points in September)


It's just a small clarification, but we can't end up as fourth seeds no matter what happens. There are 32 teams in the A and B divisions, but Germany qualify automatically and Russia have been booted out. So the worst ranked B division team will be ranked 30th for the qualifiers, which still makes them third seeds. So, even if Armenia don't get another point they'll still be third seeds as well.

[pineapple stu]

Interestingly, relegation means that there'll be some fourth seeds you really want to avoid and who are stronger than the third seeds. Turkey would be an obvious one. Greece seem to have got their act together and are the only side in the entire Nations League who are already promoted. Slovakia wouldn't be nice as a fourth seed either, and nor would Russia (if they're not still suspended). You'd take Armenia or Albania (third seeds) ahead of any of those.

And as it stands, England and France are second seeds. So you could have Spain, France, Ireland, Turkey, Bulgaria as a group, or you could have Hungary, Bosnia, Ireland, Luxembourg, Gibraltar and San Marino.

Though those kind of pitfalls are usually the way with qualifying groups.

[geysir]

It's just a small clarification, but we can't end up as fourth seeds no matter what happens. There are 32 teams in the A and B divisions, but Germany qualify automatically and Russia have been booted out. So the worst ranked B division team will be ranked 30th for the qualifiers, which still makes them third seeds. So, even if Armenia don't get another point they'll still be third seeds as well.

Seeing as you have checked it out (saves me the hassle), do the promoted teams from league C not replace the relegated teams from league B in the rankings for the euro qual 2024 draw?

edit - most probably not

[pineapple stu]

Not according to wiki anyway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022%E2%80%9323_UEFA_Nations_League#Overall_rankin g).

[tetsujin1979]

Am I reading that right - no league B team can be seeded first, but a League A team who finishes outside the top ten in that table will be seeded second?

[pineapple stu]

Seems to be right (although Czech Republic in eleventh are a top seed at the moment because Germany won't be in qualifying)

Seems to be straightforward 1-11 are the top seeds, 12-21 are second, 22-31 are third, 32-41 are fourth, 42-51 are fifth, and the others are sixth.

[liamoo11]

I actually thought he was much braver last night in terms of where he sought and accepted the ball than v Scotland. I thought he had a good game against Scotland but he shied away from making himself available for the ball in a way that Cullen never does. This was evident in some of our short goal kick **** ups. He looked far more comfortable last night and provided a nice balance to Cullen in how he accepted the ball and aggressively pushed forward. There were a couple of instances of crossed wires with Browne in possession. Stick Doherty right wing back and Molumby would get a serious dig out, like Hendrick benefits from.

Looking forward to seeing how this season pans out for him. Last night implied to me that his ceiling is higher than I would have thought. And he has serious confidence going into it.

I agree pn this. His passing was very crisp and forward looking last night while against Scotland he seemed to be intentionally turning down the option to pass forward in favor of the safe option. Seems to have totally ditched the headless chicken stuff which is kinda remarkable.

[geysir]

Not according to wiki anyway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022%E2%80%9323_UEFA_Nations_League#Overall_rankin g).
I've said it before but this development of the Nations League structure is just pure genius and standing the test of the time.

As well as doing away with friendlies, except for the most useless.

[paul_oshea]

A bit late to the game on this one so to speak. Think most things have been covered.

Willing on this occasion to give kenny the benefit of the doubt with the subs, but if Collins and Cullen played the most outfield minutes why did kenny take off Molumby and Knight? This led to us getting very lethargic and slowing it down in midfield and also lots of wrong options. We started doing what we did in the games against Armenia and Ukraine home and kept passing out to the wings. Then crosses not beating the first man. Mostly high balls with no one to aim for in the box anyway. It became frustrating. MClean couldn't kick the ball nevermind run, why wasnt he brought off and that was with 15 minutes remaining? I am still very concerned about the substitutions and the general game management. We seem to give ourselves a mountain to climb before we've even started walking. Lots still there that Kenny hasn't proved he knows is happening in front of him and how to fix it - sometimes hes the making of it.

I'm also quite concerned about Kenny and his camps, I feel like he settles at the end of a window, brings one or two new faces in and then changes what his strongest 11 is and we end up back at square one, which is poor start, panic stations, dont score and we're out of the running before it even begins.

I wonder what Ukraine thought of the 1-1 I'd say happy to just have the game over with no big deal but we were getting very excited about things.

That said the first half was great, we didn't press all the time unnecessarily and kept our shape great, ensuring if one went the rest stayed so they didnt pull us apart like they'd done in the first game. If we produced 90 mins like the 45 mins that first half I'd be happy.

[Stuttgart88]

Against Scotland? No he didn't?

Or do you mean the Ukraine goal at home last week? Damien Delaney analysed that on VM and said it there was little enough Kelleher could do. As a centre-back, he blamed the defenders.

Dave Henderson also analysed it. A goalkeeper criticised the goalkeeper! But Kelleher did fine. Good window for him all things considered. I'd still just about prefer Bazunu but I'm happy with our options. Bazunu, Keller, Travers in that order for me.

[Stuttgart88]

is there a case for sacrificing Duffy's aerial prowess, physicality and blocking ability for Lenihan's superior mobility and comfort with the ball at his feet, especially as we are playing out nowadays (see all of Scotland's chances)?

Final question: is it time to ditch 433 for 532 (or 352, depending on your outlook on life)? I was thinking this at half-time, only for Ukraine to find that gap in the corner behind McClean two minutes into the second.

Yes wrt Duffy. My recollection from his rare appearances under other managers is that Lenihan is a good attacking header of a ball too though.

Possibly wrt formation. Any good team will eye that channel between wing back and CB.

[Stuttgart88]

I watched the game in an Irish bar in Spain as I was away with work. Really enjoyed it. I felt we could be in for an uncomfortable night from the start but I thought we were competitive and quite accomplished all night. In my first ten years or so on this forum I'd bemoan how we never sought to engage good teams away from home in a good honest football match. That's exactly what we did on Tuesday and it was great to behold. It's also about as good a collective central midfield performance I've seen from us since isolated games in Paris (France in 2009, Sweden 2016). If we can continue to play like this we'll get much better results. Cullen is just fantastic imho, so brave on the ball.

I think Gary Breen in the Indo (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/ireland-now-have-a-squad-that-can-be-frequently-competitive-41765309.html) (paywall) was very telling. He was a firm Kenny sceptic for a long time but he seems won over on the back of the last two games and says that despite only 4 points from 12 this has actually been a very productive NL window. I'd actually agree. Of course the points haul is disappointing - although it's our best ever - but the team appears to be just a lot better than at the start of the window and we have learnt a lot.

As said above though, it'd be unbearably frustrating if we had another backward step soon but I'll take an optimistic view and think it won't happen. Scotland away will be tough but I doubt we'll be lame.

I'd be wary of assuming Obafemi will be available all the time though with his proneness to muscle injuries.

[Insidetherock]

I watched the game in an Irish bar in Spain as I was away with work. Really enjoyed it. I felt we could be in for an uncomfortable night from the start but I thought we were competitive and quite accomplished all night. In my first ten years or so on this forum I'd bemoan how we never sought to engage good teams away from home in a good honest football match. That's exactly what we did on Tuesday and it was great to behold. It's also about as good a collective central midfield performance I've seen from us since isolated games in Paris (France in 2009, Sweden 2016). If we can continue to play like this we'll get much better results. Cullen is just fantastic imho, so brave on the ball.

I think Gary Breen in the Indo (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/ireland-now-have-a-squad-that-can-be-frequently-competitive-41765309.html) (paywall) was very telling. He was a firm Kenny sceptic for a long time but he seems won over on the back of the last two games and says that despite only 4 points from 12 this has actually been a very productive NL window. I'd actually agree. Of course the points haul is disappointing - although it's our best ever - but the team appears to be just a lot better than at the start of the window and we have learnt a lot.

As said above though, it'd be unbearably frustrating if we had another backward step soon but I'll take an optimistic view and think it won't happen. Scotland away will be tough but I doubt we'll be lame.

I'd be wary of assuming Obafemi will be available all the time though with his proneness to muscle injuries.

All you can do is hope with Obafemi.. but no doubt Swansea will be looking after him too as they want a fit and ready Obafemi every week, not just every few months like Ireland do

Way way back long ago, after the WC losses in the first few games, I said that before Ireland would have to play a potential play off for Euro 24, they'd nearly 24-28 games to get it right.

(6 WC, 6 NL's, 8-10 EQ's, and 4-6 friendlies)

I've cheered Kenny on.. and pulled my hair out screaming at him. He's taken forward steps, and backward steps. Things worked, and things went awry.

But if anyone thinks we're not in a better place right now, than we were 3 1/2 yrs ago, they either haven't a clue, or are simply lying to themselves.

There must be very few international teams in Europe, or globally, relying on so many young players. But those players will grow up.

We're potentially looking at 3 PL playing keepers.

Collins should be playing CB this season, and Omobomidele, O Shea, Lenihan, will all be operating (or should be), at the higher levels of the Championship, potentially playing PL next season at relatively young ages.

Doherty, back fully fit, should be back playing regularly in the PL.

Midfield.. we need to strengthen the area at the highest levels.. but there is potential there too. Even beyond the fact Knight could probably play PL, and Cullen high level Championship, maybe its the season for Smallbone to breakthrough. Kilkenny at Bournemouth. Molumby will hopefully be playing regularly at a high level Championship at West Brom, and maybe back playing PL in a season or two.

And up front, Obafemi, Parrott.. along with in a couple of years Ferguson.. could all be playing PL football.

And ok, there's a lot of "wishful thinking" there.. but why not feel optimistic

For years we've been lucky to have one, maybe two Irish players playing regularly in the PL (or other higher European leagues)... maybe now we're beginning to see the start of a small conveyor of talent arising..

Wouldn't it be great

[Olé Olé]

I will say one thing - no criticism here and I am probably guilty of it myself but there's a bit of an out of sight out of mind slant on the attack and defence situations with regards to Idah and Omobamidele.

A lot of commentary about how we may have arrived upon a strike partnership in Parrott and Obafemi. I'd back Idah to get a cool 10+ goals next season at Norwich if he can get back fit and playing soon. He looked very good before his injury. His style of play will present an interesting option for Kenny, particularly when you consider he was used almost like Parrott was in the last two games i.e. 9 but willing and happy to come a little deeper. The beauty for him in doing this is his ability with back to goal. I know Parrott and he didn't click v Hungary but both lads were in different places at that time.

All things being equal in terms of club form you'd still be looking at Obafemi and Parrott after the Scotland magic they produced. But Idah is a serious option.

At the back, I have heard Omobamidele's name a lot. Mostly in the context of Coleman's season and Duffy's season and concession of possession against Scotland on those two panicky occasions. Egan left, Collins centre and Omobamidele right has a nice balance to it. But I wouldn't be ruling out Coleman and Duffy just.