Embarrassment of riches: who is Ireland's best goalkeeper?

[John83]

While none of them is quite the finished article, there's a lot of discussion in their individual threads of Bazunu, Kelleher, Travers, and some other options. It's nice to see serious competition for the #1 jersey. Rather than having a fragmented discussion in those threads of who should keep the jersey, let's move it all into a single thread here.

[elatedscum]

To answer the question, Kelleher

[CraftyToePoke]

My take is we don't know yet.

[Kingdom]

To answer the question, Kelleher

Lock the thread John, it's done. :o

[John83]

But Pineapple Stu hasn't explained how much of a risk it is to persist with Bazunu yet. ;)

[SkStu]

Christy Pym.

[pineapple stu]

But Pineapple Stu hasn't explained how much of a risk it is to persist with Bazunu yet. ;)
I have thanked elatedscum's post.

You may now lock the thread. :)

[seanfhear]

How many goals has any of them Scored ? Does Travers have one at club level ?

[kennedmc]

I'd probably go with Kelleher...just. I don't see it as an embarrassment of riches as it is too soon to say that - none of them are proven yet but I appreciate they are early in their careers

[pineapple stu]

How many goals has any of them Scored ? Does Travers have one at club level ?
Two if you include an U23 match as well I think.

[seanfhear]

Two if you include an U23 match as well I think.
Equal to two great saves.

[Razors left peg]

Way too early to know which is the better keeper.

Kelleher hasnt got enough of a body of work even with him being the oldest, but looks brilliant when he does play.

Travers showing how playing games makes a huge difference to how much you can improve, a year ago I wrote him off and thought he would never be a top keeper. Right now he probably looks the best of the 3 on club form.

Bazunu has a presence that I dont think the other 2 have and at his age he has been incredibly impressive, right now I would think he has the highest possible ceiling, but it will depend on how he develops.

[Diggs246]

I've a bad/funny feeling our No1 keeper come November won't be a forgone conclusion

[Kingdom]

Bazunu; Kelleher; Travers; Randolph; McDermott; Talbot; Pym; O'Hara; Ian Lawlor
Are they the realistic options?

The 21s keeper (Maher) hasn't a hope of being in the discussion from the bits and pieces I've seen of him. The other 21s keeper (drogs) have heard quite a few decent things about him.

[tetsujin1979]

Can't seem to find Maher's height online, but anytime I have seen him play, he looks short for a goalkeeper

[Kingdom]

you spelled shíte incorrectly.

[passinginterest]

We're lucky to have three incredibly promising keepers. Bazunu is the youngest, he's in his second season of playing regular football and he hasn't let us down. He's at a potentially critical point in his career after bad errors in two games in a row for his club. He's shown good resilience up to this point in his career, but it might be no harm to take him out of the firing line for a game or two, some young players find it very hard to recover once they've made a few mistakes, and if it happen in another game or two in a row it would be a huge hit to his confidence and be potentially long term damaging. Of course, if they stick with him and he keeps an outstanding clean sheet the next day, he'll prove he's got great character again.

Travers is now playing regularly and at a higher level than Bazunu, purely on that basis he has a good case to be first choice. I haven't seen a huge amount of him, but he wasn't convincing when he got his chance for Ireland (albeit he might have been unlucky compared to the luck Bazunu seemed to have). This season he's had numerous clean sheets and there seems to be no doubt he's the established number one for his club now. If Bazunu's club form continues to suffer there might be a case that he jumps into the team, but it would be a big ask to throw him in against Portugal, especially as he seems to be third in the national team pecking order at the moment.

Kelleher looked a bit shaky at times for the under 21s and in the early games he played for Liverpool. Recently though, he's been excellent any time he's gotten a chance for national team or club. The fact he's had almost nothing to do in his most recent games probably hasn't helped him at all, although he still pulled off one very sharp save for Liverpool last week. He needs to play more though to become first choice for us, he can't be judged by the same standards as Travers and Bazunu if he's not getting the same amount of playing time to either impress or make mistakes. It's very unlikely to happen, but would love to see him on loan in the new year for a championship team. Liverpool could surely survive with Adrian if Alisson got injured in a game and Kelleher had a recall clause in the loan contract.

Overall, at the moment Bazunu has the jersey for us and unless he loses his club place and looks short on confidence when he joins up with the squad it's hard to see him losing the jersey, at least not in November. Come the new year he might well be under a lot more pressure from both of his rivals for the spot.

[JR89]

Can't seem to find Maher's height online, but anytime I have seen him play, he looks short for a goalkeeper

Looks smaller than Jimmy Corcoran to me and he was around 5'10 I believe.

[pineapple stu]

Bazunu; Kelleher; Travers; Randolph; McDermott; Talbot; Pym; O'Hara; Maguire
Are they the realistic options?

The 21s keeper (Maher) hasn't a hope of being in the discussion from the bits and pieces I've seen of him. The other 21s keeper (drogs) have heard quite a few decent things about him.
O'Hara's now on the bench at Burton; I don't think he's an option unless he gets a good next move.

Randolph - done great for us but needs a move too.

McDermott - Kristiansund are having their best-ever season and with eight games to go are on course for a first ever European qualification. Could be worth keeping an eye on.

Pym has been dropped, as in fairness predicted by some here.

Talbot - don't think he's an option. I think if Byrne, the stand-out player in the LoI, is a squad player at best for us (and I think he's worth a squad place fully fit) then other LoI players aren't of the level required.

Who's Maguire?

My two cents on that lot anyway. McDermott the only one likely to break into the squad as is. Travers very much the surprise of the season so far

[third policeman]

[QUOTE=. Liverpool could surely survive with Adrian if Alisson got injured in a game and Kelleher had a recall clause in .[/QUOTE]

The recall would have to be immediate.

[Kingdom]

My father always told me not to act the príck, cause I was too dim-witted to not have it bite me back on arsse with plenty to spare.
Wiser man than his son, that's for sure.

It's Ian Lawlor I was thinking of, not the lanky gouger off the Cork senior football team.

[seanfhear]

The recall would have to be immediate.
Mid Match ? !

[pineapple stu]

My father always told me not to act the príck, cause I was too dim-witted to not have it bite me back on arsse with plenty to spare.
Wiser man than his son, that's for sure.

It's Ian Lawlor I was thinking of, not the lanky gouger off the Cork senior football team.
Ah! I had a google and there is an Aaron Maguire at Spurs, a 17-year-old who looks a proper ginger Irish fella, but he's played for both Ireland and English at youth level. He's only 17, so I didn't think he was an option right now!

Lawlor's not getting his game for Dundee and seems to have struggled with the step from English fourth tier up to third tier, so I'd say he's not really an option either.

[ontheotherhand]

If the timing of everything had been different I think Kelleher would be #1 right now and would likely hold on to it for a while based on how comfortable he has looked albeit without much to do.

But the way things worked out, Travers messed up his shot and Bazunu ended up getting one and hasn't let us down even though he is now playing at the lowest level of the 3 and making more errors than the other 2, even if Kelleher isn't playing enough for that to be relevant. It's a weird situation.

He's made mistakes you'd expect a 19 year old to make and now we are in a position where we either drop him or stick with him because we think the positives have outweighed the mistakes. If you drop him and another keeper comes in and does worse do you just keep changing? That said, if he can't get back to his earlier club form and his last two games become a trend, then we'll obviously have to switch things up and that case I'd go with Travers who deserves it on form for me. It's really disappointing for me that Kelleher hasn't demanded a move. He needs to play at his age.

I personally think Bazunu might have the highest ceiling of the 3 but it's tinted by the fact he played for Rovers and I saw him doing his thing at age 16. I'm happy for him to continue playing and learning despite mistakes but I completely understand why others think Kelleher or Travers are the more complete article. I do think there's a bit of grass is greener going on though. They are all inexperienced.

I'd also say that my position is that our whole team is a work in progress and I'm absolutely fine with that. They will make mistakes. So I'm ok with a keeper learning things the hard way and gaining as much experience with the team as possible until we are ready to properly challenge for qualification. I want the best keeper ready to go for the euros and I'm ok to wince through a few errors if he isn't quite there now. All 3 look promising but Bazunu is in there now so I'd stick with him pending a bad run.

[third policeman]

Kelleher has explained why he’s happy to be where is. No2 at one of the best club sides in the world. He’s working alongside a world class keeper, manager and first rate coaching staff - and getting some game time. Allison has had lengthy spells out with injury in the past, so it’s highly possible he will get more games. Liverpool rate him and are quite happy to pick him for very big games when Allison is not fit - bigger games with more at stake than Ireland have been involved in recently. It’s Klopp and Liverpool’s confidence in him, as well as his performances, that should offer reassurance about his readiness for international football.
Liverpool don’t think he needs loan experience to be ready for big matches. Pep clearly thinks that Bazunu does.

[ontheotherhand]

Sure, he's in a great position for his club career but great as it may be, if he was playing he'd be Irelands number 1 now if he's as good as you believe and we all hope. So in the context of this discussion, it's holding him back. He was also unlucky to be injured when he might have gotten the nod to be fair but he may have already had the position locked down if he'd been established at another club.

Pep thinking Bazunu needs to play isn't shocking is it? He's 19. We all think he needs to play don't we? Kelleher took a different path that may end up working out great for him but my point was that if he'd had a loan spell in between 19 and 22 he'd have a better body of work behind him. Relying on Liverpools confidence in him and the associated confidence of Liverpool fans like yourself or John Aldridge is less useful to people like me who don't know much about Liverpool. Karius was Liverpool's #1 at one point wasn't he? :)

I want to see the lad play in tough games to see what he's about. That doesn't mean he isn't or won't be a better option for Ireland.

[third policeman]

Sure, he's in a great position for his club career but great as it may be, if he was playing he'd be Irelands number 1 now if he's as good as you believe and we all hope. So in the context of this discussion, it's holding him back. He was also unlucky to be injured when he might have gotten the nod to be fair but he may have already had the position locked down if he'd been established at another club.

Pep thinking Bazunu needs to play isn't shocking is it? He's 19. We all think he needs to play don't we? Kelleher took a different path that may end up working out great for him but my point was that if he'd had a loan spell in between 19 and 22 he'd have a better body of work behind him. Relying on Liverpools confidence in him and the associated confidence of Liverpool fans like yourself or John Aldridge is less useful to people like me who don't know much about Liverpool. Karius was Liverpool's #1 at one point wasn't he? :)

I want to see the lad play in tough games to see what he's about. That doesn't mean he isn't or won't be a better option for Ireland.

Thought you’d mention Karius and you could throw in Adrian as another counter example. They were painful lessons in relying on substandard goalkeepers for cover. They went out and bought Allison after Karius and quickly promoted Kelleher when Adrian let them down. Ultimately, the only way to see whether he is ready for international football is to give him a decent number of games. He isn’t going to go on loan so waiting for that to happen is not an option. Nor should he be denied an opportunity simply out of loyalty to a 19 year old who is out on loan in League 1 and making some rather alarming errors. It’s all about opinion, and possibly a bit of Liverpool bias, but my gut tells me, Kelleher will prove to be our long term No 1.

[Razors left peg]

What kind of errors was Kelleher making at 19? We dont know because he wasnt playing any football. Bazunus experience that he is gaining now along with the natural talent that he has, I see nothing to suggest that Kelleher is better than him or will be better than him.

[third policeman]

What kind of errors was Kelleher making at 19?.

Is that a serious question? Even if he was making similar errors to those made by Bazunu of late, he’s not making them now. I think your argument, along with others, actually supports the case that Kelleher is further along in terms of development even though he has not had a loan spell. Bazunu has obvious talent and Pep obviously thinks he needs loan experience to iron out issues that we can all see need attention and development. That sounds like a reason for not rushing into a decision about making him our number 1 .

[ontheotherhand]

Thought you’d mention Karius and you could throw in Adrian as another counter example. They were painful lessons in relying on substandard goalkeepers for cover. They went out and bought Allison after Karius and quickly promoted Kelleher when Adrian let them down. Ultimately, the only way to see whether he is ready for international football is to give him a decent number of games. He isn’t going to go on loan so waiting for that to happen is not an option. Nor should he be denied an opportunity simply out of loyalty to a 19 year old who is out on loan in League 1 and making some rather alarming errors. It’s all about opinion, and possibly a bit of Liverpool bias, but my gut tells me, Kelleher will prove to be our long term No 1.

Yep all fair but along with Bazunu's errors are some fantastic performances that seem to be ignored to an extent. My point is, we don't know if Kelleher is a great back up or a first choice. He's made the call to stay on the bench and I understand it. But it would have been fantastic for us if this was a no brainer because was first choice already elsewhere.

I'd imagine Bazunu will be dropped for Portsmouth's next game and that might give us an opportunity to bring in Travers or Kelleher so he might get that run you're talking about. Thankfully all 3 are young enough that they can suffer a few bad spells here and there as they progress and Ireland should end up with at least 1 great keeper and maybe even a backup as good as.....Kelleher?

[mypost]

Sure, he's in a great position for his club career but great as it may be, if he was playing he'd be Irelands number 1 now if he's as good as you believe and we all hope. So in the context of this discussion, it's holding him back. He was also unlucky to be injured when he might have gotten the nod to be fair but he may have already had the position locked down if he'd been established at another club.

Pep thinking Bazunu needs to play isn't shocking is it? He's 19. We all think he needs to play don't we? Kelleher took a different path that may end up working out great for him but my point was that if he'd had a loan spell in between 19 and 22 he'd have a better body of work behind him. Relying on Liverpools confidence in him and the associated confidence of Liverpool fans like yourself or John Aldridge is less useful to people like me who don't know much about Liverpool. I want to see the lad play in tough games to see what he's about.

He didn't need a loan spell in those years, because he was playing PL2 games every week. Now he's promoted to No. 2, he can step up further at a moment's notice. His next game is at Preston next week, so 3 first team appearances already this season.

[ontheotherhand]

Only 35 more to go to have as many senior appearances at club level as 19 year old Gavin Bazunu then!

[third policeman]

Only 35 more to go to have as many senior appearances at club level as 19 year old Gavin Bazunu then!

In League 1.

[ontheotherhand]

In League 1.

Yes. Playing men's football in in important games behind leaky defences. Where does the PL2 stand?

[mypost]

You said he wasn't playing games at 19, and it turns out that yes he was. He's been at Liverpool 5 years. He made his senior team debut in 2018 in a pre season friendly v united, his competitive debut in 2019 and his European Cup debut in 2020. Now he probably doesn't want the instability of jumping from one loan move to the next every year, at lower level clubs, with leaky defences that are not really the standard of European Cup winners. He has played 10 senior games for Liverpool, and impressed every time. When Liverpool qualify out of the European Cup group, he will get gametime at the end of the group phase again.

By contrast, Bazunu will never play a first team game for City. Next year he will be at some other club, making the same mistakes as he has recently. He will be permanently on loan from City until the end of his contract. As for Travers, he got his chance in Serbia, conceded three goals, and we lost. So he will never play for Ireland again.

[seanfhear]

With three such good goalkeepers should we be allowed to loan one of them ( at least ) out for Cash.

[tetsujin1979]

You said he wasn't playing games at 19, and it turns out that yes he was. He's been at Liverpool 5 years. He made his senior team debut in 2018 in a pre season friendly v united, his competitive debut in 2019 and his European Cup debut in 2020. Now he probably doesn't want the instability of jumping from one loan move to the next every year, at lower level clubs, with leaky defences that are not really the standard of European Cup winners. He has played 10 senior games for Liverpool, and impressed every time. When Liverpool qualify out of the European Cup group, he will get gametime at the end of the group phase again.

By contrast, Bazunu will never play a first team game for City. Next year he will be at some other club, making the same mistakes as he has recently. He will be permanently on loan from City until the end of his contract. As for Travers, he got his chance in Serbia, conceded three goals, and we lost. So he will never play for Ireland again.
You really can't envision the circumstances where a promising goalkeeper plays for Ireland again, ever?

[ontheotherhand]

You said he wasn't playing games at 19, and it turns out that yes he was. He's been at Liverpool 5 years. He made his senior team debut in 2018 in a pre season friendly v united, his competitive debut in 2019 and his European Cup debut in 2020. Now he probably doesn't want the instability of jumping from one loan move to the next every year, at lower level clubs, with leaky defences that are not really the standard of European Cup winners. He has played 10 senior games for Liverpool, and impressed every time. When Liverpool qualify out of the European Cup group, he will get gametime at the end of the group phase again.

By contrast, Bazunu will never play a first team game for City. Next year he will be at some other club, making the same mistakes as he has recently. He will be permanently on loan from City until the end of his contract. As for Travers, he got his chance in Serbia, conceded three goals, and we lost. So he will never play for Ireland again.

Good to see you got your crystal ball back but it paints a grim enough picture. The thread started with 3 promising but unproven keepers to talk about and now two of them should hang up the gloves already. I must reassess everything.

Kelleher has played a handful of games and done well. My point isn't that he is not our best keeper, just that he he isn't our obvious number 1 one but might be if he'd gotten a season or two of senior football under his belt. Bazunu has had good games and bad. If he'd only played 10 in 5 years he might look like the best keeper in the world.

But look I can absolutely see why people think Kelleher is the best of the three. If you read my earlier post, I said he'd probably be the #1 if not for timing.

[elatedscum]

Looks smaller than Jimmy Corcoran to me and he was around 5'10 I believe.

If you look at the photo of the 21s from tallaght before the game, he looks closest in height but a smidge smaller than Kayode who is listed at 6’3. He’s definitely smaller than Mark McGuinness at 6’4/6’5 and also smaller than Jake O’Brien (listed height unknown) and well taller than Wright (5’10) and Coventry (5’10)

So I’d guess he’s 6’1 or 6’2

[ifk101]

Watched the Stoke Bournemouth game the other night, and Travers didn't have much to do. So looked into this a bit more to see if that is a typical evening's work for him. Travers has faced just 34 shots on target from 13 league games, conceding 8 goals. This works out at facing 2.6 shots on target per game, and Travers is conceding a goal every 4.2 shots on target (76% save percentage).

As a comparison, Bazunu has faced 63 shots on target in 13 league games, conceding 18 goals. That's 4.8 shots on target per game, and goal conceded every 3.5 shots on target (71% save percentage). However, if you removed the wobble he has had in the last two league games, his goal against stat is every 4.5 shots (79% shave percentage)(a slightly better stat than Travers who has a stronger defence/ team ahead of him (Bournemouth topping their division, Portsmouth's a lower mid-table)).

The above doesn't say anything about the type of shot on target/ the difficulty of saves/ dealing with crosses and corners etc. But Bazunu is the busier goalie and appears to be doing quite well.

As for Kelleher, he looks calm, composed and confident the few times he has played the last couple of seasons but hasn't really been tested. Because he is not playing it is hard to know if he is still the goalie we saw for the U21s/ league cup games for Liverpool a couple of seasons or if he has genuinely moved up a level.

[pineapple stu]

Well (a) you can't remove his blunders like that because they did happen and (b) while you mention that Travers has a better defence in front of him, you don't mention that Bazunu is facing poorer forwards because he's playing a division lower. You can't twist stats like that.

Similarly to the poster who said that Bazunu has had some great performances for Ireland if you ignore the errors. If you've made some good saved but you also come haring out to the edge of the box to almost give a goal away, then you've not had a great performance. Keepers don't tend to get away with their mistakes as much as other players, so consistency and level-headedness is vital in a keeper.

[ifk101]

Well (a) you can't remove his blunders like that because they did happen and (b) while you mention that Travers has a better defence in front of him, you don't mention that Bazunu is facing poorer forwards because he's playing a division lower. You can't twist stats like that.

Calm down. (a) Small sample size - ideally the sample should be a season long. Bazunu is having a bump on the road at the moment, an abnormality in his performance statistics. Unlikely Travers and Bournemouth are going to coast through the full season as they currently are doing. When Travers has that bump it will skew his comparison with Bazunu. (b) It's a shots on target statistical comparison - do we need to adjust the comparison to make allowance for L1 strikers not hitting the ball as hard or as accurately as their Championship counterparts? Let's not be silly - you're not defining "poorer" here either. Explain how they are "poorer" in terms of shots on target?


Similarly to the poster who said that Bazunu has had some great performances for Ireland if you ignore the errors. If you've made some good saved but you also come haring out to the edge of the box to almost give a goal away, then you've not had a great performance. Keepers don't tend to get away with their mistakes as much as other players, so consistency and level-headedness is vital in a keeper.

Bazunu has a 83% competitive save percentage for Ireland, 30 shots on target, 5 goals conceded. I'm happy with that. Why aren't you?

[pineapple stu]

Calm down. (a) Small sample size - ideally the sample should be a season long. Bazunu is having a bump on the road at the moment, an abnormality in his performance statistics.
Well no - you can't just adjust stats to take out data points you don't like. See how it compares later in the season, sure. But the blunders happened and can't be ignored.


do we need to adjust the comparison to make allowance for L1 strikers not hitting the ball as hard or as accurately as their Championship counterparts? Let's not be silly - you're not defining "poorer" here either. Explain how they are "poorer" in terms of shots on target?
It definitely needs to be considered, because L1 players are playing in a lower league and by definition are poorer players. Would you say a similar shot-to-save ratio for James Talbot at Bohs or Brian Maher at Bray directly compares?


Bazunu has a 83% competitive save percentage for Ireland, 30 shots on target, 5 goals conceded. I'm happy with that. Why aren't you?
I think I've voiced my concerns in that regard many times - the save percentage is too blunt a statistical tool. If a keeper has a blunder a game in them (dropping the corner at home v Azerbaijan, the overruled penalty v Qatar, the fumble onto the post in Portugal, etc, etc) then that's a concern that overrides percentages. Your stat doesn't take into account how lucky he's been playing for Ireland, for example.

[ifk101]

Well no - you can't just adjust stats to take out data points you don't like. See how it compares later in the season, sure. But the blunders happened and can't be ignored.

Ok. I'd have my concerns about Travers, think his stats so far don't take into account how lucky he is to be playing for Bournemouth at the moment.


It definitely needs to be considered, because L1 players are playing in a lower league and by definition are poorer players. Would you say a similar shot-to-save ratio for James Talbot at Bohs or Brian Maher at Bray directly compares?

So how are the shots on target poorer? Is there less power in the shots, are they less accurate, would Gianluigi Buffon in his prime have a 100% save percentage if he played LSL? Explain.


I think I've voiced my concerns in that regard many times - the save percentage is too blunt a statistical tool. If a keeper has a blunder a game in them (dropping the corner at home v Azerbaijan, the overruled penalty v Qatar, the fumble onto the post in Portugal, etc, etc) then that's a concern that overrides percentages. Your stat doesn't take into account how lucky he's been playing for Ireland, for example.

Subjectivism is a blunter tool.

[pineapple stu]

Do I honestly need to explain in detail how poorer players have poorer shots on target? It should be completely self-evident. Yes, power and accuracy would be two of the main things. But there's reaction time too. Ability to anticipate errors. Ability to find or create space in the box, to get that bit further away from a marker and get a cleaner shot in. Lots of things.

Would Buffon have a 100% save percentage in the LSL? He'd be bloody close, yes. Because LSL forwards are ****e compared to Buffon in his prime. And you didn't answer my question - would you say a similar shot-to-save ratio for James Talbot at Bohs or Brian Maher at Bray directly compares to Travers in the English second tier?

How is Travers lucky to be playing at Bournemouth? Does that mean he has been lucky in terms of not conceding goals from his mistakes? Because they're very different things. And I don't see why you think that's a reason to ignore Bazunu's blunders because it suits your argument.

(This isn't me being anti-Bazunu btw - this is me being anti bad statistics. And anti bad English too - how am I being subjective when I'm literally quoting examples and giving reasons why your argument is weak?)

[ifk101]

Do I honestly need to explain in detail how poorer players have poorer shots on target? It should be completely self-evident. Yes, power and accuracy would be two of the main things.

Sure, do that. No subjective wishy washy please. Explain how a Championship player striker hits the ball with more power than his L1 counterpart.



Would Buffon have a 100% save percentage in the LSL? He'd be bloody close, yes. Because LSL forwards are ****e compared to Buffon in his prime.

Ok - sure. But is that a subjective opinion or factual? English no good.


Have you any evidence of Travers' luck at Bournemouth? It may be true, but it still doesn't mean you can ignore Bazunu's blunders because it suits your argument.

Yes I have watched him play. Travers looks very nervy to me, dodgy on crosses, looks like he would struggle under sustained pressure. IMO Bazunu is more composed, faster reactions and better distribution. All my subjective opinion of course, don't have blunt statistics to back this up but allow me to mention that Bazunu competitive save percentage for Ireland is 83% and the save percentage for Travers is 25%.


(This isn't me being anti-Bazunu btw - this is me being anti bad statistics. And anti bad English too - how am I being subjective when I'm literally quoting examples and giving reasons why your argument is weak?)

Bazunu's decision making can be weak but he done fine for Ireland in my subjective opinion and his save percentage backs that opinion up. I think I'd rather have a subjectively lucky keeper in the nets than a subjectively unlucky one. Are statistics bad when you don't like them?

[pineapple stu]

Sure, do that. No subjective wishy washy please. Explain how a Championship player striker hits the ball with more power than his L1 counterpart.
You literally deleted the part of my post where I explained the difference between forwards at different levels.


Ok - sure. But is that a subjective opinion or factual?
Are you actually asking if it is factual that Buffon in his prime - one of the greatest keepers ever - would have close on a 100% save rate in the LSL? Seriously?

And once again, you've ignored my question on whether you would say a similar shot-to-save ratio for James Talbot at Bohs or Brian Maher at Bray directly compares to Travers in the English second tier?


Yes I have watched him play. Travers looks very nervy to me, dodgy on crosses, looks like he would struggle under sustained pressure. IMO Bazunu is more composed, faster reactions and better distribution. All my subjective opinion of course, don't have blunt statistics to back this up but allow me to mention that Bazunu competitive save percentage for Ireland is 83% and the save percentage for Travers is 25%.
You said he was lucky to be playing at Bournemouth, but haven't explained that. You've now compared save rates from literally one game, which was away to a decent team who battered, us to a series of games diluted by home games against markedly worse forwards from Azerbaijan, Luxembourg and Qatar. Do you not see the issue with that? Like, earlier you talk about the issues of a small sample and then you try to use a sample of one.


Bazunu's decision making can be weak but he done fine for Ireland in my subjective opinion and his save percentage backs that opinion up. I think I'd rather have a subjectively lucky keeper in the nets than a subjectively unlucky one. Are statistics bad when you don't like them?
But I've pointed out how your one blunt statistic isn't really useful in the overall context. Statistics are bad when they're bad. I've outlined why your stat is bad. But you're now trying to twist this into how I don't like the outcome your bad stats are showing?

I'm not sure what you think you're trying to achieve here by ignoring my arguments and just re-iterating your badly-informed viewpoints.

[ifk101]

You literally deleted the part of my post where I explained the difference between forwards at different levels.

Are you actually asking if it is factual that Buffon in his prime - one of the greatest keepers ever - would have close on a 100% save rate in the LSL? Seriously?

And once again, you've ignored my question on whether you would say a similar shot-to-save ratio for James Talbot at Bohs or Brian Maher at Bray directly compares to Travers in the English second tier?

Calm down. You have yet to explain the difference. You have said it is completely self-evident, ie not needing explanation, - the shots on target of L1 players are poorer. Explain how the shots on target of a L1 player have less power and less accuracy than a Championship player?

And no, I don't think Buffon would have a close to 100% save percentage in the LSL - yes, seriously. Don't have save percentages for Talbot or Maher.


You said he was lucky to be playing at Bournemouth, but haven't explained that. You've now compared save rates from literally one game, which was away to a decent team who battered, us to a series of games diluted by home games against markedly worse forwards from Azerbaijan, Luxembourg and Qatar. Do you not see the issue with that? Like, earlier you talk about the issues of a small sample and then you try to use a sample of one.

He is facing 2.6 shots on target per game at Bournemouth - stated in my initial post. Subjectively that is low number, so is it not subjectively lucky for Travers to play in a team with subjectively little to do? The Bazunu statistics are for competitive games for Ireland, they do not include the Qatar games (friendlies) and they include matches against Serbia and Portugal (subjectively teams at a higher level than L1/ Championship - more accurate and powerful shots?).


But I've pointed out how your one blunt statistic isn't really useful in the overall context. Statistics are bad when they're bad. I've outlined why your stat is bad. But you're now trying to twist this into how I don't like the outcome your bad stats are showing?

I'm not sure what you think you're trying to achieve here by ignoring my arguments and just re-iterating your badly-informed viewpoints.

Ok. Cheerio.

[pineapple stu]

Calm down. You have yet to explain the difference. You have said it is completely self-evident, ie not needing explanation, - the shots on target of L1 players are poorer. Explain how the shots on target of a L1 player have less power and less accuracy than a Championship player?
Did you maybe read where I gave my reasons?


Yes, power and accuracy would be two of the main things. But there's reaction time too. Ability to anticipate errors. Ability to find or create space in the box, to get that bit further away from a marker and get a cleaner shot in. Lots of things.


And no, I don't think Buffon would have a close to 100% save percentage in the LSL - yes, seriously. Don't have save percentages for Talbot or Maher.
So why do you think the best keeper in the world wouldn't have close to a 100% save percentage in the LSL? Because that's a fairly out there claim that really needs some sort of back-up to it.

And I didn't ask you if you had percentages for Talbot or Maher - I asked you if they had similar percentage rates to Travers, would you consider them equal to him?


He is facing 2.6 shots on target per game at Bournemouth - stated in my initial post. Subjectively that is low number, so is it not subjectively lucky for Travers to play in a team with subjectively little to do?
Not really. Good team has good goalie - hardly a shock? And the point of percentages is to compare on a level playing field (ie per hundred; shots in this case), so if you want work in percentages, you can't then bring the number of shots into things.


The Bazunu statistics are for competitive games for Ireland, they do not include the Qatar games (friendlies) and they include matches against Serbia and Portugal (subjectively teams at a higher level than L1/ Championship - more accurate and powerful shots?).
You're again abusing stats though. My point is that by including games against Luxembourg and Azerbaijan (I don't know why you'd exclude Qatar, but fine), you dilute the overall quality of player he's playing against, and so your comparison isn't really fair because you've taken one game with four shots (too small a data sample) and compared it with games which, overall, are of a lower level.

[Stuttgart88]

Stu, we know your view on Bazunu by now. It's a bit one-eyed I think but it's what you think so that's OK.

I'm less clear on your view of Travers or Kelleher. Has anything you've seen of either caused any concern for example?

Me: I think Travers looks calm and composed at club level now and has taken his chance really well, but struggles to read the flight of the ball at corners. A big lad like him should have no bother with balls into his 6 yard box but he starts to come, stops, and just never makes his mind up. Even in a procession of a game like Tuesday's he got confused by one.

I was a Kelleher-sceptic after the Toulon tournament a few years ago but felt the accolades he was receiving can't have come from nowhere so I put trust in others' views. His League Cup outings didn't impress me last season and I thought he played very well v Ajax but got bailed out by an offside call when he totally missed an inswinging ball. The same error by the Ajax keeper led to Liverpool's goal that night. I haven't seen Kelleher tested by these type of situations enough.

I thought he looked the better of 2 good keepers in Hungary and he looks to have grown up a lot too. His body language is much more "I'm the man" now, whereas before it was "I'm a rookie, I hope I don't mess up". He saved a rubbish pen at Norwich having in my opinion been a bit at fault in the immediate build up.

Two bad club games in a row by Bazunu might prompt SK into a rethink and I think Kelleher's new-found maturity might elevate him at some stage soon. I think Bazunu is touch and go for November now.