2022 FIFA World Cup

[OwlsFan]

What a place to have a world cup ~ ~ ~ Fifa sold their soul and the soul of football ~ ~ Multiple times.

Disagree. It was time an Arab country got a World Cup. Every other ethnic area (except the Asian sub continent) has had a world cup. There is a huge amount of anti-Arab bias in the western media, particularly since the USA and UK failed in their bids. The amount of racist memes going round is unbelievable. Every chance they get to show a few empty seats is grabbed at. Of course Muslim values are not for most of us but you know gay rights are only a relatively new phenomenon here. If the WC had been awarded in Ireland, the Qataris could have protested about women's health issues, homelessness, alcoholism and drug abuse here to name but a few. It's not ideal but it's there.

[John83]

I look forward to your support for Vanuatu's WC bid. After all, they've had zero world cups in Oceania. There isn't enough land for the stadia required, but I'm sure we can just make rafts of migrant labourers. They don't have any oil money to buy FIFA votes, but let's not engage in violence against the socio-economically disadvantaged.

Accusing Qatar WC critics of racism is bunkum. There are plenty of grounds to criticise it validly, and hiding behind that shield debases it and you.

[joey B]

3 of the last 4 games have ended nil nil now,poor start to the competition really…..

[Stuttgart88]

An SPL back 4 with a Celtic reserve DM is getting the treatment you’d expect!

Despite that, and Iran, I'd agree withn John Hartson on ITV just now (yes, I'm stuck with UK coverage) after a third 0-0 in 24 hours that defences / defensive systems have been on top this tournament so far. It'll be interesting to see if this trend continues.

[Stuttgart88]

3 of the last 4 games have ended nil nil now,poor start to the competition really…..Yes, but one major upset and two very commanding performances from fancied teams. I've seen worse starts...

[Jd2793]

meh, 1st round of games in a knock out comp being cagey/poor is hardly a surprise, especially with such short prep times for teams before it all started. it'll open up in the next round of games im sure.

[seanfhear]

Disagree. It was time an Arab country got a World Cup. Every other ethnic area (except the Asian sub continent) has had a world cup. There is a huge amount of anti-Arab bias in the western media, particularly since the USA and UK failed in their bids. The amount of racist memes going round is unbelievable. Every chance they get to show a few empty seats is grabbed at. Of course Muslim values are not for most of us but you know gay rights are only a relatively new phenomenon here. If the WC had been awarded in Ireland, the Qataris could have protested about women's health issues, homelessness, alcoholism and drug abuse here to name but a few. It's not ideal but it's there.
I'll give ya full marks for fighting that corner ~ ~ I certainly wouldn't ~ ~ On the grounds of all the workers that died and how they were / are treated alone ~ ~ Qatar is a very racist place as are the other similar Arab oil places.

[pineapple stu]

Despite that, and Iran, I'd agree withn John Hartson on ITV just now (yes, I'm stuck with UK coverage) after a third 0-0 in 24 hours that defences / defensive systems have been on top this tournament so far. It'll be interesting to see if this trend continues.
I think that's a bit of a trend in football lately anyway. 5 subs isn't helping either - players aren't getting tired late on and making mistakes.

But yeah, England, France and the Saudis have given value, so it's been a solid enough start to things so far.

[seanfhear]

I think that's a bit of a trend in football lately anyway. 5 subs isn't helping either - players aren't getting tired late on and making mistakes.

But yeah, England, France and the Saudis have given value, so it's been a solid enough start to things so far.
5 Subs is an incredible help to the bigger footballing nations ~ ~ Even more so when games are played close together such as in tournaments and even in the windows ~ ~ Smaller nations have less and less chance as time goes by ~ ~ International football will become less and less attractive to the fans of smaller footballing nations in the future ~ ~ That seems inevitable.

Even if by chance we managed to get 11 good players how can we ever hope to compete against teams with 25 good players especially with 5 subs available to use ! !

[Stuttgart88]

Disagree. It was time an Arab country got a World Cup. Every other ethnic area (except the Asian sub continent) has had a world cup. There is a huge amount of anti-Arab bias in the western media, particularly since the USA and UK failed in their bids. The amount of racist memes going round is unbelievable. Every chance they get to show a few empty seats is grabbed at. Of course Muslim values are not for most of us but you know gay rights are only a relatively new phenomenon here. If the WC had been awarded in Ireland, the Qataris could have protested about women's health issues, homelessness, alcoholism and drug abuse here to name but a few. It's not ideal but it's there.The Economist has an editorial this week saying the same thing (https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/11/17/in-defence-of-qatars-hosting-of-the-world-cup). There was far less uproar when China / Russia were awarded Olympics (3?) and a World Cup. Geopolitically Qatar is more "onside" wrt the West than other arab countries etc.

Personally I think an arab/muslim country is deserving of a WC but Qatar, the size of an Irish county, should not be a sole host. The sustainability aspect is ridiculous. A "gulf" WC in selected cities would have been a better proposition. The best WC of my childhood was Argentina which was run by murderous military dictators. Irish attitudes to women, even stealing their babies and sending them to catholics in America, and to this day systemic cover up of child abuse are all things an arab country could take aim at us for. We all buy oil from these States so why shouldn't we play football there? I'm not saying we should be quiet about our morality concerns but we can't arm these countries, buy their oil, allow them to buy leading European football clubs and then in the same breath say they can't host a global football tournament imho.

The treatment of migrant workers was of course a disgrace - that's where I'm most uncomfortable. The bid terms should have ensured worker protection.

[Stuttgart88]

5 Subs is an incredible help to the bigger footballing nations It'd be a help to us too if we ever used them before 80 minutes :)

[joey B]

Germany look decent,Japan hanging on a bit but should be further behind….

[seanfhear]

It'd be a help to us too if we ever used them before 80 minutes :)
It does seem ~ ~ Frugal use alright ~ ~ And shows little faith to / of the subs in them by Kenny which is not exactly good for morale of the squad.

[pineapple stu]

The treatment of migrant workers was of course a disgrace - that's where I'm most uncomfortable. The bid terms should have ensured worker protection.
Agree with all you've put in that post - though just to throw a curve-ball, you look at our own treatment of migrant workers, with covid outbreaks occurring in the summer of 2020 at meat-packing plants because, when it came down to it, both sides view migrant workers as people we can put working in conditions and for pay that local workers (rightly) wouldn't put up with, and at a high carbon footprint too in terms of travel. It's not the same level as in Qatar of course (taking passports in particular), but still, it's starting down the same route. Are we really without sin ourselves there?

There's lots of hypocrisy on show I think - Russia expelled for the Ukraine invasion and calls for Iran to be banned because they're supplying drones, but no such comments while the Saudis bomb Yemen with English and US equipment. And could you imagine the reaction if Qatar turned up for a game in the US with armbands saying "Two genders" and highlighting some of the nonsense going on over there, or the Tavistock scandal in the NHS (unmonitored puberty blockers and so forth)?

That said, I also agree with John's criticism of Owls' post; it's too simplistic to dismiss criticism of Qatar as anti-Arab racism. Qatar shouldn't be hosting the World Cup primarily for reasons of climate, security concerns around the small area the tournament is packed into (which FIFA highlighted in their bid evaluation), some of the more blatant lies in the document (carbon neutral tournament; air con everywhere) and the lack of existing facilities (which seem to still be being built even after things have started).

[joey B]

Japan equaliser,have been much better in the second half….

[Stuttgart88]

ah but they could have been 3 down so it doesn't count :)

[Stuttgart88]

Wowzer!

[SkStu]

I'll give ya full marks for fighting that corner ~ ~ I certainly wouldn't ~ ~ On the grounds of all the workers that died and how they were / are treated alone ~ ~ Qatar is a very racist place as are the other similar Arab oil places.

This is very true. My barber is a Syrian refugee and he tells me a lot of tales about how racist the other Arab states in the region are. His direct experience was in Jordan but he says his family and friends have had awful racist experiences in many of the other surrounding spots.


Agree with all you've put in that post - though just to throw a curve-ball, you look at our own treatment of migrant workers, with covid outbreaks occurring in the summer of 2020 at meat-packing plants because, when it came down to it, both sides view migrant workers as people we can put working in conditions and for pay that local workers (rightly) wouldn't put up with, and at a high carbon footprint too in terms of travel. It's not the same level as in Qatar of course (taking passports in particular), but still, it's starting down the same route. Are we really without sin ourselves there?

It is definitely an interesting counter point. And one i largely agree with. Not that i have been a victim to it but the treatment of employers to immigrant workers - especially those with poor english - is atrocious here. And this is a place where we have strong labour and compensation legislation and systems. The counter to your counter might be just that - - in Canada (not sure about Ireland) it cannot be said to be systemic - - there are protections, there are processes, there are fines and penalties for claims supression, there is healthy workplace injury compensation. The violations are the exception and usually based on indivdual employers vs. at the industry or broader levels. I think that is significantly different from Qatar where, from the interviews that are out there, the state and others are in complete denial that there are ANY deaths at work or ANY abuses of immigrant rights in general.

[joey B]

Japan bloody hell!!

[SkStu]

Madness!

[pineapple stu]

The counter to your counter might be just that - - in Canada (not sure about Ireland) it cannot be said to be systemic - - there are protections, there are processes, there are fines and penalties for claims supression, there is healthy workplace injury compensation. The violations are the exception and usually based on indivdual employers vs. at the industry or broader levels. I think that is significantly different from Qatar where, from the interviews that are out there, the state and others are in complete denial that there are ANY deaths at work or ANY abuses of immigrant rights in general.
This is probably worth a split thread (in CA maybe?) while we watch another fun upset, but I do agree with that. Of course, you look at the Bulgarians being flown in during covid to pick strawberries (specialist labour my hole) and I don't think they count as direct employees so I'm not sure how much protection they have. I don't think they get minimum wage for example. I absolutely agree that what happens in Qatar is a step or four above here. But we're not blameless.

And of course there's never complaints when Qatar Airways sponsor things or when there's golf in Dubai (which has a similar mindset re migrant labour, as I think Simon Reeve has highlighted on one of his trips)

[tetsujin1979]

Hamann does not look healthy today

[Stuttgart88]

This is probably worth a split thread (in CA maybe?) while we watch another fun upset, but I do agree with that. Of course, you look at the Bulgarians being flown in during covid to pick strawberries (specialist labour my hole) and I don't think they count as direct employees so I'm not sure how much protection they have. I don't think they get minimum wage for example. I absolutely agree that what happens in Qatar is a step or four above here. But we're not blameless.

And of course there's never complaints when Qatar Airways sponsor things or when there's golf in Dubai (which has a similar mindset re migrant labour, as I think Simon Reeve has highlighted on one of his trips)Let's say you're a newly qualified Irish nurse/doctor/teacher or whatever with no chance of getting a deposit for a flat in Dublin. You get offered a good job in Qatar, Dubai or Abu Dhabi. More money than you'd earn at home and tax free. Do you rule it out on moral grounds or think it's worth doing for a few years? (Ignoring that it might even be fun and there's a vibrant ex-pat community etc...)

[pineapple stu]

I'm not blaming the Bulgarians for taking the jobs though - I'm blaming big companies trying to save money by flying in cheap labour they can take advantage of more easily.

If we're going to try build a more sustainable society and reduce our carbon emissions in line with all known major warnings, then yes, I absolutely think that we should pay a little bit more for meat or fruit and create local careers rather than fly people half-way around the world to work and live in crap conditions to bump up the corporate bottom line.

[Stuttgart88]

If we're going to try build a more sustainable society and reduce our carbon emissions in line with all known major warnings, then yes, I absolutely think that we should pay a little bit more for meat or fruit and create local careers rather than fly people half-way around the world to work and live in crap conditions to bump up the corporate bottom line.Isn't that kind of happening already? Not necessarily for ESG reasons but for very definite geo-political and domestic political reasons we're reducing our reliance on Chinese and 3rd World labour. In the developed world labour's share of profits has been shrinking for a generation and it's high time this was reversed. The current bout of global inflation is partially due to this reversal. Every generation or so the economic balance of power pendulum swings between labour and capital. Right now it's swinging back towards labour.

[pineapple stu]

I don't think so. Yeah, you hear a lot of talk about ESG looking into supply lines but seen very little real action. I was in at Dublin Zoo at the weekend for example and there was a biodiversity exhibit (Wild Lights) which constantly referenced shopping local and so on to reduce carbon - but everything in the shop was made in China. There was an article giving out about England's World Cup kit (and replicas) being made in Thailand by workers on $1/hour (but the kit is £115).

Plus many companies actively recruit in Eastern Europe or beyond because they want to drive down base wages (Musgraves recruiting in Poland/Croatia being a relatively recent example - they don't want to pay local wages because all they care about is the bottom line). Or office cleaners - again, all cheap import labour in the last 10 years or so.

And of course while we think we're being great and diverse and multi-cultural and inclusive, we don't consider the brain drain impact on those countries, hamstringing their economic development in the process.

There's a lot of hot air about stuff like that but very little action because if we're honest, we like cheap meat and strawberries and reduced cleaning budgets. And that's as far as we can see really.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah, I was saying it's less to do with ESG and more to do with reducing reliance on China etc. It's happening in certain goods. But across the board pay conditions have been under scrutiny more than in a long time.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, fair enough on ESG alright; I mis-read that bit. There's time for that to have impact yet, but it's a lot of greenwashing at present so far as I can see.

We're looking to reduce reliance on Russian gas and look how that's going - over to the Saudis and licking them up! Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I think we're addicted to cheap labour (and energy) and I would be surprised if that's going to change much in reality. But the flip side is I think it has to if we're at all serious about greater global equality, carbon reduction, sustainability, etc. (Which we're not - the West, for want of a better term, is serious about making money for itself and that's it)

I think we've gone off on quite a tangent though - as Spain are tearing Costa Rice apart; 4-0 after 55 minutes and the poor Costa Ricans have to face an enthusiastic Japan and a possibly desperate Germany still - but I think we're in rough agreement that if he who is without sin can cast the first stone, then we shouldn't be throwing it at Qatar, even if we are clearly better in some areas than them?

[seanfhear]

Some great points being mare re the Qatar situation ~ ~ Both Pro and Against ~ ~ Thanks Posters.

[joey B]

Gavi is ridiculous,18 years old….

[Bielsa´s irish]

Gavi scored a Roy Keane kind or goal

[NeverFeltBetter]

RTE sum up tiki-taka brilliantly by referring to Spain's manner of playing as "soul destroying movement" then moments later declare the fourth goal " a joy to watch".

[Jd2793]

cawley is a woeful pundit/co-comm. that game was a hard listen

[NeverFeltBetter]

I think he's fine myself, it's just his delivery isn't great. He doesn't really seem to have a feel for how to project himself properly and sounds nervous at times.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Canada are well up for this. Reminds me of the USA/Wales game in that we have a young team running rings around the older, but I'd say the more experienced side will settle into it eventually. Shame the penalty was saved, that would really have made it interesting.

[passinginterest]

Not sure how Canada weren’t given a second penalty on the VAR review. Pretty unlucky to be behind. The Canadian system strikes me as being what Stephen Kenny wanted his Ireland team to be. High tempo, high press and brave enough to really commit to it.

The couple of times Belgium did break the press they had Canada in trouble but they either fluffed it or the defence recovered well. Makes it all the more galling for Canada that the goal they conceded was a long straight punt down the middle.

[joey B]

Belgium distinctly unimpressive in this game,compared to the likes of Spain and France they’re miles off it….

[Stuttgart88]

Is it just me or are Belgium much worse since Anthony Barry joined the set up? ?

[osarusan]

I thought Canada were wonderful to watch, and not just in a plucky underdog way. Really well structured side, moved at pace, had more than one plan of attack...Herdman in for Ireland.

[SkStu]

Canada were BRILLIANT!! Lots to be hopeful for with what looks like a below par Croatia (complicates my home life :)) and Morocco...

[tetsujin1979]

for anyone stuck in work, you can listen to the BBC Radio 5 Live commentary on the BBC Sounds App in Ireland, not sure about the rest of the world
Ususally work from home, but I'm in the office today listening to Switzerland - Cameroon

[pineapple stu]

Gavi is ridiculous,18 years old….
And Pedri (19) alongside him and Torres (22) up front - plus six more players 22 or younger in their squad, all at top La Liga sides. Kind of puts our golden generation in context! If they don't win this year, they're surely already early favourites for 2026.

[Stuttgart88]

That's not fair. Aaron Connolly is somewhere in Venice.

Swiss 1 up.

[SkStu]

Portugal v Ghana has been a fun game, second half more so. Looking forward to Brazil v Serbia too, I think that will be a bit of a battle.

[joey B]

Nearly an all time World Cup moment there,keeper rolls it out,Ghanaian sneaks in from the goal mouth and slips before he can turn and score,sick!

[pineapple stu]

And another great WC moment - Richarlison with a proper Brazilian goal to extend their lead against Serbia. They're looking decent too.

The tournament has been a bit hit and miss so far - 4 0-0s, plus Switzerland being Switzerland - but it's more hit than miss and some upsets in the first round have teed up the second round of games nicely.

[pineapple stu]

And they've brought Gabriel Jesus off the bench now. And Firmino didn't make the 26-man squad.

Serious strength in depth too.

[joey B]

Brazil just brought 200 million pounds worth of player of the bench,unfair just!

[Stuttgart88]

Such a great Brazilian goal. Such a shame it was Richarlison. On evidence of Premier League I'd say he's one of the poorest Brazilian forwards in my lifetime. Literally seconds before his first goal I was telling pals in a WhatsApp chat he was a waste of space out there and lucky to be in the squad :) But he looks at home in that side tbf. I thought Brazil looked even better after their subs.

It was a a good win. Serbia could have nicked a goal. Brazil defended set pieces well and kept their discipline at 0-0 waiting for a breakthrough, believing their chance would come if they cranked it up a notch. It was a great watch I thought.

[Stuttgart88]

And another great WC moment - Richarlison with a proper Brazilian goal to extend their lead against Serbia. They're looking decent too.

The tournament has been a bit hit and miss so far - 4 0-0s, plus Switzerland being Switzerland - but it's more hit than miss and some upsets in the first round have teed up the second round of games nicely.

I think some have been good 0-0s though. I always try and put myself in the shoes of a fan of one of those teams, look at the game through that lens, as if it was us playing. Would you enjoy the 0-0 if it kept you in contention and set up a big game next time out? Almost certainly. And a few have been good tactical battles too imho. On a standalone basis the games might be dull but in the wider context they're interesting.