Michael Obafemi F Plymouth Argyle (loan from Burnley) b.2000

[ontheotherhand]

I think Kenny and his club manager have been quite clear that the lad wants to play with Ireland and is trying to get a sustained run at club level. I think skepticism isn't unfounded but maybe unnecessary for now. Hopefully he's back in June and ready to go and that sounds like the plan.

Yeah I might be a little unfair on the lad above but it's hard to shake his recent history and my point was more that his history would indicate the issues have been more on his side. Kenny wouldn't exactly have a reputation for not getting on with players although Stuey Byrne may disagree with me there. If anything Kenny can be far too nice as seen during his poor stint with Rovers. He got bullied and should have been a lot more cut throat.

Obafemi does seem to have his head screwed on a bit better these days so hopefully everyone is on the same page and we see him scoring goals like the above in a green shirt soon. Parrot has apparently matured a lot in the last year. Maybe Obafemi is on the same track. We could use them both.

[pineapple stu]

Yeah I might be a little unfair on the lad above but it's hard to shake his recent history
I think it's because of the parallels with Declan Rice, for example -

Declan Rice has fully committed his future to the Republic of Ireland (https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/declan-rice-fully-committed-future-republic-ireland-154448)

Michael Obafemi ‘certain he wants to play for Ireland’ (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/michael-obafemi-certain-he-wants-to-play-for-ireland-despite-his-absence-from-squad-41463098.html)

He's also probably the least Irish player ever to play for us (his own brother isn't even eligible as far as I know) and it's only natural to think he might want to play for England or Nigeria if the opportunity arose and if his career continues to gain pace.

Like it or not, that sort of talk will continue until he's tied down internationally.

[ontheotherhand]

I think it's because of the parallels with Declan Rice, for example -

Declan Rice has fully committed his future to the Republic of Ireland (https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/declan-rice-fully-committed-future-republic-ireland-154448)

Michael Obafemi ‘certain he wants to play for Ireland’ (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/michael-obafemi-certain-he-wants-to-play-for-ireland-despite-his-absence-from-squad-41463098.html)

He's also probably the least Irish player ever to play for us (his own brother isn't even eligible as far as I know) and it's only natural to think he might want to play for England or Nigeria if the opportunity arose and if his career continues to gain pace.

Like it or not, that sort of talk will continue until he's tied down internationally.

I hope it's just immaturity to be honest but there's certainly no guarantee he is committed and there's warning signs there. As said above, I wonder what would have happened if Nigeria had qualified for the WC and ran out of options up front.....

Either way, throwing this one on Kenny seems unfair to me. The lad has form of all kinds!

[third policeman]

[QUOTE He's also probably the least Irish player ever to play for us (his own brother isn't even eligible as far as I know) and it's only natural to think he might want to play for England or Nigeria if the opportunity arose and if his career continues to gain pace.

Like it or not, that sort of talk will continue until he's tied down internationally.[/QUOTE]

Paul Butler? Tony Cascarino? He was born in Ireland so has a better qualification than quite a few.

[pineapple stu]

Both at least had family from Ireland, albeit not blood relations (step-father's father for Butler; adopted relation for Cas). Obafemi doesn't even have that. He was born here, so is eligible, but he moved to England when he was a few weeks old apparently (https://www.dublinlive.ie/sport/never-choice-michael-obafemi-only-16075461) (which is a lot younger than I realised actually, assuming that link is correct).

Those few weeks are the sum total of his eligibility. He really has no cultural or family ties to Ireland. Put yourself in his shoes - who would you play for in that situation?

[Diggs246]

Unless the three years since last appearing for your country only counts for senior appearances then he last played for the U21s only 16/17 months ago.
Good point
Does anyone have any clarity on this rule?

[Eirambler]

Yes, it's three years since the last appearance in a senior international - under 21 appearances don't count in respect of the three years.

So he is currently free to switch to either England or Nigeria if he wished to do so.

[CraftyToePoke]

So, what doesn't really make sense here given his links to Ireland and how brief they were if the article is correct is how he was willing to take a cap when breaking through at Southampton, who have produced more than one England international, as a teenager scoring goals. Yet now he's a division lower, well publicised disciplinary problems, and he's not accepting call ups.

Surely he'd have hedged earlier if that was in his head ?

[seanfhear]

If your heart is not in it, for playing for an international team then ya might as well call it quits. Your heart has to be in it. You are no good to your international team-mates and to be honest you are not really even being true to yourself.

[pineapple stu]

So, what doesn't really make sense here given his links to Ireland and how brief they were if the article is correct is how he was willing to take a cap when breaking through at Southampton, who have produced more than one England international, as a teenager scoring goals. Yet now he's a division lower, well publicised disciplinary problems, and he's not accepting call ups.

Surely he'd have hedged earlier if that was in his head ?
Maybe the underage was first-come-first-served and the senior cap was a way of boosting profile. Maybe he wanted to play for Ireland at the time (when he was 18) but is now having second thoughts. Maybe he does still want to play and is genuine about the physio stuff. (I've no idea obviously)

There could be an agent in the ear of all this

June will be interesting I think.

[kennedmc]

I'm Slightly confused by recent Obafemi call up:

1st version:
- called up for 21s
- Refuses call up
- kenny than calls him up for seniors
- obafemi says he needs to rest ham strings and says no thanks

2nd version
- called up for 21s
- refuses calll up
- kenny says he isn't available for selection based on fact he turned down 21s and needs to rest (so in fact no senior call up)

Or perhaps it is a different version?

[JR89]

I'm Slightly confused by recent Obafemi call up:

1st version:
- called up for 21s
- Refuses call up
- kenny than calls him up for seniors
- obafemi says he needs to rest ham strings and says no thanks

2nd version
- called up for 21s
- refuses calll up
- kenny says he isn't available for selection based on fact he turned down 21s and needs to rest (so in fact no senior call up)

Or perhaps it is a different version?

He wasn't called up to the 21s last month.

[elatedscum]

the strongest factor in his favour is the fact he was tied down originally. his cap under o'neill would have tied him to us under the rules at that time. so you'd assume if he wasn't committed, he wouldn't have tied himself down... obviously people can change over time but still it's pretty strong in his favour

[TonyD]

Both at least had family from Ireland, albeit not blood relations (step-father's father for Butler; adopted relation for Cas). Obafemi doesn't even have that. He was born here, so is eligible, but he moved to England when he was a few weeks old apparently (https://www.dublinlive.ie/sport/never-choice-michael-obafemi-only-16075461) (which is a lot younger than I realised actually, assuming that link is correct).

Those few weeks are the sum total of his eligibility. He really has no cultural or family ties to Ireland. Put yourself in his shoes - who would you play for in that situation?

Like Steve Heighway back in the 70’s. He was born in Ireland to English parents. We just happened to get to him early I think. If he’d waited he would more than likely have been capped by England.

[samhaydenjr]

Had a look at the highlights on Swansea's YouTube page and, once again, was really impressed by Obafemi - his layoffs, his runs, his finishing, were all excellent - the only concern was that he didn't seem to really open himself up pace-wise - in fact in the build-up to his second goal he was jogging into the box behind the play when you would have expected him to use his speed to charge towards the goal to meet a cross. Fortunately the ball still came to him on the edge of the area and he finished expertly. Perhaps I'm projecting this because of Kenny's explanation and because Hassenhuttl said when he got injured initially that he would have to be more careful about the runs he makes - on the other hand it may lend some credence to his decision to protect himself against injury by turning down the call-up to friendlies.

I hope he figures a way to use his pace to its full potential safely because, even now when he seems to be containing it somewhat, he's just scored eight goals in eleven Championship games and is the first of our young strikers to really put a run of goalscoring form together at that level. If he can unleash his speed fully, he could become unplayable for many defences (he's claimed he's faster than Mbappe). So the question comes up, when do we get to use him? If he's ready, I think he should be in the squad for the Nations League, possibly as an impact sub initially, with the potentila to become a starter if he keeps this form going to the end of the season and can carry it over to the international scene

[CraftyToePoke]

Had a look at the highlights on Swansea's YouTube page and, once again, was really impressed by Obafemi - his layoffs, his runs, his finishing, were all excellent - the only concern was that he didn't seem to really open himself up pace-wise - in fact in the build-up to his second goal he was jogging into the box behind the play when you would have expected him to use his speed to charge towards the goal to meet a cross. Fortunately the ball still came to him on the edge of the area and he finished expertly. Perhaps I'm projecting this because of Kenny's explanation and because Hassenhuttl said when he got injured initially that he would have to be more careful about the runs he makes - on the other hand it may lend some credence to his decision to protect himself against injury by turning down the call-up to friendlies.

I hope he figures a way to use his pace to its full potential safely because, even now when he seems to be containing it somewhat, he's just scored eight goals in eleven Championship games and is the first of our young strikers to really put a run of goalscoring form together at that level. If he can unleash his speed fully, he could become unplayable for many defences (he's claimed he's faster than Mbappe). So the question comes up, when do we get to use him? If he's ready, I think he should be in the squad for the Nations League, possibly as an impact sub initially, with the potentila to become a starter if he keeps this form going to the end of the season and can carry it over to the international scene

I wouldn't read anything into him jogging into the box other than him seeing that as more beneficial to his chances of scoring in that move. Which he did.

I watched the game v Peterborough he played in days before our last squad announcement, he chased a breakaway at full speed so far into his own half that his own right full back got in his way. I remember thinking it was fantastic workrate and incredible speed. I also remember thinking WTF a few days later to hear this was a guy minding his hamstrings.

We get to use him if and when it suits him is clear at this stage, for whatever reasons.

[pineapple stu]

Like Steve Heighway back in the 70’s. He was born in Ireland to English parents. We just happened to get to him early I think. If he’d waited he would more than likely have been capped by England.
Yeah, Heighway is the obvious comparison alright. Though even then, he spent ten years here (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/why-i-chose-to-play-for-ireland-former-internationals-explain-their-decisions-31202072.html) (which is way longer than I thought he had, even if he acknowledges he never felt Ireland was home)

[Diggs246]

Curtis Davis would have been the most ridiculous one. ( he didn't declare in fairness )

"his grandmother was born in Ireland while her English father was serving here in the British army"

[pineapple stu]

Never heard of that one!

[osarusan]

That's interesting about Curtis Davis. How does his eligibility even get discovered?

Is there some FAI employee somewhere going through the family trees of anybody and everybody, even those with no apparent connection to Ireland whatsoever?

[seanfhear]

That's interesting about Curtis Davis. How does his eligibility even get discovered?

Is there some FAI employee somewhere going through the family trees of anybody and everybody, even those with no apparent connection to Ireland whatsoever?
A while back there was the odd player that used to really want to play international football to raise their profile ~ Maybe Wages / Possible Transfers / Other ~ I am not sure that this is such a thing now with the wages of fairly average players ( by top international standard ) being so good and many of the clubs not actually being all that keen on their players playing international football.

Remember Vinny Jones back in the day desperately searching for an Irish qualification but having to settle for a Welsh one ( poor fella , wink )

[Olé Olé]

He has played for Ireland when he thought he would be tied. His manager at club and country say he wants to play for us. He was born in Ireland to Nigerian parents and raised in England. Yet wants to play for Ireland, taking the comments of his managers at face value. Apparently he still has family in Dublin. Aside from a few years abroad as a child, I don't have any part of my make up that isn't Irish. It is very straight forward for me in terms of identity. I think there are a few posters here who are ignoring the possibility that Obafemi might not feel entirely Nigerian or English and was born in Ireland and has family here so it might feel natural for him to play for Ireland.

[pineapple stu]

I think there are a few posters here who are ignoring the possibility that Obafemi might not feel entirely Nigerian or English and was born in Ireland and has family here so it might feel natural for him to play for Ireland.
I don't think anyone is ignoring that.

(Also I think posts along the lines of "there's a few posters here say" should be banned. There's not that many of us; point to a specific post. That way we can at least argue the specific point being made)

[Diggs246]

That's interesting about Curtis Davis. How does his eligibility even get discovered?

Is there some FAI employee somewhere going through the family trees of anybody and everybody, even those with no apparent connection to Ireland whatsoever?

Id say he knew his granny was born here and word got out and the FAI approached him
If memory serves there was loads of Irish lads at Hull at the time

[Olé Olé]

I don't think anyone is ignoring that.

(Also I think posts along the lines of "there's a few posters here say" should be banned. There's not that many of us; point to a specific post. That way we can at least argue the specific point being made)

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the posts I'm referring to. Calling him "the least Irish player ever to play for us" is a little strange, in my opinion. Someone can be as Irish as they feel and if that is because they were born here then I believe that is okay and if they are willing and capable enough to represent our football team then even better- taking Manning and Kenny and their comments at face value.

And I don't really want to enter into a tit for tat debate directly with you on this, which is why I didn't initially reference your post directly. I think coming in and stating my view is still permitted.

[pineapple stu]

Calling him "the least Irish player ever to play for us" is a little strange, in my opinion.
Not really strange at all to be honest. I think it's a fact for the reasons I've shown. If he wants to play for Ireland, then that's fine of course - but for now I think there's still parallels with the Declan Rice situation and particularly if he turns down a call-up in June, you would start to wonder if he's thinking about changing his mind. And (like Rice) I would understand it if he did want to.

Given that was the gist of the post I was replying to, it seems entirely reasonable.


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the posts I'm referring to. And I don't really want to enter into a tit for tat debate directly with you on this, which is why I didn't initially reference your post directly.permitted.
I just find it generally an unhelpful way of debating to be honest. Insidetherock on the Lithuania thread (https://foot.ie/threads/274573-Republic-of-Ireland-V-Lithuania-Tuesday-29th-March-2022-Friendly?p=2106600&viewfull=1#post2106600) posted that "Anyone writing Troy Parrott off at twenty years of age, is an idiot, and should be called out as such", and it's the same sort of thing - it would be much better to find a post where someone has written Parrott off (because I don't think anyone has) and then you can debate the points easier.

[SkStu]

I have to say, my take on it is as simple as this. The fact that he was born in Ireland immediately makes him more Irish, by the most straightforward definition, than many of the players to have represented us.

“The least Irish player ever to play for us” is complete hyperbole.

[TonyD]

Yeah, Heighway is the obvious comparison alright. Though even then, he spent ten years here (https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/why-i-chose-to-play-for-ireland-former-internationals-explain-their-decisions-31202072.html) (which is way longer than I thought he had, even if he acknowledges he never felt Ireland was home)

Definitely didn’t think he spent anything like that amount of time here.

[pineapple stu]

I have to say, my take on it is as simple as this. The fact that he was born in Ireland immediately makes him more Irish, by the most straightforward definition, than many of the players to have represented us.
The Duke of Wellington would strongly disagree.

So would Steve Highway, based on what the various people in the article I linked had to say about their Irishness.

[CraftyToePoke]

The Duke of Wellington would strongly disagree.

I don't remember TDoW putting out a tweet in his Ireland gear, saying all in, when we picked him though.
I might have missed it of course.

[tetsujin1979]

Thread is going down a dark alley, please keep it on topic, take this discussion to the politics forum if you want to continue

[pineapple stu]

I don't remember TDoW putting out a tweet in his Ireland gear, saying all in, when we picked him though.
I might have missed it of course.
Touché!

I think to sum up the point I was making (and to take it away from tets' dark alley) -

There's definitely parallels with Declan Rice, so I wouldn't read too much into him saying he's committed to playing for us yet.

If anyone is going to consider changing allegiance, it's a fella from a Nigerian family who seems to have lived his entire life bar his first few weeks in England.

If he plays for us, then great. He seems to have made a serious leap forward this year and we're seriously stuck for forwards.

I wouldn't be massively surprised if he changed to Nigeria or held off for an England call-up. Wouldn't begrudge it either (same as I don't begrudge Rice or Grealish)

The point that he already tied himself down to Ireland before is valid and certainly encouraging.

And what happens in June will be interesting.

Not sure any of that is controversial really?

[CraftyToePoke]

I just hope he's a bit sore with Kenny and it'll pass, because he did fully commit to a cap that tied him in fairness to him.

I suppose from his perspective, maybe, possibly ; underage we picked him 8 times when his immediate competition in Parrott / Idah & Connolly were selected 19 /46 / 24 times ( if my maths and Wiki are reliable here ). Even Afolabi was picked 21 times by us. We then came calling as he was breaking through earlier than those lads, and he duly played thus committing. We then promptly went back to ignoring him in favour of those three again & now here we all are again with him doing better than they are and we're smiling and winking at him again. So maybe SK has some work to do is all. ( It shouldn't be like this but these are millennials after all )

We could really do without the international break clause as it hands him all the cards real soon and other countries will be aware.

We could also probably do with his two goals a game habit pausing for a few weeks :)

It was once said on here of another player that he was ' ours to keep ' and if this all goes tits up with Obafemi that phrase will never have been more apt.

[SkStu]

Not sure any of that is controversial really?

I just thought the “least Irish player ever” was a bit controversial. The main thrust of the argument - that his connection is such that he could jump ship - is grand.

[John83]

I just thought the “least Irish player ever” was a bit controversial. The main thrust of the argument - that his connection is such that he could jump ship - is grand.
I think Pineapple didn't mean that as a negative. He is just patholigically interested in corner cases and exceptions and outliers. :)

[seanfhear]

FIFA faffing around with the rules again isn’t doing anything for the credibility of International Football.

[ColourfulPeanut]

It seemed like they were messing with the rules specifically so Munir could play for Morocco. I think they've muddied them too much now. Once you play a senior competitive game with a country, you should be tied regardless of age. Nobody is forcing you to take a cap. The way it is now devalues international football

[paul_oshea]

I have to say, my take on it is as simple as this. The fact that he was born in Ireland immediately makes him more Irish, by the most straightforward definition, than many of the players to have represented us.

.

More Irish than say Kevin kilbane like?

[irishfan86]

It seemed like they were messing with the rules specifically so Munir could play for Morocco. I think they've muddied them too much now. Once you play a senior competitive game with a country, you should be tied regardless of age. Nobody is forcing you to take a cap. The way it is now devalues international football

I think if someone is capped as a minor, they should be able to switch. I'll say that much.

[SkStu]

More Irish than say Kevin kilbane like?

By the most straightforward definition, absolutely yes.

[paul_oshea]

Nothings straightforward when it comes to international allegiance unfortunately

[SkStu]

Nothings straightforward when it comes to international allegiance unfortunately

I don’t disagree, but I also chose my words carefully and they were in the immediate context of Obafemi and P-Stu’s comment that I quoted about him being the “least Irish player ever”. Birthplace is typically the most straightforward and reliable indicator of where players will end up playing internationally.

[Diggs246]

Let's be honest lads
if he is raised "irish". whether that's in Cobh or in East ham to Irish parents or within an Irish community. He doesn't turn down the opportunity to play against Belgium to play against Birmingham in the championship.

[pineapple stu]

Once you play a senior competitive game with a country, you should be tied regardless of age. Nobody is forcing you to take a cap. The way it is now devalues international football
I think it's getting more complicated in fairness. Munir played once for Spain and then was never called up again I think, so I'd be inclined to let him switch to Morocco - but maybe after a period of time without a call up. If Spain don't want him, why not let him switch? But Declan Rice - sorry, you don't get to jump ship quite so quickly.

It's not a great solution either though, and I'm not entirely opposed to your solution either.. I'm not sure there is a really neat one.

Though while on the topic, actually, I think players being capped for countries because they've played in the domestic league for a few years is silly too. I'd nip that one in the bud - though again it's not so easy if they get legitimate residency status and become citizens of that country.


Birthplace is typically the most straightforward and reliable indicator of where players will end up playing internationally.
I'll throw in a "Citation needed" there. Were Paul McGrath, Curtis Fleming or Dave O'Leary ever going to play for England? I think cultural influence is a bigger indicator.

[third policeman]

Let's be honest lads
if he is raised "irish". whether that's in Cobh or in East ham to Irish parents or within an Irish community. He doesn't turn down the opportunity to play against Belgium to play against Birmingham in the championship.

Stephen Ireland, Roy Keane…… Obafemi is not the first player to opt out of an International call-up, and his was only a friendly.

[SkStu]

I'll throw in a "Citation needed" there. Were Paul McGrath, Curtis Fleming or Dave O'Leary ever going to play for England? I think cultural influence is a bigger indicator.

Yeah, its not a perfect science, and I am definitely not claiming it to be. On your point about cultural influence, i'll raise you a Jack Grealish who seems to have been embedded deeply in the Birmingham Irish scene and spent a lot of holiday time with his Irish family which meant nothing when push came to shove and the country of birth came calling. It also seemed to matter very little to Declan Rice (*spits*) despite the cultural influence of 3 senior Irish caps (I acknowledge, i am probably over-expanding the definition of cultural influence with Declan's situation).

Why i think country of birth might be the more reliable and straightforward indicator as to for whom any given player will play is based on the high percentage of caps that are distributed globally being granted to individuals who were born in the issuing country - which i would estimate would easily be greater than 80%. With that said, imperfect and all as this indicator is, it would be really interesting - but likely impossible - to see reliable data related to dual/multi-eligible nationals and how those caps are allocated.

In addition to "place of birth" and "cultural influence", I suppose another factor is "opportunism/ity".

[geysir]

By my reckoning it's simple, ignoring the subjective Irishness factor, first the player qualifies and second he/she wants to play, the third factor though rules all, that is the manager. Here in this case I suspect that the senior team manager is in solidarity by default with the u21 coach, therefore Obafemi is shunned for better or for worse.

[CraftyToePoke]

Here in this case I suspect that the senior team manager is in solidarity by default with the u21 coach, therefore Obafemi is shunned for better or for worse.

So where does SK speaking to him, his club manager, trying to call him up to the last squad and keeping the door publicly open for future squads despite an increasingly flimsy looking fob off tie into all this geysir ?

[geysir]

So where does SK speaking to him, his club manager, trying to call him up to the last squad and keeping the door publicly open for future squads despite an increasingly flimsy looking fob off tie into all this geysir ?
What's with the attitude craftytoepoke? Who knows what manager speak is about, but if Obafemi refused a definite call up to this last squad then he is no longer a player of interest.

[CraftyToePoke]

but if Obafemi refused a definite call up to this last squad then he is no longer a player of interest.

& you know this do you ?

Or is this the latest bout of your on / off relationship with reality being presented as fact and quietly dropped later on ?