World Cup Qualifying 2018, UEFA Group D - Opponent Watch

[geysir]

It ended up 1 nil
It would have been a supreme trial to endure that depressing fare waiting for a beneficial result. Much better that we had that afternoon game with a real knife edge to it, to boost our smidgens of hope.

[Cymro]

If anyone scores in the Croatia/Ukraine match, I believe Wales would also need to score, but not necessarily win, against us. If the Croatia match ends in a goalless draw and our match ends in a 1-1 draw, it would go to fair play points between Croatia and Wales.

It's the other way around, a 1-1 draw in Cro-UKr with a goalless draw in Cardiff would likely send the Croats through on fair play record.

They will play for a win though, draw is no good for them to beat Slovakia.

[DannyInvincible]

2-0 is nicer.

I'd have preferred they won, were seeded for the play-offs and then we drew them after we see Wales off tomorrow. :cool:

[Straightstory]

Feel sorry for the Scots, but at east we'll be spared those pink jerseys in Russia.

[Cymro]

Feel sorry for the Scots, but at east we'll be spared those pink jerseys in Russia.

They would have been banned for promoting non-traditional relations to minors under Putin's law, anyway.

[BonnieShels]

I'd have preferred they won, were seeded for the play-offs and then we drew them after we see Wales off tomorrow. :cool:

They're too close to a World Cup as it is. It's like when Kerry edge towards the AISF... It's too close for my ticker.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Whatever about Ireland, is the Welsh knockout as much of a disaster for them as I think it is? Considering the performance at the Euros and their current ranking, to not even make the play-offs seems a very bad result, even if Wales are relatively new to the higher positions. There's always been an opinion that they aren't anything special without Bale, but it wasn't until last night that I took it as seriously as others. That one header, that distant effort in the first half that was probably going over anyway...what else did they create that had Randolph worried?

[swinfordfc]

Robson header just before we scored .... he got ahead of Duffy ... great save by Randolph! .. And from corner in second half ... Chester header hit side netting - beat Ward in the air!

[geysir]

I think Slovakia have genuine grief at losing out on the 2nd place play-off. They gave big Sam his one and only international point, after conceding a last minute og.
Against Scotland they had Mak sent off after 25 minutes, the ref judged that he dived to win a penalty. Mak did go down on his knees without any contact but he was up in a flash and went after the ball. That in my mind created enough doubt.
Their misfortune is our opportunity.

[DeLorean]

They lost that game to Big Sam. They did win their home game against Slovenia with a late own goal also, so I guess that kind of balanced out.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Slovakia have genuine grief at losing out on the 2nd place play-off. They gave big Sam his one and only international point, after conceding a last minute og.
Against Scotland they had Mak sent off after 25 minutes, the ref judged that he dived to win a penalty. Mak did go down on his knees without any contact but he was up in a flash and went after the ball. That in my mind created enough doubt.
Their misfortune is our opportunity.

Dive all day long! He only got up quickly because he knew how bad the dive looked. 99% of the time I give the guy the benefit of any doubt that he might have been expecting to be hit but Gordon withdrew from the tackle early.

[geysir]

Dive all day long! He only got up quickly because he knew how bad the dive looked. 99% of the time I give the guy the benefit of any doubt that he might have been expecting to be hit but Gordon withdrew from the tackle early.
It is not known why he got up so quickly, nor can an attempt to read his intentions in that split second be used as good evidence :), but because he got up instantly, an action we could all see, it removes or casts enough doubt on the mandatory condition of interpretation, i.e. does the player 'attempt to deceive the ref' or 'pretend to have been fouled'?
It might well have been Mak's intention to deceive but he pulled out of the deception process.

If that was the strict standard of yellow card, the one given to Mak, then yellow cards would be dished out willy nilly in game after game.
Even this morning the ref ignored a blatant dive by an Australian in the box who had then proceeded to roll all over the grass in apparent deathly agony.
The minimum standard to satisfy the interpretation of simulation, is a player falling to the ground and simulating being tackled or hurt. Even that minimum standard is not practiced most of the time.
That's why I say Mak and Slovakia were unfortunate in that game.

[geysir]

They lost that game to Big Sam.
It was indeed a late goal victory for big Sam and a dropped point for Slovakia.


They did win their home game against Slovenia with a late own goal also, so I guess that kind of balanced out.
That's superstition.:)

The Slovaks one nil home victory over Slovenia was balanced out by Slovenia's one nil home victory over the Slovaks.

[Stuttgart88]

It is not known why he got up so quickly, nor can an attempt to read his intentions in that split second be used as good evidence :), but because he got up instantly, an action we could all see, it removes or casts enough doubt on the mandatory condition of interpretation, i.e. does the player 'attempt to deceive the ref' or 'pretend to have been fouled'?
It might well have been Mak's intention to deceive but he pulled out of the deception process.

If that was the strict standard of yellow card, the one given to Mak, then yellow cards would be dished out willy nilly in game after game.
Even this morning the ref ignored a blatant dive by an Australian in the box who had then proceeded to roll all over the grass in apparent deathly agony.
The minimum standard to satisfy the interpretation of simulation, is a player falling to the ground and simulating being tackled or hurt. Even that minimum standard is not practiced most of the time.
That's why I say Mak and Slovakia were unfortunate in that game.Sorry, I just don't see it that way at all. Who says there's a strict minimum standard? And what Mak was thinking isn't known as fact, that's certain. You don't know, I don't know and the ref didn't know. The ref had to make a judgment - read his intentions as you say - and did just that. I reckon (note - reckon, not know) if you asked Mak off the record he'd say he was trying to get a penalty.

I think Mak dived and realised it was a pathetic dive that wouldn't even have deceived a 3 year old so got up. Getting up didn't add any doubt to the mandatory interpretation at all. He didn't simulate being hurt but he 100% simulated being fouled. When that happens it should be a yellow card. What he did is not so common that yellows would be given willy nilly. And do you really have to hit the ground for simulation? What about pretending to be butted? Plenty stand up after that but still simulate.

I have no idea what happened in the Australia game. If the ref made a mess of it so be it. You're almost certainly right. But I don't agree with you at all on Mak's dive, the yellow card and your subsequent standard for a yellow card for simulation. In my opinion the simple standard is whether the ref thought the player was trying to deceive him (or her) into awarding a free or pen, as you say yourself the "mandatory condition of interpretation" although that's quite a legalistic way of putting it.

As I said earlier, I always look to give the benefit of doubt. I was looking to see if Mak might have realistically expected to have been hit by Gordon but Gordon withdrew so clearly and early that I couldn't give Mak the benefit in that instance. Way too many pundits blabber on about "going down too easily" or make judgments simply on whether there was contact, and it makes it out that simulation is worse than it actually is, but Mak's was a dive all day long.

[backstothewall]

Portugal 1-0 up : )

[DannyInvincible]

It was a great cross into the box. Very difficult for the Swiss defence to deal with.

[DannyInvincible]

Holland 2-0 up against Sweden. Is it a mere five further goals they need now to make the play-offs?

[backstothewall]

It was a great cross into the box. Very difficult for the Swiss defence to deal with.

I'd imagine Portugal should roll the Swiss aside now

[DannyInvincible]

Portugal beat Switzerland 2-0, so the Portuguese qualify automatically for Russia.

Switzerland, Sweden and Greece are all confirmed in the play-offs after tonight's results.

[backstothewall]

I know the Swiss have had a great record in qualifying but I would fancy either ourselves or the north to get past them based on that performance. They should have dealt with the cross for the first goal and the 2nd was a bit of a defensive shambles. There was very little in the way of a response to them going behind. Even with Ronaldo having an off night Portugal were very comfortable.

If we put the same sort of physical challenge to them as we put to Wales last night I don't think they would be equal to it.

[DeLorean]

It was indeed a late goal victory for big Sam and a dropped point for Slovakia.

Yes, so therefore three points for Big Sam, not one, as you had said. :)


That's superstition.:)

The Slovaks one nil home victory over Slovenia was balanced out by Slovenia's one nil home victory over the Slovaks.

Well I was talking in the context of your theory that Slovakia can feel unfortunate, and the fact that you sighted the concession of a late own goal in a 1-0 defeat as an example. Surely if they win a match 1-0 with a late own goal it's the exact opposite of their previous misfortune? The fact that they lost the reverse fixture against Slovenia by the same scoreline balanced out the three points alright, but not necessarily the misfortune.

I hadn't seen the Mak incident but I have now. Dumbfounded that you think there's any doubt over it to be honest, as blatant a dive as you're likely to see - https://youtu.be/O-OLBx_gNd8?t=1m36s

[jbyrne]

I hadn't seen the Mak incident but I have now. Dumbfounded that you think there's any doubt over it to be honest, as blatant a dive as you're likely to see - https://youtu.be/O-OLBx_gNd8?t=1m36s

delighted the ref had the nerve and sense to book him knowing it would lead to a red

[elroy]

Is the seeding for the playoffs confirmed? Some NI fans seem to think they have a chance of being seeded.

[DeLorean]

Is the seeding for the playoffs confirmed? Some NI fans seem to think they have a chance of being seeded.

The ranking table isn't being updated officially until Monday but it seems pretty much confirmed by the mathematicians that it'll be Italy, Croatia, Switzerland & Denmark as the four seeded teams. That leaves ourselves, Northern Ireland, Greece & Sweden in the unseeded pot.

[Diggs246]

Im confused too NI are well ahead of Denmark in the rankings, but im sure the bean counters have it right

[BonnieShels]

It's done on UEFA rankings not on FIFA rankings. That's why eg. the Netherlands are in League A and not League B in the Nations League.

[DannyInvincible]

It's done on UEFA rankings not on FIFA rankings. That's why eg. the Netherlands are in League A and not League B in the Nations League.

It'll be based on the FIFA rankings of the 16th of October: http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/y=2017/m=9/news=fifa-world-cup-european-play-off-draw-to-take-place-on-17-october-2906954.html


The eight teams will be seeded in two pots with the four highest-ranked teams placed in one pot. The ranking will be based on the FIFA/Coca-Cola World Ranking published on 16 October.

[BonnieShels]

It'll be based on the FIFA rankings of the 16th of October: http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/y=2017/m=9/news=fifa-world-cup-european-play-off-draw-to-take-place-on-17-october-2906954.html

I've read that then it makes no sense?

Any prospective rankings about the place?

[DannyInvincible]

Im confused too NI are well ahead of Denmark in the rankings, but im sure the bean counters have it right

You can predict the rankings with this prognosis tool on FIFA's website: http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-tools/prognosis.html

NI will fall below Denmark as NI lost their two games (against Germany and Norway) whilst Denmark beat Montenegro and drew with Romania.

[BonnieShels]

You can predict the rankings with this prognosis tool on FIFA's website: http://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-tools/prognosis.html

NI will fall below Denmark as NI lost their two games (against Germany and Norway) whilst Denmark beat Montenegro and drew with Romania.

Well there's your answer.

[geysir]

Yes, so therefore three points for Big Sam, not one, as you had said. :)
"Indeed", meant I was confirming your corrected version.
Anyway the reference to Big Sam was an add on, albeit with incorrect detail.


Well I was talking in the context of your theory that Slovakia can feel unfortunate, and the fact that you sighted the concession of a late own goal in a 1-0 defeat as an example. Surely if they win a match 1-0 with a late own goal it's the exact opposite of their previous misfortune? The fact that they lost the reverse fixture against Slovenia by the same scoreline balanced out the three points alright, but not necessarily the misfortune.
Okay, I see now you were referring to the misfortune of an own goal being scored against Slovakia and balancing that with where Slovakia benefited from an og.
I was more referring to that last gasp attack from England that got them a gammy late goal, which I also thought happened to be an og.
However, England's goal was recorded as a regular goal, not only did I shortchange big Sam's intl record, I shortchanged the English goal scorer.

Slovenia beat Slovakia with a goal in the 74th min and Slovakia beat Slovenia with a goal in the 81th min,
that's what I would call a case of two teams cancelling out each other.

If og's were the misfortune criteria, then to balance out Slovakia's og, Scotland scored a late own goal against them. However I just saw that as an effect of a reduced team all tired out, not an mysterious act inflicted upon Slovakia by a hidden force.


I hadn't seen the Mak incident but I have now. Dumbfounded that you think there's any doubt over it to be honest, as blatant a dive as you're likely to see - https://youtu.be/O-OLBx_gNd8?t=1m36s
As I said, I have no doubt that there was no contact. I am questioning it being a yellow card offense as he 100% pulled out of the simulation of being hit or being hurt. He did not appeal for a foul and got up instantly to play the ball.
I say that in the context of what referees practice, game in game out, in regards to penalising simulation and their guidelines for doing so. Imo. Zak's interpreted offense was at the lowest end of the scale, a long way off from what is usually penalised and how the guidelines are interpreted.
There are just countless examples of where refs ignore the offense of players who they know are just rolling around in simulated agony. If sometimes a card is brandished, it is usually given by an assured ref to a player who continued with the simulation to the point of lying down/rolling around in feigned hurt or appealing for the (alleged) foul to be given in their favour.

[DeLorean]

"Indeed", meant I was confirming your corrected version.
Anyway the reference to Big Sam was an add on, albeit with incorrect detail.

Good stuff, just keeping you humble. :)


Okay, I see now you were referring to the misfortune of an own goal being scored against Slovakia and balancing that with where Slovakia benefited from an og.
I was more referring to that last gasp attack from England that got them a gammy late goal, which I also thought happened to be an og.
However, England's goal was recorded as a regular goal, not only did I shortchange big Sam's intl record, I shortchanged the English goal scorer.

An own goal sounded right to me too when you said it but, yeah, I remember Lallana scoring now alright.


Slovenia beat Slovakia with a goal in the 74th min and Slovakia beat Slovenia with a goal in the 81th min,
that's what I would call a case of two teams cancelling out each other.

If og's were the misfortune criteria, then to balance out Slovakia's og, Scotland scored a late own goal against them. However I just saw that as an effect of a reduced team all tired out, not an mysterious act inflicted upon Slovakia by a hidden force.

All true.


As I said, I have no doubt that there was no contact. I am questioning it being a yellow card offense as he 100% pulled out of the simulation of being hit or being hurt. He did not appeal for a foul and got up instantly to play the ball.

I agree with Stutts that he only rushed back to his feet because he knew instantly the referee wasn't going to buy it, you see that regularly enough and sometimes it does probably give the referee a get out clause. Jbyrne is spot on though I think, fair play to the referee for not buying it and having the balls to do what every other referee should, when a dive is that blatant.

Ignoring the specifics of some late winners, and whether they were deserved or unfortunate, Slovakia lost four of their ten matches. They got no points from the standout team in the group and only managed parity against their two closest rivals. We only lost one of our ten games and took eight points out of twelve against two of our direct rivals, beating both away from home and only conceding one goal in the four matches.

Across the rest of the groups only Sweden and Northern Ireland come close to Slovakia's four defeats, with three each. Two of Northern Ireland defeats came against the world champions, the other in a dead rubber with their work already done. Sweden had an average enough campaign but it was a decent group and they did manage one really big win against France.

So in conclusion, Slovakia, you are the weakest link. Goodbye. :o:o

[DeLorean]

Strachan has left the Scotland position - http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2986&newsID=17304&newsCategoryID=1

Two campaigns running they have bailed us out of a really tricky situation. Fair dues.

[seanfhear]

Strachan has left the Scotland position - http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2986&newsID=17304&newsCategoryID=1

Two campaigns running they have bailed us out of a really tricky situation. Fair dues.He was unlikely to be able to sort out Scottish Genetics in another Campaign .

[Stuttgart88]

I heard an informed Scotland / Strachan watcher on the radio the other night saying he was having a barbed attack on the media. He has a *****ly relationship with the press and he was handing them a bone to play with his genetics comments.

[DannyInvincible]

People laughed when i said strachan was doing well and back after the euros that i thought Wales were a team id like us to be.

Scotland have looked like us but much more solid

But who's laughing again now? :p

In what way did you think Scotland looked more solid? Whatever about our limitations and lack of creativity going forward, I don't think our solidity has really been in question throughout this campaign. We've been pretty solid at the back. We conceded only six goals all campaign. In contrast, Scotland managed to concede twelve (or ten at the time you posted the above), although, in their defence, they did have genetics working against them...

Strachan is gone now and if there was any team for whom he was doing well, it was us; he's bailed us out of potentially missing the play-offs two campaigns in a row now. (Cheers, Gordon!) ;)

As far as Wales are concerned, they crumbled under the pressure in Cardiff and offered little serious threat. Would you still rather we were Wales now?

[EAFC_rdfl]

Nice job DI 😀

[Bungle]

http://m.footballseeding.com/international-tournaments/world-cup-2018/

If we qualify looks like we will be a pot 3 team. The North could be a pot two side which could make for a mouth watering game☺

[WexCar]

http://m.footballseeding.com/international-tournaments/world-cup-2018/

If we qualify looks like we will be a pot 3 team. The North could be a pot two side which could make for a mouth watering game☺


Correct me if I am wrong(maybe I am missing the obvious) but by looking at that site, if we win we will be 2nd seeds. We need to move up two spots & there are 7 playoff teams ahead of us (Peru, 4 seeded UEFA & 2 Unseeded UEFA). If we win we will move up 1 spot by virtue of beating a side placed above us. Also by the fact that there are 2 unseeded teams ahead of us, that means 2 other ties will affect our placing and no matter who wins it, it will eliminate 2 teams above us.

So we need to move up 2 spots but if we win we will move up 3 or 4 spots, depending on the result in Peru/NZ game.

[Bungle]

Correct me if I am wrong(maybe I am missing the obvious) but by looking at that site, if we win we will be 2nd seeds. We need to move up two spots & there are 7 playoff teams ahead of us (Peru, 4 seeded UEFA & 2 Unseeded UEFA). If we win we will move up 1 spot by virtue of beating a side placed above us. Also by the fact that there are 2 unseeded teams ahead of us, that means 2 other ties will affect our placing and no matter who wins it, it will eliminate 2 teams above us.

So we need to move up 2 spots but if we win we will move up 3 or 4 spots, depending on the result in Peru/NZ game.

I thought that myself. God right now i'd settle for a group of death just to be there😀

[geysir]

Correct me if I am wrong(maybe I am missing the obvious) but by looking at that site, if we win we will be 2nd seeds. We need to move up two spots & there are 7 playoff teams ahead of us (Peru, 4 seeded UEFA & 2 Unseeded UEFA). If we win we will move up 1 spot by virtue of beating a side placed above us. Also by the fact that there are 2 unseeded teams ahead of us, that means 2 other ties will affect our placing and no matter who wins it, it will eliminate 2 teams above us.

So we need to move up 2 spots but if we win we will move up 3 or 4 spots, depending on the result in Peru/NZ game.

Should Ireland win through, there is absolutely zero chance for Ireland to be in pot 2 of the WC Finals' draw.
There are 3 places remaining to be filled in pot 2. In the queue ahead of Ireland are 2 qualified higher ranked teams, Iceland and Costa Rica.
Peru are hot favourites to beat NZ and then come the UEFA play offs with 5 teams higher ranked than Ireland.

[Charlie Darwin]

We'd have to move up seven places, which isn't possible.

[Bungle]

We'd have to move up seven places, which isn't possible.

If we say beat switzerland home and away could this be done? Obviously the carlsberg of play off eventualities.

[geysir]

Probably ....... if the prize for beating them was their ranking position.

[Charlie Darwin]

If we say beat switzerland home and away could this be done? Obviously the carlsberg of play off eventualities.
Hypothetically, it might be possible if all the unseeded sides win their ties and Peru lose their play-off, but even so I think we'd still be pipped.

[geysir]

Its impossible Charlie, there is only one pot 2 position open for Ireland and there are 5 higher ranked teams in the uefa play offs.

[KrisLetang]

Even if we don't win we will take power!!!!

[Charlie Darwin]

Its impossible Charlie, there is only one pot 2 position open for Ireland and there are 5 higher ranked teams in the uefa play offs.
If I'm reading it right, though, two wins over Switzerland (for example) could leave us higher than, say, Sweden winning due to two draws.

[KrisLetang]

I feel like the Swiss have a lot of holes.

[geysir]

If I'm reading it right, though, two wins over Switzerland (for example) could leave us higher than, say, Sweden winning due to two draws.
I'd be higher than a Swede if we pulled off 2 wins against the Swiss, but such a victory won't have any impact on our seeding potential. The October rankings are officially out there and those are the rankings used for the seeding.