PCA League Proposal

[gufc2000]

http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/sport/7222745/New-blueprint-on-the-table-from-League-of-Ireland-clubs-offers-hope.html

Key proposal- 16-team Premier Division
- Regionalised First Division with promotion and relegation to local Intermediate Leagues
- One Europa League place to be decided by a 11-team post-season play-off series
- Increased prize money to bankroll full-time Premier Division outfits
- A portion of Uefa prize money and transfer fees to be paid to the FAI
- Clubs bound to pay off debts, invest in facilities and fan clubs

[gufct]

Clubs are growing a set. A proper Pyramid system which will mean across the board reforms at every level.

[Mr A]

Giving this its own thread

[nigel-harps1954]

The FAI would really need to grow a set of balls and implement all of this, which they won't.

A lot of it makes sense, but some of it doesn't. 11 teams play-off for Europa League is too much. If you're including FAI Cup runner-up, 7 teams should be maximum. One place should be automatically awarded to second place in the league too. The last Europa place should be via a play-off. Belgium does this quite successfully too.

In a 16 team Premier Division, there should be two automatic relegation spots and one play-off spot.

Clubs can be bound to pay off debts all they want, that's a positive step, but how can they expect to be able to invest in facilities and fan clubs if they're paying off debts?

[D24Saint]

Some good & bad ideas in their proposals.

[Philosophizer]

I love the idea of a proper pyramid structure. But by just having one top division we automatically decrease the amount of Uefa funding we get, which would probably work against the proposal to increase prize money. But hey maybe with a 16 team league, teams like Waterford/Athlone could start getting decent numbers at matches, which might negate the deduction in Uefa money for not having 2 divisions. Anyone know how much Uefa money we’d lose for not having 2 divisions?

But an 11-team playoff for a Europa league spot?? That sounds weird. Why not make it an 8-team playoff so that you can at least make it a simple quarter, semis and a final. Seems like a desperate attempt to get a few extra matches into the domestic schedule because a 16 team league would mean only 30 league games. Also, we could end up with our 10th placed team representing us in the Europa league, which wouldn’t be ideal.

All in all though, seems a good proposal, but it doesn’t cover the topics of marketing/promotion and community endeavours. I fear the clubs are once again purely focusing on the on-field matters, while ignoring the business/community. One good suggestion by Conroy was the re-establishment of a Club Development officer, which should definitely be re-introduced with any league revamp.

[BonnieShels]

I love the idea of a proper pyramid structure. But by just having one top division we automatically decrease the amount of Uefa funding we get, which would probably work against the proposal to increase prize money. But hey maybe with a 16 team league, teams like Waterford/Athlone could start getting decent numbers at matches, which might negate the deduction in Uefa money for not having 2 divisions. Anyone know how much Uefa money we’d lose for not having 2 divisions?

But an 11-team playoff for a Europa league spot?? That sounds weird. Why not make it an 8-team playoff so that you can at least make it a simple quarter, semis and a final. Seems like a desperate attempt to get a few extra matches into the domestic schedule because a 16 team league would mean only 30 league games. Also, we could end up with our 10th placed team representing us in the Europa league, which wouldn’t be ideal.

All in all though, seems a good proposal, but it doesn’t cover the topics of marketing/promotion and community endeavours. I fear the clubs are once again purely focusing on the on-field matters, while ignoring the business/community. One good suggestion by Conroy was the re-establishment of a Club Development officer, which should definitely be re-introduced with any league revamp.

Does it matter re funding if the FD is regionalised?

[BonnieShels]

http://www.thesun.ie/irishsol/homepage/sport/7222745/New-blueprint-on-the-table-from-League-of-Ireland-clubs-offers-hope.html

Key proposal- 16-team Premier Division
- Regionalised First Division with promotion and relegation to local Intermediate Leagues
- One Europa League place to be decided by a 11-team post-season play-off series
- Increased prize money to bankroll full-time Premier Division outfits
- A portion of Uefa prize money and transfer fees to be paid to the FAI
- Clubs bound to pay off debts, invest in facilities and fan clubs


Legendz is gonna flip when he sees this :)

[nr637]

Some good & bad ideas in their proposals.

I think there is also good and bad ideas with the PCA and the Conroy proposal/report, maybe there is some middle ground to work from.

League advertising/promotion on all forms of media outlets is a priority for the FAI, while the idea of some form of regionalised league format is favoured by most clubs.

[Philosophizer]

Does it matter re funding if the FD is regionalised?

I just presumed that a regionalised division wouldn't qualify for the funding tbh, but I may be wrong.

[Lim till i die]

- Increased prize money to bankroll full-time Premier Division outfits

:D

What a wonderful idea.

I propose every club gets One Hundred Million Euro each and free ice cream.

[Titan]

I firmly believe that a PROPER pyramid structure is the one single thing that will do most to boost Football here. It wont happen though because the FAI will not allow it to happen. Sad but true

[legendz]

- 16-team Premier Division
○ They are right to set this out as an ambition but I can't see it happening in the next 5-10 years.

- Regionalised First Division with promotion and relegation to local Intermediate Leagues
○ From what people more in the know have said, I cannot see local intermediate leagues being linked to the League of Ireland.
○ I would like to see a regionalised intermediary league with LoI B teams and aspiring clubs like Castlebar, Tralee, Carlow and Tullamore who participated in the old A Championship. The highest placed first team from 2 or more regional leagues should play-off against the bottom club from the First Division.

- One Europa League place to be decided by a 11-team post-season play-off series
○ I think Wales has a 12 team division. After 22 games it splits into top 6 and bottom 6. The reason for their play-off is the top team in the bottom 6 has something to play for. It works for them. It doesn't mean it will work in the LoI.
○ With not a whole lot of prize money in the LoI there is possibly a place for a 4 team play-off at the end of the season. The FAI Cup might have to be played before the end of the season in such a scenario so that they know which league places they are playing for on the final league day.
○ 11 teams is too much. Success over the course of the season has to be considered as well.
○ A 4 team play-off including the League Cup winner is my preferred option out of many options they could go with.

- Increased prize money to bankroll full-time Premier Division outfits
○ Naturally a great idea if the money is there through sponsorship etc.

- A portion of Uefa prize money and transfer fees to be paid to the FAI
○ Clubs already pay fees. Are additional fees necessary?

- Clubs bound to pay off debts, invest in facilities and fan clubs
○ Is practical within licensing etc.?


Legendz is gonna flip when he sees this :)I think it was some Stuttgart person who was more an advocate of a pyramid. I simply wanted an intermediary tier like the defunct A Championship. If it is such a bad thing to want to see a Kerry team in or linked to the League of Ireland, fair enough. Enjoy your local LoI team in action and have a nice evening! ;)


I firmly believe that a PROPER pyramid structure is the one single thing that will do most to boost Football here. It wont happen though because the FAI will not allow it to happen. Sad but trueA regionalised intermediary league involving LoI B teams and aspiring first teams is enough. If such intermediary league comes in, there shouldn't be a repeat of the Galway situation from a few years back. When clubs apply, consideration has to be given to LoI clubs already in the area. Ideally clubs would be welcome from areas without a club already.

[El-Pietro]

It was a Bray fan, (Peadar maybe?) who was constantly looking for a Pyramid.

[NeverFeltBetter]

11-team idea, and pie-in-the-sky thinking regards a pyramid structure aside, some good ideas in there. If a First Division(s) was regionalised, what kind of junior/intermediate sides could be convinced to give it a go?

[wonder88]

I think there has been a statement from Eoin Ó Neill of the PCA tonight lads, put away the banners.

[MeathDrog]

The pyramid only works if the interest is there at the bottom of the pyramid.

Intermediate and junior clubs have no interest in becoming a LOI club and who would blame them.

Also the standard of junior soccer is higher than intermediate at the moment which throws it off further.

[passinginterest]

There can be an integrated pyramid type set up without an obligation to promote to a higher division than the club is set up for. There wouldn't need to be massive changes to the junior/intermediate set-up, it would possibly just strengthen some of the intermediate leagues and provide a fall back level for clubs dropping out of the national league. In a way it would be turning the intermediate leagues into something like what the A Championship was. It throws it back into the FAI's court to try and tackle some of the power the various leagues have and to try and bring them under a more consistent structure.

[Neish]

The pyramid only works if the interest is there at the bottom of the pyramid.

Intermediate and junior clubs have no interest in becoming a LOI club and who would blame them.

Also the standard of junior soccer is higher than intermediate at the moment which throws it off further.

I think there would be interest but the LOI entry fee and the prospect of so much travelling puts them off, regionalised leagues would sort this out. The main problem would be attracting supporters to these games

[BonnieShels]

I think it was some Stuttgart person who was more an advocate of a pyramid. I simply wanted an intermediary tier like the defunct A Championship. If it is such a bad thing to want to see a Kerry team in or linked to the League of Ireland, fair enough. Enjoy your local LoI team in action and have a nice evening! ;).

Some Stuttgart person? Well I never!

:)

I think there's a running acceptance that you are the most vocal about league format reform on here over the years. And you definitely went through a pyramid obsession phase.

[legendz]

The pyramid only works if the interest is there at the bottom of the pyramid.

Intermediate and junior clubs have no interest in becoming a LOI club and who would blame them.That's it. The interest isn't there. A small number of LoI clubs are interested in a reserve league. A small number of aspiring clubs were interested in an intermediary league. It seems clear cut that a viable option might be all of those reserve and aspiring clubs in a regionalised intermediary league and allow that level establish itself if possible over 5 to 10 years.

If the Premier Division had 8 clubs playing over 4 series, I can only imagine negativity about it. Now there are comments about the First Division but as it's a step or two out of the limelight, it's not put under the same scrutiny.

A regionalised tier below the First Division would be another few steps out of the limelight. The defunct A Championship had groups of 8 playing only 14 games. While far from ideal, a league at that level could get by with 2 groups of 6 playing over 4 series. The league would need time to establish itself. If it didn't, not much more can be done.

The underage leagues have set a precedent for running two regional divisions. I would simply suggest a North Division and a South Division. Top team in each being winners of their respective division. Have a play-off between the highest first team from both leagues with the winner taking on the bottom team from the First Division.

For the A Championship, clubs had to pay €5000 a year. Does anyone know if there are much costs for the FAI if they did form and took on the administration of an intermediary tier? People have mentioned grants for having two national divisions. Are similar grants available for another level?

If memory serves me right Limerick, Finn Harps and Shelbourne all participated in the A Championship though they were in the First Division and were not obliged to do so. I've seen comments that Cork City had an application to enter a B team into the Munster league refused. A Dundalk official has said they've lobbied the FAI for a reserve league. As I've said already while not ideal, only a small number of LoI reserve teams and aspiring clubs are needed if the interest is there.


Some Stuttgart person? Well I never!

:)

I think there's a running acceptance that you are the most vocal about league format reform on here over the years. And you definitely went through a pyramid obsession phase.Hmmmm. Someone from an area without a LoI club is more interested than people from LoI areas in change that will afford new clubs a pathway to the LoI.

There's a thread on this forum about barstoolers. Lol supporters are comfortable complaining about barstoolers and their ignorance of the domestic game. LoI supporters have a similar ignorance of areas outside of the LoI structure.

Enjoy watching your local LoI team in action and have a nice evening! :)

[gufcfan]

How ridiculous is it that a team possibly on the cusp of Champions League group stage qualification doesn't have a reserve team.

[littlebray]

I've seen comments that Cork City had an application to enter a B team into the Munster league refused.

How times change. It was a commonplace in the early years of the FAI that League teams had B and even C teams playing in e.g. Leinster Senior League and even Leinster Junior Cup. And when that started fading away, the B Division was invented by the League of Ireland clubs in Leinster, who wanted somewhere for their reserve and fringe players to keep fit.

[fionnsci]

How ridiculous is it that a team possibly on the cusp of Champions League group stage qualification doesn't have a reserve team.

Not that ridiculous. Many/most premiership teams don't have reserve teams anymore as far as I'm aware. It's not the fashionable thing to do anymore, it's a better investment to have strong underage teams, under 21s etc.

I don't think we should be looking to expand a reserves system, it would be far preferable to focus our attentions and resources on the under 19s, 17s and (soon to be) 15s National Leagues.

[bluewhitearmy]

There definitely needs to be something between 19s and senior football or even just change back to 21s the jump from 19s straight to senior is too big and players are being lost because of it.

[Philosophizer]

It's obvious that the bigger clubs want B teams. It shouldn't be mandatory coz I'm sure some of the smaller clubs wouldn't bother with it but ideally the bigger clubs should have reserve teams. Maybe if the regionalised 1st division happens as proposed by the PCA we could have B teams in that

[legendz]

It's obvious that the bigger clubs want B teams. It shouldn't be mandatory coz I'm sure some of the smaller clubs wouldn't bother with it but ideally the bigger clubs should have reserve teams. Maybe if the regionalised 1st division happens as proposed by the PCA we could have B teams in thatI doubt the First Division will be regionalised. Does it affects grants for the league or something like that? I thought registration fees for a B team in the LoI are high? Shamrock Rovers B didn't last so long. As previously mentioned, an added tier below the First Division might be the best option without being mandatory and a low fee. Possibly when the underage structures are complete clubs might be in a better position to make a decision on resources for something between 19s and senior.

[John83]

Maybe best linking the report in here from the Gabay brand thread (http://foot.ie/threads/218543-League-of-Ireland-brand-review?p=1902012&viewfull=1#post1902012)

John Caulfield making similar suggestions in the Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/john-caulfield-why-bigger-would-be-better-in-the-league-of-ireland-436582.html) - 16-team Premier and regionalised first divisions to try grow the league.

[outspoken]

Can never understand why people suggest a 16 team PD. Tell me, what do we do with the 4 clubs left outside of that? Just say ah thanks for playing lads but ye aren't invited? Two divisions are needed to keep things exciting.

[pineapple stu]

Did you read the report where it says what would happen to the other four clubs?

[Trainee]

How will a regionalised first div work? What if a team from Dublin cork, limerick, galway etc geys promoted? Will they be told sorry you are not going up as there is already a team from your local area in the league?

There was limited intrest when we had A championship so why would there be a greater interest in this new first divisions.


Also in a 16 team premier will leave to many teams with little or nothing to play for & make it hard for these clubs to attract good attendances. Look at the fall in galway utd attendances towards and of season as we had nothing to play for. We get large crowds for big games that mean something like over 3,000 at must win finn harps game a few years ago of over 2,500 at playoff final.

I'm not sure if 10 team div is the way to go but I think 16 team league is too big.

[pineapple stu]

Did you read the report to see how a regionalised league could work?

[bluewhitearmy]

I think the play off for European spot and the regionalised first division things are just as ridiculous as some of the stuff in the Gabay report tbh and yes I have read it.

[gael353]

in the u19s its been regional for years in the 1st division north and south. winners and runners up went to the premier league.
South was Mervue, Salthill, Limerick, Tralee/Kerry league, cork city, Cobh,Waterford, Wexford and two from Dublin. Within three years Mervue, Salthill, Cork,Cobh, Waterford and Wexford were all promoted and no teams from south came down so it became the Limerick and great Dublin south league. Promotions were not geographical and so the southern league emptied. a similar thing happened in the A league with no B teams allowed get promoted only First teams. Hence Mervue and salthill got promoted from A league without actually winning it.

[pineapple stu]

But there already is regional leagues (MSL/LSL/USL). So given that the First Division is a huge problem - clubs are going bust in it with regularity, and nobody wants to join it - why not merge the two?

OK, it wouldn't be easy; it'd take a lot of politicking, seasons would have to change, etc. But it'd allow for a regional second tier (saving current LoI First Division clubs costs) and encourage new clubs to join the league (partly because if things go wrong, it'd be easier to get relegated)

It wouldn't be a panacea, of course (Trainee's points are valid). But what happens if, say, Athlone or Waterford or Shels or Cabinteely pull out of the league? The league needs the smaller teams to survive - it wouldn't be a league without opponents. I think it's the best way of moving the league forward at present.

I don't see how the FAI can justify shuffling deckchairs while clubs are going under and the league is inching ever closer to an uncritical mass of teams (i.e. too few teams to actually be able to run two divisions, which would be a huge problem). The closed two-division format has clearly failed, I think.

[placid casual]

I personally do not believe there is more than about 10/12 sustainable clubs in the League of Ireland, at present.
There is far too much hand-to-mouth existence from a lot of clubs,and it needs some hard decisions by those in charge, for the good of the league.
I think a 10 team league is one such hard decision

[gufcfan]

It's kind both hilarious and infuriating that the FAI can do something that clubs didn't vote for at all (a 10 team league), yet they dare not upset the applecart in re-organising Irish football into a sane structure.

They managed to wrestle youth football from the child traffickers, so why is sorting out these structures such a no-no?

[nigel-harps1954]

What really annoys me is when people throw out the same old "x amount of clubs would have nothing to play for", conveniently forgetting that this already happens every year anyway. The bottom half of the First Division have nothing to play for. There's three or four clubs in the Premier Division who play out the final 5 or 6 games of the season with nothing to achieve either most years.

A 16 team Premier Division with regionalised tiers below that is the only way forward for me. There would be a handful of teams playing for places at the end of the season, but for me, it would simply be a much more attractive league all round and a 30 game season would eliminate the need for midweek games and make local derbies a much more attractive game having them only once a year in each ground. It's a win - win in my opinion.

It's not simply a case of attracting new teams to a First Division North/South either. The FAI need to take football by the balls in Ireland from top to bottom. The USL, LSL and MSL are leagues all of their own but they all need to come together with the FAI and look at genuinely becoming a part of an overall league structure. For this to happen though, the LSL needs to take in all of Leinster, Ulster likewise needs to take in Cavan/Monaghan and MSL needs to go beyond Cork. Obviously, this necessitates a CSL actually going ahead.

For all this to happen though, the FAI need to grow a set of balls and enforce it rather than suggest it.

[gufc2000]

What really annoys me is when people throw out the same old "x amount of clubs would have nothing to play for", conveniently forgetting that this already happens every year anyway. The bottom half of the First Division have nothing to play for. There's three or four clubs in the Premier Division who play out the final 5 or 6 games of the season with nothing to achieve either most years.

This. Completely agree. Every league in the world has a certain amount of teams playing for nothing in the final few games, its just a given in a league system.

[gufcfan]

This. Completely agree. Every league in the world has a certain amount of teams playing for nothing in the final few games, its just a given in a league system.

Have to disagree. A big part of the reason the FD is such a graveyard is because there is no consequence for being terrible. The League of Ireland isn't popular enough to support what is a de facto franchise league with no relegation from it. Francise is a dirty word in Euorpe, but that's exactly what he have here.

[nigel-harps1954]

Have to disagree. A big part of the reason the FD is such a graveyard is because there is no consequence for being terrible. The League of Ireland isn't popular enough to support what is a de facto franchise league with no relegation from it. Francise is a dirty word in Euorpe, but that's exactly what he have here.

Nobody suggested having no relegation.

[Mr A]

Of the reports on the League in recent times I think this one is the most impressive. Leaving aside the proposal to change format, which I'd see as a side issue here, it's highlighting the importance of the league to the national team is absolutely crucial and this report does that very well. We all know the national team is the only part of Irish football that consistently makes money- so helping everyone, especially at the FAI understand our league is important to that (because the reliance on English football to produce our top players isn't sustainable) makes 100% sense.

[gufc2000]

Have to disagree. A big part of the reason the FD is such a graveyard is because there is no consequence for being terrible. The League of Ireland isn't popular enough to support what is a de facto franchise league with no relegation from it. Francise is a dirty word in Euorpe, but that's exactly what he have here.
My comment was more leant towards the Premier Division ,that I should have clarified.I agree completely that the First Division doesn't punish teams who are brutal, hopefully this could be rectified at some point.

[pineapple stu]

the importance of the league to the national team is absolutely crucial and this report does that very well. We all know the national team is the only part of Irish football that consistently makes money- so helping everyone, especially at the FAI understand our league is important to that (because the reliance on English football to produce our top players isn't sustainable) makes 100% sense.
I think this is the key alright. Previous reports - Gabay, Conroy, Genesis - have never actually asked what the point of the league is. This report is suggesting - as you say - that the point is to generate players for the national team, and shows just how far behind we are compared to pretty much every other league in Europe of a someway comparable size.

The logical conclusion of that is that it makes sense for the FAI to invest in the league - and it's worrying that Gabay almost mocked clubs who were looking for more money. I wonder had he seen this report?

I think only then can you look at league format. What do you want to do with the league? I think you have to try and grow it - bring in new teams and try develop them to the stage where they can produce players as well. But nobody wants to join the First Division - so it seems it has to go. And the MSL/LSL/USL will probably try to reject a merger with the First Division - so it makes sense to merge as few clubs into the new FD as possible and change the MSL/LSL/USL format as little as possible. Then if clubs want to get promoted to the Premier, they can (if they're good enough - you want to avoid a situation where a club with potential like Cabo get promoted and then flounder because it turns out they're crap) and if they don't want to get promoted, they can stay where they are. I think a 16-team Premier is the format which fits that aim the best. (You could argue for a 20-team Premier - all the current LoI clubs - but I think that's too much)

[outspoken]

Have to disagree. A big part of the reason the FD is such a graveyard is because there is no consequence for being terrible. The League of Ireland isn't popular enough to support what is a de facto franchise league with no relegation from it. Francise is a dirty word in Euorpe, but that's exactly what he have here.

Agree with ya there.

[Mr A]

There is no consequence for being rubbish in the first division? I think anyone who has been even remotely involved in keeping a first division club going when the first team is going badly would beg to differ. It's absolutely brutal, and just surviving as a club in that environment is an achievement in itself.

And that's why it's so hard to get clubs to join the league- hence we have reduced from 22 to 20 and it seems more likely we will reduce further than gain more clubs.

[EatYerGreens]

What do you want to do with the league? I think you have to try and grow it - bring in new teams and try develop them to the stage where they can produce players as well. But nobody wants to join the First Division - so it seems it has to go. And the MSL/LSL/USL will probably try to reject a merger with the First Division - so it makes sense to merge as few clubs into the new FD as possible and change the MSL/LSL/USL format as little as possible. Then if clubs want to get promoted to the Premier, they can (if they're good enough - you want to avoid a situation where a club with potential like Cabo get promoted and then flounder because it turns out they're crap)

Clubs going from intermediate football one season to playing the likes of Dundalk in a single Premier Division the next would be far too big a leap IMO, and would set most of the new entrants up for failure.

The First Division has many flaws, but it does at least provide a softer transition into senior football for clubs. Would Cabinteely still be in the LOI if they'd been thrown straight in at the deep end from the start ? Or would they have even joined in the first place ? The gap in quality between the top PD clubs and the lower FD clubs is getter even bigger over time e.g. 2 PD Clubs in the Europa League group stages in the last 5 years, and you wouldn't rule out more in the next 5.

[pineapple stu]

I don't agree with you on the First Division really. Only three clubs have joined it and haven't gone bust or withdrawn. That's not a ringing endorsement. So why would a new team enter? And if the league has a barrier to entry like that, it's in trouble.

Cabinteely aren't a great comparison as they were catapulted into the league from I don't know what division. The result is that they were out of their depth a bit and have struggled. That's not a way to grow a league.

So imagine someone like Tralee earning promotion on the field - so they're an ok side to start with; they've finished ahead of half the current First Division for starters - and then their first league game is home to Dundalk, nor away to UCD. Then they have a reason to aim for league status, and then they could start to grow as a club.

Yes, they might get thumped. But anyone can get thumped. The issue here is that the First Division has failed - not "a 10/12 team league has failed; let's change to a 12/10 team league, but really genuinely failed - and something new is needed to grow the league. Not to grow the top clubs, not to grow the 20 clubs, but to grow the whole league.

Conroy is more of that same; that's its huge failure as a report.

[Charlie Darwin]

Cabinteely aren't a great comparison as they were catapulted into the league from I don't know what division.
The Leinster Football League, the level below the LSL. They left the LSL in 2012 I think.

[pineapple stu]

PCA say they now reject a 10-team league; want their report examined more closely.

So - it is still 3 down 1 up, is it? Or are we just setting the way for a change back to a 12-team league in a couple of seasons?

Gotta love this league.

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/386652/league-of-ireland-restructure-plans-in-turmoil-as-only-four-clubs-favour-ten-team-leagues/