PCA League Proposal

[disgruntled]

With the standard of our refs too someone deserving of a European place based on league position will definitely end up being screwed out of it by a Buttimer.

Fortunately we don't ever have him or his friend Kelly but we have their colleagues who are equally useless :rolleyes:
There's a couple of new refs this season I think ?

[NeverFeltBetter]

Always hated the split idea, regardless of league. A real clumsy way to drum up interest. Not as opposed to the idea of a play-off for the EL or Scottish Challenge Cup admittedly, but generally don't think that's a better idea than just awarding such prizes on the basis of final league position.

Honestly seems like the FAI and PCA are just changing things to seem pro-active. And the continual way that the First Division clubs are being treated remains frustrating.

[total hoofball]

So top 6 teams would have an extra 4 games. Issues - additional end of season fixture congestion (group stages of Europe!), some teams could end up having 3 home games versus 1 away for the same opposition, extra match day revenue for top 6 which is unequal to the bottom 4, bottom 4 teams may have a better schedule gap for any end of season FAI Cup final appearance and/or play-off appearances again First Division opposition. Total mess, should be avoiding anything that resembles the shambles of the Belgian league.

A split in the first division due to no relegation would be pointless (fans and even the players won't show up, Asian betting markets who love that...) so we're going to have 8 extra games for fans and players to enjoy in the graveyard.
Decent players have been leaving the LOI in droves to Intermediate/Junior football due to the crap wages in LOI barely above expenses, easier fixture schedule and less travelling and now first division clubs will have more games, more expenses and how is that going to improve matters trying to keep decent players from dropping out of the LOI football?

[disgruntled]

Always hated the split idea, regardless of league. A real clumsy way to drum up interest. Not as opposed to the idea of a play-off for the EL or Scottish Challenge Cup admittedly, but generally don't think that's a better idea than just awarding such prizes on the basis of final league position.

Honestly seems like the FAI and PCA are just changing things to seem pro-active. And the continual way that the First Division clubs are being treated remains frustrating.

While the PCA is far from perfect I think its unfair to blame them for this.
They were asked for their thoughts through the clubs on ways to improve the league or ideas as to where the leagues could go in the future.
Nowhere was it said that the FAI was going to act on those thoughts or ideas this season.
It seems like the FAI just copied & pasted ideas from a discussion document produced by the PCA.

My own personal view is that the PCA should represent all the League of Ireland clubs.
After all there's only 20 of them.
Its not like we have four or five divisions.

[Mr A]

Unless the PCA gets its act together it should be disbanded. There is zero transparency and the overall impression is of a poorly organised, shambolic organisation whereby a minority of league clubs are able to make decisions that affect everyone. I would favour FHFC walking away from it TBH. The treatment of D1 clubs by the PCA and FAI is indefensible.

[disgruntled]

Unless the PCA gets its act together it should be disbanded. There is zero transparency and the overall impression is of a poorly organised, shambolic organisation whereby a minority of league clubs are able to make decisions that affect everyone. I would favour FHFC walking away from it TBH. The treatment of D1 clubs by the PCA and FAI is indefensible.

I agree that the PCA is far from perfect but at this moment in time its the only show in town.
As I have said previously I'd rather just one organisation to represent all 20 clubs.
Some of the reasons put forward as to why its not that way don't hold water with me.

For FHFC or any other club to walk away would be a grave mistake in my mind.
The League of Ireland has been a complete mess for all the time I have followed it but up to now nothing has been put forward to rectify the situation.
For most of its life it was run by the clubs themselves & we all know what a disaster that was.
The FAI took over the management of the league because the clubs themselves couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery.
Now its a bit rich for some clubs to all of a sudden to grow a pair when for all those years before they themselves did nothing to improve their situation.
The PCA is far from perfect but at least its an attempt.
An imperfect attempt I grant you but at least its better than what went on before which was nothing.

I am led to believe that 1st Div clubs can attend PCA meetings by request whatever that means but that still doesn't give them representation when dealing with the FAI.
Neither can they become members which makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

Incidentally as a matter of interest what did you mean by zero transparency ?

[sbgawa]

Almost Completely agree with Disgruntled re the PCA is a positive and the clubs have forgotten what a shambles they were themselves.
Don't agree with one representative body for all 20 clubs as the relative standard and ambitions of the clubs is to wide. but its not a religious conviction.

[Mr A]

What is the PCA's mission? How does it operate from week to week? Does it publish its decisions and how they were arrived at? What is their vision for the league? When there was a 'ring around' after the voting impasse on the structure change, who conducted this and how did it operate?

Every impression I have got from talking to people who have insight into how it runs is that it's a shambles. So my attitude is that it's reformed to be representative and transparent, or else toss it and start again. There is zero reason to believe there is a prospect of reform as far as I am concerned. Next year a majority of 6 will be able to make decisions for 20 clubs. That is ridiculous.

If the clubs running the league was a disaster and the FAI being in control was bad because clubs had no voice, we haven't made progress because many clubs still have no voice and a minority can make decisions for the whole league. And that suits those at the FAI that only are interested in the top clubs, giving the opportunity to bask in reflected glory when Europe goes well and ignore the lower end of the league.

[Nesta99]

Clubs running the league and their failue to see the bigger picture was down to self interest. Where would be the incentive for Cork to change things at the moment when they are averaging above 4000 per game and are romping the league and most clubs have had that spell in the sun. There was also personal ambition where people used LoI clubs as a leg up in to the admin of the game. The PCA is a good thing but it isnt perfect. Maybe there should be some sort of associate membership if they are not allowing full participation of all clubs. There is probably a method to the madness there where the PCA members know that their direction or clout could be diluted by the vastly different different masterplans. I actually dont think there is a huge amount wrong in terms of league structure especially the Premier Division. There does need to be some regionalisation to help the fist division and align non-league season to ease the potential growth of the 1st division numbers. After that it is infrastructure so money, and prizemoney so money, and things like tv revenue and league sponsorship transparency from the FAI so money again, particpation fees waived for 1st division clubs and new entrants to the LoI. Refereeing standards, number of qualified coaches throughout the game(player to coach ratio from 8s to 18s), youth structures, player development are being addressed or can be addressed as a matter of course outside the PCA ie at least some of the responsibility for the wellbeing of the game lies with the national association no matter who is running the elite leagues. The mistakes to me are any proposals of cosmetic changes - mid season splits, 10/12/16 teams, EL play-offs most of which have been tried and changed only for them to be tried again. Being in the bottom half of a mid season split will be as bad as bing in the 1st division for example. Rather than tinkering with the Premier Division now maybe a better course would be to implement changes below LoI to prepare and influence growth of the number of potential senior clubs. These could even be feeder clubs to some extent (think Excelsior in the dutch league). When season have been aligned, league systems in place, underage leagues all running, a serious league wide stadium development plan for those that need it in place. Money issues above dealt with or agreed on then look at the window dressing of play-offs et al. There is an endless list really like minimum staffing levels for club promotion, press officers etc, full and proper implementation of licencing. Concerted effort of the FAI to address the perception of LoI with schoolboys/junior football and on and on lol

[El-Pietro]

Next year a majority of 6 will be able to make decisions for 20 clubs
This is where you are going wrong. The PCA don't make decisions about the League. The FAI are very good at giving fans/the first division clubs that impression though.

The PCA didn't decide on a ten team league, the FAI did, but the FAI let everyone believe that the PCA vote was what swung the decision.

The PCA is just clubs talking, sharing information, working together and trying to talk to the FAI as one. The league is better off with it than without it. I'd prefer if all 20 clubs were involved but better this than nothing at all.

[Real ale Madrid]

PCA is nothing really except a lobby group for the want of a better phase at the moment. They were not able to come to a consensus on the format / teams in the league for next year. Labeling it as anything more than that is giving it more clout than it has. No reason why the First Division can't set up something similar and look to merge when the time is right.

[Mr A]

A lobby group that either decided on a format change most of the league did not want or else allowed itself to be a patsy for it. A 'lobby group' that is putting forward proposals on how the first division will run when it will not accept those clubs as members.

[NeverFeltBetter]

I'm seeing a lot of "Better this than nothing", but why does it have to be this or nothing? Why can't it be 20 clubs?

If the membership of the PCA is actively refusing to countenance First Division clubs joining, the FD clubs should absolutely form their own entity, and demand similar recognition.

[Real ale Madrid]

I don't entirely disagree with you Mr A but at the end of the day Lobby groups don't make decisions or allow themselves be accountable for anything as they are just lobbying. The PCA has gotten together in an effort to influence change for a variety of issues.

No reason why first Div clubs can't set up something similar - tomorrow. I know Stephen Henderson would rather a soundbite on twitter - but why not actually get together and say hey - we represent the first div clubs - we don't agree with the PCA on this (or these ) issues - here is how we believe, through consensus, what the path forward is.

[EatYerGreens]

A lobby group that either decided on a format change most of the league did not want or else allowed itself to be a patsy for it. A 'lobby group' that is putting forward proposals on how the first division will run when it will not accept those clubs as members.

I don't agree with it, but I can see why they did this.

It's impossible to push for change to the number of teams in the Premier Division without it having an impact on the First Division. And as the First Division clubs would pursue their own self-interest (which they're entitled to), it's likely they'd oppose that.

So I can see why the PD clubs would've wanted to exclude them, even if I don't agree with it. The problem in Irish football has always been one of individual teams of groups of teams pushing for small changes that they believe are in their own benefit, rather than all clubs uniting to push consistently for major change for the collective good. The FAI gets let off the hook every time.

[gufcfan]

and demand similar recognition.

What recognition? There is none.

The FAI just say they did what the clubs asked when it happens to align with what they were going to do anyway.

[Dodge]

EVERY club wants what's best for itself. That's the whole problem. Dundalk are Cork are looking to build on European breakthroughs while Athlone are a basket case getting 100 paying customers in the gate. There is no way both sides have anything close to the same priorities

The PCA argument is that if the league is being decided by clubs that are run ineffectively as junior clubs, then it won't progress

You can argue the rights and wrongs of that all you want but it does have merit. There's no way Dundalk and Athlone should have the same influence on how the league progresses

And having performance on the field decide who are the clubs run best, is as fair a barometer as you can get

[Lim till i die]

I object strongly to the above post.


It's been a few years since Athlone had anything like 100 paying customers.

[ger121]

I object strongly to the above post.


It's been a few years since Athlone had anything like 100 paying customers.

If there is one rule in the LOI, never slag off other clubs' attendances. We've all had periods of ****e crowds.

[Mr A]

Any system which gives Denis O'Connor a say while denying it to a whole division is flat out mental.

A system which ignores that the league's primary problem is that it has been contracting (and therefore Athlone's problem is Dundalk's problem) is misguided.

And an organisation whose meetings are by all accounts shambolic, with individuals clearly driving personal rather than club agendas isn't likely to improve anything.

[El-Pietro]

Any system which gives Denis O'Connor a say while denying it to a whole division is flat out mental.

A system which ignores that the league's primary problem is that it has been contracting (and therefore Athlone's problem is Dundalk's problem) is misguided.

And an organisation whose meetings are by all accounts shambolic, with individuals clearly driving personal rather than club agendas isn't likely to improve anything.
A say in what exactly? This group has no actual power.

[Charlie Darwin]

So top 6 teams would have an extra 4 games. Issues - additional end of season fixture congestion (group stages of Europe!), some teams could end up having 3 home games versus 1 away for the same opposition, extra match day revenue for top 6 which is unequal to the bottom 4, bottom 4 teams may have a better schedule gap for any end of season FAI Cup final appearance and/or play-off appearances again First Division opposition. Total mess, should be avoiding anything that resembles the shambles of the Belgian league.

A split in the first division due to no relegation would be pointless (fans and even the players won't show up, Asian betting markets who love that...) so we're going to have 8 extra games for fans and players to enjoy in the graveyard.
Decent players have been leaving the LOI in droves to Intermediate/Junior football due to the crap wages in LOI barely above expenses, easier fixture schedule and less travelling and now first division clubs will have more games, more expenses and how is that going to improve matters trying to keep decent players from dropping out of the LOI football?
Of all the problems facing the LOI, players dropping to junior or intermediate football isn't one of them.

[Mr A]

A say in what exactly? This group has no actual power.


Following a proposal from the Premier Clubs Alliance (PCA), the Board of the Football Association of Ireland has ratified the SSE Airtricity League switching to a 10-team, two division structure from the 2018 season.

Their 'proposal' was accepted as the league's new structure. They are putting together new proposals, including for the first division. They may not have the power, but they at least appear to have influence.

[El-Pietro]

Their 'proposal' was accepted as the league's new structure. They are putting together new proposals, including for the first division. They may not have the power, but they at least appear to have influence.
Thats just the FAI using the PCA as a scapegoat to draw attention away from themselves. They would have introduced a ten team league either way.

[disgruntled]

Thats just the FAI using the PCA as a scapegoat to draw attention away from themselves. They would have introduced a ten team league either way.

The PCA put out a discussion document which the FAI have adopted as gospel.
The FAI haven't a clue so if it goes wrong its all the fault of the clubs & the PCA.
If it goes right then its was a marvellous idea from the chief sleaze himself Delaney.
If you look at the muppets involved in the FAI they wouldn't know a good idea if it bit them on the ass.
Dinosaurs in blazers.

[pineapple stu]

The PCA put out a discussion document which the FAI have adopted as gospel.
Actually, the FAI have completely ignored the PCA's discussion document. Instead, we're back to going with Conroy.

The PCA is a lobby group really. It does make sense that it can decide who's in its group and not. Bit like the old G14 in that regard.

The problem is (a) with a lobby group for the first time that the FAI seem at least ok with meeting, it'd be nice if they could put forward some decent policies and not be squabbling with each other for once and (b) the FAI are far too incompetent to be able to take on board the suggestions from the lobby group and meld them into their overall big-picture view of the league.

[disgruntled]

Actually, the FAI have completely ignored the PCA's discussion document. Instead, we're back to going with Conroy.

The PCA is a lobby group really. It does make sense that it can decide who's in its group and not. Bit like the old G14 in that regard.

The problem is (a) with a lobby group for the first time that the FAI seem at least ok with meeting, it'd be nice if they could put forward some decent policies and not be squabbling with each other for once and (b) the FAI are far too incompetent to be able to take on board the suggestions from the lobby group and meld them into their overall big-picture view of the league.

You know there's a lot of history to be got through first.
They've squabbled with each other since the beginning of time so why stop now.

[pineapple stu]

Oh I know.

It'd be nice if they could work together as a Clubs' Union.

But it'd be nicer if the FAI weren't just out to take advantage of that problem.

[disgruntled]

Oh I know.

It'd be nice if they could work together as a Clubs' Union.

But it'd be nicer if the FAI weren't just out to take advantage of that problem.

First you have to build trust & that's extremely difficult in the League of Ireland.
Clubs need to look beyond their own little corners & see the bigger picture but that's going to be very very hard for some of them.

[legendz]

What's this nonsense?

https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football/1008259/league-of-ireland-may-introduce-play-off-for-final-european-place-next-season/

Everyone playing each other four times is expected, but have an EL play-off? Or a league split? The best teams should the ones put forward for Europe, and the league system does that. If we have a play-off for the EL spot(s), why not have one for the league winner spot as well?
The league split idea, everyone playing each other five times, would be pretty horrible as well.

The split would be nonsense.

I'm not entirely sure that an EL play-off is a good fit for a 10 team league. It might not be a bad idea to trial it however. It could utililise the 3rd Europa League spot for a boost in end of season attendances and get decent publicity in the media at the same time.