Gibraltar (H) - Sat, 11th Oct. / Germany (A) - Tues, 14th Oct. [Archive] - Page 7

DannyInvincible

10/10/2014, 3:14 AM

Calling up players for the sake of it instead of when the situation warrants it.

Noble, Naughton, Grealish etc etc... haven't worked out so has to call up some Granny ruler to prove a point, satisfy Irish journalists and prove it wasn't a fruitless exercise.

Do you seriously think O'Neill has been engaging in discussions with Christie simply for the sake of it (whatever that would even mean; do you mean to suggest he might be considering selecting players at random or what?...) or because he's a journalist-fearing manager keen to impress the gathering media mob? He's already demonstrated he isn't remotely bothered about getting on the wrong side of journalists. He'll select a player if he thinks he'll add something to the squad. It's as simple as that. No need for baloney. Why wouldn't the situation in which we find ourselves (very low on experienced right-back options) warrant consideration of a player like Christie?

Richard Keogh is a big injury doubt now as well.

What's happened Keogh? It's getting worryingly threadbare at the back. Will Delaney be brought in? Dunne must have said he'd come back in case of emergency?! :p

Have both Coleman and McCarthy been officially ruled out of Tuesday's game by the FAI yet or is there still even a slight chance one or both might make it? Just on Martinez and the FAI, as some seem to think Martinez is constantly out to debilitate us, he speaks of his "very good relationship with the Irish association" in this (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/international-soccer/seamus-coleman-and-shay-given-to-miss-gibraltar-game-30637872.html) piece.

If Coleman is out of Tuesday, who's going to play in his place? Meyler?

Stuttgart88

10/10/2014, 6:55 AM

Except Holland creamed Espana by more and the latter had their day, so what?is Holland the only country you refer to in its English form?

I think it's still a big scalp. There might be one or two Slovakian self loathers who are on the forums moaning about Spain clearly being past it on the evidence of their WC showing but I'd hazard a wild guess that most people are happy.

Equally I'd hazard a wild guess that Tets' point is that lesser teams can beat big teams do we should take encouragement from that rather than throwing in the towel before a ball is kicked.

DeLorean

10/10/2014, 8:18 AM

I think the Dutch for Holland is Holland, and it's not a country :o

Only AB could dampen that win for Slovakia. Spain are obviously one of the front runners to win the Euros still. Casillas had another nightmare for the first goal, surely a matter of time before De Gea takes his place.

DeLorean

10/10/2014, 8:24 AM

What's happened Keogh?

Heard it on the radio yesterday. A bit more here- (http://www.burtonmail.co.uk/Derby-County-defender-Richard-Keogh-picks-injury/story-23082913-detail/story.html)

Kingdom

10/10/2014, 8:33 AM

is Holland the only country you refer to in its English form?

I think it's still a big scalp. There might be one or two Slovakian self loathers who are on the forums moaning about Spain clearly being past it on the evidence of their WC showing but I'd hazard a wild guess that most people are happy.

Equally I'd hazard a wild guess that Tets' point is that lesser teams can beat big teams do we should take encouragement from that rather than throwing in the towel before a ball is kicked.

Holland isn't a country, it's essentially a Province. The good people of Northern Netherlands (Friesland) get especially miffed by the term Holland.

I had a good look at the second half, and it was painfully obvious that Spain were going to equalise; Slovakia kept retreating, and retreating, to the point where from a goalkick the SLovakian centre backs were about 20 yds from the penalty box, with Hamsik the furthest forward. The crazy thing was as soon as Spain equalised, Slovakia went back on the front foot. Madness Ted. The winner from Slovakia was a peach of a move, even if Casillas was atrocious trying to save it.

DeLorean

10/10/2014, 8:39 AM

Don't think he could be blamed for the winner but it was like he was actively trying to get out of the way of the opener. If it was Bruce Grobbelaar, there would be some serious questions asked.

Kingdom

10/10/2014, 8:50 AM

Don't think he could be blamed for the winner but it was like he was actively trying to get out of the way of the opener. If it was Bruce Grobbelaar, there would be some serious questions asked.

You just couldn't let me go, could you? This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You truly are incorruptible, aren't you? You won't kill me out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness. And I won't kill you because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever.

I repectfully disagree :o

I actually felt sorry for him for the first goal; should he have saved it? yes, but it took a horrid swerve just after Pique or Juanfran (I think) stuck out the leg to try and block. There was definitely no full-on deflection, like Germany vs us for Khedira's opener, but I wonder did the ball move slightly due to the proximity of the out-stretched leg to the flight path of the ball. You could see he was trying to change direction, but got it horribly wrong.
Whereas for the winner, the header was straight at him, and I would have expected a keeper of his stature to have touched it at least.

It's horrible to see a stellar career such as his go downhill, a similar feeling I had watching Marc S� for our bogballers, but thankfully that righted itself correctly in the end ;)

DeLorean

10/10/2014, 9:13 AM

Kingdom

10/10/2014, 10:35 AM

The winner was a header down into the ground from close range, all he could do was spread himself and hope it hit him. The quality of the cross meant he was scrambling across his goal also. I would accept that the swerve was a factor in the first goal but still a brutal attempt at saving it. There's actually another thread for Euro qualifiers in World Football. (http://foot.ie/threads/193731-Euro-qualifying-thread?p=1783184#post1783184) I suspect this will keep happening though, as my suggestion of moving the thread fell on deaf ears (blind eyes?) :)

It didn't hit the ground until after it crossed the line, and he was on the 6yd line outside the line with the post, but I appreciate it was a difficult header to save. I put it this way, if Forde concedes that type of goal on Tuesday, I would be expecting Westwood to save it. :-)

ArdeeBhoy

10/10/2014, 10:52 AM

is Holland the only country you refer to in its English form?

Actually, it's what the Dutch refer to it as, well all their fans I've met since the last time we played in Gelsenkirchen...

TheOneWhoKnocks

10/10/2014, 11:26 AM

Hopefully, McGoldrick, Bamford, Grealish, Crowley, Noble, Kane and Christie all come on board soon. It will be great to have new options. Great move by O'Neill to bring in Lenihen too. Always nice to see a fresh face in the squad. It's amazing how Wikipedia has become a source of info on here, some people never learn!

What Christie might mean for Ireland is that Coleman could move into right midfield if necessary. Having two players who can attack as well as defend would certainly strengthen the team. If only Christie could play at left back!

Forgive me. He played for Coventry the season they got relegated from the Championship and he has played two seasons where they toiled in League One. Now he's set for a call up on the back of ten League games. I just don't see the logic of going through the fuss of bringing him in as back up to Coleman and O'Brien when Matt Doherty has played U-19 and U-21 with merit and has as much PL, Championship and L1 experience. Even Richard Keogh can play that position.

Grealish is not going to come on board soon. Crowley is years away from playing Intl. football at any level. Bamford and Kane have declared no interest in playing for us. Noble clearly does not have the right attitude.

That leaves McGoldrick. Hopefully he comes on board and challenges Keane, Long, Doyle, Murphy, Stokes and Walters. The more the merrier - though he wouldn't/shouldn't take overtake any of them yet.

ArdeeBhoy

10/10/2014, 11:31 AM

Doyle's surely finished at international level? And Robbie has another year max.

TheOneWhoKnocks

10/10/2014, 11:35 AM

p2011

10/10/2014, 11:49 AM

i don't think hoolahan has any real role to play in the bigger games. he gives the ball away too easily and is not able to win it back. for every 1 good ball there's a ball lost.

This really is a very strange opinion, and probably symptomatic of all that is wrong with football on these isles.

Hoolahan is the most comfortable on the ball of all our players and generally turns us from a "hoofball, treat the ball like a hot potato" team into a team that can keep the ball for more than a few seconds. Nobody thinks he's a worldbeater, but he can receive the ball, turn, create himself some space and pick a pass.

Sure, he might try a defence-splitting pass that doesn't come off every so often, but that's the definition of a defence-splitting pass.... it's high risk. Other than that he's about the best we have at keeping possession. I really fail to see how anyone could suggest the complete opposite.

As regards winning it back: I watched the Oman game on the TV with Keith Andrews as co-commentator. He said Wes is great at pressing and, more importantly, at knowing when to press and when to hold back. He also said Hoolahan is a surprisingly tenacious tackler.

ArdeeBhoy

10/10/2014, 11:52 AM

Leaving club form aside (and he has earned a PL move on the back of a good spell with QPR), Doyle has shown he still has what it takes at Intl. level. Keane is on his last legs but he's going to start for the foreseeable future.

We don't know if McGoldrick will adapt to Intl. football. We know it suits Doyle.
Really, love to see him back to his form of 5 years ago, but suspect it won't ever happen.
When was his last decent game for us? Estonia 3 years ago?

IsMiseSean

10/10/2014, 12:57 PM

Holland isn't a country, it's essentially a Province. The good people of Northern Netherlands (Friesland) get especially miffed by the term Holland.

I remember Bill calling out Giles & Dunphy for referring to them as Holland during the WC. Apparently someone complained to RTE....

tetsujin1979

10/10/2014, 1:06 PM

I remember Bill calling out Giles & Dunphy for referring to them as Holland during the WC. Apparently someone complained to RTE....
didn't Bill apologise, and then someone contacted RTE saying it wasn't offensive? I could be wrong though.

jbyrne

10/10/2014, 1:06 PM

I remember Bill calling out Giles & Dunphy for referring to them as Holland during the WC. Apparently someone complained to RTE....

sure many dutch fans refer to the team as Holland

DeLorean

10/10/2014, 1:15 PM

Probably those in the Holland provinces. Yeah, Bill apologised and a while later Dunphy referred to them as Holland again. Bill corrected him and Dunphy laughed saying something along the lines of "They'll always be Holland to me Bill". Bill, foreseeing a potential sh!t storm, said "ah no Eamon, call them The Netherlands".

North & South Holland are two of twelve provinces that make up The Netherlands. They are the most densely populated but you can see why it must be a bit insulting to those that make up the other ten provinces. It would probably be like Ireland being called Leinster. More here- (http://www.holland.com/us/tourism/article/netherlands-vs-holland-1.htm)

Kingdom

10/10/2014, 1:21 PM

That's pretty much it. Without looking at the link, Holland is more or less the area around Amsterdam, The Hague and Rotterdam, so the analogy of calling Ireland "Leinster" is a very good one.

IsMiseSean

10/10/2014, 1:25 PM

didn't Bill apologise, and then someone contacted RTE saying it wasn't offensive? I could be wrong though.

Ah maybe that was it...

Stuttgart88

10/10/2014, 1:45 PM

Except don't the Dutch fans sing "Jup Holland Jup"?

I knew that technically Holland isn't the name of the country but isn't it pretty much accepted that the two are interchangeable? I'm pretty sure I've heard the Dutch themselves do it in normal conversation.

ArdeeBhoy

10/10/2014, 2:21 PM

Er, like I said...

tricky_colour

10/10/2014, 6:33 PM

40th in the world ranked Slovakia beat 8th ranked Spain tonight at home, they lead 1-0, before Spain equalised until a late winner from Stoch made it 2-1
well now, isn't that something

they seem to have gone downhill a bit, they 're not the team that walloped us.

TheOneWhoKnocks

10/10/2014, 7:33 PM

Netherlands 0-1 down at home to Kazakhstan.
Italy drawing 0-0 against Azerbaijan.

Approaching H-T.

Think it would be ridiculous to expect a walloping of Gibraltar on a silver platter when you see teams like Spain, Netherlands and Italy results/scores this week. Then again, there shouldn't be a reason why we can't spring a surprise on Germany either.

There are no black and white lines. Part of the reason why we have such a miserly record against teams like Germany - even compared to our neighbors - is because we are overawed by them and it reflects itself in player performances, strategy and inability to close out games.

If Slovakia and f***ing Kazakhstan can do it why can't we? As bad as Ward is and Whelan is, they have a far inferior talent pool to us.

ArdeeBhoy

10/10/2014, 9:05 PM

Just bumping this thread...

ArdeeBhoy

10/10/2014, 9:14 PM

Except Holland & Italy both win, plus both have a reputation with their fans, for being complacent. Germany, in their own backyard, surely, won't be.

Slovakia's was a good result, but it's obvious as Tricky suggested, Espana are in at least a short-term decline.

gastric

11/10/2014, 1:55 AM

Forgive me. He played for Coventry the season they got relegated from the Championship and he has played two seasons where they toiled in League One. Now he's set for a call up on the back of ten League games. I just don't see the logic of going through the fuss of bringing him in as back up to Coleman and O'Brien when Matt Doherty has played U-19 and U-21 with merit and has as much PL, Championship and L1 experience. Even Richard Keogh can play that position.

Grealish is not going to come on board soon. Crowley is years away from playing Intl. football at any level. Bamford and Kane have declared no interest in playing for us. Noble clearly does not have the right attitude.

That leaves McGoldrick. Hopefully he comes on board and challenges Keane, Long, Doyle, Murphy, Stokes and Walters. The more the merrier - though he wouldn't/shouldn't take overtake any of them yet.

It is great to see you acknowledge that a player of McGoldrick's age could be an asset to Ireland. But, how can you claim that Lenihen should be considered on his form for Cork, but dismiss Christie as he played for Coventry? There is no logic in such an argument, in fact it could be argued that playing for Coventry is at a higher level than playing for Cork. Quoting statistics too in comparing Doherty to Christie is silly. Have you actually watched Christie? As a long suffering Coventry fan, I have watched him play at that great venue Sixfields and he is a young and relatively inexperienced player. I don't think he is completely ready for international football yet, but he has all the abilities to be a good footballer. No one except possibly you seems to believe that players who declare for us will simply walk into the Irish team, what most seem to feel on here is that it just increases our options. I wish you should see this rather than indulge in paranoia aboutplayers being dropped and it affecting squad morale, O'Neill and Keane are experienced managers who know how teams work.

backstothewall

11/10/2014, 9:14 AM

Ultimately once a player is playing in England at a decent level, whether he has moved from LOI or come through the ranks, capping him aids his development, increases his profile in a busy division, and increases his chances of a move to a club at a higher level.

For a player who is still over here if he is getting good enough he will be one of the best players in the LOI. Scouts from the clubs will be aware of him, and crucially the players he is competing against for a move are all Irish. If we can do anything to load the deck for a lad by giving him international experience, there is no benefit for us to do it for someone at the expense of other Irish players.

tetsujin1979

11/10/2014, 10:01 AM

they seem to have gone downhill a bit, they 're not the team that walloped us.
I was watching the game, on another night it would have been 5-2 to Spain. Slovakia spent most of the second half defending on the edge of their own penalty area, and watching Costa shank another shot straight at the keeper or into the crowd. He had a terrible game, no idea how he was left on for the full 90 minutes.
Slovakia had about five chances on the night, and scored two of them. It's football, sometimes these things happen.

and I've merged the two threads

TheOneWhoKnocks

11/10/2014, 10:40 AM

I'd take a lucky win or a brave loss over getting spanked any day of the week.

I have no problem with a smash and grab win even at the expense of a poor performance but we never get them.

DannyInvincible

11/10/2014, 11:00 AM

Ultimately once a player is playing in England at a decent level, whether he has moved from LOI or come through the ranks, capping him aids his development, increases his profile in a busy division, and increases his chances of a move to a club at a higher level.

Is this proven to be the case or is it just received wisdom? I think I remember Nigel Worthington talking about capping Irish League players for NI in the hope it would help raise their profile and perhaps engineer a big move for them. Big moves very rarely, if ever, transpired. I don't think such a consideration would way massively on the minds of scouts and analysts who have much more reliable stats and much more effective indicators of ability from which to judge players nowadays. Look at Sean St. Ledger, for example; he is a 29-year-old with 37 caps for us, yet he can't find a club at the minute. Not that I'm necessarily doubting his ability.

Stuttgart88

11/10/2014, 11:01 AM

I have no problem with a smash and grab win even at the expense of a poor performance but we never get them.
True. Having a goalie dive out of the way of a shot, or fluffing a back pass (Boruc in Windsor Park v Poland) always helps of course.

ArdeeBhoy

11/10/2014, 11:02 AM

I'd take a lucky win or a brave loss over getting spanked any day of the week.

I have no problem with a smash and grab win even at the expense of a poor performance but we never get them.

Except in our last international?

ArdeeBhoy

11/10/2014, 11:03 AM

Is this proven to be the case or is it just received wisdom? I think I remember Nigel Worthington talking about capping Irish League players for NI in the hope it would help raise their profile and perhaps engineer a big move for them. Big moves very rarely, if ever, transpired. I don't think such a consideration would way massively on the minds of scouts and analysts who have much more reliable stats and much more effective indicators of ability from which to judge a player nowadays. Look at Sean St. Ledger, for example; he is a 29-year-old with 37 caps for us, yet he can't find a club at the minute. Not that I'm necessarily doubting his ability.

Is he not still injured? And has barely played in the last year?

TheOneWhoKnocks

11/10/2014, 11:21 AM

Except in our last international?

I'm talking about smash and grab wins against any halfway decent opposition. We have constantly thrown away 3 points against teams of stature. Other teams ability to not panic and retreat like a turtle in the face of good opposition and close out results is admirable.

Likewise I have no problem believing wins against teams like Georgia aren't formalities. It was some of the strategic decisions which were absolutely maddening.

Nothing is black or white. We have got lucky against teams like Georgia and Macedonia plenty. Likewise, plenty of teams of stature have been left wondering how they took points off us/how their opposition commits seppuku so readily.

TheOneWhoKnocks

11/10/2014, 11:22 AM

True. Having a goalie dive out of the way of a shot, or fluffing a back pass (Boruc in Windsor Park v Poland) always helps of course.

Yes. And having a referee award you a goal when it shouldn't have been given due to offside helps as well; and Spain still couldn't get anything out of the game.

DannyInvincible

11/10/2014, 12:08 PM

Nothing is black or white.

That's unlike you.

We have got lucky against teams like Georgia and Macedonia plenty. Likewise, plenty of teams of stature have been left wondering how they took points off us/how their opposition commits seppuku so readily.

It's not as if we willingly commit suicide as a customary ritual. We habitually retreat and shut up shop, which so often has the effect of inviting pressure on. We can attempt to soak it up, but that can only last so long. Often, we pay the price. It's very difficult for an entire team to collectively and immediately shake itself out of such a malaise once it sets in. It's both physically tiring and mentally draining/nerve-wracking, which, in turn, only increases the potential of making an error or a slip-up. There's little mystery to it.

It's also unfair to put away victories against the likes of Georgia and Macedonia down to luck. They didn't just happen by chance. We ground out deserved victories by maintaining pressure up until the final whistle. That's how you score goals, whether they're late on not. Sometimes, you'll have bizarre one-off incidents, such as those Stutts highlights, but by and large, you create your own "luck".

TheOneWhoKnocks

11/10/2014, 12:47 PM

You can find something to admire in Ireland soaking up pressure and eking out victories against eg. Macedonia and Georgia but you damn Scotland with faint praise when they go to Germany and lose by slim margins. Strange.

Agree with what you said in the first paragraph. They say definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over again. It was more dangerous playing the way we did against eg. Austria in Dublin than the way we should have played and trying to go for the killer blow to give us some genuine breathing room. I could not understand the logic of it at all; invite them on us after they had already snuffed out that we were hesitant, unsure and mistake prone on the ball even when theoretically under no pressure, like in the build up to their first goal. Suicidal.

To try and close shop after 70-75 minutes is grand but we were doing it after going in front on 30-35 minutes of matches! You cannot sustain that.

Ironically when we were leading Italy 2-1 in Dublin, That was the one time Trapattoni had the players going gung-ho for no reason at all. Put the shutters up when it doesn't make sense and not when it does!

DannyInvincible

11/10/2014, 1:20 PM

You can find something to admire in Ireland soaking up pressure and eking out victories against eg. Macedonia and Georgia but you damn Scotland with faint praise when they go to Germany and lose by slim margins. Strange.

Results are ultimately what matters. I don't think I damned Scotland. They gave it a good shot, but came up short. I'd like if we tried something similar.

DeLorean

11/10/2014, 2:07 PM

Ironically when we were leading Italy 2-1 in Dublin, That was the one time Trapattoni had the players going gung-ho for no reason at all. Put the shutters up when it doesn't make sense and not when it does!

Yeah, I'm sure that was a result of Trap telling them to throw caution to the wind.

Stuttgart88

11/10/2014, 9:43 PM

I think I'll just retire from this forum for a while. DeLorean says everything I want to say anyway.

TheOneWhoKnocks

11/10/2014, 9:51 PM

I think I'll just retire from this forum for a while. DeLorean says everything I want to say anyway.

I see a lot of DeLorean and a little of me in you, Stutts.

Crosby87

11/10/2014, 11:04 PM

Congrats lads. Adam you need to merge these threads.
Also the Irish are up on an unexpected challenge from UNC right now, with the ability to move up the rankings again with #1 Florida State looming next sat night. Good times to be Irish. #2 Auburn losing late at #3 Miss St. Can Notre Dame hold on?

Kingdom

12/10/2014, 9:09 AM

I caught a piece with John O'Shea on the score.ie http://thescore.thejournal.ie/robbie-keane-ireland-gibraltar-1719280-Oct2014/

John O'Shea is no idiot, and I don't think he's capable of playing the dumb fool from the village routine. He makes reference to changing formation (three at the back) against Germany, and the chances of Keane starting, so it sounds like a definite game plan is in place for Germany.

Three at the back would be interesting, but there is no recognised or suitable wing-back in the squad on the right hand side. McClean would be a very good left wing-back. I'm very excited by the possibilities here - even if I recognise it's highly unlikely we'll deviate from the norm.

I hope Hoolahan is kept in the side, and I think McClean deserves to start in Gelsenskirchen despite the couple of acts of stupidity (now there is a proper village idiot) . Long and McGeady would make a good attacking quartet. Interestingly McClean was quite m
Behind them I was not impressed by Ward or Meyler, but there is no alternatives (certainly no alternatives that would make a drastic difference) so if we go with our traditional flat back 4 then we're probably going to be stuck with what we had against Gibraltar, and that terrifies me. Gibson was better than Hendrick last night, and has the required bite and passing that we'll need. Glenn Whelan is a banker to come back into the side.

---------------------------Forde----------------------------
-----------O'Shea----------Wilson-------------Clark-------
-- ? ----------------------Whelan---------------------McClean--
--------------Gibson-----------------------Hoolahan-------------
---------------------------McGeady-------------------------
-----------------------------Long----------------------------

or

---------------------------Forde----------------------------
-- Meyler--------- O'Shea ---------- Wilson ----------- Ward--
---------------------------Whelan----------------------------
-- McGeady -------Gibson------------Hoolahan -------McClean
-----------------------------Long----------------------------

I suspect Wes won't start though, with Quinn playing in his place.