Gibraltar (H) - Sat, 11th Oct. / Germany (A) - Tues, 14th Oct.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Those two would probably be better stand-ins...

And I'd be pessimistic if we had our strongest ever Irish team or even a notional Greatest Ever UI team...
Germany are World Champs and, er, 'half-decent'!

[Stuttgart88]

Just wondering why not picking two players was wrong if it would have no bearing on the outcome though. It'd be irrelevant rather than wrong!

[Charlie Darwin]

I think Ardee's point is that if we'd selected two players who didn't want to play for us earlier, then maybe now we'd be able to not call them up as replacements for Coleman and McCarthy.

[ArdeeBhoy]

More to do with the fact, they'd be 'better' than any other replacements.
Do keep up...

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd take Hendrick and O'Brien over Noble and Naughton even if they did want to play for us (they don't) but each to their own. If we're going to talk about English players who have no intention of declaring for Ireland then we might as well set our sights higher than two average players.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Except they're both (nearly always) injured...

The point is Naughton/Noble are eligible. Lots of other average players aren't!

[DannyInvincible]

How would we select eligible players who don't want to play for us though?

[DeLorean]

Hendrick was out for a few months last season but I don't think his injury record is too bad otherwise, few knocks here and there but nothing significant. Played and scored for Derby's U21's last night btw.

[DannyInvincible]

It was Martinez who was casting doubt over the participation of McCarthy and Coleman in the upcoming games: http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/champions-league/martinez-casts-doubt-over-fitness-of-coleman-and-mccarthy-1.1948195


Martinez today said McCarthy, along with defender Sylvain Distin, is “not too far away from being fully fit” but warned there is a “question mark” over both for Manchester United at Old Trafford on Sunday (12pm), and then added: “It is not going to be any later than after the international break.

“James has got a tightening of his quad. He has played a lot of football and he is feeling a bit fatigued. It’s not a real injury and I am not concerned by that.”

On Coleman, Martinez took a slightly harder line and suggested a rest during the international break, when Ireland take on Gibraltar on October 11th and Germany away on October 14th, would benefit the Killybegs man.

“Séamus Coleman had concussion against Wolfsburg but then he suffered a little bit of a soft tissue problem. I don’t think it will be too long [before he is fully fit]. I think the international break will clear those injuries.”

[ArdeeBhoy]

How would we select eligible players who don't want to play for us though?

Lots of eligible ones who don't either though.
Threads passim.

[tetsujin1979]

German 20-man squad announced: http://www.dfb.de/news/detail/bellarabi-erstmals-zur-nationalmannschaft-107187/

interesting quotes from Loew:

Löw lobt die Iren: "Sie geben nie auf"
Zum Spiel gegen Irland sagt Löw: "Die Iren haben mit Martin O’Neill einen neuen Trainer. Sie sind - wie wir - mit einem Sieg in die Qualifikation gestartet. Wir wissen, dass es sehr unangenehm sein kann, gegen sie zu spielen. Viele von ihnen spielen in der Premier League. Sie sind kampfstark, geben nie auf. Mich begeistert die Fußballkultur der Iren, ihre Leidenschaft, ihre bedingungslose Hingabe, ihr Fußballherz. Ich erwarte ein sehr intensives Spiel und freue mich auch auf die Stimmung in Gelsenkirchen."

according to google translate:


Loew praises the Irish: "never give up"
To match against Ireland says Löw: "The Irish people have with a new coach Martin O'Neill you are - like us - started with a victory in the qualification We know that it can be very unpleasant to play against them, many... of them play in the Premier League. they are strong in the tackle, never give up. excites me about the football culture of the Irish people, their passion, their unconditional devotion, their football heart. I expect a very intense game and am looking forward to the atmosphere in Gelsenkirchen. "

[Olé Olé]

Wow. Fair play to Mr. Loew, that's a very complimentary analysis. I really hope we fulfill his perception of us.

[Charlie Darwin]

He called us Die Iren! How dare he!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Er, it's Deutsch?

Maybe he's confusing us with someone else...

[Charlie Darwin]

Yes AB, it's Deutsch. I can't believe I missed that.

[ArdeeBhoy]

So why quote it? Tets had already done a translation...that just seems a bit pointless.

[Closed Account]

So why quote it? Tets had already done a translation...that just seems a bit pointless.


http://media.giphy.com/media/zSYrX29fmhKBq/giphy.gif

[Kingdom]

Except they're both (nearly always) injured...

The point is Naughton/Noble are eligible. Lots of other average players aren't!

Technically they're not eligible until they apply for a passport, which I presume they haven't done yet. The meet the criteria for a passport, correct, but they're not eligible, therefore cannot be called up. Grealish is different I assume as he surely needs a passport to play for the under- 21's already. Therefore he could conceivably be called up.

[Charlie Darwin]

Oh God, you'll get Danny started again :)

[DannyInvincible]

Something about Coleman/McCarthy being out for these two games, not it matters overly, though couldn't find a working link...

So all those people saying we shouldn't have called up Naughton & Noble could well be wrong...

Naughton and Noble haven't been selected as they have no interest in playing for us; not because some supporters haven't taken to them, Noble in particular. And they're not unwanted because their ability is in doubt; plenty recognise their talent or potential utility. They're not wanted because they haven't displayed any interest whatsoever in representing us. In fact, Noble has been pretty explicit about his intention not to play for us; he wants to play for England. The only one in Noble's camp playing with the notion of him playing for us is his agent. If he did declare and proved himself worthy, the general tune might change, but it's no surprise very few don't really take to such mercenary gamesmanship. I sense most supporters would rather a team of dedicated players with positive squad morale, even if possibly individually weaker on a broad technical front or with lesser strength in depth, than a team featuring pretenders and chancers such as Noble or Jermaine Pennant.


Lots of eligible ones who don't either though.

Lots of eligible players don't want to play for us? Is that not the problem I've just identified as being largely outside of our control or am I misreading your point? No matter what Gary McAllister might think, we can't (and don't) coerce players into playing for us.


He called us Die Iren! How dare he!

At least he didn't praise our "rugby heart" amongst the fighting-Irish clichés!


Technically they're not eligible until they apply for a passport, which I presume they haven't done yet. The meet the criteria for a passport, correct, but they're not eligible, therefore cannot be called up. Grealish is different I assume as he surely needs a passport to play for the under- 21's already. Therefore he could conceivably be called up.

If I may... :)

Eligibility stems from held nationality (and the fulfilling of any other relevant criteria); not necessarily from a held passport. A passport merely offers evidence of a player's nationality and, hence, supports his eligibility. It's simply the most convenient and reliable document to be used for verification purposes, so FIFA generally stipulate the use of passports for such purposes. IFA players don't require British passports to represent NI, for example, but they still must be (verified) British citizens. FIFA allow the IFA to verify their players' eligibility via other forms, I understand. Some of them possess Irish passports only.

You're correct that Naughton and Noble aren't technically eligible for us though. To be eligible to play for us, they would have to put in motion a request to switch via FIFA. Once FIFA approve any request, it can be effected by representing a new association in a competitive fixture (or perhaps a game of lesser status; I don't think we've ever been able to work out exactly what might and mightn't effect a switch).

Sorry, Charlie. I couldn't help it! :p

[Kingdom]

So on one level, I'm correct? Small; far away.

[geysir]

So on one level, I'm correct? Small; far away.

You took a blind shot on goal, it was going well wide of the mark until it took a wicked deflection for a corner.

A player born to an irish born parent is automatically eligible to play for Ireland, as they are automatically an Irish national at birth.
EG, harry Kane does not have to apply for irish citizenship as he is an irish citizen at birth. His choice is just whether he wants to activate it or not.
He is an irish national whether or not he applies for an irish passport, just the same as any irish born person who does not have a passport.

An english born player with only an irish grandparent has to apply for Irish citizenship, he is not an irish national at birth. He just has the right to apply for irish citizenship but he is not regarded as irish until his application has been successfully processed.

[tetsujin1979]

Squad reduced to 27: http://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/martin-oneill-names-27-man-squad-to-face-gibraltar

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Baffling how Delaney isn't getting in these squads.

I suppose if it's Delaney and not Coleman, Reid or Hoolahan being ostracised then it's progress, but I would rather have Delaney than Keogh at the back in the event of an emergency against a team like Germany. It could literally make a significant difference to our goals against column. At least we know Delaney can keep a handle on players like Lukaku and Suarez on a weekly basis.

[Charlie Darwin]

Randolph, Kelly, McShane, Duffy, Delaney Green, McCarthy, Reid, Cox and Sammon left out. Assume that means McCarthy and Reid haven't recovered from injury.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

McCarthy is out? Who will play in midfield now?

[Charlie Darwin]

McCarthy is out? Who will play in midfield now?
It seems he is being left out for Gibraltar and will continue to be monitored with Germany in mind. I assume Gibson would be the most-experienced choice to replace him.

[Stuttgart88]

Randolph, Kelly, McShane, Duffy, Delaney Green, McCarthy, Reid, Cox and Sammon left out. Assume that means McCarthy and Reid haven't recovered from injury.
O'Neill was quoted recently saying that Reid needs injections to play, hinting that he could turn up if he really wanted to.

[Kingdom]

I would hope that it's a case of leaving Mac out in order to let the body heal ahead of Germany. That would be the sensible approach. If he's not fit for Germany, it's a huge blow.
Disappointed for Delaney, as I think he is comfortably ahead of Keogh, Pearce, and I have to say Wilson too. Also, from looking at that list, it would seem Given is backup keeper. I think that will be a poor decision if it's the case. DOn't understand why there are 4 keepers in the squad. Surely, too, keeping on Duffy to get him acquainted with the setup, wouldn't have hurt.

[the doc]

I would hope that it's a case of leaving Mac out in order to let the body heal ahead of Germany. That would be the sensible approach. If he's not fit for Germany, it's a huge blow.
Disappointed for Delaney, as I think he is comfortably ahead of Keogh, Pearce, and I have to say Wilson too. Also, from looking at that list, it would seem Given is backup keeper. I think that will be a poor decision if it's the case. DOn't understand why there are 4 keepers in the squad. Surely, too, keeping on Duffy to get him acquainted with the setup, wouldn't have hurt.

Feck sake!

Keogh, Pearce and Clark ahead of Damo.

Even Andrea Bocelli can see Damos the better player.

Think we've brought a Pig in a Poke with this management set up.

[Stuttgart88]

Delaney the only issue for me. I can't understand it at all.

I think I said after Georgia that Coleman, McCarthy and McGeady should sit out the Gibraltar game as there's no need to risk injury. I'd probably add O'Shea too, even if that means picking some iffy CBs against Gibraltar.

Hopefully McCarthy will be back for Germany.


For me the first real acid test of the MON era will be whether he persists with Walters wide in Germany. If he does I'll be livid.

I hope he gives Long and Doyle time on the pitch against Gib. Keane can't put in the effort we'll need, nor has he the pace. By all means bring him on if we need a goal in the second half.

I'm glad to see Murphy there too. His club form is good and he deserves his place.

Did Clark play left back in Cologne?

[Charlie Darwin]

Kelly was left back in Cologne, as far as I remember. Strangely enough, we went with two left-footed centre halves in Delaney and Clark.

[DannyInvincible]

Delaney should be in there without doubt. He'd be a nailed-on starter for many; not merely a squad member. He's had a few run-ins with Roy throughout his career (http://www.setanta.com/ie/damien-delaney-almost-quit-english-football-because-of-roy-keane/) - once turning up late to training at Ipswich due to being caught speeding and then blaming his "unreasonable boss" for his speeding in court - but you'd imagine the management would be professional enough to see past such things now if it would be in the best interests of the team to have Delaney there?

If McCarthy doesn't recover in time for Germany, it'll be a big blow, although we do have competent cover in Gibson.

[Stuttgart88]

Gibraltar:

------------Westwood-----------
Meyler-Wilson-Pearce or Keogh- Clark
-----Gibson---Whelan-----
Stokes-------Hoolahan--------McClean
---------------Long----------

Can Pilkington play on the right?


Germany:

----------Westwood
Coleman - OShea - Wilson - Clark
------McCarthy - Whelan
McGeady --Hoolahan -McClean
---------Long-------

[Stuttgart88]

Kelly was left back in Cologne, as far as I remember. Strangely enough, we went with two left-footed centre halves in Delaney and Clark.
And both did fine on the night. I remember Clark playing, just couldn't remember where. Thanks.

[SwanVsDalton]

Well Delaney evidently should be in the squad. Not sure what he's done wrong.

I find the four goalkeepers thing fairly bizarre. Actually makes me think Given is there less as back-up and more as a player-coach. To have his influence over three other goalkeepers.


Did Clark play left back in Cologne?

He did, hit the bar too. [Edit: Well corrected CD, I assumed it was left-back]

I'd play a totally different defence but try and establish a unit from thereon for Germany. That'll probably mean Whelan and either Gibson or Hendrick, with McGeady, McClean, Long and Hoolahan. Let them pile forward and, hopefully, score a pile of goals to aid confidence. Withdraw Long, Hoolahan and McGeady after an hour and throw on some combination of Stokes, Doyle, Brady, Pilkington, Quinn...whoever the most likely options off the bench are against Germany.

We might be playing the football equivalent of chalk and cheese, but I'd be all for telling several attacking players that they are the main men for Gelsenkirchen and fill your boots against Gibraltar. This side needs confidence any which way it can get it.

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, good points.

There really is no excuse for not picking attacking players for Germany. There's no way we'll outfox them and keep them away from goal like Trap used to try to do. It's asking for trouble.

Best approach is to pick some quick attacking players and hope to capitalise on their vulnerability on the break.

[Paddy Garcia]

McCarthy is out of the squad. Apparently a small chance he will make the Germany game.

[Stuttgart88]

Is McCarthy essential for Germany? He has yet to show his best club form for Ireland.

Anyway, one of Hendrick, Meyler or Gibson will benefit. I named Gibson above but I was impressed by Hendrick's mobility against Italy. Whoever he plans to start in Germany should also start in Dublin.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

With Hendrick yet to start since coming back from injury and Meyler harshly cast aside at Hull, we could do with Gibson getting a start this weekend but I'm sure Besic or someone else will get the nod. Stephen Quinn could be the man to benefit either but even he has lost his place in the Hull team despite a fine start to the season - as Huddlestone and Livermore can seemingly do no wrong.

I have long resigned myself to the fact that Walters will continue to start at this stage. And no doubt he will look even more sluggish than he usually does with a lack of first team football and match fitness. Brady, McClean, Pilkington, Long, Stokes, Doyle amongst others would offer more anywhere on the wing or up front.

[Stuttgart88]

Green just scores. O'Neill hasn't a clue :)

[liamoo11]

with coleman out will meyler play right full?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

So to recap.....

Coleman and McCarthy potentially out injured. O'Brien unavailable. Reid unavailable. Meyler not playing. Hendrick just back from injury. Gibson just back from injury/not playing. Hoolahan off form. Long being played out of position/under pressure to deliver on transfer fee and take mantle at Intl. level. Ward has started one league game all season and that's at CM.

Not ideal... but McGeady is playing reasonably, Keane is banging them in in MLS for whatever that's worth, McClean has generally impressed since coming back from injury and could feasibly take Walters place. Our starting CB's regular are starting regularly (although Wilson looks prone to mishaps).

[Stuttgart88]

What position is Long playing? Is he wide right of midfield or his he wide right as part of a front three? I suspect the latter, and it's probably not a bad place for him. Pelle seems to be the main goalscorer at Southamptonso that takes some heat off Long, as long as he is at least playing well.

Let's see. The form book isn't good but they're fit players and all have at least played some first team football this season. Gibraltar might take the cobwebs off those needing game time.

That's the optimistic way of seeing things anyway!

[DannyInvincible]

According to Peter Staunton of Goal.com, Martinez has confirmed Coleman will miss both qualifiers: https://twitter.com/petermstaunton/status/518756535225581572


Roberto Martinez confirms Seamus Coleman not fit enough for Ireland qualifiers despite being named in squad yesterday

B*llocks.

[DannyInvincible]

Here was Ciarán Ó Raghallaigh's take on it yesterday: https://twitter.com/Ciaran_O/status/518385306425257984


Interesting that Roberto Martinez says James McCarthy (& Seamus Coleman) will have "late fitness tests" but McC out of IRL sq, SC in.

Obviously they failed their late fitness tests, but if they were considered "50-50 enough" to have them before today's Everton game at Old Trafford, can they be ruled out with such certainty for the Germany game, which is nine days away? I don't know the ins and outs of the fitness tests, of course, but you'd imagine there must still be even a slight chance both could be fit?

[Crosby87]

Chaps who would win in an actual fight between Mourinho and Wenger?

[ArdeeBhoy]

:confused: Crosby...

Luckily it doesn't matter who plays in these two games, but the game in November is far far more important...

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Yeah. You're right. The win against Gibraltar is guaranteed. Just look at the way we blitzed Kazakhstan and Faroe Islands away with no problems.

And the players should just treat the Germany game as a friendly and sing the Fields of Athenry and have a few cans with the fans after the game.

Sure Scotland had a competitive game with Germany but that's Scotland. We're just Ireland like. Have a few cans and it'll be alright. We might get a draw against Poland if we're lucky.

[Crosby87]

They got in a shoving match ardee.