Republic of Ireland V Oman 3rd September 2014 & Georgia 7th September 2014

[Cymro]

Wait, you're discussing mathematics now? This is a football forum, just draw an optically wobbly (possibly, but not certainly, deflected) line under the matter and get yourselves a drink. Then you can discuss whether the line you've drawn is actually not 100% straight, or if it's just the beer talking.

[osarusan]

Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left.

[ArdeeBhoy]

That goal was Ward's fault, as usual...

[Charlie Darwin]

Which other goals were Ward's fault? Kazakhstan was his fault for giving away the free kick (then the entire defence screwed up) but overall his deficiencies have more been letting players in behind him and, usually, cleaning up in a haphazard fashion. He's more of a player who makes you nervous than a player who actually costs you goals.

[tricky_colour]

Odd things was bother Ward and O'Shea backed off the guy, O'Shea first, which might excuse Ward somewhat,
but he continue backing off until he lined up to shoot. I think even watching it live I was thinking, don't back
off there, because I smelt danger. I think maybe they were thinking about not leaving huge gaps in front of goal
and getting more central and not expecting a shot from there. However they were very wrong, sloppy defending.
I am generally OK with Stephen Ward though, he has a decent all round game, other options there are more
one dimensional. He started out as striker I think and hence is not so defensively minded, not a natural in that
position.

[MeathDrog]

Odd things was bother Ward and O'Shea backed off the guy, O'Shea first, which might excuse Ward somewhat,
but he continue backing off until he lined up to shoot. I think even watching it live I was thinking, don't back
off there, because I smelt danger. I think maybe they were thinking about not leaving huge gaps in front of goal
and getting more central and not expecting a shot from there. However they were very wrong, sloppy defending.
I am generally OK with Stephen Ward though, he has a decent all round game, other options there are more
one dimensional. He started out as striker I think and hence is not so defensively minded, not a natural in that
position.

Is this an attempt at a poem?

[tricky_colour]

Is this an attempt at a poem?

It is a poem, granted I have not found a publisher yet.

Still haggling over fees.

[DeLorean]

Fair play Tricky & DI... if Forde showed that kind of decication he would have saved it, deflection or no deflection :p

[Stuttgart88]

O'Shea says it was deflected.

I'm not that critical of Ward in this situation. In hindsight every goal is someone's fault. Every goal is preventable in theory.

[paul_oshea]

Overall I was very disappointed with our performance, we held possession but lacked any incision or decisiveness or want. We were very lucky to get out of there with a win. The players were so laboured in their approach, whenever we broke it was held up and played back most of the time. We should be using the pace of the players we possess to fix this, you don't have to go all out attack but there is a counter-balance.

Seamie Coleman is nowhere near the player for us that he is for Everton. Thats not to say he wont be but he doesnt offer the same attacking threat and he is a little more shakey in the defensive duties, his crosses were hit and miss, some very good some poor. I think O'Shea looked the most competent back for us the last day without doing an awful lot.

People are saying Wilson was poor, he did make a couple of mistakes but he made 4 defensive headers in the first half that got us the ball back as he placed them, he also took the ball well on the ground a few times and kept us trying to play football out from the back - but a Defender who can play the ball is all well and good but if he can't defend then he really isn't worth much. It seems we have some defenders who can play a bit of ball but can't do their main job well. I still think Wilson is decent though. He doesnt give me the same jitters as say Ward or Forde.

Stutts and I agreed upon Wards best position during the oman game, its halfway between the 18 yard box and the halfway line, right out on the touchline. He looked ok the last day because they were so poor going forward, and he offered something for us in attack as he shirked his defensive duties. He should have got closer for the goal, I think he is ok for these games but against Germany(or even poland and scotland) he is going to get found out again as usual. His positional sense is so poor, he gets pulled in and time and again ball after ball is hit over his head - any winger worth their salt in speed would have beaten him time and again sunday.

Forde is really awful, he doenst inspire any confidence and I got the feeling, as others did with me watching that the Defense don't fully trust him. I know O'shea says it was deflected but even if it was I dont think it made a huge difference in where it was going only in the dip, forde was just out as though expecting a cross or a ball across the 18 yard box, he was completely caught unaware and doesnt have the ability or speed to correct himself. A better keeper would have certainly got to it, maybe not saved it but Forde was way out of position - again this isnt clear on the tele as you cant see the position he picked up. He was all over the shop.

I think the whole shakeyness could point to the keeper also. We never looked as shakey with Shay in the backline giving orders and organising his defenders. Its an interesting theory that the confidence stems from 1 right the way through. For 2 years we have looked very poor vulnerable and nervy at the back.

I think O'Neill gave them too much respect and was a bit weak/over cautious. I was very disappointed with the approach especially in the last 20 when we were not creating anything, nothing. He brought off keane and didnt bring on hoolahan, we really need some incisive, through ball passing. We were playing the ball around the houses over and back, yet he thought to leave hoolahan the one man who can play that game, and keane the best person to make the runs and receive the passes, or just short interchanges with HOolahan. These lads were very poor, and O'Neill gave their midfield specifically too much respect. We could have been 2 or so up by the 70th with the right approach.

Midfield was ok, Mcgeady obviously had a great game his crosses were 25% better than normal as well. I don't think anyone stood out really, quinn did decent lots of running. McCarthy never got into it. Whelan was Whelan giving a masterclass in passing the ball backwards. I dont remember when i was last so bored watching them.

We lacked this Sunday http://balls.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/york.gif

[paul_oshea]

Robbie unfortunately is definitely not able play the loan striker role anymore. His pace has gone completely, the small bit he had, without someone playing in the hole behind him he can't be isolated up front he just isnt suited to that game now.

[ArdeeBhoy]

'loan'? Surely not...

[KK77]

Poor performance overall but a huge three points. I thought Ward was poor for the goal we conceeded. I wouldn't have him near the team myself but a lot of different managers play him so there you go.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ward is terrible and should never play again...not that it'll matter v. the Gib theme park or Deutschland.

[OwlsFan]

Just going back to the best goals debate (as opposed to favourite which for me is McAteer vs Holland), the following must come close:

Aldridge vs Mexico (lovely build-up and superb finish) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvwC0vsJcjI

Glen Whelan (yes Whelan who apparently can't kick a ball) v Italy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OWV5omYkyQ

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ronnie Whelan v.Russia in '88, easily Ireland's 'best ever' goal IMHO!

Or Mark Kennedy v. the Yugos...

[Fixer82]

Seamie Coleman is nowhere near the player for us that he is for Everton. [/B] Thats not to say he wont be but he doesnt offer the same attacking threat and he is a little more shakey in the defensive duties, his crosses were hit and miss, some very good some poor. I think O'Shea looked the most competent back for us the last day without doing an awful lot. http://balls.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/york.gif

bang on

[OwlsFan]

Ronnie Whelan v.Russia in '88, easily Ireland's 'best ever' goal IMHO!.

Didn't see it. Was watching the wave going round the ground ;)

[tricky_colour]

O'Shea says it was deflected.

I'm not that critical of Ward in this situation. In hindsight every goal is someone's fault. Every goal is preventable in theory.

It looks like it was deflected, not sure it was, I think the ball can get misshapen when it is struck sometimes
causing it to more very oddly, it seems to start out curling to the right then curl back left then curl right again and dip,
most of that movement when it was no where near anyone. It was a bit of a freak goal.

[edit - transpose left and right for the above to make sense, I always get hem wrong]

[Stuttgart88]

Some other games tonight:

Wales, with a genuine world talent and several players who'd get into our team easily enough needed a late goal against Andorra to win 2-1. They were sh1tting their pants. Bale, Ramsey, Allen, Ledley, Chester and Williams are all players I'd take.

Turkey lose 3-0 in Iceland
Croatia struggle to beat Malta at home
Bosnia lose 2-1 at home to Cyprus
Dutch lose in Czech Rep. (not a disaster)

It doesn't excuse sloppiness in Georgia but it does add context. International games are hard to win at this stage of the season. Even more reason to ease off for the time being.

[the doc]

Wilson's fault anyway. Too close to his man on a long ball. Can think of 4 times in the match he did that.

Willo isn't the best at CB, will cost us if Mad Martin persists in playing him there.

Yes I know he plays there for Stoke, but not his best position by far.

[Closed Account]

Willo isn't the best at CB, will cost us if Mad Martin persists in playing him there.

Yes I know he plays there for Stoke, but not his best position by far.
Agreed. Best of a bad bunch at the moment.

[tricky_colour]

Some other games tonight:

Wales, with a genuine world talent and several players who'd get into our team easily enough needed a late goal against Andorra to win 2-1. They were sh1tting their pants. Bale, Ramsey, Allen, Ledley, Chester and Williams are all players I'd take.

Turkey lose 3-0 in Iceland
Croatia struggle to beat Malta at home
Bosnia lose 2-1 at home to Cyprus
Dutch lose in Czech Rep. (not a disaster)

It doesn't excuse sloppiness in Georgia but it does add context. International games are hard to win at this stage of the season. Even more reason to ease off for the time being.


Turkey losing 3-0 to Iceland is a real shocker.

[tetsujin1979]

Turkey losing 3-0 to Iceland is a real shocker.
is it? Iceland got to the play offs for the World Cup, drew with Croatia, before losing the away leg.
Turkey only beat Estonia, Andorra and Hungary away from home in their qualifiers, and finished fourth in their (admittedly strong) group

[Charlie Darwin]

The worst part is we're going to hear all about it tomorrow morning from geysir.

[tricky_colour]

is it? Iceland got to the play offs for the World Cup, drew with Croatia, before losing the away leg.
Turkey only beat Estonia, Andorra and Hungary away from home in their qualifiers, and finished fourth in their (admittedly strong) group


I am thinking more long term and more along the population lines.
Iceland's population is about 320,000 which is pretty tiny, Turkey is over 200 time as much, 76 million!!
You could get Iceland's population into Dublin 3 times for example.
And they are about 16th the population of Ireland so that is some achievement.
Ireland have not beaten Turkey in 24 years, they did some how win 5-0 in 1990 though.

[Crosby87]

Turkey had chicken before the game.

[tricky_colour]

On a FIFA points per head of population they must be the best country on the planet.

[NeverFeltBetter]

The Bosnian loss is a bigger shocker to me. Has the World Cup performance messed them up?

[tricky_colour]

The Bosnian loss is a bigger shocker to me. Has the World Cup performance messed them up?

Not so much of a shock to me, we know they can cause trouble at home as happened to us, more of a surprise for
them to get an away result. However Bosnia is a small country ~3 million so maybe not such a shock, however I
expect they can draw on a much large former Yugoslav population.

I was not aware so much of Iceland position in world football, they do punch above their weight and I considered
Turkey to be a decent side, certainly one capable of giving us tough game.

[pineapple stu]

Ireland have not beaten Turkey in 24 years, they did some how win 5-0 in 1990 though.
That result wasn't really a surprise. Turkey were regular whipping boys until the mid 90s remember. England beat them 8-0 in the 80s twice. Euro 96 was the first tournament they qualified for since 1954 (when they drew with Spain in qualifying and progressed by drawing lots).

[Stuttgart88]

Like beating is in dublin in May? That kind of tough? :)

[geysir]

I am with you in spirit but our record in ex-USSR is decent. Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Armenia, Georgia, even Mother Russia herself. No worries there. Hungary and our last outing in Bulgaria were decent destinations, and Albania wasn't a disaster.

Our record in ex-Jug of Saliva is much less impressive.

There's Eastern Europe and Yugoslav Eastern Europe!

Is it really that critical to have thought Forde should have saved that shot without having seen the deflection? I think we have reasonable expectations of Forde.
I was more referring to that our performance (including the quality of the goals), not just the record, was as good as achieved out there by any other previous manager, that this is how we most always perform against those ex-eastern block countries in a qual group. Once that context is appreciated, then O'Neill's first serious test can be appraised. He got enough right on the night to win a tie that was fraught with possibles against a team that didn't play as good at home as their previous performances suggested they would.
If O'Neill had to play a similar game again, I'd be confident that he would do it differently (unlike Trap :)).

[Stuttgart88]

If O'Neill had to play a similar game again, I'd be confident that he would do it differently (unlike Trap :)).
Einstein is reported to have said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again but expecting different results.

Trap would define insanity as being the Irish wish to do things differently despite the good results.

We'll assess Martin O'Neill's mental health by whether he does things differently without getting a worse result.

I think.

[tricky_colour]

That result wasn't really a surprise. Turkey were regular whipping boys until the mid 90s remember. England beat them 8-0 in the 80s twice. Euro 96 was the first tournament they qualified for since 1954 (when they drew with Spain in qualifying and progressed by drawing lots).

Granted I am thinking of the 90's when there are a decent side, they came 3rd in the World Cup in 2002.
However it is Iceland that is the surprise their population is tiny it must be something in the fish!!!!

[Charlie Darwin]

Granted I am thinking of the 90's when there are a decent side, they came 3rd in the World Cup in 2002.
However it is Iceland that is the surprise their population is tiny it must be something in the fish!!!!
They didn't qualify in 2004 or 2012, and they've only been to one World Cup, but once they do qualify for a tournament they tend to do very well. Only once have they failed to make a quarter final at least.

[tricky_colour]

Like beating is in dublin in May? That kind of tough? :)


Precisely, they are a very good side.

[tricky_colour]

They didn't qualify in 2004 or 2012, and they've only been to one World Cup, but once they do qualify for a tournament they tend to do very well. Only once have they failed to make a quarter final at least.

Yea I just checked my facts, I looked at their qualifying record and it seems they finished 2nd in their group
every/most of the time. I guess they must have lost out in the pay offs?

It seems in 2000 they qualified in the play offs at our expense.

[mark12345]

Poor performance overall but a huge three points. I thought Ward was poor for the goal we conceeded. I wouldn't have him near the team myself but a lot of different managers play him so there you go.

I feel the same. And I also feel that way about Whelan (cannot for the life of me see what he brings to the team that Hoolahan cannot do with his little toe).
There's a saying which goes like this: "When I was 14 years old, I was surprised at how little my father knew about life. When I was 21 years old, I was surprised how much he'd learned in seven years."

That's sort of the way I feel. I never knew how little I knew about football. Have played and watched the game, and reffed to, all of my life. But, as successive Irish managers have demonstrated to me, and many others I suspect, we know nothing about the game because we cannot see the qualities in the likes of Ward and Whelan, whereas they can.

[geysir]

Granted I am thinking of the 90's when there are a decent side, they came 3rd in the World Cup in 2002.
However it is Iceland that is the surprise their population is tiny it must be something in the fish!!!!
Turkey were poor enough before 2000, Iceland (when they were minnows) beat them 5 nil one time and another time England put 11 past them.
Iceland's results are no surprise to anyone (Charlie excepted), who knows anything abou. ........
They have an integrated progressive academy system in place since 2003, there are 4 or 5 full sized indoor stadiums. From a starting place in 2002 where Iceland were playing elementary football and were far behind Ireland, they are now ahead. What has effected the change in the main is the academy system and most everyone in football, batting together. Last night's team would beat Ireland. This isn't just a golden generation, a mere isolated inflated bubble of talent, the base of this team all came through the club academies and most of them were involved in the successful 2011 u21 team. This current successful generation of u21´s are already vying for places on the senior team.
Lagerbeck has it made, he just has to turn up and not mess it up.

[Stuttgart88]

Turkey were so bad once that Dave O'Leary scored against them.

I loved it when Turkey, Greece and Cyprus were pushovers.

Mark, I hear you, but I think Ward is there only by default. I usually agree wrt Whelan but I think he did well on Sunday. Stephen Hunt was saying in the press last week that he's a big character on the pitch.

[tricky_colour]

It was a bad time of the year for Turkey though, does not fit with their domestic season, they are at their best at Christmas

[Stuttgart88]

Tets, do what you have to do...

[Drumcondra 69er]

http://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.ie/2014/09/georgia-off-our-minds.html

Blog on Sunday's game if anyone interested......

[paul_oshea]

Stutts Einstein never said that.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Tbf, Island's progress is probably also partly cyclical. IMO in 20 years time they could be as bad as any of the current 4th or 5th seeds...

[Charlie Darwin]

http://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.ie/2014/09/georgia-off-our-minds.html

Blog on Sunday's game if anyone interested......
Good stuff, I would be pretty close to your analysis too.

[tricky_colour]

Tets, do what you have to do...


If you don't like my posts use your ignore button, I will be using mine.

[tetsujin1979]

Tets, do what you have to do...
if I start banning people for bad puns, I'll end up talking to myself on here.

[gastric]

if I start banning people for bad puns, I'll end up talking to myself on here.

The arrogance and 'them and us' attitude of a recently promoted individual!;)