Republic of Ireland V Oman 3rd September 2014 & Georgia 7th September 2014

[tetsujin1979]

One thing I've noticed about Quinn over the last two games is he doesn't spend a lot of time on the ball, he's always looking for a quick release. It's like he thinks he's always going to be closed down. But against the lesser lights of Oman and Georgia, there was more than one occasion when he had time to look up for a pass, or to take a step or two with the ball before passing.

Not a negative, just something I've noticed.

[DeLorean]

I don't buy the 'Out of Position' thing really, in this case... I took from MO'Ns prematch interview that he had more of a license than Glenn Whelan. He wasn't burdened by the responsibility that Whelan had, so he could have put in a more assertive, dynamic display. Gerard 'light' if you will. These are fuzzy, non committal tags I'm applying, I know. But you know what I'm getting at. If anything it should have been the easier role to full fill from a midfielder with his attributes.

There is no doubt McCarthy was poor in his new role. The point was in response to you saying that his performance belies his playing experience. He isn't experienced in playing that far forward so I don't see how his experience of playing a completely different role would have helped him. Seeing as we're going with PL analogies, it would be like asking Darren Fletcher to play the Juan Mata role, or close enough. To be fair, his assist for the goal was Mata-esque.

[DeLorean]

How anybody could think Forde was in any way culpable for the Georgia goal in baffling.

I'm not so sure. He looked to be caught off guard, not ready to pounce for the shot and ended up not moving at all. I don't know if he would have saved it if he was more alert to the possibility of a shot coming in, possibly not, but he didn't give himself the best chance of saving it.

[OwlsFan]

Couple of great goals for McGeady but his performance otherwise was poor with miss-hit crosses, losing possession, failing to beat his opponent. Mind you I’ll take the two goals anytime but swallows and summer come to mind.

I'll also take the result as if we were somehow going to become a new team with flair, ability, dashing play, overrunning the opposition, peppering their goal etc etc when history teaches us that we have to scrap for everything away from home, even under Jack's more talented sides. I thought we were relatively comfortable with Forde having to do little other than pick the ball out of the net after a moment's hesitation from Ward gave the Georgian a chance for a speculative shot. That said their goalie wasn't exactly worn out from saves either.

Whelan's moaning about us being happy with a draw was bunkum when evidence shows 4 or 5 men in the box for McGeady's winner which tells us otherwise. True he wasn't changing the system with the Meyler substitution but that doesn't mean we wanted a draw.

I have always said style means nothing to me: results are everything. We got 3 points in a game we were comfortable in without (except for a while after McGeady's first) ever looking like we'd win it. A sickening result for our rivals remember. Also the first goal from a long ball was a beautie.

It is a bit like a continuation of the Trap era with the Hoolahan debate. Fans seem to love him. Managers don't.

What did we learn?

a) MO'N is less polite than Trap to belligerent interviewers.
b) One man up front is not for Robbie.
c) McCarthy doesn't work well ahead of the ball.
d) MO'N doesn't trust Hoolahan away from home.
e) Keane is not the assistant like Tardelli and MO'N looks elsewhere for advice on the touchline.
f) We're 3 points on the way to the Euros.
g) The Panel: Ah, the Panel. The honeymoon lasted 1 minute before MO'N was accused of cowardice. So it begins.
h) MO'N does not have a magic wand (yet).
i) The fans will always believe whoever is not in the team is better than those in the team.
j) We're still in the tournament.

We'll beat the Rock People 4-0 and the Germans will have got rid of their rustiness by the time we arrive.

[punkrocket]

What was Kilkenny's goalie called? He looked the part.

[geysir]

Whelan is one of my favorites ever, but the fact that he shinned it takes from it a bit.
Robbies against Germany was probably the most exciting ever considering what it meant, but technically is was just a long ball, flick on and decent finish.
McAteer was a great finish but was terrible defending given how much space he had.

The way McGeady controlled the ball, the turn and the finish tonight ,under pressure away from home was special I think
I'd hazard a guess that McGeady's first goal was the greater pressure goal, he had a bit of time on the ball, dragged it wide and then the one on one with the goalie. McGeady's second goal was an exercise in instinctive sublime artistry in a pressure situation, but no time for him to feel pressure.

[DeLorean]

Balls.ie (http://balls.ie/football/poll-irelands-greatest-ever-international-goal/) have joined the best goal debate. I had forgotten about Robbie Keane's v Israel. That was a class finish from a brilliant pass to be fair.

[pineapple stu]

Robbie Keane's opener against Yugoslavia was good too. Really nicely placed first-time finish on the half-volley. Technically quite difficult. Not entirely dissimilar to that Israel goal, which I'd forgotten about as well.

Was right behind the goal for that Doyle goal in Slovakia. Can attest that it was a cracker. :)

[Charlie Darwin]

I'm not so sure. He looked to be caught off guard, not ready to pounce for the shot and ended up not moving at all. I don't know if he would have saved it if he was more alert to the possibility of a shot coming in, possibly not, but he didn't give himself the best chance of saving it.
He didn't move because everybody could see he had no chance. He looks like he might have been a bit flat-footed but it's irrelevant because no goalkeeper is going to be ready for a speculative 25 yard shot in the top corner. I saw suggestion during the game that he should have dived, if only to avoid criticism, which goes to show how silly the whole thing is. If he'd injured himself diving after a lost cause we'd be cursing his poor decision-making.

[DeLorean]

Yeah I'm just not sure it was that unstoppable if he was set up right and expecting it. Always expect the unexpected as the ad says! It was an awful strange angle to be beaten from but I accept it dipped pretty dramatically. I just think he concedes too many goals where there are question marks attached and I think this might be another one. Fair enough if yourself and others don't.

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah I'm just not sure it was that unstoppable if he was set up right and expecting it. Always expect the unexpected as the ad says! It was an awful strange angle to be beaten from but I accept it dipped pretty dramatically. I just think he concedes too many goals where there are question marks attached and I think this might be another one. Fair enough if yourself and others don't.
If he was nine feet tall it would have possible been savable. Neuer wouldn't have stopped it.

[DeLorean]

Well the crossbar is only 8ft. If he had anticipated the shot then he might have been able to get back quicker to touch it over. He was only a foot or two off his line. It goes way over his head because he stood motionless. In other words, if he was back on his line by the time the ball reached the goals he wouldn't have needed to be 9ft to touch it over.

[Charlie Darwin]

Well the crossbar is only 8ft. If he had anticipated the shot then he might have been able to get back quicker to touch it over. He was only a foot or two off his line. It goes way over his head because he stood motionless. In other words, if he was back on his line by the time the ball reached the goals he wouldn't have needed to be 9ft to touch it over.
How many times in football have you seen a goalkeeper claw the ball out of the top corner? It very, very, very rarely happens. You might see it a couple of times a year. I just think it's a ridiculous expectation to have of a goalkeeper. At the same time, I think other areas of Forde's game are deficient.

[DeLorean]

How many times in football have you seen a keeper beaten from that position, without it being his fault? It very, very, very, very rarely happens. :)

[Razors left peg]

If Forde was over to the other side of the goal I think it would have been unsavable but he wasnt that far from where it went in.

He seemed to be caught on his heals quite badly. I do think a better keeper would have saved it to be honest, he wouldnt have even had to dive at full stretch

[dr_peepee]

The goal conceded just typified Forde. I don't mind him. He's a capable keeper. A top level keeper may have positioned himself better to capitalise on their superior reflexes in such a case. Nobody considers him top level so where's the surprise?

[SwanVsDalton]

Ordinarily, I might agree with the criticism of the Forde goal. But there were three out-of-the-ordinary factors to take into account.

Firstly the shot was exceptionally struck and hit from a weird angle. That in itself would be enough to damn Forde, since he should have been more expectant and ready for action. However, he was also unsighted by two to three players and the ball took an slight, but reasonably wicked deflection to give it an extra bit of spin and dip.

All those taken together made it unsaveable imo. Unsaveable for Forde, for Westwood, for Given or Elliot or anyone else we could have played. If you want to make an argument for someone saving it, I'd make an argument for Neuer. Maybe. But he's hardly relevant.

The replay shows he's close to that side, but as CD said, if the ball's in the top corner, struck with lethal speed, it's going to be hard to save. Add in a deflection and an unsighted keeper and it's just a total melt for any keeper.


Yeah I'm just not sure it was that unstoppable if he was set up right and expecting it. Always expect the unexpected as the ad says! It was an awful strange angle to be beaten from but I accept it dipped pretty dramatically. I just think he concedes too many goals where there are question marks attached and I think this might be another one. Fair enough if yourself and others don't.

Honestly, I think people are happy to attach question marks to players performances because they're iffy on the player. It's particularly easy in the case of a keeper, because unless a keeper is pretty much world class, then there will be natural question marks. And that's fine. But in this instance I don't think the player is getting a fair crack. Particularly if we're going to play a fairly egregious case of 'I think Westwood/Given etc would have saved it'.

Sometimes the a powerful, freakishly accurate, deflected shot flies in the net. Sometimes we have to give our players some benefit of the doubt. If Forde - or anyone else - doesn't do it for you fine, but I still can't see many people keeping that one out.

Personally I'd favour having another look at Westwood, if he's playing well but that's just my view on the goal.

[DeLorean]

Hang on... it deflected? I didn't know that.

[SwanVsDalton]

Hang on... it deflected? I didn't know that.

Slight deflection but big result, it gave it all that dip and spin. Was off the back of Ward or O'Shea (can't remember who was directly in front of the shot) but they discussed it quite a bit on Sky at HT, which I was watching in RTE-less Belfast.

[Closed Account]

Hang on... it deflected? I didn't know that.Nearly impossible to see but the ball rises a second time after clipping Georgian no.9. Forde completely blameless. Sometimes people score good goals that can't be saved.

[geysir]

Slight deflection but big result, it gave it all that dip and spin. Was off the back of Ward or O'Shea (can't remember who was directly in front of the shot) but they discussed it quite a bit on Sky at HT, which I was watching in RTE-less Belfast. I thought the shot deflected off the back of a Georgian, what else could explain the movement of the ferociously hit ball except a deflection of sorts.
Forde correctly positioned off his line had no chance and I doubt there's a player on the planet now who could have saved it.
A goalie would need the elastic agility of a Peter Bonetti to adjust and have a chance to make the save and they don't exist nowadays. Henry in 2006 scored past Given in his prime with (imo) a similar but much more saveable shot.

edit, I see that Joe has already made a similar point in his reply.

[SwanVsDalton]

Indeed, it was the Georgian striker. Had thought it was a defender but they still wern't close enough to the shot to even get a touch on it (boom boom).

[tricky_colour]

Agreed. Thunderous dipping shot, damn all he could do about it.

Nonsense, if he has been standing on a bar stool by the left hand post he would probably have saved it.

[DannyInvincible]

It is a bit like a continuation of the Trap era with the Hoolahan debate. Fans seem to love him. Managers don't.

There must be something to it. Fans don't have to worry a hoot about the responsibilities a manager does; they have the luxury to be idealistic (or reckless and irresponsible).

[Stuttgart88]

Was there really a deflection? My instinct in real time was that it had to have been but in the replays it looked like a clean hit. I just thought Forde didn't take a step sideways because he thought at the moment it was struck that it was going over. If he had anticipated the top spin he'd have taken a simple step to his left and tipped it over.

That's how I saw it, no deflection. Happy to be corrected though.

[Stuttgart88]

There must be something to it. Fans don't have to worry a hoot about the responsibilities a manager does; they have the luxury to be idealistic (or reckless and irresponsible).I think O'Neill does rate Hoolahan. O'Neill himself said afterwards that he had overrated the opposition which explains the cautious selection. I'd be surprised if Hoolahan doesn't start several of the remaining non-Gibraltar games. He was brilliant against Italy showing he can press high up the pitch more effectively than anyone else. He put to bed the notion that he's a luxury player only of use in possession.

[SwanVsDalton]

Was there really a deflection? My instinct in real time was that it had to have been but in the replays it looked like a clean hit. I just thought Forde didn't take a step sideways because he thought at the moment it was struck that it was going over. If he had anticipated the top spin he'd have taken a simple step to his left and tipped it over.

That's how I saw it, no deflection. Happy to be corrected though.

I thought there was. It definitely appears to just take a little nick off the back of the Georgian striker and the Sky guys certainly analysed it enough. It also helps explain the fairly crazy dip.

[Charlie Darwin]

Judge for yourselves:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAXiJCGqNdE

[Stuttgart88]

Deflection and Forde is blameless. No deflection and I'd be critical, but objectively so.

Speaking of deflections, we were lucky a Georgian shot in the first half came off the inside of O'Shea's leg yet still managed to go further wide. Almost every time I've ever seen an inside leg deflection it's trouble.

[Stuttgart88]

Judge for yourselves:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAXiJCGqNdE
Ah, ok. So it hot the 9 in the back (edit: upper left arm?) which is what put the top spin on it? Not conclusive but quite likely.

Forde's post-goal reaction was one of surprise. I can relate to that. Keepers react almost instantaneously to a shot, in terms of judging angles etc. It did look like Forde set himself as if there was no danger and then all of a sudden there was.

No. 9 didn't flinch though, which I'd expect if he'd been hit, but it was probably a graze more than anything else.

[DeLorean]

Yeah I'm the exact same as Stutts on this. If there is a deflection it changes everything. To be fair it would explain the crazy dip so ye're probably right. It takes a hell of a lot away from the goal itself also if it is the case. God knows where it would have ended up without the nick, even if it is a slight one.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd say #9 did flinch. He looks like somebody who, if he wasn't grazed by the ball, was very close to it. With the power in that shot, all it would take is a skim to go off course like that.

[geysir]

Strange that we now expect an unparalleled (in the universe) standard of goalkeeping from an old timer and an away performance against an east european nation far surpassing anything that we have managed before, since the break up of the USSR. MON and Keano should put in for raise.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah I'm the exact same as Stutts on this. If there is a deflection it changes everything. To be fair it would explain the crazy dip so ye're probably right. It takes a hell of a lot away from the goal itself also if it is the case. God knows where it would have ended up without the nick, even if it is a slight one.
And it completely changes the impending lucky manager accusations! David Kelly and the Indo sports department have probably already compiled a list of reasons why O'Neill is a lucky manager, discrediting our 100pc record after 7 games.

Caught the World Champions on a wet night, Poland's players didn't like their away strip, our critical 6th goal against Gibraltar was offside, Marshall's blatant upending of Shane Long in the penalty box drew an unsportsmanlike appeal for a penalty from Robbie Brady...

[Charlie Darwin]

And it completely changes the impending lucky manager accusations! David Kelly and the Indo sports department have probably already compiled a list of reasons why O'Neill is a lucky manager, discrediting our 100pc record after 7 games.
He's also cowardly.

[Stuttgart88]

Strange that we now expect an unparalleled (in the universe) standard of goalkeeping from an old timer and an away performance against an east european nation far surpassing anything that we have managed before, since the break up of the USSR. MON and Keano should put in for raise.

I am with you in spirit but our record in ex-USSR is decent. Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Armenia, Georgia, even Mother Russia herself. No worries there. Hungary and our last outing in Bulgaria were decent destinations, and Albania wasn't a disaster.

Our record in ex-Jug of Saliva is much less impressive.

There's Eastern Europe and Yugoslav Eastern Europe!

Is it really that critical to have thought Forde should have saved that shot without having seen the deflection? I think we have reasonable expectations of Forde.

[Kingdom]

Is it really that critical to have thought Forde should have saved that shot without having seen the deflection? I think we have reasonable expectations of Forde.

Just to say, I'm not calling for Forde's head as a result of that goal going in; it's because I feel Westwood is the better keeper, and that if we're to use the ball better from the last line of defence (or first line of offence) then Westwood is the man, while also being the better keeper.

[tricky_colour]

Yeah I'm the exact same as Stutts on this. If there is a deflection it changes everything. To be fair it would explain the crazy dip so ye're probably right. It takes a hell of a lot away from the goal itself also if it is the case. God knows where it would have ended up without the nick, even if it is a slight one.

I have it down loaded in HD and watching on VLC player, they used to have a good frame advance and slow motion
on it but that seem to have been removed. I can't see a deflection (does not appear to hit anyone) but it does look
like there was one, seems to be sliced one way and then move back the other, maybe the effects of wind and spin.
Pretty unsavable really as it is only at reachable height when it crosses the goal line.
I think maybe he should be on the goal line and closer to his left had post.

[paul_oshea]

Having seen fordes position and being right behind the goal for their goal it looked like he curled it - no deflection. when watched after on the the telly it looked more like he got his boot under it on the lips, looks can be deceiving though - forde was too slow and his positional awareness was all over the shop so he was never going to be able adjust himself quick enough he hasn't that agility or ability.

[tetsujin1979]

Of course, McGeady has previous in turns like that: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1hpgq_mcgeady-spin-v-rangers_sport

[swinfordfc]

Ward at fault for the goal ... O'Shea was covering one side and then Ward back off and gave him room to shoot ..... i would not start him again .... move Wilson to the left back and bring in Keogh or Delaney

[tricky_colour]

Ward at fault for the goal ... O'Shea was covering one side and then Ward back off and gave him room to shoot ..... i would not start him again .... move Wilson to the left back and bring in Keogh or Delaney

I would dispute who was at fault for that goal anyone.

There is little dispute about Wilson's massive blunder earlier which nearly lead to an easy goal.

You can excuse the Ward/OShea goal because it required an extra ordinary shot, there is little to mitigate Wilsons error.

I thought Ward did a decent job, brought the ball forward will and we looked less chaotic when he was bringing the ball forward.l

[DannyInvincible]

I don't think it took a deflection, but it is very difficult to say for sure as it moved pretty wildly through the air.

OK, geometry's not my strong-point and I'm not sure I have sufficient knowledge of the requisite terminology, but... I've paused the video (admittedly, poor quality footage) and have caught it as the ball is about to pass over the head of Gelashvili. The ball is blurry, but the motion blur is actually helpful here. It is crucial to working out the ball's trajectory. Two distinct white blobs can be seen in close proximity to one another; they indicate two separate positions in the air through which the ball passed as it flew towards the goal. I've appropriately connected them up and continued the connecting red line back to Okriashvili's foot, the point of origin. Three connecting "co-ordinates" or points of reference ensure greater accuracy than just two. The ball didn't start to dip until it had passed in front of the black Adidas sponsorship board in the background and it would appear from the rough path the ball was taking at this exact moment indicated by the red line that it would not even have skimmed off Gelashvili's back or head.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/georgia_zps4257b155.png

To be honest, I think I could have been more generous and drawn the line at a greater angle from the ground out of Okriashvili's foot; that would mean the ball would have passed over Gelashvili's head at a slightly greater height than illustrated by the line I've actually drawn.

By the way, who did that Pythagoras fella play for?

[SwanVsDalton]

Interesting angle there Danny. Still think there might have been a slight nick on it, and it would only have to be a mere skim for it to cause chaos to a shot struck that well.

There's was a mystery about a US president getting shot in the 60s that you could look into next if you've got a spare five minutes.

[tricky_colour]

I don't think it took a deflection, but it is very difficult to say for sure as it moved pretty wildly through the air.

OK, geometry's not my strong-point and I'm not sure I have sufficient knowledge of the requisite terminology, but... I've paused the video (admittedly, poor quality footage) and have caught it as the ball is about to pass over the head of Gelashvili. The ball is blurry, but the motion blur is actually helpful here. It is crucial to working out the ball's trajectory. Two distinct white blobs can be seen in close proximity to one another; they indicate two separate positions in the air through which the ball passed as it flew towards the goal. I've appropriately connected them up and continued the connecting red line back to Okriashvili's foot, the point of origin. Three connecting "co-ordinates" or points of reference ensure greater accuracy than just two. The ball didn't start to dip until it had passed in front of the black Adidas sponsorship board in the background and it would appear from the rough path the ball was taking at this exact moment indicated by the red line that it would not even have skimmed off Gelashvili's back or head.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/poguemahone85/georgia_zps4257b155.png

To be honest, I think I could have been more generous and drawn the line at a greater angle from the ground out of Okriashvili's foot; that would mean the ball would have passed over Gelashvili's head at a slightly greater height than illustrated by the line I've actually drawn.

By the way, who did that Pythagoras fella play for?


I have figured out how to use slow motion on the VLC player, I also downloaded
a HD version of the game. If it did hit him anywhere it hit him on the top of the
head but it is hard to say, he certainly didn't claim it as his.
I have a frame of the ball just before his head and just after.


http://i57.tinypic.com/2ch95ag.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/23ib97a.jpg

[DannyInvincible]

Can you get it on/over his head? :o

[tricky_colour]

http://i58.tinypic.com/a9sjrq.jpg





http://i57.tinypic.com/2ch95ag.jpghttp://i61.tinypic.com/30w2wsl.jpg

[DannyInvincible]

You're getting there. Just a little closer now... :confused:

[Closed Account]

Never has such in depth analysis gone into a golazo. Applaud it and move on. Do any of you enjoy watching good football? :)
Wilson's fault anyway. Too close to his man on a long ball. Can think of 4 times in the match he did that. Wouldn't see it in the AUL.

[tricky_colour]

Can you get it on/over his head? :o


Don't thinks so, the images I posted are two consecutive frames I think,
however I might be able to get more images from different views.
I got the HD version form here
http://forum.rojadirecta.es/forumdisplay.php?15-Partidos-en-descarga-%28Full-matches%29