Champions' League 2013/4

[geysir]

This second semi final should have been ecstasy for those who found last night's snooze fest, entertaining.
But who knows just how exhilarating it must have been for some to witness a goalkeeper gathering yet another ball out of the sky with his name written on it, or to watch one of the world's most expensive teams, defend like Norway in their heyday and that was sometimes Norway defending a goal defeat.
But the thrill of a Ronaldo assist just does pales into comparison with a centre half rising to nudge an attacker in the back away from the ball.

[DeLorean]

This second semi final should have been ecstasy for those who found last night's snooze fest, entertaining.

I found the Chelsea game more intriguing than entertaining. The same Atletico side could have scored any amount in the previous round against Barca but Chelsea put the shackles on them. I don't really agree with Stutts that it was a basic parking the bus exercise, they just didn't have enough on the break to make it the perfect away performance. I think they were set up quite similarly to the night they won 1-0 at City, but they broke a lot quicker that night. Hazard really is a key player for them. There is nothing wrong with a team playing to their strengths and Chelsea's obvious strength is being able to defend well.

The match last night was brilliant. I'm not sure I've ever seen a game where it could be argued both teams dominated... Bayern dominated possession and territory, Real dominated the chances and played the more incisive football. 1-0 was probably the only outcome that makes it very unclear as to who is in the driving seat. Bayern will know they're well capable of winning by two, but they may need to score three or four to do so. First goal is massive.

[bennocelt]

Jose Mourinho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQld_0vyEU

Have to say I like Mourinho, always makes it hard for the opposition, much prefer it to that ticci takki Guardiola stuff tbh

[Closed Account 2]

I think tactically he's generally a good (or effective) tactician, people talk about parking the bus but he can also set out a team to go for it. An example is the PSG 2nd leg also in his first spell at Chelsea his team was involved in good games vs Barca and Liverpool where you couldnt really say he was overly negative in those games. At Inter he was attacking in the 2010 home match vs Barca and also against Chelsea in the round before, and in the middle of that they played Juve and he put out an attacking team as well. He does tend to err on the side of caution especially in big games, this season you could argue he was a bit too negative the night before last and also in the away league games at Old Trafford and Arsenal (he went for 0-0s when the games were winnable).

I do think he ties himself in knots with some of the stuff he says, offering an opinion when he'd be much wiser saying nothing or a Guardiola-esque banal platitude. And certainly the stuff he has said about his strikers (Torres not good enough, Etoo too old) doesnt seem condusive to team coheasion.

[DeLorean]

Yeah I'd agree with all of that. He's a proper manager, analyses where the opposition are strong and potentially weak. I'd have much more faith in him going to Anfield the next day than I had in Pellegrini, for example. He'll respect what Liverpool have been doing well and try to counteract it. I get the impression Pellegrini just tells his players to go out and play football. Then again, the one variation in his tactics all season backfired spectacularly against Barcelona, that was probably a game where he should have told his players just to go for it, given how vulnerable Barca have looked since.

[geysir]

Have to say I like Mourinho, always makes it hard for the opposition, much prefer it to that ticci takki Guardiola stuff tbh
I much preferred Benitez's cautious approach with Chelsea than Mourinho. Benitez caution was not that dissimilar to Ancelotti, a varied tactical game, pressed high, disturb the pattern of opposition playing out from the back, other times sit back and allow them to get cosy with their pattern then inject a period of pressing and at least have a threat of a counter attack game. A structure of caution and attack which allowed for many variables.
Mourinho strips the defence game down to the minimal, ultimately having no ambition, threat or guile to score. How can that be more attractive than watching the most dynamic attacking midfield duo of Xavi and Iniesta, along with Messi? 3 of the most acclaimed football geniuses of all time. probably you would have been bored out of your pants witnessing Cruyff or Best prancing their arts:)
Chelsea's game was about getting a nil all result, marginally better than watching a defensive set up before the back pass rule came in.

[Closed Account 2]

But I think if Mourinho has an opportunity to play an attacking team he will. He's deployed players like Oscar, Willian and Hazard (sometimes all 3 at once) but he does tend to only do it in matches against "weaker" teams - in big games he tends to revert to caution, especially in the CL knockouts, and if he doesnt have Eto'o fit it's 50/50 if he'll start with a striker at all.

One of the things that is often negelected about Barca playing with Xavi, Messi, Iniesta (and to an extent 2 of Neymar, Pedro, Alexis Sanchez) is that the team is pivoted to a slightly lopsided extent for this to happen. You end up with converted DMs at center back (Mascherano) and defensivly suspect center backs (Pique) and to an extent full backs (Alves and Alba) making up the back line. Even the regular keeper (Valdez) is probably better at sweeping and distributing than he is at orthodox goalkeeping. Sometimes it can be very nice to watch and this attacking backline pushes right up beyond the halfway line meaning the whole game is played in one half of the pitch; and against middle of the road teams it can be deadly (Barca go one up and the opposition suffocate in their own half) but they have spectacularly run out of ideas in games against big teams (vs Inter 2010 and Chelsea 2012 they were a man up with over half the second leg to play) and the lack of genuine defensive grit can leave them exposed to quick counters and set pieces (Bayern last year and Celtic springs to mind).

[bennocelt]

I much preferred Benitez's cautious approach with Chelsea than Mourinho. Benitez caution was not that dissimilar to Ancelotti, a varied tactical game, pressed high, disturb the pattern of opposition playing out from the back, other times sit back and allow them to get cosy with their pattern then inject a period of pressing and at least have a threat of a counter attack game. A structure of caution and attack which allowed for many variables.
Mourinho strips the defence game down to the minimal, ultimately having no ambition, threat or guile to score. How can that be more attractive than watching the most dynamic attacking midfield duo of Xavi and Iniesta, along with Messi? 3 of the most acclaimed football geniuses of all time. probably you would have been bored out of your pants witnessing Cruyff or Best prancing their arts:)
Chelsea's game was about getting a nil all result, marginally better than watching a defensive set up before the back pass rule came in.

Three world class players that I love, but kick the ball over that midfield and you have to deal with a duff of a defence:D

[Stuttgart88]

Jose Mourinho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQld_0vyEU

Have to say I like Mourinho, always makes it hard for the opposition, much prefer it to that ticci takki Guardiola stuff tbh
I read a good piece by Glenn Moore in The Indy on Thursday about the tactical battle between Bayern and Real. Apparently a German paper ran a cartoon. Bayern: tika taka tika taka tika taka tika taka tika taka. Then they showed a picture of the guy who squared the ball to Benzema: tik, then a picture of Benzema: TAK!

I think they made their point.

[Charlie Darwin]

Bayern in meltdown mode - two free Sergio Ramos headers has them 3-0 down and needing at least four to progress.

[Charlie Darwin]

3-0 now, it's a massacre. Xabi Alonso will miss the final after getting a ridiculous yellow card for hacking down Schweinsteiger from behind 35 yards from goal.

[geysir]

It was always going downhill for Germany, since they got busted earlier this month for cheating at the World Bridge final, now Bayern are imploding in an embarrassing manner.

Pity about Alonso and that tackle, shattering for him personally.

[DeLorean]

Shattering but what an idiot.

[geysir]

Idiocy doesn't come into it. He's not an idiot, he's a world class player who had a bad 3 seconds and will live with that for years.

edit. They should have it, if a player stays on the pitch for the 2nd semi final, then he should be allowed to play in the final.
Take the suspension in the first CL game next season.

[Charlie Darwin]

You would wonder why there's no amnesty for the second leg.

[Crosby87]

Didn't Roy miss a CL final for a yellow?

[geysir]

Sin é,
Roy was able to offer good practical advice to Alonso during the half time, TG4 style on-pitch pundit get together, 'to get over it and get his head down and play for the team'.

[DeLorean]

Idiocy doesn't come into it. He's not an idiot, he's a world class player who had a bad 3 seconds and will live with that for years.

edit. They should have it, if a player stays on the pitch for the 2nd semi final, then he should be allowed to play in the final.
Take the suspension in the first CL game next season.

He has form. Against Dortmund he nearly jeopardised their whole involvement in the competition, when he was blessed to escape a second yellow when Real were on the ropes. Tonight's was a needless, indisciplined lunge under any circumstances, but just outrageous in these circumstances. It's a shame as he's one of those universally liked players and vital for Real, but yeah, I think it was pretty stupid.

[Charlie Darwin]

Didn't Roy miss a CL final for a yellow?
He did indeed, but he got his yellow when United were still losing the tie and he went on to inspire a victory and score (that might have been before the yellow though, I'm not sure). Alonso's side were four plus the away goal to the good.


He has form. Against Dortmund he nearly jeopardised their whole involvement in the competition, when he was blessed to escape a second yellow when Real were on the ropes. Tonight's was a needless, indisciplined lunge under any circumstances, but just outrageous in these circumstances. It's a shame as he's one of those universally liked players and vital for Real, but yeah, I think it was pretty stupid.
It's funny because I remember reading an interview with Alonso a few years back where he poured scorn on the English idea that tackling is an art form to be proud of, when in reality it means you've failed by getting yourself in a compromising position. This was an instance where Real were pretty comfortable and he still went for the inadvisable tackle, which suggests he might have benefit from a bit more of the English mentality.

[geysir]

I thought it obvious that he was afflicted with a flashback, a rush of the good ol' fashioned English.

[Charlie Darwin]

This would never happen at FC Basel.

[Stuttgart88]

I watched most of the game in a pub with a German mate visiting from USA, a Bayern fan. We had no sound, maybe just as well for him.

What a comprehensive dismantling of the Guardiola ethos. From 7-1 winners over a Guardiola-inspired Barcelona to a 0-5 loser to a counter-attacking Spanish peer in the space of 12 months.

I'd ordinarily have been up for Bayern but I feared that Chelsea could do a job on them, so it's for the best as far as I'm concerned. Either winner tomorrow versus Real would be a better final. Very sad for Alonso, a class act in all respects.

[geysir]

This would never happen at FC Basel.
It would never happen because it's only one way traffic from Basel, as their top quality players are more likely to be captured by the leading EPL clubs for the proverbial peanut.
Such is life for the beleaguered, impoverished, supporter owned, clubs like Basel, trying to make their way in European competition against the mega rich monopoly clubs, but keeping their chin up at the same time.
Bloodied but never bowed.

[Crosby87]

What time is the CL final on, 7:30 local time?

[DeLorean]

19.45 local time.

[geysir]

Local to who?
It means the game starts at the usual champions league time wherever you are in the world :)

[BonnieShels]

Not strictly true. I was dealing with a 4hr gap not long after I got here. And then it became five. ;)

[DeLorean]

Just back to Alonso, didn't he also give away a kind of silly free kick from which Milan scored in the '07 CL final? It kind of sticks in my mind because I think he had given away a few needless frees early on in that game. Remember also the time himself and Ramos picked up deliberate yellow cards against Ajax in order to miss the final dead rubber group match and have a clean slate in the knock-outs? To be honest, I think they were dead right despite the controversy at the time. For a while last night it looked like the tables would turn on them both. It was madness on Ancelotti's part leaving Ramos on as long as he did. I agree with you overall though Geysir, the punishment definitely doesn't fit the crime.

[Stuttgart88]

In fairness to Mourinho, his response yesterday to the perceived negativity – both in Madrid and at Anfield - was pretty comprehensive and wholly justifiable. Simeone obviously agrees and it appears Brendan Rodgers has now been magnanimous too. There’s been a lot of good debate in the media recently about the merit of defence vs counter-attack, possession versus discipline without the ball etc. The key would appear to be that the attacking team must have some incisive way to get through a well-drilled defence. Possession must be matched by purpose and tempo.

They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Guardiola must be a certified nutter in that case! Jupp Heynckes was far more versatile.

During Barcelona’s heyday they were able to find gaps both out wide and when they played more narrowly. Messi and Iniesta were very adept at patiently prizing open tight defences. To a less accomplished extent Arsenal are much more effective with Aaron Ramsey getting between the lines and arriving late, something both Scholes and Lampard have excelled in. Without Ramsey the big sides find Arsenal easy to play against. Similarly Bayern lacked any penetration over the two legs because they were too lateral.

Whether Atletico lacked that ability to pick open Chelsea or whether they were simply a bit stage-struck remains to be seen.

Fascinating stuff.

[KK77]

Wouldn't feel sorry for Alonso at all myself. Three up and makes a challenge like he did knowing he would be out of the final. Harsh rule but easy enough for a player of his experience to use his brain.

[Dodge]

Wouldn't feel sorry for Alonso at all myself. Three up and makes a challenge like he did knowing he would be out of the final. Harsh rule but easy enough for a player of his experience to use his brain.

Don't think the rule is that harsh either.

Don't pick up 3 books in 12 games and there's no issue.

In Alonso's case he's only played 9 games so I've no sympathy at all

[geysir]

Don't think the rule is that harsh either.

Don't pick up 3 books in 12 games and there's no issue.

In Alonso's case he's only played 9 games so I've no sympathy at all
The rule certainly is not perceived to be harsh when one has a callous, cynical, dogmatic-rules-is-rules disposition :)
However it doesn't take a great leap of faith to recognise that Alonso was shattered after he made that tackle and will have to live with that foolish moment for years to come, which is about the sum of my first point.
Nobody here is asking anybody to feel sorry for Alonso, that nothing to do with an examination of a rule, which was my second point.

Sympathy or sorrow has nothing to do with an examination of a rule.
It has been mooted for many years, that if a player is still on the pitch at the end of the semi final game. he can play in the final and take the suspension out in another game. One player that comes to my mind is Dennis Irwin.
What's it to you if that rule came in? What's your agenda here? to preserve the sanctity of the Finals? or a missed opportunity to feel good about another's misery? :)

[Charlie Darwin]

Just the six defenders in the Chelsea XI.

[Stuttgart88]

Didn't do them much good.

[BonnieShels]

Only caught the last 5 min. I really like Atletico. But part of me wouldn't have minded Chelsea v RM either.

Should be a good final though. Geysir might finally enjoy one after last year's "snoozefest".

[Charlie Darwin]

I didn't realise that this will be the first Champions League final between two sides from the same city. I know when it was the European Cup the chances of it happening were practically none, but since they opened it up you'd think there'd have been a AC-Inter or something.

[BonnieShels]

AC-Juve was the first from the same country in 2003 wasn't it and since then we've had all English and all German finals.
Bar Madrid and Milan and London there's very few cities with a strong enough set of teams that would get there. Plus Inter and AC tend to be ying and yang quality wise so it always seems unlikely.

[pineapple stu]

Probably doesn't help either that capital cities have such an awful record in the competition, which is where you're that bit more likely to get a city derby.

[Charlie Darwin]

Probably doesn't help either that capital cities have such an awful record in the competition, which is where you're that bit more likely to get a city derby.
True, plus a lot of the big European cities only have one club that everybody gets behind. It was just the lack of an Inter-AC final that threw me. You'd think between those two, the Manchester clubs, Chelsea and Arsenal and possibly now the Madrid clubs you'll see more of it.

[KK77]

Killer blow for Chelsea to conceed right on half time. Gary Cahill was poor enough for the goal i thought and to be fair clever from the Madrid player to hold back and let him run off and follow the action. To be fair also Chelsea are in transition and as Jose said they have improved on last season so if he can get a few quid during the summer they will be up and running next season.

[DeLorean]

Inter and AC could easily have met in the 2003 final had they avoiding each other in the semi finals.

[DeLorean]

Heartache for Valencia, they seemed to completely dominate as well. Would be nice to see Benfica win it out now after the way they lost the League title and Europa Final last season. Huge strength of character to come back stronger this season. They seemed to limit Juve to very little.

[geysir]

Contrasting games but both had their dramas and were compelling viewing, with Seville sneaking through the side door at the last gasp and Benfica standing up in style to the pressure.
Like PSG and Bayern, Juve are yet another team who have won their league title hands down, going out before their fancied time in the knockut stages.

[Stuttgart88]

I only saw the last ten mins of Juve v Benfica. Clattenberg had his hands full to say the least, and I'm not sure he got it all right.

My mate was at Seville last week for the first leg and said it was brilliant. Fans bring their own food and his son was allowed in for free to sit on his lap.

[DeLorean]

There's a lot to be said for the human touch. Quite the loan move for Mbia, looking forward to a big European final while his underachieving QPR teammates slug it out in the Championship playoffs.

That away goal really is too cruel a rule sometimes.

[geysir]

Apart from the card for the Benfica 'hand ball' (Salvio?), I thought Clattenberg handled that last 10 minutes part of the game well, the latino pressure pot was ready to explode if a player got hit by a fly. But even to the end, at the last Juve attack, Benfica kept their defensive cool to play a high line and catch Juve offside a couple of times. The previous 80 minutes was just my type of euro competition, 2nd leg football.
And I think that 'hand ball' yellow card, rules out that Benfica player from the final. But (stupid) rules are (stupid) rules.

[Stuttgart88]

Quite the loan move for Mbia, looking forward to a big European final while his underachieving QPR teammates slug it out in the Championship playoffs.
There are many who would say that the playoff final is the biggest game in world football! Not me, though.

And Gary Megson fielded a weakened Bolton side to face Bayern because he felt playing some other global nonentity a few days later was more important than a European Q/F(?).

[DeLorean]

There are many who would say that the playoff final is the biggest game in world football! Not me, though.

Well it is a massive game I suppose, but of the four clubs that will make the semi finals, QPR are probably the only ones who wouldn't have settled for it at the beginning of the season. It seemed a formality that they would go up automatically. They'll be going into the playoff games with a fear of failure now more than anything else. It will be more relief than euphoria if they go up and Mbia still gets to reap the benefits if they do!

[SkStu]

I didn't realise that this will be the first Champions League final between two sides from the same city. I know when it was the European Cup the chances of it happening were practically none, but since they opened it up you'd think there'd have been a AC-Inter or something.

Practically none? Surely completely none?!?

[DannyInvincible]

It could potentially have happened, but chances would always have been very slim. Obviously they weren't drawn against one another (I presume they could have been), but both Manchester United and Manchester City entered the 1968-69 competition, for example; United had won the previous year's European Cup, whilst City had won the league in England.