The Flag Issue/Cheist an Bratach/The Fleg Prooblum

[BonnieShels]

Following on from here...

http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay/page240

[DannyInvincible]

Leading on from discussion in the eligibility thread...


Raising the Tricolour would not solve anything.

Loyalists would then denigrate my flag and see it as an "invasion".

That's what I would suspect, despite the fact it would surely demonstrate a powerful show of mutual respect and would be "eroding" nobody's identity. Still, no flag at all (except on designated days) is what the Equality Commission recommended, as far as I'm aware.


I would love to see the Tricolour flying up there but as it has no official status within the United Kingdom it's highly unlikely it would happen.

In saying that Castlereagh BC fly the Ulster Banner and that has no offical status.

It could happen if a democratic majority on the city council wished for it to be so. Wasn't there a council that flew the flag of the Orange Order relatively recently?


Do Newry and Mourne or Moyle DC fly a Tricolour?

They may well. Do they fly it alone?


Why have there been no protests outside Stormont considering it only flies the flag on designated days as well?

The two main unionist parties didn't need a stick with which to bash Alliance when a decision was being made on that then? Circumstances have since changed and policy is shown to be inconsistent.

[DannyInvincible]

Nice inclusive title, by the way, haha. :)

Indeed, it was the unionist-dominated Castlereagh Borough Council that came under criticism for flying the flag of the Orange Order back in 1999: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/regions/northern_ireland/418617.stm

[BonnieShels]

Nice inclusive title, by the way, haha. :)

Indeed, it was the unionist-dominated Castlereagh Borough Council that came under criticism for flying the flag of the Orange Order back in 1999: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/regions/northern_ireland/418617.stm

Reading your question I assumed it was Castlereagh. As I said they are the only Council that fly the Ulster Banner despite it not having any offical status.

I think pragmastism rules when it comes to Nationalist councils. Newry and Mourne could easily fly the Tricolour and easily vote it through but I'm sure they view it as not worth the hassle as yet. The same could be said for Omagh, Strabane and Derry I suppose.

But these are hypotheticals.

[DannyInvincible]

The SDLP would be expressly opposed to flying the tricolour alone. See 'Principles on the Flying Flags' on page 2: http://www.sdlp.ie/index.php/our_campaigns/policy_documents/ or https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sdlp.ie%2Fimages%2Ffiles%2Fpr inciples%2520on%2520the%2520flying%2520of%2520flag s851.doc&ei=lbvuULGLKKeZ0QW-o4HQCA&usg=AFQjCNFtCTesclQQfFr_rOFTmCS5u2Kafw&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.d2k


It is submitted that, for example, the display of the Union flag is clearly identified with the Unionist community, with the Union with Britain and with those who would refer to themselves as British. To display the Union flag - or for that matter the Irish Tricolour alone - is contrary to the above principles of [parity and esteem and of the just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities] and good practice. It should be noted that this argument is not outlined so as to suggest that in the treatment of issues of identity - flag, language etc - there should always be the same treatment at all times and in all ways. This may not be appropriate in political terms, feasible in financial terms or practical in real terms. This policy document elaborates on this perspective at paragraph (19).

13) Moreover, to display the Union flag on government buildings only does not accord "just and equal treatment to the identity, ethos and aspirations" of the nationalist community. In addition, it is submitted that the display of the Union flag only on government buildings does not respect the right "to be accepted as Irish."

...

The flying of a flag to which one community in Northern Ireland identifies, but another does not, is not sensitive. Nor does it promote mutual respect rather than division.

...

17) There are four options for addressing this issue, which it has been argued are consistent with the Agreements:

• flying of no flags on government buildings;
• flying both the Union Flag and the Irish Tricolour;
• creating new consensual symbols with which both unionists and nationalists could identify;
• acknowledge that the principles of the Agreements may enable consideration of the display of either the Union flag and Irish Tricolour together or, where appropriate, display of the Union flag or Irish Tricolour only on restricted days and on restricted buildings by agreement.

The SDLP is prepared to consider each of these options. It is recognised that the display of both flags would at this time be viewed by unionists as not sensitive to their concerns and that, also, in the current circumstances, it may be difficult to secure agreement on consensual symbols. However the SDLP would wish to explore further these options in order to satisfactorily resolve this issue.

18) The SDLP remains committed to develop this issue in a creative and constructive manner. Therefore, and elaborating on 17(D) above, it has been argued that it is not necessarily valid that the same outcome is achieved on all aspects of the expression of different identities in Northern Ireland. Indeed, it is argued by some that parity of esteem could allow for different, as well as the same circumstances, to apply in relation to issues of identity. In this context, a situation could arise where there would be different, as well as same circumstances, applying to the display of the Union flag and to the Irish Tricolour. If different, as well as same circumstances, could apply to the display of flags, it would then be a matter of agreeing when and where they could be displayed, either together or separately, ensuring that there is no unreasonable differential between the occasions when, for example, the Union flag and Irish Tricolour would be displayed separately. It may help inform this issue, if this option was to be explored further.

However, an environment to consider all options can best be developed if there is a determination arising from the present consultation consistent with the principles, legal precedents and inter-party and inter-government agreements outlined above.

20) At present, however, the SDLP favours, as an interim step, in the current environment and to act consistent with the Agreements the option of flying no flags. This is not a resolution to this issue. It reflects realities without closing down opportunities, treats both communities in Northern Ireland equally and is consistent not only with the principle of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities, but also with the right of people in Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both. The SDLP believes that this is a preferred method to proceed. However, the SDLP repeats that this is not a resolution of this issue and will continue to seek to explore methods of advancing the other options and addressing concerns.

Not 100 per cent certain on what Sinn Féin's general flags policy is. Do they have an overall policy or is it published anywhere?

By the way, I see Frazer has postponed due to the Gardaí requiring greater time to ensure security arrangements are in order: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/headlines/willie-frazer-postpones-dublin-protest-1-4662505

Lucky escape from embarrassment for him; maybe he can now re-organise the protest for a weekday when the tricolour will actually be flying over Leinster House...

[BonnieShels]

I always forget you're in Manchester. It was announced quietly last night when FAIR got another spokesman out.
Wee Willie was on The Last Word last night talking crap and was making no sense at all at all.
His protest has morphed now into one highlighting collusion between the Gardai and PIRA.

As an Irish citizen he is more than welcome to protest peacefully on the streets of his capital city.




I'm not sure if many are aware, but Belfast apparently has a city flag of its own:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Flag_of_Belfast.svg

Not certain of its provenance, however, nor do I know what its symbolism purports to represent as information on it seems extremely scarce.

As regards it's provenance there is very little by way of comment only about the flag/arms other than they were granted by James II in 1613 when Belfast gained town status.

For starters it is taken from the Shield of Belfast

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9f/Belfast_Coat_of_Arms.gif

The bell in the top left is a reference to the first syllable of Bel-fast. This is an example of canting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canting_arms).

The repeating blue and white design is a fur (vair). This usually denotes wealth adn as a major trading city it's not hard to see why it was included.
I couldn't find anything about why it is in this triangular shape but I would wager it has something to do with the shape of the entrance into Belfast Lough.

The ship is self explanatory I suppose and that it's located on fast moving waves denotes Belfast as a progressive trading port on the sea.

And of course the flags on the ship are St Patrick's Saltire's which represent Ireland.

[DannyInvincible]

I always forget you';re in Manchester.

I do try and leave RTÉ News' online stream running in the background from time to time in order to remain abreast of affairs, but all I ever get is live footage of Aengus Mac Grianna doing up his make-up!

[DannyInvincible]

The bell in the top left is a reference to the first syllable of Bel-fast. This is an example of canting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canting_arms).

Had never been aware of this practice in heraldry. Seems a bit absurd seeing as the root of the "Bel" has absolutely nothing to do with bells. A mouth of some sort would surely be more appropriate.

[BonnieShels]

Had never been aware of this practice in heraldry. Seems a bit absurd seeing as the root of the "Bel" has absolutely nothing to do with bells. A mouth of some sort would surely be more appropriate.

But then it wouldn't be canting.
You have to understand though in the 1600s when the arms were granted the meaning behind "Bel" would have been almost non-existent for a lot of the populace.

[DannyInvincible]

Wee Willie was on The Last Word last night talking crap and was making no sense at all at all.
His protest has morphed now into one highlighting collusion between the Gardai and PIRA.

Found the segment at 12:00 minutes in part 2 of yesterday evening's show: http://media.todayfm.com/listenback/98/wednesday/1/popup

Mary Lou McDonald is interviewed by Matt Cooper immediately after Frazer.

So, is the Dublin protest now to go ahead on Saturday after all?

[DannyInvincible]

You have to understand though in the 1600s when the arms were granted the meaning behind "Bel" would have been almost non-existent for a lot of the populace.

I suspect most in Ireland would have understood its linguistic origin perfectly well. The use of Irish was very much widespread (virtually universal?) around the beginning of the 1600s before a systematic process of Anglicisation was exercised by the authorities over the next two or three centuries. It is believed that the language remained in majority use across the island up until the beginning of the 1800s, whilst Ulster was seen as a Gaelic stronghold or the most Gaelic part of Ireland, being outside of English control, up until the Nine Years War of the 1590s and subsequent Ulster Plantation. Perhaps the city flag is a surviving early visual artefact of the de-Gaelification of Ireland then, associating, for little logical reason other than phony phonetics, the prefix with the English "bell" rather than the Irish "béal"?

Just finished listening to Mary Lou McDonald who stated that Sinn Féin's flag policy is rooted in a preference for equality, so presumably the party wouldn't be in favour of flying solely the tricolour in any northern council on a permanent basis.

[BonnieShels]

Found the segment at 12:00 minutes in part 2 of yesterday evening's show: http://media.todayfm.com/listenback/98/wednesday/1/popup

Mary Lou McDonald is interviewed by Matt Cooper immediately after Frazer.

So, is the Dublin protest now to go ahead on Saturday after all?

It's not.

Though from the comments I've read on RTE and elsewhere, FAIR seem to be indicating that the Gardai couldn't guarantee their safety and couldn't put the resources in place at such short notice.

To be honest I think Wee Willie got his 15min so I'm thinking he'll be happy with that.

[BonnieShels]

I suspect most in Ireland would have understood its linguistic origin perfectly well. The use of Irish was very much widespread (virtually universal?) around the beginning of the 1600s before a systematic process of Anglicisation was exercised by the authorities over the next two or three centuries. It is believed that the language remained in majority use across the island up until the beginning of the 1800s, whilst Ulster was seen as a Gaelic stronghold or the most Gaelic part of Ireland, being outside of English control, up until the Nine Years War of the 1590s and subsequent Ulster Plantation. Perhaps the city flag is a surviving early visual artefact of the de-Gaelification of Ireland then?

Just finished listening to Mary Lou McDonald who stated that Sinn Féin's flag policy is rooted in a preference for equality, so presumably the party wouldn't be in favour of flying solely the tricolour in any northern council on a permanent basis.

I should have made my self clearer when I said populace. I was ignoring the "Gaels" of the region who had no input into the creation of the "Town". As I said it's a theory behind the canting of the bell.

I have to say I was impresed by Mary Lou last night on The Last Word. First time I think I could ever say that.

I'm sure it's Sinn Fein's stated policy that there should be equality and parity of esteem but I'm sure if someone stuck a Tricolour on top of City Hall they wouldn't complain.

[DannyInvincible]

It's not.

Is that the latest, as of today? The interview on 'The Last Word' seemed to suggest that Frazier was still hoping to go ahead with it even in light Gardaí reservations. Or that negotiations were at least ongoing.

[Not Brazil]

The position of the other Councils in Northern Ireland:

Click on "appendices for the final report on flying the Union Flag" - go to page 14.

http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/equality/impact.asp

The position of the Progressive Unionist Party in June 2012:

-Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom and the flag of a nation is a constitutional symbol

-while this needs to be respected there is no requirement to fly the flag every day;

-it is our opinion that the Union flag should fly outside the City Hall, the Ulster Hall and the Duncrue Complex on the designated flag days plus the additional four days exclusive to Northern Ireland.

The position of the Progressive Unionist Party in November 2012

-The Progressive Unionist Party’s view of the flag’s issue cannot be divorced from their vision for the future based upon the parameters of the GFA.

-Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom as per the will of the people. It is the view of the Progressive Unionist Party that while this needs to be respected there is no requirement that all day every day this glaring fact is appreciated. However the flag of a nation is a constitutional symbol and is also internationally recognised, a flag identifies its people and territory.

-With these facts in mind, it is our opinion that the Union Flag should fly on a permanent basis outside Belfast City Hall. If this is not possible, our position is that the Union Flag should fly outside Belfast City Hall, Duncrue Complex and the Ulster Hall on the 15 ‘flag days’ as in the rest of the UK and those 4 days exclusive to Northern Ireland (New Year’s Day, Easter Day, 12 July and Christmas Day).

Notice the change.

[DannyInvincible]

The final EQIA report on the flying of the Union flag outlines quite well the obvious logical problem with considering the proposal of flying the two flags: http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/equality/impact.asp


5.10 One of the policy options considered in the 2003 EQIA was to give equal prominence to the Irish Tricolour whenever the Union flag was flown, either on a permanent basis or on designated flag days.

5.11 In his opinion expressed in 2004, Senior Counsel (Mr Nicholas Hanna, QC) made it clear that the key issue in regard to this option was the overall aim of the policy. He considered that if the Union flag were to be flown on designated flag days only, the justification would be that the policy acknowledged Northern Ireland’s constitutional position as part of United Kingdom in a balanced and moderate way; however, such a reason could not be given to justify flying the flag of any other state. If the Union flag were to be flown on a permanent basis, Mr Hanna considered that:

“there is a risk of it being inferred that the underlying reason for such a policy was either ‘to assert the ascendancy of one community over another’ (Brennan), or to acknowledge Northern Ireland’s constitutional position in a way which was neither balanced nor moderate, but was intended to give offence to those who opposed it. In such circumstances, while the flying of the Irish Tricolour alongside the Union Flag might possibly be regarded by some as ‘redressing the balance’, I think it would be very difficult indeed to justify such a course of action (which could be seen as a form of counterbalanced or mutual provocation/irritation) as paying proper regard to the desirability of promoting good relations.”

5.12 The Draft EQIA Report concluded that, although it would not be unlawful to adopt a policy of flying the Irish Tricolour alongside the Union flag, there was a possibility that each flag would be regarded as representing one specific community; this option was therefore unlikely to better promote good relations and might be regarded as “mutual provocation”.

[DannyInvincible]

Why the PUP's sudden change of heart, NB? Is it aimed at further hurting Alliance, exploiting working class unionist/loyalist dissatisfaction due to the explosion of outrage this particular issue has unexpectedly sparked or is it rooted in something else?

[BonnieShels]

Is that the latest, as of today? The interview on 'The Last Word' seemed to suggest that Frazier was still hoping to go ahead with it even in light Gardaí reservations. Or that negotiations were at least ongoing.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0109/union-flag-to-be-raised-over-city-hall.html

[Not Brazil]

Why the PUP's sudden change of heart, NB? Is it aimed at further hurting Alliance, exploiting working class unionist/loyalist dissatisfaction due to the explosion of outrage this particular issue has unexpectedly sparked or is it rooted in something else?

I don't know the inner thinking of the the PUP DI - but my guess would be a hardening of stance over the summer in light of what was perceived by "Loyalists" as unfair treatment on Parades. I think the PUP "grassroots" ie. UVF, would have kicked up a stink over it.

[DannyInvincible]

I'm sure it's Sinn Fein's stated policy that there should be equality and parity of esteem but I'm sure if someone stuck a Tricolour on top of City Hall they wouldn't complain.

This was Sinn Féin's submission for the EQIA report:


- any approach to the issue of flags should be set firmly within the context of the Good Friday Agreement;
- the agreement acknowledged the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public places and the need to ensure that they are used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division;
- for Nationalists and Republicans the British Union flag is a symbol of foreign domination and represents generations of injustice, oppression, inequality, discrimination and violence;
- if Nationalists and Republicans are to feel comfortable inside and outside the City Hall, then everyone’s cultural identity must be recognised and legitimised;
- where British cultural symbols are involved in public life, equivalent Irish cultural and political symbols should be given equal prominence.

[SkStu]

That a very balanced suggestion. Very smart.

[Gather round]

That a very balanced suggestion. Very smart

To be "very balanced", I think we might reasonably expect it not to make explicit that any/ all British symbols are offensive and have been to [implicitly all] Nationalists for centuries. I mean, that's just MOPERY.

Try turning on its head. Do you think all Unionists in NI find all Nationalist symbols similarly offensive? I don't, as it would be unreasonable and even absurd to think that (even though the Provies intimidated me from my school and much of my family from their homes much more recently than Sinn Fein's folk memory seems to stretch).

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah but unionists in NI have never lived under Irish rule (unless they migrated south).

On a side note, I have to admit that before this thread I never knew the Irish word for fleg.

[Gather round]

Yeah but unionists in NI have never lived under Irish rule (unless they migrated south)

Er, I have, as a student in Dublin. Many other Unionists from NI have worked there, as you might expect; after all, the South is a neighboring country which is similar in many respects to NI or the rest of Britain, and generally very welcoming to outsiders. But even as a joke or wind-up, I'd very rarely think of my time there as living under Irish Republic rule. Ditto when I lived in Germany. This was 30 years ago, long enough distant for the older regulars in my local to start gurning about WW2 after they'd tired of racist diatribes against Turks and Yugoslavs. But I didn't get too wound up: the thousand-bomber raids were decades before I was born.

Thing is, Sinn Fein have been smart, as Stu puts it above, in convincing a mass support to accept their single-issue obsessive anti-Britishness. But such obsession has its disadvantages- most obviously it makes any long-term mutually satisfactory compromise with their Unionist neighbors almost impossible.

[SkStu]

To be "very balanced", I think we might reasonably expect it not to make explicit that any/ all British symbols are offensive and have been to [implicitly all] Nationalists for centuries. I mean, that's just MOPERY.

Try turning on its head. Do you think all Unionists in NI find all Nationalist symbols similarly offensive? I don't, as it would be unreasonable and even absurd to think that (even though the Provies intimidated me from my school and much of my family from their homes much more recently than Sinn Fein's folk memory seems to stretch).

Don't get me wrong. I think anyone who gets upset by a flag probably has a very unsatisfactory sex-life. But if you're liable to be upset by flags and the other group is liable to be upset by flags then it should be both flags or nothing if a compromise cannot be reached. As I said, its a smart move by the Shinners.

[Charlie Darwin]

Er, I have, as a student in Dublin. Many other Unionists from NI have worked there, as you might expect; after all, the South is a neighboring country which is similar in many respects to NI or the rest of Britain, and generally very welcoming to outsiders.
Yeah but Ireland hasn't ruled your home country, and you don't consider Ireland an occupying force. I can see why people might feel that way.

[DannyInvincible]

Yeah but unionists in NI have never lived under Irish rule (unless they migrated south).

What about the easily-forgotten Ulster Scots community of east Donegal? Many of them would identify as unionist/British, but their cultural/national identity doesn't receive the same official recognition that has been accorded to the nationalist community caught the other "wrong side of the border" in NI post-partition.


That a very balanced suggestion. Very smart.

I think it's definitely a more progressive/positive approach than negative in terms of communal equality/parity of esteem, although would Sinn Féin promote the vice versa: "where Irish cultural symbols are involved in public life, equivalent British cultural and political symbols should be given equal prominence"?

Perhaps they would; maybe just a wee bit less vehemently... :)

There's also the obvious constitutional issue with flying the two national flags together raised by Nicholas Hanna. But then, NI does find itself in a rather unique constitutional position due to the prevailing socio-political circumstances.

Came across this earlier: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-red-c-poll-two-in-three-back-some-form-of-abortion-legislation-3348495.html


Over half of those surveyed [in the Red C poll], 57pc, felt Belfast city council was wrong to restrict the flying of the Union flag at Belfast city hall.

Although I suspect that southern feeling on the matter might have be coloured in hindsight by the scenes of loyalist rioting. Would those polled really have felt it was a bad idea before the democratic vote was taken and had unrest not broken out? It should be remembered that nationalists ultimately compromised towards a unionist position; the Union flag still flies on designated days, after all. There'll be no sight of a tricolour flying with the Union flag on Belfast City Hall, never mind it flying alone.


On a side note, I have to admit that before this thread I never knew the Irish word for fleg.

Until this thread, I hadn't even known the Ulster Scots word for "problem"!

Some genuinely enjoyable reading, this: http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland


Northren Ireland (Ulster Scots: Norlin Airlann) is ane o fower kintras o the Unitit Kinrick. It is in the north o the iland o Ireland, whaur it haes a laund mairch wi the Republic o Ireland, the ae pairt o the Unitit Kinrick wi an internaitional laund mairch. It wis foondit bi the Govrenment o Ireland Act, 1920.

It kivers 5,459 mi², aboot a saxt o the hail aurie o the iland, an haes 1,685,000 indwallers (Aprile 2001) — atwein a fowert an a thrid o the iland's hail population.

[peadar1987]

Ulster Scots: Not a language.

[Charlie Darwin]

What about the easily-forgotten Ulster Scots community of east Donegal? Many of them would identify as unionist/British, but their cultural/national identity doesn't receive the same official recognition that has been accorded to the nationalist community caught the other "wrong side of the border" in NI post-partition.
Maybe they feel the same way, although as far as I know they won't have the collective memory of violence orchestrated by the state that the people of Derry, for instance, would.


Until this thread, I hadn't even known the Ulster Scots word for "problem"!

Some genuinely enjoyable reading, this: http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland
Brilliant. Complete gibberish. I love it.

[gastric]

This article comments on how dispossessed many working class Loyalists feel and yet it is because of this feeling many didn't vote in the council elections. Added to the present economic woes, Unionist democratic politicians face a challenge to create an inclusive vision for the future.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/henry-mcdonald-loyalists-have-no-need-to-get-in-flap-over-a-flag-3348852.html

[Gather round]

.....

[Gather round]

But if you're liable to be upset by flags and the other group is liable to be upset by flags then it should be both flags or nothing if a compromise cannot be reached

Stu, you'll know the old gag about how travellers know when they've crossed from the Republic into NI; that's when the tricolors appear. SF supporters love flags- you need only walk a couple of blocks from Belfast City Hall to see them marking out territory.

Logically, there's a third alternative to the all or nothing you suggest- redraw the local government boundaries so that both sides can display whatever they like in their 'own' areas, with only token protests from a small minority opponent. I'm not being entirely serious, although it's worth stressing that West Belfast's unionist minority is barely 10%, with the Nationalist equivalent in the East less than 5% (source- 2010 general election).


Yeah but Ireland hasn't ruled your home country, and you don't consider Ireland an occupying force. I can see why people might feel that way

You seemed to be suggesting above that NI Unionists don't (can't?) understand Nationalist culture, unless we've lived in the South. Whereas I'm countering that basing so much of your culture/ politics on anti-Britishness is a major problem in itself. As I mentioned, I worked in Germany without getting hidebound by WW2; I'm also a lifelong British republican, but it's not something I want to vote for in a single issue election.

[SkStu]

http://i49.tinypic.com/x4r60.jpg

[DannyInvincible]

Ulster Scots: Not a language.

Whilst it's been accorded language status in NI - for reasons of parity of esteem, I suspect - academic linguists tend to agree that it's as a dialect of either English or Scots. Scots itself is often described as a language, but referring to it as a dialect or as a language variety of English would probably be more appropriate. In saying that, there are no agreed strict or set parameters by which dialects and languages can to be distinguished, as far as I know.

I don't view Ulster Scots as a language myself, but that's not to say it's of no value whatsoever. It is what is; something a bit different, possibly even contrived in some instances or hopped upon by those pursuing political agendas, but I still think it has its charms. My uncle is a rural man who runs a farm near Raphoe - the Laggan district's heartland - and his accent is very much influenced by the dialect. He wouldn't identify as Ulster Scots himself, but it certainly means something in a cultural sense to a lot of people around the area who'd identify themselves as Ulster Scots, so in that sense, and rather than mock it like a cultural cynic, I think it can be seen as another interesting and enriching facet of the island of Ireland's culture.

[Charlie Darwin]

Language is very political. Serbian and Croatian are the same language, for instance, just with different alphabets. They're distinguished mainly on nationalist grounds.

[Spudulika]

Language is very political. Serbian and Croatian are the same language, for instance, just with different alphabets. They're distinguished mainly on nationalist grounds.

Not quite CD :) Serbian is quite distinct from Croatian, as in, you will tell a Serbian from the accent AND words they use. Of course most Croatians will understand the different words, but they have a sizeable differential. Slovenian and Macedonia (likewise) could be lumped in as Serbo-Croat as they have been in the past but are very different languages also. So it's more than just cyrillic/latin script. You're right though, language is the most common base of nationalistic emotions, that and stupidity.

A break/difference between the east-west Yugo(south)slav languages comes with influences from the west and east/south of Europe. Serbian is far, far closer to Russian, Bulgarian etc, whereas (I forget the exact amount) Croatian has a healthy percentage of latin based words (from Italian and French). A kicker in the region is Turkish/Turkic. Alot of words in Dalmatia have their route in Turkish and there are very distinct words used by Bosnjaks compared to their countryfolk of the christian persuasion. One of the tastiest and best loved dishes in ex-Yugoslavia - cevapi, is pure Turkish, but more importantly, pure heaven after a feast of drink.

[Charlie Darwin]

Not quite CD :) Serbian is quite distinct from Croatian, as in, you will tell a Serbian from the accent AND words they use. Of course most Croatians will understand the different words, but they have a sizeable differential.
That makes it a dialect.

[Gather round]

What about the easily-forgotten Ulster Scots community of east Donegal? Many of them would identify as unionist/British, but their cultural/national identity doesn't receive the same official recognition that has been accorded to the nationalist community caught the other "wrong side of the border" in NI post-partition

Alas the Donegal unionists (like those from Cavan and Monaghan I was at school with) were numerically insignificant- in that respect at least the border route was relatively successful. They had to grin, bear it and rely on FG to look after them ;)


would Sinn Féin promote the vice versa: "where Irish cultural symbols are involved in public life, equivalent British cultural and political symbols should be given equal prominence"?

Let's give it a try- say, by naming one of the kids' playgrounds in Newry after a Brit (para)military. Doesn't necessarily have to be a Shankill Butcher of couse, we can compromise on Churchill or Harry Windsor?


Although I suspect that southern feeling on the matter might have be coloured in hindsight by the scenes of loyalist rioting

Indeed, they're likely reminded of wee Willie Frazer's last stunt in Dublin, quickly followed by SF's local Neandertals rampaging through the city.


It should be remembered that nationalists ultimately compromised towards a unionist position; the Union flag still flies on designated days, after all

Strictly they compromised to an Alliance position which the Unionist parties refused to support ;)


]Maybe they feel the same way, although as far as I know they won't have the collective memory of violence orchestrated by the state that the people of Derry, for instance, would

Maybe they'll have the collective memory of the violence orchestrated by balaclava-wearing paramilitary goons, who- let's not forget- committed about 90% of the murders during the Troubles.


This article comments on how dispossessed many working class Loyalists feel and yet it is because of this feeling many didn't vote in the council elections

A fair point, although turnout in local elections can be very low in working-class areas across Britain, not just NI. As an example, in 2011 it was 46% in the Macedon area of Newtownabbey which includes the Rathcoole estate scene of recent rioting. In many similar estates around Birmingham, less than half that number bother. So the wider problem is shortage of jobs, education etc. more than nationality symbols.

Macedon is named after a local lighthouse rather than marking Balkan migration into the area ;)

As for Ullans, I've no detailed knowledge but instinctively it offers little more than a childish political stunt. There aren't enough distinct words to make it a dialect, and I can remember as a child older relatives from is supposed rural heartland speaking, as well as writing only standard English, although admittedly some of them sounded like Brendan Rodgers after a night emptying Ferguson's drinks cabinet...

[Charlie Darwin]

Maybe they'll have the collective memory of the violence orchestrated by balaclava-wearing paramilitary goons, who- let's not forget- committed about 90% of the murders during the Troubles.
Were they representing the Irish state?

[peadar1987]

Whilst it's been accorded language status in NI - for reasons of parity of esteem, I suspect - academic linguists tend to agree that it's as a dialect of either English or Scots. Scots itself is often described as a language, but referring to it as a dialect or as a language variety of English would probably be more appropriate. In saying that, there are no agreed strict or set parameters by which dialects and languages can to be distinguished, as far as I know.

I don't view Ulster Scots as a language myself, but that's not to say it's of no value whatsoever. It is what is; something a bit different, possibly even contrived in some instances or hopped upon by those pursuing political agendas, but I still think it has its charms. My uncle is a rural man who runs a farm near Raphoe - the Laggan district's heartland - and his accent is very much influenced by the dialect. He wouldn't identify as Ulster Scots himself, but it certainly means something in a cultural sense to a lot of people around the area who'd identify themselves as Ulster Scots, so in that sense, and rather than mock it like a cultural cynic, I think it can be seen as another interesting and enriching facet of the island of Ireland's culture.

It's interesting, but the fact that the main barrier to mutual intelligibility is the fact that words are spelled wrongly is not really a qualifier for a separate language in my book. Living in Scotland, I contest that Scots is just a dialect of English as well. It uses exactly the same grammar, and 95% of the same vocabulary. Sometimes you get the odd curveball thrown in, but the same could be said of any dialect. I don't consider it that much further removed than Hiberno-English would be. As Charlie says, language is very political. If Norway wasn't independent of Sweden, Norwegian could well just be considered such a dialect of Swedish, for example.

[osarusan]

It's "language variety" these days, not "dialect". Different connotations.

[Charlie Darwin]

It's "language variety" these days, not "dialect". Different connotations.
Is that not a political decision too?

[osarusan]

Not really I think - the words have different connotations when it comes to the validity and independent identity of a language.

Words collocating with 'dialect' tend to be 'just', 'only', 'merely', which suggest a relationship to a parent language, and at worst, hint at the 'impurity' of the dialect itself. That is the politicalisation of languages - to suggest that one varity is merely a dialect of a parent language is often done to question the validity of the variety and the cultural identity linked to the language.

Solely from a linguistic* point of view, no language variety has any more intrinsic validity/merit/purity than any other.

*In contrast to sociolinguistics etc, which delve into the notions of language and culture, language and politics etc.

[Charlie Darwin]

But is there not some value to having a hierarchy of classifications, like a taxonomy? Yeah, I see the problem with having a "parent" language and dialects, but I think you can also acknowledge that there are fairly narrow branches of an otherwise similar group, eg Serbo-Croat).

(For the record, my mother has a background in linguistics and would agree with you.)

[osarusan]

But is there not some value to having a hierarchy of classifications, like a taxonomy? Yeah, I see the problem with having a "parent" language and dialects, but I think you can also acknowledge that there are fairly narrow branches of an otherwise similar group, eg Serbo-Croat).

(For the record, my mother has a background in linguistics and would agree with you.)

But all different varieties of English (as an example we're all familiar with) are just that - varieties. There was no time when there was only one variety spoken, will all other varieties developing from that parent variety.

Given that this is the case, how is it decided which variety is at the top (or any other position) in a hierarchy? Which one deserves to be 'above' another, and why?

Narrow branches of a similar group - absolutely. But in the vast majority of cases, each variety deelop individually and has equal validity. It's when somebody says that "X is really just a variety of Y" that we see politics get involved, as the conscious or unconscious implication is that language X is a branch of the original language Y. Indeed, in the worst extremes, it often implies that "speakers of X are really just the same as speakers of Y" too.

[Charlie Darwin]

But all different varieties of English (as an example we're all familiar with) are just that - varieties. There was no time when there was only one variety spoken, will all other varieties developing from that parent variety.

Given that this is the case, how is it decided which variety is at the top (or any other position) in a hierarchy? Which one deserves to be 'above' another, and why?
Ahhh I see what you did. It's political!


Narrow branches of a similar group - absolutely. But in the vast majority of cases, each variety deelop individually and has equal validity. It's when somebody says that "X is really just a variety of Y" that we see politics get involved, as the conscious or unconscious implication is that language X is a branch of the original language Y. Indeed, in the worst extremes, it often implies that "speakers of X are really just the same as speakers of Y" too.
I see what you mean, there is no definitive English except the one that's been politically decided. Maybe I have misunderstood, but it seems like you are still throwing out the idea of overarching categories though.

[osarusan]

Maybe I have misunderstood, but it seems like you are still throwing out the idea of overarching categories though.

What do you mean by 'overarching categories'?

[ped_ped]

Surely categories aren't an issue, as long as one language is not deemed to be the 'origin' of a category. To say that Irish, Scottish and Manx Gaelic belong in the one category is fine, once none of the three is deemed higher than the other two.

[Spudulika]

That makes it a dialect.

No, unfortunately, otherwise it would be more easily solved. If one were to pursue such a theory then we would not have anglo-saxon languages, rather anglo-saxon language, or romance languages would become romance language. Serbian is quite distinct from Croatian, the same as from Slovenian and Macedonian, while in Kosovo it is more unusual for me. I worked and played with Janjevci (a large number were settled near where I lived) and while their cuture was very distinctly Albanian, they spoke a form of Serbian that was very different to local Croatian - with a lot of Albanian words.

edit: Forgot the categories, this feeds back to language groups or families so CD would be correct to say that languages could be parts of categories or groups, like the examples above - a-s, romance etc. However within these there are variations, slavic for example - knowing Croatian doesn't mean you can understand Russian, but you can grasp it a little easier, like English and German, French and Spanish etc.

[Gather round]

So, as Max Weinreich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weinreich) almost said, is "a language...a dialect with an Army, a Navy...and a UVF?" :o


Were [the IRA] representing the Irish state?

Silly me, confusing the Irish Republic and its (self-styled) Army :)

Whether people's collective memory is of State or Paramilitary violence, don't ye think both are equally valid?