The Flag Issue/Cheist an Bratach/The Fleg Prooblum

[osarusan]

So, as Max Weinreich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weinreich) almost said, is "a language...a dialect with an Army, a Navy...and a UVF?" :o


Yes indeed, I had forgotten that comment. It's actually very insightful in terms of language and power (apart from the UVF bit, of course).

[Gather round]

Yes indeed, I had forgotten that comment. It's actually very insightful in terms of language and power (apart from the UVF bit, of course)

Aye, it's a medley of Maxi W feat. the Rangers Supporters Choir :) (http://www.rangerspedia.org/index.php/Three_Cheers_For_The_Red,_White_And_Blue)

[BonnieShels]

On a side note, I have to admit that before this thread I never knew the Irish word for fleg.

Tut tut.


Until this thread, I hadn't even known the Ulster Scots word for "problem"!

Some genuinely enjoyable reading, this: http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

I made up the word because I couldn't find any indication on the web for the "translation" for 'issue' and/or 'problem'.

I just said 'problem' in an North Antrim accent and hoped for the best. :)

[DannyInvincible]

I made up the word because I couldn't find any indication on the web for the "translation" for 'issue' and/or 'problem'.

I just said 'problem' in an North Antrim accent and hoped for the best. :)

Check thon oot: http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/


Ischew, Ishue, Issue, v. Also: ishew, ishowe, ishw.


Problem(e, Problewm, n. Also: probleam(e, problam(e, probleume, problowme.

[Spudulika]

Weird development in how the latest antics up north are playing out around the world. If you watch www.rt.com they are absolutely loving giving Westminster a kick and while the station is funnier than the Comedy Channel (though they don't seem to realise how absolutely hilarious they are at times) they have gotten in with some of the "loyalists" and one big hefty numpty began about the flag, then segwayed into "and we don't get the same benefits as them, and they're taking over the place". The reporter (a big of a headcase from England) pointed out that anybody she spoke to from the "loyalist" side all came back with anger at how they feel power is slipping away from them. In Croatia they've covered it purely from the "republican" view point and HRT have a tv crew in Belfast.

[Gather round]

Interesting stuff. Given Croatia's recent history I'd imagine their coverage might be a bit more sensitive than some of the sneering from more peaceful Western European countries?

There are other similarities. During the Yugoslav divorce war(s) I remember watching a BBC report from a Serbian border village, the crew arriving shortly after a Croat militia had passed through. My understanding of the local language is limited but clearly the first woman they spoke to was screaming "The fcuking Catholics just torched my house!"...

[BonnieShels]

Check thon oot: http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/

All of that just looks like someone didn't use their dialling wand.

[horton]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01pwdcf/The_Nolan_Show_Series_2_Episode_6/

Panel show last night featuring a representative of SF/DUP/SDLP/Alliance with what can only be described as a heavily loyalist dominated audience discussing the flag issue/ongoing trouble. Was absolutely embarrassing to watch, NI still has quite a bit to go to really ditch the sectarian bigoted attitudes, and I couldn't help but think that IF there ever was the possibility of a united Ireland, recent scenes of violence would be nothing in comparison to what would happen then!

[Spudulika]

Interesting stuff. Given Croatia's recent history I'd imagine their coverage might be a bit more sensitive than some of the sneering from more peaceful Western European countries?

There are other similarities. During the Yugoslav divorce war(s) I remember watching a BBC report from a Serbian border village, the crew arriving shortly after a Croat militia had passed through. My understanding of the local language is limited but clearly the first woman they spoke to was screaming "The fcuking Catholics just torched my house!"...

Croatia is a strange little country with strange people. Nothing surprises me with them.

The depth of fear/hatred that runs between the two religions is shocking, though in fairness the Orthodox church (especially in Croatia) have made great strides in reconciliation, though the Catholic church is massively corrupt, though after losing their buddies HDZ they're not as cocksure. A big gripe is that during/after the war the Catholic church controlled aid into the country and basically led the people (especially refugees) on a merry dance.

[BonnieShels]

Croatia is a strange little country with strange people. Nothing surprises me with them.

The depth of fear/hatred that runs between the two religions is shocking, though in fairness the Orthodox church (especially in Croatia) have made great strides in reconciliation, though the Catholic church is massively corrupt, though after losing their buddies HDZ they're not as cocksure. A big gripe is that during/after the war the Catholic church controlled aid into the country and basically led the people (especially refugees) on a merry dance.

The Catholic Church would never be so underhanded. How very dare you sir.

[bennocelt]

Croatia is a strange little country with strange people. Nothing surprises me with them.

The depth of fear/hatred that runs between the two religions is shocking, though in fairness the Orthodox church (especially in Croatia) have made great strides in reconciliation, though the Catholic church is massively corrupt, though after losing their buddies HDZ they're not as cocksure. A big gripe is that during/after the war the Catholic church controlled aid into the country and basically led the people (especially refugees) on a merry dance.

Just curious how far those apologies went, since what they did during WW1 was pretty horrific.

[Gather round]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01pwdcf/The_Nolan_Show_Series_2_Episode_6/

Panel show last night featuring a representative of SF/DUP/SDLP/Alliance with what can only be described as a heavily loyalist dominated audience discussing the flag issue/ongoing trouble. Was absolutely embarrassing to watch, NI still has quite a bit to go to really ditch the sectarian bigoted attitudes

Aye. I almost felt sorry for Fat Boy Nolan trying to get a word in as compere. At one point I thought he was going to sit on the little bloke with the lisp to shut him up:(


and I couldn't help but think that IF there ever was the possibility of a united Ireland, recent scenes of violence would be nothing in comparison to what would happen then!

Well, you had two wars last time the border changed...there's more chance of a united Yugoslavia at this point.

[DannyInvincible]

Parachute Regiment flags have appeared near the Fountain in Derry in the run-up to the anniversary of Bloody Sunday: http://www.u.tv/news/Parachute-Regiment-flags-in-Derry/134fb0e4-556b-451d-ba07-eaaebe76d7bb


SDLP Foyle MP Mark Durkan told UTV the flags which were overlooking the Fountain area have now been removed, but said there may still be more in other areas.

"Whatever justification people might feel about flying other flags, displaying the flag of the parachute regiment in this city is deliberately offensive," he said,

"A provocative display like this can only cause distress and anxiety to the people of the Fountain as well as upset in the wider community. I hope that wiser community counsel will prevail and these emblems will be removed to avert the obvious dangers."

Sinn Féin MLA Raymond McCartney called for Unionist leaders to help have the flags removed.

He said: "Given the history of the Parachute Regiment in this city and the upcoming anniversary of Bloody Sunday the erection of Parachute Regiment flags is being seen as provocation in an effort to raise tensions in the Derry area.

"We now need to see leadership from within Unionism to ensure that these flags are taken down as those who have erected them obviously did so to create a reaction from within the Nationalist community."

[BonnieShels]

Cretins.

[horton]

The two flags in the Fountain were removed just before 7pm last night, there was a third erected in Drumahoe which presumably was also removed. What started as a protest against a democratic decision over the flag, has morphed into a protest about Sinn Fein having elected representatives, protests against inquiries into state involvement in Finucanes murder/Bloody Sunday, the Alliance party not being prod enough, the Parades Commission, the Historical Enquiries Team, the PSNIRA(love that name!), GAA grounds named after deceased republicans, unionist poverty(despite research proving over 30 of the 40 most deprived areas in NI are Nationalist/Republican areas.
At the same time as the Bloody Sunday march later this month, they are also planning a "British Civil Rights" countermarch, there is talk of a demo at the opening concert of the City of Culture shindig this weekend, and pickets being planned at GAA grounds. To me, it looked like this would all die down before New Years Eve, but by getting a reaction from nationalists in the Short Strand in Belfast, and deliberately planning roadblocks/protests throughout NI that would likely raise tensions/provoke a reaction from nationalist youths they've been able to sustain their media attention and keep the momentum going.

[DannyInvincible]

It appears the Union flag was flown from government buildings on 15 designated days during the 1950s: https://twitter.com/SteveDonnan/status/292210168798797824

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BA4jma-CYAAAPrW.jpg:large

Perhaps that also applied to Belfast City Hall?

Another interesting photo here with what appears to be an Irish triclour flying above Belfast City Hall:

https://o.twimg.com/1/proxy.jpg?t=FQQVBBhCaHR0cDovL2Zhcm0yLnN0YXRpY2ZsaW Nrci5jb20vMTAyMy85NjU0MDAzNzBfNTBhMWE1M2I5Y196Lmpw Zz96ej0xFAIWABIA&s=N9iJ7c3P3P2vbRiPSmwzCEWWNGOmbQU_8qJ09O1GBD4

Not sure of the history behind that or in which year it was taken.

[DannyInvincible]

The two flags in the Fountain were removed just before 7pm last night, there was a third erected in Drumahoe which presumably was also removed. What started as a protest against a democratic decision over the flag, has morphed into a protest about Sinn Fein having elected representatives, protests against inquiries into state involvement in Finucanes murder/Bloody Sunday, the Alliance party not being prod enough, the Parades Commission, the Historical Enquiries Team, the PSNIRA(love that name!), GAA grounds named after deceased republicans, unionist poverty(despite research proving over 30 of the 40 most deprived areas in NI are Nationalist/Republican areas.

I enjoyed Pure Derry's status update on Facebook earlier (https://www.facebook.com/PureDerry/posts/483087095071168):


BISHOP TO KINGS PAWN
Gregory Campbell calls for Equality Commission to investigate appointment of Monsignor Eamon Martin as adjutant Archbishop of Armagh. "Not another catholic!!" said Campbell.

"Once again no Protestants were considered for a top job in Northern Ireland" he moaned before returning to his own job of figuring out how everything is Sinn Fein’s fault.


At the same time as the Bloody Sunday march later this month, they are also planning a "British Civil Rights" countermarch, there is talk of a demo at the opening concert of the City of Culture shindig this weekend, and pickets being planned at GAA grounds.

Misguided and intentionally-provocative. Bloody Sunday wasn't an "Irish/Republican/Nationalist/Catholic Civil Rights" march; civil rights for all was the goal. Catholics just so happened to be the ones who found themselves in a "cold house" of discrimination; of course they would get behind the civil rights movement in significant numbers. It didn't mean the rights of impoverished working-class Protestants were excluded at the expense of solely Catholic interests. Ivan Cooper, one of the major figures in the NICRA who led the march on Bloody Sunday, was a Protestant, for example. Of course, many Protestants disowned him as a result.

[DannyInvincible]

Worth a read: http://garethrussellcidevant.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-protestants-of-ireland-know-nothing.html?m=1


Part of the reason why I'm still a unionist is because I'm convinced it must be right in some way, because how else could it have survived for so long given its leaders? It has been Irish unionism's fate to be led, and controlled, by a combination of people who are either unpleasant, incompetent or both. No other political creed in history has enjoyed such longevity, whilst also being led by such a gallery of grotesques. Its survival is also all the more remarkable when one considers that, unlike Irish nationalism, Irish unionism has no real links to its past; only vague, and often confusing, messages, almost all of which resort to defining itself in opposition to nationalism. In a nutshell, what nationalism is, unionism is not. It has, moreover, no real heroes - again, unlike nationalism, most unionists know next-to-nothing about the great "heroes" of the unionist past. While figures like William III and Sir Edward Carson may gaze out haughtily from the banners of the Orange Orders or from six-foot-tall murals, the details of these men's biographies are practically unknown. Devoid of political folklore, unionism therefore resorts to putting much of its cultural identity into symbols, rather than people - the monarchy, the army, the RUC, the Poppy, the parades and, above all else, so it would seem, the flag. Once you understand that, you begin to understand why they're so protective of things that seem trivial to outsiders.

...

[BonnieShels]

Worth a read: http://garethrussellcidevant.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-protestants-of-ireland-know-nothing.html?m=1

Had a quick scan. Beer calls. But it seems like a good read.

[Gather round]

Worth a read: http://garethrussellcidevant.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-protestants-of-ireland-know-nothing.html?m=1

I think the lack of detailed biographical knowledge of say, King Billy or Ned Carson might have a more obvious explanation: they're just two of the numerous icons of British and Empire history we learned about by rote at school. And in Billy's case, their importance is more symbolic than real, apart from being centuries old.

Anyway, such knowledge may be over-rated: Eddie Coll got himself elected to 21 years as Taoiseach and another 14 as Pres despite a back story that was largely of his own imagination.

[Not Brazil]

Parachute Regiment flags have appeared near the Fountain in Derry in the run-up to the anniversary of Bloody Sunday

That's disgusting DI.

Some "Loyalists" forget that the first victims of the Paras in Northern Ireland were Loyalists killed on the Shankill Road.

[DannyInvincible]

Finally got round to watching The Nolan Show from the other evening. The incessant clapping and hollering of the overzealous rent-a-mob made decent discussion virtually impossible. It grew very irritating. One audience member even demanded that Gerry Kelly remove his glasses! :confused:

Anyway, if Jeffrey Donaldson and the DUP are primarily about "consensus politics", what would their gripe be with flying the tricolour beside the Union flag? Besides, the current compromise solution is a concession to an essentially unionist position in that the Union flag is still the only flag that will fly above Belfast City Hall, albeit on those designated days. It hasn't been replaced by a tricolour, so to suggest the unionist position has been ignored is simply dishonest, never mind the alarmist accusations that the unionist tradition has been trampled upon by Sinn Féin/nationalism/Alliance/Tom, Dick and Harry!

[Gather round]

Finally got round to watching The Nolan Show from the other evening. The incessant clapping and hollering of the overzealous rent-a-mob made decent discussion virtually impossible. It grew very irritating

Politics red in tooth and claw, eh? I hear the Jeremy Kyle show on daytime is pretty similar :)


Anyway, if Jeffrey Donaldson and the DUP are primarily about "consensus politics", what would their gripe be with flying the tricolour beside the Union flag?

Ignoring SF's end of partition fantasy in smaller Councils up-country is one thing, allowing it in Belfast City Hall entirely different. Just too embarrassing. Of course, a possibly imminent problem for the Dupes is that if/ when Nationalists swing two more seats and thus an overall majority, they might well suggest flying the tric on its own...


Tom, Dick and Harry!

Tomas, Risteard agus Araild, please. Mo chara Mowlam etc. etc.

[peadar1987]

How is "allowing SF's end-of-partition fantasy" any better or worse than allowing the fantasy seemingly held by some loyalists that Ulster is some monolithic protestant utopia where catholics should shut up and welcome their unionist overlords.

There are two communities in Northern Ireland. Both are equally valid, both deserve equal treatment. And the sooner everyone on both sides realises this, the better.

[DannyInvincible]

Politics red in tooth and claw, eh? I hear the Jeremy Kyle show on daytime is pretty similar :)

People certainly have a right to protest/express themselves and all that, but the point of a talk show is to, y'know, provide a forum for debate and discussion.


Ignoring SF's end of partition fantasy in smaller Councils up-country is one thing, allowing it in Belfast City Hall entirely different. Just too embarrassing.

Embarrassing is one way to look at compromise, I guess... But if "consensus politics" is your game, then you have to be prepared to lose some element of face, surely.

On Sinn Féin's "end of partition fantasy", Gerry Adams launched the party's border referendum campaign today: http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0119/sinn-fein-conference.html


Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams has called for a border poll on partition and Irish unity during the lifetime of the next Northern Ireland Assembly.

Launching his party's campaign on the issue, Mr Adams insisted a single economy would be good for prosperity jobs and investment

The Good Friday Agreement allows for a referendum within the North on unity - the so-called Border Poll.

Sinn Féin has now stepped up its campaign for the plebiscite.

Speaking at a special conference in Dublin Mr Adams told delegates that the Northern state had been gerrymandered to allow for a permanent Unionist majority.

However, he said the latest census figures showed only 40% of people there claimed an exclusively British identity.

He maintained that was evidence that the political and demographic landscape was changing.

Mr Adams also said that the real cost of the British government’s subvention was much less that the gross figure of £17bn, and insisted that a single all-Ireland economy would be good for jobs and prosperity and would transform the political as well as the economic landscape.

Sinn Féin wants the poll over the lifetime of the next Assembly.

[Gather round]

How is "allowing SF's end-of-partition fantasy" any better or worse than allowing the fantasy seemingly held by some loyalists that Ulster is some monolithic protestant utopia where catholics should shut up and welcome their unionist overlords

Sinn Fein's fantasists are running local government. Nolan's p*ssed-up audience aren't, or ever likely to. That said, the DUP were foolish to encourage them before Xmas and cleary lost any real influence over them very quickly.


There are two communities in Northern Ireland. Both are equally valid, both deserve equal treatment. And the sooner everyone on both sides realises this, the better

Couldn't agree more. The thing is, there's only one actual country in Northern Ireland. That isn't going to change, there isn't going to be a united Ireland, joint authority, UN protected status or anything else in the foreseeable future. Given that, the Shinners' exaggerated hostility to most institutions in the country where they'll continue to live means that the equal treatment they'll get in response isn't likely to be particularly positive.


People certainly have a right to protest/express themselves and all that, but the point of a talk show is to, y'know, provide a forum for debate and discussion

Do you watch (or listen to) Nolan regularly? His style of aggressive shock-jockery is clearly to self-promote, not encourage reasoned argument.


But if "consensus politics" is your game, then you have to be prepared to lose some element of face, surely

Of course. The Unionist parties on BCC would have been better off supporting Alliance's flag compromise. But they would probably argue some losses of face are just too far. As would the Nationalists.

[peadar1987]

Sinn Fein's fantasists are running local government. Nolan's p*ssed-up audience aren't, or ever likely to. That said, the DUP were foolish to encourage them before Xmas and cleary lost any real influence over them very quickly.

The DUP are just as bad as Sinn Féin. Both want something that the other half of the community completely reject. The fact that the status quo is with them (due to centuries of invasion and ethnic cleansing) does not make their opinion any more or less valid.





Couldn't agree more. The thing is, there's only one actual country in Northern Ireland. That isn't going to change, there isn't going to be a united Ireland, joint authority, UN protected status or anything else in the foreseeable future. Given that, the Shinners' exaggerated hostility to most institutions in the country where they'll continue to live means that the equal treatment they'll get in response isn't likely to be particularly positive.


So you're saying that Northern Ireland shouldn't be treated as a special case on account of the deep divisions between the two communities, and should just fly the flag of the "actual country" in spite of the fact that this is against the wishes of almost half the population? I wonder would you have the same opinion if there was a United Ireland, and your unionist heritage wasn't being represented on civic buildings.

[Gather round]

On Sinn Féin's "end of partition fantasy", Gerry Adams launched the party's border referendum campaign today: http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0119/sinn-fein-conference.html

GA sounded even vaguer than usual in his BBC interviews- maybe he should have stayed in America to convalesce from recent illness. The Shinners would be better putting up an economist who can plausibly explain away that supposed 17bn shortfall. Gerry must still think he can blow a few bank heists out of his arse.


The fact that the status quo is with them (due to centuries of invasion and ethnic cleansing) does not make their opinion any more or less valid

Absurd exaggeration doesn't make your opinion any less 'valid', but does make it less likely to be taken seriously. Any invasions were centuries ago, for all the Dupes' faults they haven't ethnically cleansed. Spare us the mopery, eh?


So you're saying that Northern Ireland should just fly the flag of the "actual country" in spite of the fact that this is against the wishes of almost half the population?

Er, no. I suggested pretty much thre exact opposite, referring to a) Nationalist Councils up-country displaying the tricolor, and b) the possibility of BCC doing similarly if they get two more Nationalist seats for an overall majority. Merely pointing out that SF's aggressive anti-Britishness within Britain, is almost inevitably going to get a similar response from British people. Equal treatment, you might say.


shouldn't NI be treated as a special case on account of the deep divisions between the two communities

Indeed, as per my reply above. I respect SF's aspiration to a united Ireland, but would prefer they- and commentators liked you- stopped gurning about centuries of invasion. Haven't they got some local services to worry about? And who knows, a slightly gentler approach might even get them some floasting voters?


I wonder would you have the same opinion if there was a United Ireland, and your unionist heritage wasn't being represented on civic buildings

Dunno, too hypothetical. Mind you, if my Granny had had balls she'd be my Grandad.

[DannyInvincible]

Do you watch (or listen to) Nolan regularly? His style of aggressive shock-jockery is clearly to self-promote, not encourage reasoned argument.

I've watched/listened from time to time but can't say I'm a regular.


Merely pointing out that SF's aggressive anti-Britishness within Britain, is almost inevitably going to get a similar response from British people. Equal treatment, you might say.

Irrespective of whether or not you perceive Sinn Féin to be explicitly anti-British, they're not quite operating "within Britain". Sinn Féin abstain from Westminster, operating, rather, across the whole island of Ireland, including within what is a contested jurisdiction.

[peadar1987]

Absurd exaggeration doesn't make your opinion any less 'valid', but does make it less likely to be taken seriously. Any invasions were centuries ago, for all the Dupes' faults they haven't ethnically cleansed. Spare us the mopery, eh?

Did I give a time frame? Northern Ireland has a slim protestant minority now because of invasion and ethnic cleansing from the 1100s to the 1700s. So saying "there's only one actual country in Northern Ireland" like that gives some sort of moral authority over those who have a different ethnic identity is just plain ignorant.



Er, no. I suggested pretty much thre exact opposite, referring to a) Nationalist Councils up-country displaying the tricolor, and b) the possibility of BCC doing similarly if they get two more Nationalist seats for an overall majority. Merely pointing out that SF's aggressive anti-Britishness within Britain, is almost inevitably going to get a similar response from British people. Equal treatment, you might say.

So you think the status quo should be maintained, without compromise, until the nationalists have an overall majority? Sinn Féin are very anti-British, and I don't agree with that, I don't think that I've ever indicated that I do.





Indeed, as per my reply above. I respect SF's aspiration to a united Ireland, but would prefer they- and commentators liked you- stopped gurning about centuries of invasion. Haven't they got some local services to worry about? And who knows, a slightly gentler approach might even get them some floasting voters?

So would I. Acknowledging the reality of the history of Northern Ireland in terms of invasion and colonisation is something both sides need to do. The fact that your ancestors displaced the native population through force in what was indisputably an act of ethnic cleansing doesn't give you supreme right over the country, just as the fact that their ancestors were there first doesn't give that right to the nationalists.

[Charlie Darwin]

Dunno, too hypothetical. Mind you, if my Granny had had balls she'd be my Grandad.
In fairness, if your granny had balls your grandparents would be gay and you wouldn't exist.

[horton]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0IX6FWxSWfM
It seems the BNP are even getting involved in the protests. Maybe it's time to start a counter protest group to remind NI of the three ignored counties of Ulster that don't necessarily share the protestors sentiments?

[BonnieShels]

GR's attempts to belittle Irish Nationalism are a prime example of the fear within Unionism and Loyalism in general that the statelet is seeing what could be seen in the 1920's on it's creation. That the Nationalists are gaining a larger foothold in the areas of society that matter and the influence is growing daily.

Whilst Sf and GA may wish to end partition and you and a lot of people including nationalists and republicans believe it is a fantasy. They are expressing their wish for something that was agreed by the electorate of the whole of this country/nation/island in 1998 to come about. Whether the poll succeeds or not is irrelevant at this juncture. But it is defining within politics of Ireland what is the next logical step.

What we will face now over the next few weeks will be attempts by Loyalism and Unionism in general to base it on an economic argument that it is better as a constituent member of the United Kingdom than as a part of a United Island. What they will fail to see though is that by doing so they will further alienate people as they will be willfully ignoring peoples latent Nationalist desires.

Loyalism is on the backfoot. As a political belief it has always been about us-and-them. The unfortunate result of this is that "them" are going about their lives moving up in the world and becoming more influential and articulate than "us".

It reminds of a quote (I can't remember if it was in a movie or not) about how when the Irish went to the USA in the 18 & 1900s they just took the discrimation on the chin and moved up in society to the point where we had a president in 1960's (if you leave out Andrew Jackson of course) whilst the black poeple of the States kept on cribbing about how hard done by they where... etc.

Loyalism needs to wake up. Because no one else is going to standstill and sooner or later...

[BonnieShels]

In fairness, if your granny had balls your grandparents would be gay and you wouldn't exist.

Surely Ulster said no to Sodomy?

[Charlie Darwin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0IX6FWxSWfM
It seems the BNP are even getting involved in the protests. Maybe it's time to start a counter protest group to remind NI of the three ignored counties of Ulster that don't necessarily share the protestors sentiments?
"The PNSI stand by using water cannons..." - Gerry, is that you?

I'm always amazed by the ability of dominant groups within society to feel persecuted.

Also, I had to laugh when the lead guy said "there may only be 100 people here" and some guy shouts "300!" Anybody who's been following the pro-life demonstrations here (25,000 at yesterday's protest! Let's not question that figure!) will be aware of how some people's maths ability can desert them at crucial moments.

[Gather round]

they're not quite operating "within Britain"

Come out of denial, Danny. They live in part of the British state, paying British taxes, receiving British services and the rest. As I mentioned, they don't administer joint authority or some sort of UN protectorate. This is all self-evident, that there's a separatist movement in what's basically a local authority with long-term no overall control doesn't change any of it.


Sinn Féin abstain from Westminster, operating, rather, across the whole island of Ireland, including within what is a contested jurisdiction

Of course they don't really abstain- they contest the British national elections and sit in the British local government.

And are they really in a contested jurisdiction? For 40 years, English, Southern and foreign commentators have told us Unionists are hypocritical- they refuse to accept the will of British governments. True, of course, but a similar test should apply to Sinn Fein. They should accept reality- Southern governments and wider opinion for 90 years have accepted partition, and done basically nothing tangible to end it. The constitutional claim before 1998 was a joke and the GF Agreement since little more than parking in the long grass. Most parties and voters in the South would sh*t themselves at even the notional possibility of a united Ireland in five or ten years time. Remember, the Shinners aren't hoping to go it alone, in a Baile Andarsan Gaeltacht or West-of-the-Banntustan. They want to join another country- that makes deferring to its will almost inevitable, don't ye think?


Did I give a time frame?

Yes, implicitly by talking about invasions, since clearly they were ALL centuries ago. Either that or you think more recent British government actions are similar in intent/ effect to invasions. The first's largely irrelevant, as it's ancient history; the second's simply false.


Northern Ireland has a slim protestant minority now because of invasion and ethnic cleansing from the 1100s to the 1700s

Actually, it has a 42% minority that votes for Nationalist parties in elections. 16% is a long way behind for a single-issue movement that is largely incapable- unwilling- to attract floating vote, let alone permanent support from Non-nationalists. Blame SF and SDLP because there isn't a united Ireland, not Cromwell and Strongbow. You might as well argue Australia or America are majority White/ Hispanic because Captain Cook and the Mayflower brought in guns, gin and syphilis. Historically fascinating, little to do with modern problems.


saying "there's only one actual country in Northern Ireland" like that gives some sort of moral authority over those who have a different ethnic identity is just plain ignorant

Actually, it doesn't. I'm not comparing anyone's morality, just pointing out SF's lack of realism on the one hand, and likely consequence of their antics on the other.


So you think the status quo should be maintained, without compromise, until the nationalists have an overall majority?

Did you not read the bit where I recommended compromise on BCC and accepted it beyond?


Sinn Féin are very anti-British, and I don't agree with that, I don't think that I've ever indicated that I do

Your reference to invasions and ethnic cleansing, clearly intented to refer to current politics rather than just old history, suggests otherwise. But relax, I'm not claiming you agree every line of SF policy.


Acknowledging the reality of the history of Northern Ireland in terms of invasion and colonisation is something both sides need to do

Both sides have done. The broad historical facts are almost universally accepted.


The fact that your ancestors displaced the native population through force in what was indisputably an act of ethnic cleansing

Have you done a PhD on my ancestors? As far as I know, most of them lived in poverty in Ireland as they had in Scotland, continuing until well into the 20th century. So to repeat, spare us the mopery.


doesn't give you supreme right over the country

I'm not claiming supremacy over anyone or anything. You're hysterical, have a lie down.

[BonnieShels]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0IX6FWxSWfM
It seems the BNP are even getting involved in the protests. Maybe it's time to start a counter protest group to remind NI of the three ignored counties of Ulster that don't necessarily share the protestors sentiments?

You'd think that some of them would be able to hold their Fleg the right way 'round.

EDIT: Incidentally this is trending on twitter: #MeetUnionJMakeABanner I chortled.

[Gather round]

GR's attempts to belittle Irish Nationalism

Harsh, Bonnie. I agreed on this very thread that NI Nationalists' aspiration to a united Ireland was valid. I notice you don't (can't?) actually answer any of the reasoned criticisms I offered of how it tries to achieve that aspiration.


a prime example of the fear within Unionism...that the Nationalists are gaining a larger foothold in the areas of society that matter and the influence is growing daily

Such as? I mean, which areas particularly matter? To what extent is that foothold growing in them? How will this affect something that matters tangibly, like election results?

You see, the thing is- as I mentioned above- that all this supposed greater influence isn't getting Irish nationalism in NI any new support from the only people who they right rationally want to attract, ie Unionists.


Whether the poll succeeds or not is irrelevant at this juncture. But it is defining within politics of Ireland what is the next logical step

Make your mind up, Bonnie. If you're going to convince Unionists that we're running scared, you'll need to offer something slightly more spine-chilling than, effectively 'there MIGHT be a vote, but we might not win it: although don't worry, we've logically re-defined politics!'

Of course there won't be a vote. Not in NI, because we know from every election for decades the strength of support for nationalism (ie, it rose sharply when SF stopped abstaining, then began to tail off because- as I said- there are no floating voters, and because migration rates and family size are roughly the same).

And not in the Republic, because it would be embarrassing for the entire political set-up if and when support wasn't overwhelming.


What we will face now over the next few weeks will be attempts by Loyalism and Unionism in general to base it on an economic argument that it is better as a constituent member of the United Kingdom than as a part of a United Island

Are you Rip Van Winkle, just awoken from a kip that began in 1922? For the entire period since then, Unionists have been able to rely on Britain providing an economic safety net. For almost all of it, Britain has been a more affluent country than the Irish Republic. Even the credit-fuelled boom of your Celtic Tiger years has been largely wasted on a property bubble rather than investing in infrastructure.


What they will fail to see though is that by doing so they will further alienate people as they will be willfully ignoring peoples latent Nationalist desires

Are you seriously suggesting that there is some hidden source of support for a united Ireland in NI that doesn't already vote Nationalist? If so, let's see some evidence?


Loyalism is on the backfoot. As a political belief it has always been about us-and-them

Given that its main opposition in NI is basically its mirror image in the us-and-them stakes, that discomfort might not be as terminal as your wishful thinking hopes.


The unfortunate result of this is that "them" are going about their lives moving up in the world and becoming more influential and articulate than "us"

Compare like with like. The Buckfast brigades bricking each other and the Police around the Short Strand aren't at all articulate. Mainstream Unionist and Nationalist politicians aren't that different in their fluency, or lack of it. See my example above, Gerry Adams waffling on TV last week about the budget deficits, something he clearly knows next to nothing about.


It reminds of a quote (I can't remember if it was in a movie or not) about how when the Irish went to the USA in the 18 & 1900s they just took the discrimation on the chin and moved up in society to the point where we had a president in 1960's (if you leave out Andrew Jackson of course) whilst the black poeple of the States kept on cribbing about how hard done by they where... etc

There were numerous Presidents of (part-) Irish descent before Kennedy, not just Jackson. As for the delay in electing a Black equivalent, I imagine a century of slavery followed by another of systematic racism, Jim Crow laws and the like might just have been a bigger factor than innate laziness and self-pity.

Do better, FFS.

[BonnieShels]

Ho. Dear lord.

Anyone who may drop in here from time to time knows my stance well enough at this stage. That you picked apart my post in an odd fashion means I'll have today til my Sunday evening ends and I'm back at my computer to respond.

[shantykelly]

GR, quick question - which nationalist majority councils have the tricolour flying over council buildings, either on designated days or all year round? Last I knew, most such councils operated power sharing for key positions in the form of d'Hondt procedures, ensuring elected unionist representatives are given the opportunity to fill these roles.

[horton]

Ho. Dear lord.

Anyone who may drop in here from time to time knows my stance well enough at this stage. That you picked apart my post in an odd fashion means I'll have today til my Sunday evening ends and I'm back at my computer to respond.
Bonnie:

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/33695871.jpg

[BonnieShels]

Bonnie:

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/33695871.jpg

I was on the bus on the way into a date.

Tomorrow I will pick apart his ******.

[Charlie Darwin]

I was on the bus on the way into a date.
Sounds like that went well.

[BonnieShels]

What gave it away...

I'm on foot.ie and watching Ravens v Pats.

Dry bitch.

[Gather round]

Ignoring SF's end of partition fantasy in smaller Councils up-country is one thing, allowing it in Belfast City Hall entirely different. Just too embarrassing. Of course, a possibly imminent problem for the Dupes is that if/ when Nationalists swing two more seats and thus an overall majority, they might well suggest flying the tric on its own...


GR, quick question - which nationalist majority councils have the tricolour flying over council buildings, either on designated days or all year round?

SK- don't know, although I'll admit to lazily assuming without checking that some do. If not, I stand corrected. I certainly wouldn't want to exaggerate or invent anythingl likely to increase tensions.

If they did, I'd accept that it would be a) locally popular with the majority community, and b) a response to the way Unionist- controlled Councils act in their areas. I would live with it.


Last I knew, most such councils operated power sharing for key positions in the form of d'Hondt procedures, ensuring elected unionist representatives are given the opportunity to fill these roles

Aye, mayors rotate and the like. If that works for all the main communities locally, fine.

Hope the date went well, Bonnie. Did you take the right red hand along?

[BonnieShels]

It was horrendous. As I said. Dry bitch. :)

I could have chopped it off and tiocfaidh'd it at her to be honest.

[DannyInvincible]

It reminds of a quote (I can't remember if it was in a movie or not) about how when the Irish went to the USA in the 18 & 1900s they just took the discrimation on the chin and moved up in society to the point where we had a president in 1960's (if you leave out Andrew Jackson of course) whilst the black poeple of the States kept on cribbing about how hard done by they where... etc.

No surprise it came from a movie rather than an esteemed sociology text. :p

I'm no expert on discrimination in the US and whilst the above claim - rooted firmly in folk mythology - might provide some nice sentiment for us "fightin' Irish" in order to help convince ourselves we're of tough stock and all that, I'm not so sure it would be fair to place anti-black and anti-Irish discrimination in the US on anywhere near the same pedestal. In fact, I could see very easily how the above might be perceived as racially offensive from a black perspective, as if to suggest the collective disadvantaged lot of African-Americans is primarily their own responsibility because they simply don't possess in their genetic make-up the traits of motivation, ambition or resilience that other groups, including the Irish, do happen to possess.

I think it would be naive to suggest that the primary distinguishing causal factors in determining the contemporary or latter positions of American society in which both social groups find or found themselves were their respective collective attitudes or psychological responses to the discrimination facing them. I'd attribute the varying degrees of social mobility generally experienced by the two respective groups more to the differing adverse surrounding social circumstances that faced them. No amount of "taking it on the chin" can improve your lot if there's just no opportunity for social mobility, and social mobility was undeniably much easier for Irish-Americans (as whites, albeit not of WASP descent) than it was for blacks, a class beneath.


"The PNSI stand by using water cannons..." - Gerry, is that you?

I'm always amazed by the ability of dominant groups within society to feel persecuted.

Also, I had to laugh when the lead guy said "there may only be 100 people here" and some guy shouts "300!" Anybody who's been following the pro-life demonstrations here (25,000 at yesterday's protest! Let's not question that figure!) will be aware of how some people's maths ability can desert them at crucial moments.

I'm sorry I missed that gathering...

The unexpected absurdity of the final words of the video gave me a chuckle and reminded me of that King of the Sheep competition/"F*ckin' hell!" scene in Father Ted:

Lead speaker: "God Save the Queen!"
*Wild applause and largely incomprehensible roaring with a few shouts of "No Surrender" before volume abates.*
Solitary background voice: "Go on, Queen!"


Blame SF and SDLP because there isn't a united Ireland, not Cromwell and Strongbow. You might as well argue Australia or America are majority White/ Hispanic because Captain Cook and the Mayflower brought in guns, gin and syphilis. Historically fascinating, little to do with modern problems.

If they are primarily to blame, how might Sinn Féin and the SDLP have realistically gone about achieving a united Ireland in light of unfavourable demographics since and due to the contrived creation of NI? What was the root cause of those unfavourable demographics? Historical factors remain factors that have played fundamental roles in the realisation of our contemporary situation. It would be silly to discount them as merely "historically fascinating" given the obvious existence of causal relationships between the past and the present, never mind the weighty significance attributed to/attempts to derive political validity from historical events, battles and figures by members of both communities in NI.

By the way, do you view Sinn Féin's alleged anti-Britishness as a form of or something akin to racism/xenophobia? Admittedly, the British establishment often finds itself under fire in Sinn Féin discourse, but what do you mean exactly when you accuse the party of being anti-British? I pose the same question to Peadar.


And not in the Republic, because it would be embarrassing for the entire political set-up if and when support wasn't overwhelming.

This may surprise you as it surprised me: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1127/1224327144275.html


The survey shows that a substantial majority of people would still like to see a united Ireland but only a minority believe it will happen in the next 25 years.

...

One striking feature of the poll is a less partitionist attitude now than in 1987. At that stage when asked what constituted the Irish nation 38 per cent said the 26 counties and 56 per cent said the 32 counties with 6 per cent having no opinion.

In 2012 the proportion saying the 32 counties has remained exactly the same at 56 per cent. But the number saying 26 counties has dropped to 27 per cent while the number with no opinion has jumped to 18 per cent.

In line with other questions about the North those with no opinion is higher among the 18 to 34 age group with almost a third of them in that category.

The drop in adherence to a purely southern Irish identity and the growing acceptance of a dual identity in the North is clearly a response to the Belfast Agreement and the new era in North-South and British-Irish relations.

This is also reflected in the response to the question as to whether a united Ireland is something to be hoped for. Those saying Yes is still substantial at 64 per cent but it has declined since the 1980s. Even more striking, though, is that the number saying that they would prefer not to see a united Ireland has halved to 8 per cent since 1987.

Again there has been a steep rise in the proportion with no opinion, which has doubled to 28 per cent since 1987. Among younger people aged between 18 and 34 the proportion with no opinion is higher again with 37 per cent having no view.

Interestingly, Fianna Fáil voters were strongest in the view that a united Ireland was something to be hoped for. And, strangely, Sinn Féin voters were not as enthusiastic as Fine Gael supporters, despite the fact that Sinn Féin is the only one actively campaigning for unity.

Given the large number with no opinion on the subject it is interesting to note that 69 per cent of people say they would still favour a united Ireland even if they had to pay more in taxation to support it. Just 20 per cent said they would not favour unity in those circumstances while 11 per cent had no opinion.

While there is still strong support for a united Ireland, a majority do not believe that it would happen in the near future.

Asked which of the assertions came closest to their views, 35 per cent said Northern Ireland would never be reunited with the South, 6 per cent said it would be reunited in 10 years, 16 per cent in 25 years, 15 per cent in 50 years, 8 per cent in 100 years and 20 per cent had no opinion.

Curiously, Sinn Féin voters were significantly stronger in the view that there would never be unity than supporters of other parties.


There were numerous Presidents of (part-) Irish descent before Kennedy, not just Jackson.

As far as I'm aware, there were a few of Scotch-Irish (Presbyterian) descent; a distinctly different social group from that of Kennedy. Buchanan and Roosevelt were just two of them remembered in loyalist murals in Derry in recent times:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3532/3767113898_601e8406dc_z.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3398/3197355555_5716acdffb_z.jpg

[DannyInvincible]

Did you take the right red hand along?

Is there actually significance in meaning derived from the positioning of the red hand's thumb? I've heard something about that before and assume that's what you're referring to? I'm not sure though that there is any consistency of use of the hand with thumb resting against palm or pointing away from palm depending on the cultural or communal identification of those displaying it.

'Ulster Banner' (away from palm):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Ulster_banner_.png

Blues Brothers' flag (against palm):

http://nominated.homestead.com/CFC_LOYAL_FLAG_SM.JPG

Red Hand Commando mural (against palm):

http://i41.tinypic.com/2vm5ws3.jpg

[DannyInvincible]

Some more examples...

Ulster Rugby crest (away from palm):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/Ulster_rugby_badge.png

Tyrone GAA crest (away from palm):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/95/TyroneCrest.png

[DannyInvincible]

Flag of Ulster (positioning appears to vary):

http://www.my-secret-northern-ireland.com/images/province-of-ulster-flag.jpg

http://u.jimdo.com/www21/o/sf8baaaab279158e5/img/i3f4ca115f38efb6c/1307291911/orig/image.gif