The Flag Issue/Cheist an Bratach/The Fleg Prooblum

[Gather round]

Well spotted Bonnie. Do I have your permission to post the same ancient gag in two different forums then?

[BonnieShels]

Well spotted Bonnie. Do I have your permission to post the same ancient gag in two different forums then?

Of course. Repost at will.

I've always found it fascinating how the kidnapping of a horse a year before I was born was always a subject we knew and discussed and joked about in school.

[DannyInvincible]

'Ireland won't be united so let loyalists fly flag – Seamus Heaney': http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ireland-wont-be-united-so-let-loyalists-fly-flag-seamus-heaney-3369083.html


NOBEL laureate Seamus Heaney has waded into the union flag row, saying loyalists should be allowed to fly the emblem in Northern Ireland.

The Derry-born poet – who once famously protested at being included in the 'Penguin Book of Contemporary British Poetry' because his "passport's green" – said there was "never going to be a united Ireland" so "why don't you let them (loyalists) fly the flag?"

Almost two months of angry loyalist protests have followed the new flag policy, which was voted in by Sinn Fein, SDLP and Alliance councillors at the start of December. The flag will now be flown on designated days, such as royal birthdays.

In an interview with 'The Times' yesterday, Mr Heaney warned that times in Northern Ireland were "very dangerous".

He said that at the start of the Troubles in Derry, the Irish Nationalist politician Eddie McAteer told him "both sides are entitled to their pageantry".

Back in the 1980s, Mr Heaney objected to his inclusion in the 'Penguin Book of Contemporary British Poetry' with the lines, "Be advised, my passport's green/ No glass of ours was ever raised/ To toast the Queen."

But in relation to the flag row, he said: "They (the loyalists) have an entitlement factor running: the flag is part of it. There's never going to be a united Ireland. So why don't you let them fly the flag?"

SDLP Belfast City councillor Tim Attwood last night defended the decision.

Mr Attwood said the SDLP "remains committed to creating an Ireland, as John Hume said, 'built on respect for diversity and for political difference'."

He added: "That is why the SDLP supported an honourable compromise to fly the union flag on designated days."

Should the possession of an "entitlement factor" necessarily justify the conservation of a status quo? Plenty of hegemonies have possessed notions of entitlement down through history, but it didn't necessitate or justify the maintenance of their power or structures. The slave-trade was founded on the notion of entitlement, for example, but the existence of a sense of entitlement was no reason to maintain it in light of better reasons to get rid of it. Of course, I'm not implying that unionism enjoys some outright hegemony in the north, nor am I comparing unionist power to the slave-trade; just using a fairly light analogy for the sake of argument in the sense that unionist identity symbolism is undoubtedly the more dominant in terms of visual culture in the north.

Besides, loyalists are being let fly the flag on designated days. The flag's display has been restricted rather than prohibited. Heaney may quote Eddie McAteer in relation to both sides being entitled to their pageantry (and I don't disagree with the sentiment), but there'll be no triclour appearing next to the Union flag on Belfast City Hall. Surely the logical conclusion of endorsing such sentiment would be to support the flying of both flags? And if a united Ireland is never going to happen anyway, then shouldn't the emphasis be on ensuring cross-community cultural comfort for everyone in the north rather than appeasing simply unionism/loyalism on this issue?

[geysir]

'Ireland won't be united so let loyalists fly flag – Seamus Heaney': http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ireland-wont-be-united-so-let-loyalists-fly-flag-seamus-heaney-3369083.html



Should the possession of an "entitlement factor" necessarily justify the conservation of a status quo? Plenty of hegemonies have possessed notions of entitlement down through history, but it didn't necessitate or justify the maintenance of their power or structures. The slave-trade was founded on the notion of entitlement, for example, but the existence of a sense of entitlement was no reason to maintain it in light of better reasons to get rid of it. Of course, I'm not implying that unionism enjoys some outright hegemony in the north, nor am I comparing unionist power to the slave-trade; just using a fairly light analogy for the sake of argument in the sense that unionist identity symbolism is undoubtedly the more dominant in terms of visual culture in the north.

Besides, loyalists are being let fly the flag on designated days. The flag's display has been restricted rather than prohibited. Heaney may quote Eddie McAteer in relation to both sides being entitled to their pageantry (and I don't disagree with the sentiment), but there'll be no triclour appearing next to the Union flag on Belfast City Hall. Surely the logical conclusion of endorsing such sentiment would be to support the flying of both flags? And if a united Ireland is never going to happen anyway, then shouldn't the emphasis be on ensuring cross-community cultural comfort for everyone in the north rather than appeasing simply unionism/loyalism on this issue?

You may have to reread all what Heaney actually said and read it in context. He's taking the píss out the Unionist mindset, using a literary style.
Not included in that Indo article was this quote in full
“Loyalism, or unionism, or Protestantism, or whatever you want to call it, in Northern Ireland it operates not as a class system, but a caste system. And they [the loyalists] have an entitlement factor running: the flag is part of it.”

I like it, 'caste not class'.

[SolitudeRed]

Yes was told about that quote today it did seem a bit odd like I presumed it was out of context, even odder is the fact that the 'Irish Independent' seems to like to publish and toe the same line as The main Unionist Paper up here the Belfast Telegraph which carried the exact same story. They are owned by the same group and all but you would have expected a somewhat different line to be taken on this article!

[Gather round]

Loyalism, or unionism, or Protestantism, or whatever you want to call it, in Northern Ireland it operates not as a class system, but a caste system. And they [the loyalists] have an entitlement factor running: the flag is part of it

Nobel Laureate, or Famous Seamus, or the Culchie Bigot is blowing it out of his a*rse there. It's a different nationality to yours, nothing to do with a caste system that anyone who actually lived under one would recognise.


Yes was told about that quote today it did seem a bit odd like I presumed it was out of context, even odder is the fact that the 'Irish Independent' seems to like to publish and toe the same line as The main Unionist Paper up here the Belfast Telegraph which carried the exact same story. They are owned by the same group and all but you would have expected a somewhat different line to be taken on this article!

The Indo often doesn't bother to edit Southern stories for the Bellylaugh. Which is likely to hasten the latter's closure.

[geysir]

Nobel Laureate, or Famous Seamus, or the Culchie Bigot is blowing it out of his a*rse there. It's a different nationality to yours, nothing to do with a caste system that anyone who actually lived under one would recognise.
Have you ever lived under a caste system?
A non Irish caste system of course:eek:

Is Heaney a culchie bigot, in your opinion?

[DannyInvincible]

You may have to reread all what Heaney actually said and read it in context. He's taking the píss out the Unionist mindset, using a literary style.

So he's being ironic/not being serious when he suggests the flag be let fly all year round?

[geysir]

So he's being ironic/not being serious when he suggests the flag be let fly all year round?

I'd say he's saying that bit with a glint in his eye.

He thinks all will be lost over this marching season as the Loyalists won't let this flag issue go. He doesn't think the issue was urgent enough in the first place, compared to what will be lost due tothe possible prolonged reaction over the season, as they 'wipe the floor with taking pagentry to the extreme'.


Heaney on the flag issue

“It’s very dangerous indeed. Somebody made this remark, and it made me alert to a new possibility — they said, if this goes on until the marching season, everything is, in a sense, lost.”The Loyalists, he says, “perceive themselves as almost deserted. And right enough. I think Sinn Fein could have taken it easy. No hurry on flags. Jesus.” “What does it matter? But — it matters utterly to them. And now there’s no way they’re going to go back on it, of course. As someone who knows something of prejudice, from early on, I can understand the Loyalists — but the unremittingness of it ... I remember, at the very beginning of the Troubles in Derry, Eddie McAteer, a big Nationalist politician, he was like the paterfamilias of Nationalism. And he said, ‘both sides are entitled to their pageantry!’ Which was a rather grand utterance, but true enough. But there’s no doubt that the Loyalist side take the pageantry to extremes, they wipe the floor with the others.”“Loyalism, or Unionism, or Protestantism, or whatever you want to call it, in Northern Ireland it operates not as a class system, but a caste system. And they [the Loyalists] have an entitlement factor running: the flag is part of it. There’s never going to be a united Ireland, you know,” he says. “So why don’t you let them fly the flag?”

[DannyInvincible]

Was just reading about Willie Hay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hay_(Northern_Ireland_politician)) and it got me thinking about those who fail to grasp or acknowledge that national identity can transcend territorial boundaries. I've encountered many sceptical unionists doubting or disputing the validity of the Irish national identity of nationalists from north of the border; for example, "James McClean is Northern Irish!" they will assert, as they attempt to suggest he's "not really Irish". Willie Hay is a Donegal-born Protestant/unionist who possesses solely an Irish passport for functional purposes because he is not entitled to a British one. In spite of this, his own cultural identity is very much British and that is how he personally identifies, as is his human right, along with others from his community in east Donegal. Would those same unionists who dispute the Irishness of northern nationalists (in spite of formal and cross-border state recognition) apply the same standard to Willie Hay and dismiss his obviously-proud and deep-rooted sense of Britishness as being similarly bogus?

[BonnieShels]

Was just reading about Willie Hay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hay_(Northern_Ireland_politician)) and it got me thinking about those who fail to grasp or acknowledge that national identity can transcend territorial boundaries. I've encountered many sceptical unionists doubting or disputing the validity of the Irish national identity of nationalists from north of the border; for example, "James McClean is Northern Irish!" they will assert, as they attempt to suggest he's "not really Irish". Willie Hay is a Donegal-born Protestant/unionist who possesses solely an Irish passport for functional purposes because he is not entitled to a British one. In spite of this, his own cultural identity is very much British and that is how he personally identifies, as is his human right, along with others from his community in east Donegal. Would those same unionists who dispute the Irishness of northern nationalists (in spite of formal and cross-border state recognition) apply the same standard to Willie Hay and dismiss his obviously-proud and deep-rooted sense of Britishness as being similarly bogus?

At this stage surely Willie is a possessor of a Passport stating that he's a subject?

If alone with residency; what about his parents being born pre-1949 and therefore entitled to a UK passport by right and him therefore by virtue of that?

[DannyInvincible]

I'm sure Willie has exhausted all possible avenues. He had no official recognition - be that full British citizenship or British subject status - as recently as July of 2011 anyway and would have been required to fork out over £800 for naturalisation, according to the Belfast Telegraph, so unless something has changed since then...

I think any Ireland-born applicant has to have been born prior to 1949 themselves; subject status cannot be transmitted via descent, as far as I can make out, so a parent's pre-1949 birth would not confer any right to apply for subject status.

[BonnieShels]

I'm sure Willie has exhausted all possible avenues. He had no official recognition - be that full British citizenship or British subject status - as recently as July of 2011 anyway and would have been required to fork out over £800 for naturalisation, according to the Belfast Telegraph, so unless something has changed since then...

I think any Ireland-born applicant has to have been born prior to 1949 themselves; subject status cannot be transmitted via descent, as far as I can make out, so a parent's pre-1949 birth would not confer any right to apply for subject status.

Are you sure?

All things being equal: My maternal grandfather was born in 1915 in Dublin which was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, my maternal grandmother was born in 1928 in Dublin which was part of the Irish Free State. Both were entitled to the citizenship of both the UK and Ireland by my reckoning.

My mother therefore as a child of 2 British citizens (they didn't claim as such, but for the sake of this let's say they did) would surely have been granted citizenship.

The above scenario I am sure is replicated throughout Ireland.

I appreciate that Willie obviously has exhausted all avenues but it seems strange to me.

[peadar1987]

I think your parents have to have claimed it before they died for it to be valid. Not sure about that though, so I could be wrong.

[Gather round]

Was just reading about Willie Hay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hay_(Northern_Ireland_politician)) and it got me thinking about those who fail to grasp or acknowledge that national identity can transcend territorial boundaries. I've encountered many sceptical unionists doubting or disputing the validity of the Irish national identity of nationalists from north of the border; for example, "James McClean is Northern Irish!" they will assert, as they attempt to suggest he's "not really Irish"

Look a few pages back in the parallel 'Eligibility' thread and you'll find poster Ole Ole suggesting that- as a NI U-21 international- McClean can't be a proper Nationalist.

I doubt that Willie Hay has exhausted every means of getting a Brit passport- and in any case £860 isn't that expensive for a well-salaried career politician.

It's mopery, he's revelling in it.

[BonnieShels]

I think your parents have to have claimed it before they died for it to be valid. Not sure about that though, so I could be wrong.

My grandparents would have had to claim it. Then my mother would have had to claim it before my grandparents died.



I doubt that Willie Hay has exhausted every means of getting a Brit passport- and in any case £860 isn't that expensive for a well-salaried career politician.

It's mopery, he's revelling in it.

Completely agree. But that is the wont of a Super Duper.

[Gather round]

But that is the wont of a Super Duper

Beams are gonna blind me, but I won't feel (red white and) blue...

[BonnieShels]

Beams are gonna blind me, but I won't feel (red white and) blue...

I was sick and tired of every Tim, when I called you last night from Glasgow.
All I do is bleat and strip and sing, wishing every Tim was the last Tim...

[DannyInvincible]

Are you sure?

All things being equal: My maternal grandfather was born in 1915 in Dublin which was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, my maternal grandmother was born in 1928 in Dublin which was part of the Irish Free State. Both were entitled to the citizenship of both the UK and Ireland by my reckoning.

My mother therefore as a child of 2 British citizens (they didn't claim as such, but for the sake of this let's say they did) would surely have been granted citizenship.

The above scenario I am sure is replicated throughout Ireland.

Does this provide clarity?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland


British Nationality Act 1948

As a result of the British Nationality Act 1948, Irish citizens ("citizens of Eire") lost British-subject status automatically on 1 January 1949 if they did not acquire citizenship of Britain & Colonies or that of another Commonwealth country, notwithstanding that Ireland did not cease to be one of His Majesty's dominions until 18 April 1949.

However, section 2 of the Act allowed certain Irish citizens who were British subjects before 1949 to apply at any time to the Secretary of State to remain British subjects.

Applications had to be based on:

previous Crown service under the United Kingdom government;
possession of a British passport; or
associations by way of descent, residence or otherwise with the United Kingdom or any Crown colony, protectorate, British mandated territory or British trust territory.

No provision was made for the retention of British nationality by Irish citizens born in the Republic of Ireland after 1948. British subject status, as distinct from citizenship of the UK & Colonies, was not transmissible by descent.

For the purpose of the 1948 legislation, the United Kingdom was defined based on its post-1922 borders. Hence, birth in the Republic of Ireland before 1922 was not sufficient in itself to confer UK & Colonies citizenship. Persons born in the Republic of Ireland before 1949 became Citizens of the UK & Colonies by descent in British law on 1 January 1949 if they had a father born in the United Kingdom or a place which was a colony at that date (provided father was married to the person's mother).

In common with those from the Commonwealth, Irish citizens resident in the United Kingdom, whether they held British subject status or not, were entitled to apply for registration as a citizen of the UK & Colonies after one year's residence. By the 1970s this time period had increased to five years.

Ireland Act 1949

The United Kingdom's Ireland Act 1949 came into force on 18 April 1949 and recognised the end of the Irish state's status as a British dominion, which had been effected under the Irish parliament's Republic of Ireland Act 1948 which was brought into force in 1949. The 1949 Act provided that "citizens of the Republic of Ireland" (the new British nomenclature adopted under the Act) would continue to be treated on a par with those from Commonwealth countries and would not be treated as aliens in the United Kingdom.

Section 5 of the 1949 Act conferred Citizenship of the UK and Colonies (CUKC) on any Irish-born person meeting all the following criteria:

was born before 6 December 1922 in what became the Republic of Ireland;
was domiciled outside the Republic of Ireland on 6 December 1922;
was ordinarily resident outside the Republic of Ireland from 1935 to 1948; and
was not registered as an Irish citizen under Irish legislation.

British Nationality Act 1981

The British Nationality Act 1981, in force from 1 January 1983:

retained the facility for those born in the Republic of Ireland before 1949 to register as British subjects (section 31)
provided that Irish citizens, in common with those from the Commonwealth, would be required to apply for naturalisation as British citizens rather than registration after five years residence in the UK (or three years if married, or in a Civil Partnership to a British citizen).

British subjects retained the right to apply for registration as a British citizen after 5 years residence in the UK.

Access to British citizenship for Irish citizens

As a result of the above, there is generally no special access to British citizenship for Irish citizens. The facility for those born before 1949 to claim British subject status does not confer British citizenship, although it gives an entitlement to registration as such after 5 years in the UK.

Irish citizens seeking to become British citizens are usually required to live in the UK and become naturalised after meeting the normal residence and other requirements, unless they can claim British citizenship by descent from a UK born or naturalised parent. An Irish citizen who naturalises as a British citizen does not automatically lose their Irish citizenship.

Naturalisation as a British citizen is a discretionary power of the Secretary of State for the Home Department but will generally not be refused if the requirements are met.


I'm not certain. I'll have to give it a proper read over later.


Look a few pages back in the parallel 'Eligibility' thread and you'll find poster Ole Ole suggesting that- as a NI U-21 international- McClean can't be a proper Nationalist.

Nationalism can mean different things for different people. For some, it amounts merely to a cultural identification with the Irish national identity, whilst, for others, it represents an ideal with political connotations; an aspiration for Irish unity independent of Britain. There are people who identify with the Irish national identity in the north who'd be content to remain within the UK. Olé Olé may well recognise their Irish identity but might dispute their credentials if they proclaimed themselves to be nationalists.


I doubt that Willie Hay has exhausted every means of getting a Brit passport- and in any case £860 isn't that expensive for a well-salaried career politician.

It's mopery, he's revelling in it.

Perhaps, although not every British-identifying dweller/native of east Donegal is a well-salaried career politician. Hay's story made the news because of his public profile, but he'll not be the only Laggan native who feels culturally handicapped by this lack of official recognition. It's clearly a matter of principle rather than cost. No doubt, with parity of esteem and all that in mind, he wonders why he should have to fork out £860 for his identity to be formally recognised (through what he might perceive to be the "less authentic/pure" process of naturalisation) when members of the nationalist community across the border (the mirror image of his Laggan community, albeit more numerous in their minority status) can have their identity formally acknowledged from birth. He obviously feels he was born British and seeks recognition of that.

[geysir]

Look a few pages back in the parallel 'Eligibility' thread and you'll find poster Ole Ole suggesting that- as a NI U-21 international- McClean can't be a proper Nationalist.
What Ole Ole suggested and what you understand are 2 entirely different things.
Ole Ole does not suggest that a nationalist can't be a 'proper' nationalist and represent NI at the same time. Their 'proper' nationalist credentials are not at all questioned by Ole Ole, a nationalist player's 'soul remains intact' in an IFA shirt. It is just a question whether that nationalist integrity is regarded as represented or not, in the IFA shirt?

Ole Ole wrote
but if a player also identifies themselves as a nationalist, then consequently, they themselves can not view playing for NI as 'international' recognition, can they?

[Gather round]

If someone is a nationalist...yet pulls on the NI jersey, can they really be deemed nationalist?


What Ole Ole suggested and what you understand are 2 entirely different things

Aye, sorry about that. I don't have your impressive ability to read others' minds, and so have to respond to what they actually say. Even if it ain't what they meant to say. Is it a skill you learned from reading CB's poems?


Olé Olé may well recognise their Irish identity but might dispute their credentials if they proclaimed themselves to be nationalists

Nice sidestep.


It's clearly a matter of principle rather than cost

No, it's a publicity stunt. Willie doesn't want his neighbors to become British (which presumably they'd be much more likely to do if it cost £80 rather than £860), as it would lose him some imagined moral high ground.

[DannyInvincible]

How so?

And why do you perceive Seamus Heaney to be a bigot exactly?

[geysir]

A culchie bigot, to be more exact? :)

[Olé Olé]

Look a few pages back in the parallel 'Eligibility' thread and you'll find poster Ole Ole suggesting that- as a NI U-21 international- McClean can't be a proper Nationalist.

Aye, sorry about that. I don't have your impressive ability to read others' minds, and so have to respond to what they actually say. Even if it ain't what they meant to say. Is it a skill you learned from reading CB's poems?


Reading those comments, I just can't help but think why McGinn doesn't just abstain from playing for the North. If it's only a game of football then why doesn't he get these same mates around for a game of 5 a-side when he makes the trip home to Tyrone? Players might want to receive international recognition, but if a player also identifies themselves as a nationalist, then consequently, they themselves can not view playing for NI as 'international' recognition, can they?

I can't help but wonder what fuels Michael O'Neill to whisper into the ear of these types of players. Is he seeking to have the best players at his disposal in a calculated fashion for the interests of his career? Or does he simply Northern Irish and views himself as such?

That's an incredibly liberal interpretation of what I was trying to say there, Gather Round. Geysir didn't quite read my mind, I think he more managed to apply some sense of logic in his apprehension of what I was saying. Pity you didn't exercise the same approach.

I did not say that McClean could not be nationalist if he played for NI. I was attempting to contextualize how someone like McGinn or McClean would view themselves as nationalist and support Ireland, and by deduction, view Irish as their nationality. The correlation between this self-perception and how they view pulling on the NI jersey seems to be irrelevant to them, because both seemed to view themselves as nationalists first and NI footballers second- they have clearly expressed as much in their comments.

My comment most expressly outlines that McGinn and McClean are/were nationalists playing for NI, not that their nationalism is in any way compromised by playing for NI. You are completely interpreting my comment backwards and drawing an abstract conclusion.

This whole issue is something that has little relevance to my existence, given that I have barely been in the North and am too young to remember the Troubles. Nonetheless, it's an issue that interests me quite a bit. People who would be more associated with it drawing harsh and inaccurate inferences from my, what could be deemed, less-informed muses is rather tedious.

[Not Brazil]

My comment most expressly outlines that McGinn and McClean are/were nationalists playing for NI, not that their nationalism is in any way compromised by playing for NI.


Totally agree.

Irish nationalists are welcome to play for Northern Ireland, representing the Irish Football Association...if they are eligible.

[osarusan]

That's an incredibly liberal interpretation of what I was trying to say there, Gather Round. Geysir didn't quite read my mind, I think he more managed to apply some sense of logic in his apprehension of what I was saying. Pity you didn't exercise the same approach.

You are completely interpreting my comment backwards and drawing an abstract conclusion.

People who would be more associated with it drawing harsh and inaccurate inferences from my, what could be deemed, less-informed muses is rather tedious.

Here is what you posted, in full:

Interesting one that. The issue of identity gets kicked around here quite a lot. It's an interesting one to identify as nationalist but play for NI. Clearly, pragmatism and careerism provide the foundation for the decisions of the McEleney's et al. But is it really possible to identify as nationalist, whilst representing a side that in range of aspects, could be deemed completely at odds with your own beliefs? I've had a few posters jump down my throat when I make inferences like this, because this sort of attitude could be viewed as being contrary to someone's right to an identity.

If someone is a nationalist and supports Ireland, whilst living in the North, yet pull on the NI jersey, can they really be deemed nationalist? Does the term 'nationalist' not owe a significant degree of it's meaning and significance to the notion of a united Ireland? In which case someone saying their nationalist and pulling on the NI can't be referred to as such, no?

I think you are being harsh on Gather Round - i think his interpretation of your post is valid (though it may not be the only valid interpretation), based on what you wrote. DannyInvincible also wonders whether you would dispute their credentials of they were proclaiming themselves as nationalists.

[geysir]

I think you are being harsh on Gather Round - i think his interpretation of your post is valid (though it may not be the only valid interpretation), based on what you wrote. DannyInvincible also wonders whether you would dispute their credentials of they were proclaiming themselves as nationalists....... Here is what you posted, in full:

But, it's not in full is it?
What you quoted was a reply to a post written by (and where he asks some questions of) the last of the Fenian rebels, Predator.
Post 4920 (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1657823&viewfull=1#post1657823)

Danny wrote in reply in post 4921 (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1657834&viewfull=1#post1657834)

I would find it impossible to reconcile playing for NI with my own nationalist identity. But then, identity is a complex realm, professional football isn't my career and playing football for a certain team doesn't necessarily have to amount to an expression of that team's national identity for the player concerned.

then Ole asks more questions in post 4922 (http://foot.ie/threads/147164-Eligibility-Rules-Okay?p=1657913&viewfull=1#post1657913)


Players might want to receive international recognition, but if a player also identifies themselves as a nationalist, then consequently, they themselves can not view playing for NI as 'international' recognition, can they?

Just a normal enough progression in a discussion.

[Gather round]

why do you perceive Seamus Heaney to be a bigot exactly?

50 years of poems saying basically 'Nature red in tooth and claw as metaphor for centuries of British oppression'. We got it all in school years before teachers in the South, England in the rest of the World had ever heard of him. The caste system example quoted above was actually quite direct by his standards. Probably blurted it out straight after a liquid lunch with Salman Rushdie or the Dalai Lama.


It's clearly a matter of principle rather than cost [for Willie Hay]

If it was, he could have sorted it out years ago- as a bit of local constituency casework- for his 'only Brit in the village' neighbors. Whether by persuading a Home Secretary to exempt those individuals, or getting the fee cut generally. I'm afraid I don't believe his claim to have exhausted all options. Instead, he's using the issue as a variant of the old 'Themmuns get everything'. I'd very much doubt he welcomes Marty McGuinness's help.


That's an incredibly liberal interpretation of what I was trying to say there, Gather Round

Er, I quoted what you wrote- asking a straightforward if provocative question, then answering it yourself. Do you mean 'literal'? I used a simple logic, ie assuming you meant what you wrote. Any pity should be that you didn't explain clearly what you meant to avoid any confusion.

I didn't interpret anything you or anyone wrote backwards. I quoted what you said, which wasn't given any extra context by what you said in your next post. My conclusion was actually the very opposite of abstract. Let alone harsh or inaccurate. If you find challenge to your comments on a public message board tedious sorry, but them's the breaks.

[geysir]

50 years of poems saying basically 'Nature red in tooth and claw as metaphor for centuries of British oppression'. We got it all in school years before teachers in the South, England in the rest of the World had ever heard of him. The caste system example quoted above was actually quite direct by his standards. Probably blurted it out straight after a liquid lunch with Salman Rushdie or the Dalai Lama.
And that's it? your core reasons for justifying calling Heaney a culchie bigot?
Frivilous in the extreme.

[Gather round]

And that's it? your core reasons for justifying calling Heaney a culchie bigot?

I can do a bibliography, if you like?


Frivolous in the extreme

I'm impressed. That's like being dissed by Dana Scallon for being too Catholic.

[A N Mouse]

So if Willie Hay was photographed at a protest near a banner proclaiming ulster to be british, would that be ironic?

[DannyInvincible]

50 years of poems saying basically 'Nature red in tooth and claw as metaphor for centuries of British oppression'. We got it all in school years before teachers in the South, England in the rest of the World had ever heard of him. The caste system example quoted above was actually quite direct by his standards. Probably blurted it out straight after a liquid lunch with Salman Rushdie or the Dalai Lama.

So you don't like his celebrated poems... They may be indicative of a victim complex - whether his perception is valid or deluded is another argument - but do they really constitute bigotry? :confused:

[DannyInvincible]

Mark Devenport on Twitter: https://twitter.com/markdevenport/status/298857935017226240


57% interviewees for tonight's BBC Spotlight survey say there should be border poll within next 7 years

Stephen Dempster on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dempster7/status/298857232500666369


The really interesting part of tonight's BBC1 NI Spotlight will be how people would vote in a Border Poll - the figures will raise eyebrows!

What could that mean? I don't think a result in favour of maintaining the union with Britain would raise eyebrows - that being the status quo - so is it suggestive of a surprising majority polling in favour of unity or simply promotional hype?

I think the programme is on BBC One NI at 10:35, although won't be able to view it myself over here, unfortunately.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd guess it means more people would vote for unity than expected but it would still be in favour of the status quo.

[BonnieShels]

Was just gonna go to bed early til I saw this. Rats.

[Olé Olé]

I think you are being harsh on Gather Round - i think his interpretation of your post is valid (though it may not be the only valid interpretation), based on what you wrote. DannyInvincible also wonders whether you would dispute their credentials of they were proclaiming themselves as nationalists.

I wasn't making a statement; I was posing questions which did carry inferences but I'm not making a definitive statement, far be it from me to be able to do so. I wasn't stating that McClean playing for NI means he isn't a nationalist (as Gather Round decided to interpret my post). I was asserting some interpretation of the word 'nationalist' on the actual event of McClean lining out for NI. Of course McGinn is most likely to identify as nationalist, that's a well-known fact. I'm just pointing out a conflict that exists in these situations in terms of the literal meaning of the word 'nationalist' and the act of playing for NI.

[gastric]

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What could that mean? I don't think a result in favour of maintaining the union with Britain would raise eyebrows - that being the status quo - so is it suggestive of a surprising majority polling in favour of unity or simply promotional hype?

I think the programme is on BBC One NI at 10:35, although won't be able to view it myself over here, unfortunately.

Haven't really up read on this, would people in the Republic have the opportunity to vote and do we really want unity considering the obvious issues it raises? Happy to take their players, but personally I don't want the associated issues that would come with any degree of unity.

[Gather round]

So you don't like his celebrated poems... They may be indicative of a victim complex - whether his perception is valid or deluded is another argument - but do they really constitute bigotry? :confused:

Aye, I think so. But relax, I'm not suggesting he's a paramilitary or anything.


I'd guess it means more people would vote for unity than expected but it would still be in favour of the status quo

Looks like they want unity that is the status quo

NI to remain part of the UK- 65%

NI to be joined with the Irish Republic- 17%

Wouldn't vote- 12%

Don't Know- 7%

Source: MORI/ BBC


Haven't really up read on this, would people in the Republic have the opportunity to vote

No. Enda and Mehole will be relieved :D


and do we really want unity considering the obvious issues it raises?

As I've mentioned, for 90 years all your Governments and a large proportion of wider proportion haven't wanted it, whatever they said publicly or in the Constitution.


I don't want the associated issues that would come with any degree of unity

Remind us if you would? Ta.

[DannyInvincible]

Last night's 'Spotlight' programme is now on the BBC iPlayer for those who can view it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01qlfbk/Spotlight_05_02_2013/

Haven't seen it yet myself, but 65 per cent of those surveyed in their poll would support maintaining the union with Britain, whilst 17 per cent would support Irish unity. Full details of the poll are available on page 16 of this document: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/tv/spotlight/survey.pdf


Q.3 If there was a referendum tomorrow would you vote for...?

Base : All Adults 18+
SOCIAL
GENDER SOCIAL CLASS (4) NATIONALIST X SOCIAL CLASS (4) UNIONIST X SOCIAL CLASS (4) CLASS (2)
-------------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------- ---------------
Total Male Female AB C1 C2 DE AB C1 C2 DE AB C1 C2 DE ABC1 C2DE
Significance Level: 95% a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p
Significance Level: 99% A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P
UNWEIGHTED 1046 514 532 195 261 174 415 58 71 49 122 58 106 81 138 456 589
WEIGHTED 1046 513 533 194 259 173 419 63 78 54 134 53 98 75 128 453 592
100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
Northern Ireland to remain 683 327 357 131 176 113 263 **29 **36 **15 **46 **48 **93 **70 **122 307 375
part of the United Kingdom 65% 64% 67% 68% 68% 65% 63% 45% 46% 28% 34% 90% 94% 94% 95% 68% 63%
Northern Ireland to be joined 180 **114 **65 33 36 32 78 **25 **24 **24 **56 **2 **3 **3 **0 70 110
with the Republic of Ireland 17% 22% 12% 17% 14% 19% 19% 40% 31% 45% 42% 3% 3% 4% - 15% 19%
outside of the United Kingdom B n n n
Would not vote 127 *50 *77 25 32 20 51 10 8 11 23 *2 **1 **2 **5 57 71
12% 10% 15% 13% 12% 12% 12% 16% 10% 21% 17% 3% 1% 2% 4% 13% 12%
a
Don't know 56 22 34 *5 15 8 28 0 **10 3 9 2 2 *0 *2 20 36
5% 4% 6% 2% 6% 4% 7% - 13% 6% 7% 3% 2% - 1% 4% 6%
c G g
Columns Tested: A,B - C,D,E,F - G,H,I,J - K,L,M,N - O,P

(Edit: Sorry, the table doesn't appear to display correctly and looks a bit disorganised. I think it's dependent on screen resolution.)


Haven't really up read on this, would people in the Republic have the opportunity to vote and do we really want unity considering the obvious issues it raises?

Sinn Féin have called for a border poll in the north - which has resulted in mild ridicule from certain quarters - but I'd assume the electorate south of the border would also have to be consulted on the prospect of Irish unity via a separate referendum if one went ahead in the north and saw a majority voting in favour of Irish unity.

According to the Ipsos MRBI 50th anniversary poll, a substantial majority (64 per cent) of people south of the border would support unity with "69 per cent of [that majority, I think] say[ing] they would still favour a united Ireland even if they had to pay more in taxation to support it": http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1127/1224327144275.html


Happy to take their players, but personally I don't want the associated issues that would come with any degree of unity.

Take whose players? The FAI facilitate eligible Irish nationals who are willing and good enough to play for us. We don't "take" anyone's players.

Which "associated issues" would trouble you?

[DannyInvincible]

Aye, I think so. But relax, I'm not suggesting he's a paramilitary or anything.

In what way does it constitute bigotry exactly?


Looks like they want unity that is the status quo

NI to remain part of the UK- 65%

NI to be joined with the Irish Republic- 17%

I'm not disputing the figures in that a significant majority of those polled clearly support maintaining the union with Britian, but the phrasing, "NI to be joined with the Irish Republic", might imply that NI was to be subsumed into the already-existing state south of the border. Maybe, maybe not... But perhaps people would look at the notion differently if the idea of a completely new, revamped united Irish state was proposed?

[BonnieShels]

Thje phrasing of the questions and the obvious bias in its reporting made the whole experience a mockery. I was ashamed by that programme last night.

That they used phraseology last used in the 70s in the setting of the survey shows the fear that was there within the BBC that there may have been a different result.

I'm still so angry at Noel Thompson for ignoring the obvious bigotry of the bumpkin Foster last night. And as for the UUP, An Fear O Cinneide really is on cloud cuckoo land. They are screwed no matter how much of a mess the Super Dupers make of the flag issue.

[Not Brazil]

That they used phraseology last used in the 70s in the setting of the survey shows the fear that was there within the BBC that there may have been a different result.

I'm still so angry at Noel Thompson for ignoring the obvious bigotry of the bumpkin Foster last night

The BBC survey merely confirmed what we knew already - as evidenced by recent "Life & Times" surveys, which I have never heard anyone challenge as being biased.

The truth of the matter is that there isn't going to be a "United" Ireland anytime soon.

Now, When PSF have something constructive to "sell" on that front, I'll listen carefully to what they have to say - until then, their bland rhetoric and fantasy island nonsense doesn't cut the mustard.

In what way did you think Foster was "bigoted" last night?

[Not Brazil]

But perhaps people would look at the notion differently if the idea of a completely new, revamped united Irish state was proposed?

After PSF have drafted such proposals - I don't think they have even started yet - they'll be worth appropriate consideration.

[BonnieShels]

The BBC survey merely confirmed what we knew already - as evidenced by recent "Life & Times" surveys, which I have never heard anyone challenge as being biased.

The truth of the matter is that there isn't going to be a "United" Ireland anytime soon.

Now, When PSF have something constructive to "sell" on that front, I'll listen carefully to what they have to say - until then, their bland rhetoric and fantasy island nonsense doesn't cut the mustard.

In what way did you think Foster was "bigoted" last night?

Come on?

She spent the entire show on the defensive and kept on belittling the notions of Irishness and Irish Nationalism within this "shared" society she keeps bleating about through the other side of her mouth. It's unfortunte for her she is from Fermanagh, you'd think being surrounded by a majority Nationalist population she would be slightly more considerate and understanding of those notions.

I mean when you have to shout down Alex Attwood you really have to reconsider what you're actually arguing about.

[Not Brazil]

Come on?
She spent the entire show on the defensive and kept on belittling the notions of Irishness and Irish Nationalism within this "shared" society she keeps bleating about through the other side of her mouth.

Can you relate a specific example of Foster's bigotry last night?

[BonnieShels]

Can you relate a specific example of Foster's bigotry last night?

Right now, no. But once I have reviewed it again later on iplayer I will, with times and everything. Can't get better than that.
And if you're gonna split hairs on this... should I bother?

[Not Brazil]

Right now, no. But once I have reviewed it again later on iplayer I will, with times and everything. Can't get better than that.
And if you're gonna split hairs on this... should I bother?

Look forward to discussing that with you - I certainly didn't sense "bigotry" from her, but will be happy to change that opinion, once the offending comments are confirmed.

She run rings around Alex Maskey debating a Border Poll on the BBC a week or so ago - rarely does a Shinner get so bashed up as Maskey did on that occassion.

I'm not a fan of the DUP generally, but I believe Foster to be a capable politician.

[BonnieShels]

Look forward to discussing that with you - I certainly didn't sense "bigotry" from her, but will be happy to change that opinion, once the offending comments are confirmed.

She run rings around Alex Maskey debating a Border Poll on the BBC a week or so ago - rarely does a Shinner get so bashed up as Maskey did on that occassion.

I'm not a fan of the DUP generally, but I believe Foster to be a capable politician.

She's capable. But she comes across as a total and utter contemptable a lot of the times. She's mealy mouthed in relation to Nationalism and it seems that she gets caught of guard in regard to it a lot and starts talking in tongues.

I missed the discussion with Maskey. Though he's a twallop. Got a link?

[Not Brazil]

I missed the discussion with Maskey. Though he's a twallop. Got a link?

It was on the Nolan Show on 23rd January - not sure if it's on BBC NI I Player?

[BonnieShels]

It was on the Nolan Show on 23rd January - not sure if it's on BBC NI I Player?

I'll find it. Cheers.