Republic of Ireland V Slovakia - Friday, 2nd September 2011 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[freewheel30]

McGeady offers nothing in attack, so it was inevitable that Ward (who did make mistakes) would be under pressure. McGeady is being praised for offering defensive assistance to Ward; this is fair enough, but if McGeady was able to retain / use the ball higher up the pitch then there wouldn't have been as much defending to do. It was also Ward's first competitive game so he would have benefited from having a more assured, composed partner on the left wing - McGeady is usually just a bag of nerves, so Duff would probably have been a better option on the left.

Doyle is also getting too much flak I reckon. He's coming back from a bad injury, had been under the impression that he wouldn't be starting the match, and is also probably growing tired of having to repeatedly drop so deep to receive possession.

Whelan and Andrews don't make runs when someone like Dunne has the ball - they actually seem to just run up to the opposition's midfielders, effectively marking themselves out of the game.

[Stuttgart88]

Shaker, I was thinking last night that Gibson and / or Fahey would have moved the ball better. People slag off Gibson for doing no more than basic stuff, but he'd have been more than capable of improving midfield.

They had a straight line across the middle and once or twice we made simple passes through that line, allowing us a clear run at their back 4. It was simple, but we only did it about twice.

What we saw last night was two teams who are accomplished off the ball and one team reasonably accomplished on it.

I think Trap's tactic was to keep it tight and unenterprising, knowing we'd get a chance or two. In that respect he was right, but Slovakia are no great shakes. We should be prepared to get full backs forward and midfielders forward and prepared to shoot. I'm just worried that we're not able to.

[tetsujin1979]

Can't help but feel that the Slovakian manager studied the game against Russia from last year, and duplicated their tactics. Three in central midfield, doubling up on Mcgeady and ignoring the threat from our full backs

[holidaysong]

Take the scenario that going into the final game, we are on 18, with both russia and slovakia on 20, I don't accept that either team would play for the draw there, particularly slovakia because one they are at home and second a draw would not get them automatic qualification.

That is not correct though. In that scenario a draw would be enough for Slovakia as that would mean that they would beat both Russia on their own head to head but also would be top of the mini group of three should we also finish on 21 points.

[Crosby87]

Will Hunt start on Tues? He brings a certain energy that no one else but Duff seems to bring. Not that it always translates into anything of course.

[Murfinator]

I dont think that excuses Ward, he was marking Weiss (who tellingly ran riot against us so it was completely ineffectual marking) and was often getting dragged centrally by him. At times he was seemingly being made a fool of by the slovaks and made looked amateurish by drifting Weiss centrally and letting others exploit the space left behind. McGeady covered him time and time again but I don't think that had anything to do with ball retention. Either Ward had very strange man marking intructions on Weiss (no reason to follow him centrally at all with two DMs) or (more likely) he was diabolical in a positional sense and we had to sacrifice a winger just to carry him through the game.

[Murfinator]

Will Hunt start on Tues? He brings a certain energy that no one else but Duff seems to bring. Not that it always translates into anything of course.

I've always preferred that energy as an impact sub. McGeady knows the Russians better than any one so I'd imagine he'll be pencilled in to start this one, the 90 minutes yesterday would have done him the world of good since hes clearly lacking fitness. Duff is undroppable. Although if Ward plays like he did yesterday again we'd need to play 2 left backs so no left winger is going to be bustling with attacking energy.

[shakermaker1982]

I agree Stutt - Slovakia were there for the taking. I don't like disrespecting other sides when we are so often average but Slovakia were nothing to write home about. Solid but blunt up front. A dream 2nd seed team and we managed 2 points against em.

If Fahey was fit he'd be starting Tuesday. Nice tidy player who understands the basics of how a central midfielder should operate.

Do we go 4-4-2 again or will the Trap shore up midfield? I've got a feeling he'll go for the former and it'll be like a knife cutting through butter when the Russians pass and move the ball around Whelan and Andrews.

[holidaysong]

I'm trying to think would there be much extra worth from a draw than a loss in Moscow anyway... Maybe a draw would be just as worthless to us as a loss, save in the scenario where Russia might lose to Slovakia.

For that one scenario though (which is not completely beyond the realms of possibility) it is definitely worth taking a draw instead of a defeat. We draw in Russia and Slovakia beat them. Assuming a win for us and Russia in the other games and we pip them by one point to finish on 21 to their 20 points.

[geysir]

Excuses for Doyle but no excuses for McGeady, considering this was his first game in months after a serious injury?
You cant be serious!

[freewheel30]

Excuses for Doyle but no excuses for McGeady, considering this was his first game in months after a serious injury?
You cant be serious!

McGeady, in an attacking sense, played no better or no worse than he ever has in an Irish shirt. No end product, couldn't cross the ball, and had poor control. Same as his previous 40 odd caps, no?

[Noelys Guitar]

Looking at the Russian game yesterday Zhirkov was their best player by some distance (as he was against Armenia). So it is going to be O'Sheas job to keep him quiet (if O'Dea starts at center half). Arshavin made a great run for the goal but the defending was a joke. He was allowed to run half the length of the field. Its going to take one mighty performance to get any type of result but we are capable of playing a lot better than we did last night. Trap is likely to stick with most of the team again. Probably O'Dea coming in to replace St Ledger. Hopefully Long replacing Doyle. I would drop Andrews and bring Foley into midfield (better distributor of the ball and quicker player) but I don't think Trap will. Keane will have got over his jet lag by Tuesday and should play better. McGeady and O'Shea should be fitter for last nights game. Not sure what happened to Doyle but I can't see him playing that badly again if Long is not available. Felt like smashing my screen last night (especially when Andrews ran the ball into touch) but glad we know have another match to put things right.

[Bottle of Tonic]

One person in the pre-match thread predicted a nil all. As soon as I read it I feared it was going to be. Half an hour into last nights game I knew it was.

The nightmare scenario of us all finishing on 21pts but us in 3rd place was first mooted on here a few months back. Then I feared it was a very likely outcome but its getting to almost certainty levels now. To avoid such a suicidal scenario I am going to take evasive action and stick a tenner on a final top three of:
Slov 21
Rus 21
Ire 21.

I never win bets so this tenner could be priceless.

[Noelys Guitar]

I was listening to Kenny Cunningham and John Anderson on RTE radio before the match yesterday and they predicted the game to a tee. Both said if we started slowly and allowed Slovakia get into their stride then we would struggle. More interestingly both said the senior players in the team should not play to Trap's system if they feel it is hindering our chances of winning. They weren't advocating anarachy but suggesting that players who are unlikely to be dropped need to speed up the way we play in games at crucial stages.

[Metrostars]

It's was disappointing to not play all that well for the most part and still create a few chances for Duff, Keane, Cox and Dunne to win the game. Thought the central midfield pair were awful. Many times they did not help out the CBs as they rarely showed for the ball leaving Sledge and Dunne with no option but to hoof the ball up where Skrtel had a field day all night. It a basic thing a central midfielder does and they hardly did it, thus gifting possession back to them. McGeady does what he usually does, just when you think he's done the hard part by working himself into a good position with the ball, he delivers a poor end product. Duff was great as were Sledge and Dunne. I felt Trap should have changed tactics for the last 1/2 hour by adding an extra person in midfield and leaving one up top, maybe bring on Hunt, switch McGeady and have Duff move to the middle ahead of the CM 2.

As for Tuesday, I'm expecting a loss for us but there's hope as Russia showed they are no great shakes yesterday. It would be one of our most famous victories if it does happen but I not sure if this team has it in them to do it.

[Stuttgart88]

That is not correct though. In that scenario a draw would be enough for Slovakia as that would mean that they would beat both Russia on their own head to head but also would be top of the mini group of three should we also finish on 21 points.Are you sure that's how it works?

I thought it was: if we finish on 21 points,
Slovakia > Russia
Ireland > Slovakia
Russia > Ireland

So we can't be separated and it then goes to GD.

[geysir]

McGeady, in an attacking sense, played no better or no worse than he ever has in an Irish shirt. No end product, couldn't cross the ball, and had poor control. Same as his previous 40 odd caps, no?

No....

[Stuttgart88]

He's a confidence player. If he starts a game well he'll continue well. He should have been subbed on 55 mins. Not his fault he was kept on. It'd also help if his team mates found good positions. They didn't. the Slovaks found space at will.

One thing though: I'm glad we're not Scotland. I only saw the end and understand that they rode their luck early on, but those two penalties were unreal. The Czech dive was perfectly deceptive in real time so the ref can be excused, but the one that the Czechs committed just after was blatant. I'd be fuming. I think I'd prefer to be flat and utterly disappointed than livid.

[geysir]

A draw in Moscow would virtually guarantee at least 2nd spot, as long we win the other 2 games.
The scenario of all 3 teams getting 21 points - then its goal diff between the 3. Do we lose then?

[shakermaker1982]

I watched the last 10 minutes of Scotland and that is the kind of thing that would happen to us. Joy to despair in the blink of an eye. That was a stonewall penalty for Scotland and I'm amazed Berra didn't kick off with the ref when he got carded for 'diving'.

[Noelys Guitar]

I watched the last 10 minutes of Scotland and that is the kind of thing that would happen to us. Joy to despair in the blink of an eye. That was a stonewall penalty for Scotland and I'm amazed Berra didn't kick off with the ref when he got carded for 'diving'.

Ref was woeful the whole game. Lets hope we don't get a 'homer' on tuesday.

[AlaskaFox]

A draw in Moscow would virtually guarantee at least 2nd spot, as long we win the other 2 games.
The scenario of all 3 teams getting 21 points - then its goal diff between the 3. Do we lose then?

We'd definitely be ahead of Slovakia on GD, they're +2 with Russia, Armenia, and Macedonia left. We're +5 with a game with Andorra to come.

Also, looking at the results, not scoring against Slovakia last night isn't a shock. Especially given they've only conceded in two games so far. That's a fairly impressive stat (except for the 3 goals in Armenia obviously).

[Noelys Guitar]

We'd definitely be ahead of Slovakia on GD, they're +2 with Russia, Armenia, and Macedonia left. We're +5 with a game with Andorra to come.

Also, looking at the results, not scoring against Slovakia last night isn't a shock. Especially given they've only conceded in two games so far. That's a fairly impressive stat (except for the 3 goals in Armenia obviously). True. Plus it has to be remembered Slovakia were missing come of their best players against both us (the 1-1) and Armenia. Having said that I wouldn't be surprised if they drop points against Armenia on Tuesday. They might defend well but they find it very hard to score as well.

[geysir]

Remember, a 3 way tie means only results between the teams are counted, so probably it's points scored are considered first, then we are in 3rd place.

I ... "would be a bit disappointed with that".

[DannyInvincible]

Are you sure that's how it works?

I thought it was: if we finish on 21 points,
Slovakia > Russia
Ireland > Slovakia
Russia > Ireland

So we can't be separated and it then goes to GD.

holidaysong is correct. We can be separated by points, but it's not our 21 overall points that have any bearing. Our 21 overall points and overall goal difference aren't even tertiary criteria in dictating who finishes where when two or more teams finish on the same number of points. Essentially what finishing on an even number of overall points does is create a mini-league of two or three teams depending on how many finished on the same number of overall points. All results against those teams dictate the standing within that mini table. If we finish even on overall points with Slovakia alone, we'll finish ahead of them, but if we finish even with Slovakia and Russia on overall points after drawing with Russia, we'll be bottom of that trio.

I posted up the tie-breaking criteria here (http://foot.ie/threads/154681-2-Sept-Slovakia-6-Sept-Russia-Thread?p=1527984&viewfull=1#post1527984). That was taking from the Wiki wording which I've double-checked is in the competition's regulations.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=UEFA_Euro_2012_qualifying&action=historysubmit&diff=447654349&oldid=447654017#Group_B) will demonstrate what I mean. It's a version of Wikipedia's Euro 2012 qualifying page from before yesterday's set of games. Although the Group B table is updated as it is currently because it's an embedded template, the tie-breaker table is as it was when ourselves, Russia and Slovakia were all sitting on 13 overall points. From it, you can see that we were sitting third out of the three despite having a superior goal difference to Slovakia in the overall table.


Team Pld W D L GF GA GD AG Pts
Slov. 2 1 1 0 2 1 +1 1 4
Russia 2 1 0 1 3 3 0 3 3
Ireland 2 0 1 1 3 4 −1 1 1


A draw in Moscow would virtually guarantee at least 2nd spot, as long we win the other 2 games.
The scenario of all 3 teams getting 21 points - then its goal diff between the 3. Do we lose then?

Goal difference isn't the primary deciding criterion. Points won in just those head-to-head games is.

[DannyInvincible]

Just to post up the tie-breaking criteria again because there appears to be some confusion as to where we would finish if Russia, Slovakia and ourselves all finish the group on 21 points after us having drawn in Moscow. We'd finish third in that scenario. Here are the tie-breaking criteria that would apply in such a scenario:


If two or more teams are equal on points on completion of the group matches, the following criteria are applied to determine the rankings.

Higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question
Superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question
Higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question
Higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question
If, after applying criteria 1) to 4) to several teams, two or more teams still have an equal ranking, the criteria 1) to 4) will be reapplied to determine the ranking of these teams. If this procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria 6) and 7) will apply
Results of all group matches:

Superior goal difference
Higher number of goals scored
Higher number of goals scored away from home
Fair play conduct


Drawing of lots


They can be found in article 7.04 of the Regulations of the UEFA European Football Championship 2010-12 (http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/competitions/euro/91/87/57/918757_download.pdf).

[BonnieShels]

Let's wait oul 6 o'clock on Tuesday before we worry about this.

[DannyInvincible]

Let's wait oul 6 o'clock on Tuesday before we worry about this.

See, I think the possible permutations are crucial to how we should approach the game in Moscow. I don't think settling for a mere clean sheet or a draw at any point will be enough for us as it relinquishes responsibility and control over our own fate. Surely depending on results going against Slovakia and Russia isn't an option. Plus, there's then the highly likely scenario of us all finishing with 21 overall points and us being ranked third. That would be a devastating pill to swallow. For those reasons, I think going for three points in Moscow is the only option we have now. Is that a "knee-jerk" or "gung-ho" attitude? I don't really think it is. The game really is that crucial. I see it as a "cup final" all-or-nothing type of affair now. Of course, the other benefit of actually going all out for the win in Moscow is that a victory would pretty much secure top spot in the group for us.

[DannyInvincible]

I think my primary fear is that Trap will set out for a 0-0. It is possible we could still qualify with such a result, but I think it's an unacceptable risk to take.

[freewheel30]

He's a confidence player. If he starts a game well he'll continue well. He should have been subbed on 55 mins. Not his fault he was kept on. It'd also help if his team mates found good positions. They didn't. the Slovaks found space at will.



You say he is a confidence player. Well it won't help his confidence if his teammates don't pass to him - which they don't, unless it's an absolute last resort. Just watching the game back, and Doyle, Ward, Whelan and St. Ledger all chose not to pass to McGeady during the first half, when it seemed that it would have been the sensible option. On a couple of occasions, McGeady was in clear space, yet, they chose not to involve him. This suggests to me a clear and obvious lack of belief in McGeady's ability on the part of his teammates.

[geysir]

Jesus Danny, I wrote in one sentence what took you 3 pages

[geysir]

Just watching the game back, and Doyle, Ward, Whelan and St. Ledger all chose not to pass to McGeady during the first half, when it seemed that it would have been the sensible option. On a couple of occasions, McGeady was in clear space, yet, they chose not to involve him. This suggests to me a clear and obvious lack of belief in McGeady's ability on the part of his teammates.
That suggests to me that we did not have the semblance of a passing game, even when a player is free in space.

[freewheel30]

That suggests to me that we did not have the semblance of a passing game, even when a player is free in space.

Some of this took place during the first 15 minutes, when we were keeping it on the floor.

[geysir]

So we were keeping it on the floor for a few minutes and had a semi-passing game going.

[shakermaker1982]

ok so we are ****ed then if we don't win on Tuesday.

Why? nicking a point over Moscow isn't even that big a deal because because knowing our luck Slovakia-Russia will be a draw (Slovakia beat Armenia & Macedonia 1-0 with 95th minute goals in both games) so we all end up on 21 points resulting us finishing 3rd.

[BonnieShels]

See, I think the possible permutations are crucial to how we should approach the game in Moscow. I don't think settling for a mere clean sheet or a draw at any point will be enough for us as it relinquishes responsibility and control over our own fate. Surely depending on results going against Slovakia and Russia isn't an option. Plus, there's then the highly likely scenario of us all finishing with 21 overall points and us being ranked third. That would be a devastating pill to swallow. For those reasons, I think going for three points in Moscow is the only option we have now. Is that a "knee-jerk" or "gung-ho" attitude? I don't really think it is. The game really is that crucial. I see it as a "cup final" all-or-nothing type of affair now. Of course, the other benefit of actually going all out for the win in Moscow is that a victory would pretty much secure top spot in the group for us.

Exactly. I never ever think of permutations for Ireland games as I always believe our first priority should be to win the game.

If we fail to win on Tuesday we should them consider the permutations. No point concerning ourselves with the triviality of it beforehand.

I'm also hungover and hungry so I don't have the concentration levels to consider anything other than a fried egg and tea.

[holidaysong]

In my opinion, based on this one crucial scenario (http://foot.ie/threads/154681-2-Sept-Slovakia-6-Sept-Russia-Thread?p=1528086&viewfull=1#post1528086), I feel the argument of going 'gung ho' for a win isn't worth it. A draw is quite valuable. Obviously not as good as a win, but it can't be dismissed entirely.

[Murfinator]

McGeady, in an attacking sense, played no better or no worse than he ever has in an Irish shirt. No end product, couldn't cross the ball, and had poor control. Same as his previous 40 odd caps, no?

Usually he'd get into good positions, skillfully round his marker, position to prepare to unleash either a cross or a shot and then 90% of the time produce the end product of the crowd having their head in their hands. He does actually have very good control, it was just off last night. Positionally he was forced back to cover Wards ineptness all night so didn't see the ball very much in attacking areas. I'd still start him against Russia if Trap devises a plan to sort out the LB area, if he plays the same gameplan again the Russians will target Ward all night long and McGeady will be forced backwards again to bail him out. Theres just no point playing McGeady if thats his primary job, there are better defensive wide players out there.

[AlaskaFox]

The lesson there is:
Ireland without Kilbane is not an Ireland we want to see. :(

[boovidge]

mcgeady behind a lone front man is something i'd be interested to see if trap insists on playing two CMs with no creativity in future.

[tricky_colour]

is it fair to say that in the 10 minutes Hunt was on the pitch we had more chances and looked a better team than in the previous 80?

[boovidge]

yes. but the team in general played with more urgency and slovakia were sitting back, happy with the point. i would start hunt on tuesday though.

[tricky_colour]

So if he had came on with 20 minutes to go would we have shown a similar improvement?
How about 30? 40? 50?...90?

Lets face it the first 80 minutes will not get a result in Moscow, no doubt about that.

[AlaskaFox]

I don't think Cox was given enough credit either. He had a similar impact to Hunt, and was always trying to get involved.

[jbyrne]

I don't think Cox was given enough credit either. He had a similar impact to Hunt, and was always trying to get involved.

agree, thought cox made a big difference when he came on. far more effective than doyle who i thought had his worst game for us friday. something not right with doyle, must be his knee, any word on this?

[Stuttgart88]

Did anyone notice when Doyle turned around to go off, Robbie clapped and offered him his hand. Doyle pretty much blanked him. I've always thought the chemistry between those two could be better.

I though Doyle had a thankless task. He was always on the end of desperate passes in positions where he could add no value. A forward like Doyle needs his midfielders to carry the ball and be on the end of give-and-go passes. Instead, Doyle only ever got the ball in the "channel" and was offered no support from an advancing midfielder.

On another note, that game was crying out for Coleman at full back to add some pace and enthusiasm.

We've got to find a way to add more invention and fluency while retaining our defensive capability. I'm not a footy coach so don't know the answer, but having two mobile, confident full backs would seem to be a start.

For Russia I'd pick Kelly or Foley and move JOSH into the centre with Dunne. O'Dea has done well but I'm not sure he's what we need on Tuesday.

[geysir]

is it fair to say that in the 10 minutes Hunt was on the pitch we had more chances and looked a better team than in the previous 80?
We were already putting pressure on Slovakia before Hunt came on, he was not responsible for Slovakia dropping deeper in those last minutes. Hunt was guilty of some sloppy play near the sideline but delivered an inch perfect cross which we should have converted.
But sure, Hunt should have replaced a clearly exhausted McGeady who was getting more sloppy near the the hour mark.

That cross was Hunt's only meaningful contribution.

[Predator]

O'Shea to go in the middle with Foley right back? Not sure I fully trust O'Dea just yet.

Swear I wasn't copying you Stutts...

[shakermaker1982]

I think he'll go with O'Dea at CB. I don't think O'Shea is aggressive enough for the Trap as a centre back. St Ledger is a massive loss.

Are our FB allowed to even cross the half way line? We could have Carlos & Cafu in the team & the Trap would probably tell them to play safe.

[paul_oshea]

Just saw oshea is a doubt on sky sports news.