Fenlon for Dundee United?

[Longfordian]

Currently in fourth place behind the Old Firm and Hibs.

[irishultra]

ok that is alot better, i thought they were like last but still i find it weird that its seen as a step up for a manager who has potential champions league football to join a 4th place scottish team.

[Northern Light]

it is a step up i don't deny, but the fact that is a step up is a sad inditement of football in this country. it's not like he's joining a team in a good footballing country, scottish football is a joke and dundee are one of the worst teams yet a trophy winning in ireland must go there to progress.

Scottish football is pretty good IMO for a country with less than 5 million pop. Sure it is skewed by the old firm and has declined in recent years as a result of the all encompassing reach of the Premiership - however the interest/coverage in the league even setting aside the old firm is many times greater than here. While much of the perenial difficulties with our league are of our own making a lot of it when you compare it to Scotland is just a result of the different make up of the country. Football pretty much dominates sport in Scotland (leaving aside curling:)) whereas here it is much more diverse - GAA, rugby, horse racing, greyhound racing etc etc etc compete for attention here much more so than there. He is going to a club that have at least four times the crowd that Bohs get - much greater budget - better players , better chance to make his mark (and who have never been beaten by Barcelona in European competition!) - i'd be ****ed off too if I was a Bohs supporter (though as a city fan I have bigger worries) but I think this one is just a part of football.

[osarusan]

Scottish football is a league where doing a decent job with a club other than the top two can see you get a job in England.

I'm sure that played a part in his decision-making also.

[Longfordian]

Yeah he's still young enough to make a good career for himself over there. The progression from we'll say SPL to Championship to maybe Premiership is one that's been done before a few times. It's easier to do than LOI to Championship anyway I would think.

[Acornvilla]

Yeah he's still young enough to make a good career for himself over there. The progression from we'll say SPL to Championship to maybe Premiership is one that's been done before a few times. It's easier to do than LOI to Championship anyway I would think.
owen coyle

[Longfordian]

Yeah one good recent example alright though he played in England as well which helps.

[Acornvilla]

Alex McLeish :)

[LeixlipRed]

Yeah one good recent example alright though he played in England as well which helps.

Fenlon played for Chelsea ;)

[Longfordian]

True LR, hopefully if that box needs to be ticked it works in his favour!. I quite like him, I reckon he's a decent fella and those I know that have met him now and then haven't a bad word to say about him so hope it goes well for him once he gets it all sorted out.

[irishultra]

i honestly think he sucks. he's not really that good. overrated.

[Longfordian]

I'm not normally one to jump to anyone connected to Bohs' defence but he clearly doesn't "suck". He's one of your most successful managers ever I'd imagine?. There's many arguments could be had about his budget etc at Shels and Bohs but he has delivered what he was paid to deliver at both clubs hence him being highly regarded by other clubs.

[Hairy Bowsie]

i honestly think he sucks. he's not really that good. overrated.

This lad just keeps getting better :D

[placid casual]

"What do you say when words are not enough"?

funny:)
as :)
fook.:)

[De Town]

i honestly think he sucks. he's not really that good. overrated.

I never saw you calling him overrated when he was winning you leagues and cups :rolleyes:

[SkStu]

i honestly think he sucks. he's not really that good. overrated.

seriously? Quit the sh!te talk. He's the best manager we've ever had.


It must be galling for Bohs fans to realise that Rovers fans know more about what's going on in their club than they do. Terrible isn't it :D

Get over yourselves Rovers fans FFS. None of this stuff that any Rovers poster is posting here is anything that hasnt already been either leaked to the press or posted on our messageboard. A messageboard that, unlike the ultra-sensitive ultras, we dont shut down when we get in a strop.. or issue blanket bans to opposition supporters.

[Bohs11]

For people saying that the LOI is inferior to the SPL in terms of standard then read this.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2009/08/01/following-league-of-ireland-s-blueprint-could-help-scottish-game-86908-21563181/

[irishultra]

I never saw you calling him overrated when he was winning you leagues and cups :rolleyes:

Fenlons ok in LOI but out of that he is out of his depth. last 2 years we had poor challengers. I blame Fenlon for Bohs failure to get past salzburg and indeed the latvian team the year before in intertoto. im not being reactionary im genuinely not a fan. the guy has small man syndrome and has an inflated sense of his own importance.

i would wecome damien richardson with open arms. i just think he has a bit more class than nutsy.

[HulaHoop]

Get over yourselves Rovers fans FFS. None of this stuff that any Rovers poster is posting here is anything that hasnt already been either leaked to the press or posted on our messageboard. A messageboard that, unlike the ultra-sensitive ultras, we dont shut down when we get in a strop.. or issue blanket bans to opposition supporters.

In all fairness Stu the stuff about Nutsy's interview in London, the details of his contract negotiations with Dundee Utd and the stuff about him being able to walk away from his contract because he was owed money was on the Ultras forum before it appeared in the media or the Bohs MB.

The same poster indicated yesterday that the FAI have rejected Bohs budget for the new season too.

[irishultra]

i'd say he thought he was so special having meetings in london. lol i almost pity him.

[de bowez]

It must be galling for Bohs fans to realise that Rovers fans know more about what's going on in their club than they do. Terrible isn't it :D

Think it says more about Rovers fans tbh. Obsessed.

[LukeO]

In all fairness Stu the stuff about Nutsy's interview in London, the details of his contract negotiations with Dundee Utd and the stuff about him being able to walk away from his contract because he was owed money was on the Ultras forum before it appeared in the media or the Bohs MB.

The same poster indicated yesterday that the FAI have rejected Bohs budget for the new season too.

I think you'll find the BBC link alleging Nutsy was in London made its way on to the Bohs forum 12 minutes before it made it on to the Rovers one. ;)

Fenlon won't be walking away because of bonuses he hasn't been paid yet.

[weecountyman]

While it's going to be tough for Bohs to lose a genuinely good manager, outside our insular little world (ie the world ends outside of Ireland and the UK) Pat Fenlon moving to a club in a higher rated league is making press reports for good reasons in Europe. Yesterday in Kicker there was a report on "Ireland's best manager" moving to Scotland, in Russia's Sovietsky Sport something similiar and even in Austria it was reported (possibly because of recent memories). Forget the bitter interclub rivlaries and for a minute let's pretend that all is well in the LOI, and more importantly that it means something outside of the 27 counties (Derry included).

[gufct]

The biggest laugh i had in a long time was Gerry Conways Quote about people leaking stories to the Press being mischevious. Not so long ago since the 2 Gerry's leaks burst in their faces over Sean Connor.

[marinobohs]

It must be galling for Bohs fans to realise that Rovers fans know more about what's going on in their club than they do. Terrible isn't it :D

..........just as it must be galling for Shams that despite such "know it all" fans they (1) went bankrupt (2) are still playing in a rented ground nearly 30 years after Milltown and (3) blew their only chance of a title in decades.
Physican heal thyself ? :rolleyes:

[marinobohs]

I think you'll find the BBC link alleging Nutsy was in London made its way on to the Bohs forum 12 minutes before it made it on to the Rovers one. ;)

Fenlon won't be walking away because of bonuses he hasn't been paid yet.

Agreed deferral of bonuses (according to this thread) ? How is that a breach of contract ? the fact is that it is not and therefore how can Nutsey "walk" due to a non existant breach ?
He is of course allowed offset bonuses owed against any compensation due (unlike other clubs Bohs honour what we owe) but to suggest he can walk is, yet again, ignorance of contract law (SEE Danninger V Bohs suggestion on another thread).
Perhaps Tallaght IT should introduce a course in contract law as there appears to be a real need there ;)

[Jicked]

He is of course allowed offset bonuses owed against any compensation due (unlike other clubs Bohs honour what we owe) but to suggest he can walk is, yet again, ignorance of contract law (SEE Danninger V Bohs suggestion on another thread).
Perhaps Tallaght IT should introduce a course in contract law as there appears to be a real need there ;)

You just read what someone else posted on the bohs messageboard right? :o

As far as I can see this could fall under the rule in Pinnel's case, and so a contract for part-payment of an already existing debt must be supported by fresh consideration. Now the original Pinnel Case has obviously been thrown in to some doubt by cases such as Roffey Bros, but even there was at least a penalty clause was sufficient consideration...what sort of consideration could Fenlon have been offered as part of this verbal agreement? I'm no contract law expert unlike yourself, so would be good to hear am I way off on this or not :)

[Shano Mac]

..........just as it must be galling for Shams that despite such "know it all" fans they (1) went bankrupt No we didn't, we went into examinership. There is a difference.
(2) are still playing in a rented ground nearly 30 years after Milltown So what? The cost of renting is pretty much the same as the cost of running the stadium. Infact the cost of renting is cheaper. It makes sence.
(3)and blew their only chance of a title in decades. 15/24

[marinobohs]

Is this "agreed deferral" in writing....?

Also, where in Bohs accounts is this rumoured €100k debt listed?

Apparently in form of verbal contract but I understand this to be binding in law (unless Nutsey is denying it happened). I have not seen accounts and don't know when the liability arose so it may not be proper to include it in accounts issued to date. Only speculation I admit, but as reliable as your views.

[marinobohs]

](1)[/B]You just read what someone else posted on the bohs messageboard right? :o

(2) As far as I can see this could fall under the rule in Pinnel's case, and so a contract for part-payment of an already existing debt must be supported by fresh consideration. Now the original Pinnel Case has obviously been thrown in to some doubt by cases such as Roffey Bros, but even there was at least a penalty clause was sufficient consideration...what sort of consideration could Fenlon have been offered as part of this verbal agreement? I'm no contract law expert unlike yourself, so would be good to hear am I way off on this or not :)

(1) No, much more fun here.


(2) thank you for your view and if Dundee Utd/ Nutsey wish to follow up on it I look forward to Bohs finally winning a court action (about time too). Lets not hold our breath on them taking your advice though.....

[osarusan]

Apparently in form of verbal contract but I understand this to be binding in law (unless Nutsey is denying it happened).
It's already been argued on here though that regardless of whether or not a verbal agreement is binding in law, it is specifically not allowed in the licencing process, where written agreements only are valid.

[marinobohs]

It's already been argued on here though that regardless of whether or not a verbal agreement is binding in law, it is specifically not allowed in the licencing process, where written agreements only are valid.

I doubt any breach of contract claim would be decided on by the FAI whatever about licencing provisions around finance they would not be able (or indeed want ) to tear up a contract between a club and a manager. Especially as Dundee appear to have made an illegal approach (Yes, I know it happens all the time) to fenlon in the first place.
I doubt it will come to that and expect the clubs to agree a figure somewhere between 50 - 100 K.(which in my view was all we could ever have expected) hopefully nearer 100K :)

[Jicked]

(2) thank you for your view and if Dundee Utd/ Nutsey wish to follow up on it I look forward to Bohs finally winning a court action (about time too). Lets not hold our breath on them taking your advice though.....


Erm, are you saying that Bohs would be able to overturn one of the fundamental provisions of contract law the world over, that consideration is required for a verbal agreement to be binding? (A bare verbal agreement isn't binding in law, despite what you said earlier)

I was asking what sort of consideration Bohs would have offered Fenlon for this new 'renegotiated' contract, which is where the rule in Pinnel's case may apply, i.e. that it was for satisfaction of a prior debt. If bohs didn't offer him any 'consideration', I can't see how that verbal agreement is in any way binding, meaning it would have been breach of contract not to to pay him as per the original deal.

So what sort of consideration could Bohs have offered him for that new deal, I'm not saying you'd know, but I can't even think of anything at all you could offer him in that situatino that would form adequate consideration from a legal p.o.v. And if so, what makes you think Bohs would win that case as you said in your last post?

[marinobohs]

From the bohs forum:


Looks like they have a new guy who has a clue. Wonder how long before this "members club" run him out like they did the last couple of intelligent individuals.

taking one post off a message board ! How wonderfully scientific and so typical of the shams. Show all the views expressed on the thread or don't bother.

PS so glad to see you have at least improved your sources ;)

[Réiteoir]

Now, don't you feel better about settling down? Take another sip of blackcurrant tea. You have discarded the emotive, abusive labels. That's real progress.

My earlier post regarded the talk about a financial settlement. You have now clarified that 'Fenlon free to talk to anyone' you meant Bohemian FC gave Dundee Utd. to talk with Pat Fenlon. It's good you recognise that.

Your point about IT and Emmet Malone shows itself as just your own bias, once you've explained yourself I understand it as your own opinion.

The tennis reportage will continue....... take another sip now.

Can't we simply save everyone the bother and substitute the blackcurrant tea for some Kool-Aid?

[Doomofman]

Not far off finding out if he's going or not now... Will be done by 6 either way

[Jicked]

Latest word is that the deal is off because of Conway's ridiculous posturing, Dundee Utd saying they simply can't deal with Bohemians board :D

Fenlon understandably not too happy as Conway is shafting both Dundee Utd and Fenlon, he may well resign if the deal doesn't go through, leaving Bohs with no compensation and being without a manager. If he goes to Dundee Utd anyway expect a hilarious court case! Very funny stuff altogether

[Dunny]

Dundee United has decided not to pursue any further interest in Pat Fenlon as team manager due to the excessive compensation demand made by his club and an unwillingness to reduce this. We now consider the matter at an end and will pursue other options.

http://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/index.asp?tm=2&nid=3389&cd=2010

[VinnyDCFC]

Dundee United has decided not to pursue any further interest in Pat Fenlon as team manager due to the excessive compensation demand made by his club and an unwillingness to reduce this. We now consider the matter at an end and will pursue other options.


Does that mean that Fenlon will resign over the weekend and Dundee Utd get him for nothing?

[Jicked]

Does that mean that Fenlon will resign over the weekend and Dundee Utd get him for nothing?


It may be so. I'd imagine Fenlon will be receiving a lot of legal advice from his own solicitor and no doubt from Dundee Utd's too. If he walks out on Bohs and takes up the Dundee Utd job on Monday morning then that leaves them open to a settlement, though that may be months/years down the line, and a more reasonable sum at tribunal than what that madman Conway is asking for. Amazing behaviour from Bohemians board yet again.

Oh and for those still suggesting Rovers forum spouts lies and doesn't have their sources etc, they broke the story about Fenlon's deal being off an hour and a half before Dundee Utd's official statement :D

[Doomofman]

http://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/index.asp?tm=2&nid=3389&cd=2010

He's staying at Bohs

[Jicked]

Wow....and they say being obsessed with Bohs doesn't pay off.

They've broken the details of the deal all the way through on the Rovers MB, meanwhile Bohs fans (and even their board!) have seemed in the dark right the way through. Hopefully people wont be as quick to dismiss Rovers fans as being completely clueless when discussing Bohs and the SCP in future!

[Dalymountrower]

http://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/index.asp?tm=2&nid=3389&cd=2010

He's staying at Bohs



Unlikely.

[Doomofman]

You reckon he'll just quit now?

[Jicked]

http://www.dundeeunitedfc.co.uk/index.asp?tm=2&nid=3389&cd=2010

He's staying at Bohs

Not necessarily, let's see how this one plays out over the weekend. Remember he openly flew back to have it out with Gerry Conway the other day, and the Rovers forum are reporting him as being furious at the way the deal broke down earlier today. Then there's the fact they have stood in the way of his career progression by asking for a completely ludicrous sum and showing how amateur they are in such negotiations. Would he still consider his position tenable?

[osarusan]

Not necessarily, let's see how this one plays out over the weekend. Remember he openly flew back to have it out with Gerry Conway the other day, and the Rovers forum are reporting him as being furious at the way the deal broke down earlier today. Then there's the fact they have stood in the way of his career progression by asking for a completely ludicrous sum and showing how amateur they are in such negotiations. Would he still consider his position tenable?

Given the compo negotiation, if Fenlon were to resign (as any manager can do at any time), is he free to just join Dundee? Or is only because of apparent breach of contract by Bohs?

[bluewhitearmy]

Couldn't Bohs turn down his resignation if he wanted to try that.

[SkStu]

here we go, three in a row! :D


;)

for the squealing pigs on this messageboard, im joking - dont get your kaks in a twist...

[Jicked]

Given the compo negotiation, if Fenlon were to resign (as any manager can do at any time), is he free to just join Dundee? Or is only because of apparent breach of contract by Bohs?

Well you're not really free to resign at any time, it would have to be accepted by the Board, otherwise the manager is in breach of contract.

If this was an ordinary case Fenlon would resign, Bohs would refuse his resignation. He would walk anyway, and sign a new deal with Dundee Utd. Bohemians would sue Pat Fenlon/Dundee Utd, and be awarded a sum by a tribunal. The way I see it is that Bohs saw SFA paid DU £300k for Levein, and ludicrously based their negotiations around that thinking they too should be entitled to such a figure. I'd say a settlement would be nowhere near that sum, and would take a long time to come through, probably not ideal considering Bohemians financial, erm, 'predicaments'

IF however Bohs do owe money to Fenlon then they're in breach of his contract. He can then effectively rip up his contract and walk away for free (or sue for the money/breach). He'd then be free to join Dundee Utd and Bohemians would receive no compensation for him. Some Bohs fans seem to say that he is owed money, but that a verbal agreement was reached to deal with this. Despite what Bohs fans seem to think, that verbal agreement is not legally binding, unless Fenlon was offered some sort of consideration for that new renegotiated deal, and I personally can't think of what type of consideration they could have offered him.

Of course Dundee Utd may be completely exasperated with the whole thing and no longer want Fenlon at all. Would Fenlon really go back to work at Bohemians, or would he walk resign? My guess is that he'd be so p*ssed off with Conway that he could no longer go on working for them, resign, and spend some time looking for a new gig in the UK, boosted by his now higher profile in the UK press. Again, this way Bohs wouldn't receive a penny. Of course Dundee Utd would still be looking for a new manager, so who knows, maybe the original title of this thread could be restored yet....

[osarusan]

Couldn't Bohs turn down his resignation if he wanted to try that.

Yes of course. Stupid me.