Irish Wolves and Opposition Irish

[Carrigaline]

Forde off for Jarvis. He did alright, a little sloppy at times, but tried a few shots which shows he has some confidence.

[paul_oshea]

awful bad again today.ward leaving loads of space out left as usual...which leads to a second goal for nasri

[Colbert Report]

Both of the Wolves full backs were terrible today, neither one is Premiership standard. Not sure if they're even Championship to be honest. Ward especially looked like he was playing the wrong sport.

[Charlie Darwin]

Ward was playing further advanced than Jarvis for most of the second half. That would never have happened under Mick. However bad they were under Mick, they completely lack direction now, which is a shame because they did actually outplay City until the first goal today.

[TrapAPony]

Both of the Wolves full backs were terrible today, neither one is Premiership standard. Not sure if they're even Championship to be honest. Ward especially looked like he was playing the wrong sport.
Wilson should be Ireland's left back and not Ward but alas Ward is probably one of the first names on Trapattoni's team sheet

[gastric]

Wilson should be Ireland's left back and not Ward but alas Ward is probably one of the first names on Trapattoni's team sheet
Parallels with Mick's continued use of Ian Harte at left back at the WC in Japan and Korea when he was continually exposed. Time will tell!

[Carrigaline]

Wilson should be Ireland's left back and not Ward but alas Ward is probably one of the first names on Trapattoni's team sheet
Is Wilson the answer? Ben Arfa made mincemeat out of him just this very weekend.

[Carrigaline]

Both of the Wolves full backs were terrible today, neither one is Premiership standard. Not sure if they're even Championship to be honest. Ward especially looked like he was playing the wrong sport.
I don't think Foley did that badly, he made a few mistakes, but the City attacks led to nothing most of the time. Ward on the other hand was shocking. You could drive a bus through the space that he was leaving open, and it if wasn't for some wasteful shooting from Aguero, the goal tally for Man City could easily have been double or triple what it was.

[Carrigaline]

Parallels with Mick's continued use of Ian Harte at left back at the WC in Japan and Korea when he was continually exposed. Time will tell!
Ward has only got the first choice left back position because of injuries and lack of alternatives. It would not surprise me at all if O'Shea ended up taking his position with St. Ledger and Dunne slotting in at centre back.

Still, I wish we had a fit and younger Kevin Kilbane to put in there, he would relish playing in this tournament.

[Stuttgart88]

I only saw highlights and it looked like Wolves were repeadedly undone by balls in behind the centre backs. OK, you could argue that a more vigilant full back will anticipate when the CBs will be stretched but I think singling out Ward is harsh - unless I missed some specific examples of him being poor.

Bear in mind that Trap's Ireland will be better set up than Wolves - in theory anyway. I'm hoping that June will be more like Slovakia away than Moscow away. Paris would be ideal.

[ifk101]

I wouldn't be too critical of Ward after yesterday's game. He was caught out of position on occasion but in the context of Wolves chasing the game.

[Charlie Darwin]

The first goal was just pure quality - no way you can blame him for holding his position, although I think on another day he might have gambled and swept up the through ball. He's done it enough times for Ireland. The second I've seen several times and I still can't locate Ward anywhere on the pitch.

[Carrigaline]

I think singling out Ward is harsh - unless I missed some specific examples of him being poor.

http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/xqayzg

I thought that Ward was at fault for both of the goals. In the first (build up starts at 4:20) if you look at the replay, you will actually see Ward is picking Aguero up. However, when Clichy starts his run, Ward allows Aguero to get away from him. Great ball from Clichy in fairness, so perhaps you can forgive Ward in that instance. The second goal (build up starts 5:50) was more blatant though. While it was a great break from City, Ward was nowhere to be seen when Aguero and Nasri exploited the space on his side to receive the ball and slot home. More awful defending comes at 7:40, Aguero exploits the space behind Ward and misses a one on one with the Wolves 'keeper. Last bit of awful defending starts at 8:15 when Ward gets sucked out of position and leaves Zabaleta with a ridiculous amount of space as he makes his run into the box and receives the ball.

Like I said, Foley actually didn't do too badly, he got forward a bit and defended alright. Bassong also had an alright game, was unlucky to pull up with a hamstring injury for the second goal. Stearman was useless though, his positioning was as awful as Ward's.

[Carrigaline]

Bear in mind that Trap's Ireland will be better set up than Wolves - in theory anyway.
He has had two serious tests in a green jersey so far, the Russia game and the Czech Republic game. He had a disaster in the Russian game, the lad Kerzakhov tore him to shreds and it's amazing we even kept a clean sheet in that game. The second was the Czech Republic game and he was not convincing at all, other than the fact that McGeady was practically play as a left-back, we would have shipped a few goals.

[Charlie Darwin]

Ward was marking Arshavin in the Russia game.

[Murfinator]

Ward seems to be responsible for most of Wolves defensive lapses, I always put his selection down to being a favourite of Mick but I'm not sure what to believe since O'Connor is apparently a fan of him too. Either way I could see this being the end of him, with the old brigade of coaching shipped out I don't think he has a future at Wolves, nor do I think he's good enough to start at any championship club.

You can mark my words, bringing Ward to the Euros will be a costly disaster. Every team will target him, most will get their rewards. Would take Harte or a repositioned RB any day.

[Stuttgart88]

Who'd ever have thought we'd be hearing calls for O'Shea to return to left back?

[Irwin3]

Bit harsh on Ward really although a top-class left back might have done better with the first goal. Although I think Niall Quinn (fairly decent pundit from what I've seen) stuck up for Ward on the first goal. Ward is not marking Aguero. Aguero (the striker who is normally marked by the centre half) goes into the space between Ward and Bassong. Clichy then plays a great pass that takes Bassong out of the game. Bassong is equally to blame if not more so. He is in no-man's land: he can't cut out the pass and he is nowhere near his man.

It's the classic full-back dilemma. Try to cover your man out wide (Silva) and help the centre back out with the striker. Unfortunately he ended up doing neither just like Bassong. Although there is more blame for Bassong for me due to it being his man and him meant to be the last line of defence.

For the second goal Ward is virtually blameless. Where is Stearman? They are both up for the corner. Wolves switch off. There are about 18 seconds from clearance to goal. The fact is that players don't sprint back from corners and when they realise they need to it is already too late. From looking at it a couple of times the player most to blame is Jarvis who lets Nasri and Yaya run past him and into the space. At 6.08 Jarvis is about 10 yards ahead of Bassong. At 6.15 Bassong is about 10 yards ahead of Jarvis as Jarvis gets drawn to Tevez leaving the 2 men free.

[paul_oshea]

The only thing ive seen about ward is his first touch and control. Granted it surely didnt take him 26 years to perfect that.

I wouldn't have said for definite the first goal was his fault either, but there are 2 ways to view this. If its zonal area covering or man marking, depends on your view. Initially Ward is marking aguero, just before the camera shot for the ball comes on it, it showed from another area, ward lets him get a couple of yards ahead of him and then when the ball is played it looks more like the CB should be covering him. SO the question you need to ask is, if Ward was initially marking him which he was, should he then follow him the whole way - I think so - or should The CB spot the run(of aguero) behind him and cover the area the ball can be passed into whilst tracking aguero - I dont think so. I dont necessarily blame ward for the first one, but I think its up to him as he can see the run of aguero with no one else around(attacking i mean) he should track his run and mark him, the CB cant see where the striker(aguero) is at that point.

I find it laughable that people still try and defend Ward, and say things like its not his fault "because i cant see him/because he wasn't there", he should be fcuking there thats his position....:rollshead:

I said last year stearman would be there undoing, turns out it was this year instead :)

[Carrigaline]

I find it laughable that people still try and defend Ward, and say things like its not his fault "because i cant see him/because he wasn't there", he should be fcuking there thats his position....:rollshead:

That's the problem I have. To me, it's pretty clear that Ward is not a natural left back. I don't think he is a bad footballer per se, but I think he is being made look worse than what he is by playing in a position that doesn't suit him. At a lower level, Ward might get away with this, but when up against superior opposition, he looks badly exposed both internationally and domestically.

[Stuttgart88]

I find it laughable that people still try and defend Ward, and say things like its not his fault "because i cant see him/because he wasn't there", he should be fcuking there thats his position.True, but who was defending him? I thought Charlie D's comment about him being nowhere in sight was actually a criticism. It's hardly a defence.

[paul_oshea]

That's the problem I have. To me, it's pretty clear that Ward is not a natural left back. I don't think he is a bad footballer per se, but I think he is being made look worse than what he is by playing in a position that doesn't suit him. At a lower level, Ward might get away with this, but when up against superior opposition, he looks badly exposed both internationally and domestically.

I was playing this in my head yesterday, the position thing, as I was thinking the exact same thing as you here, but then I thought where can you really play him? I dont think he could play as a winger either, the only real option was a sweeping midfielder in a 5 man midfield, he is an ok tackler and a decent touch with a good left foot to play the ball out of defense, but even then I felt I was clutching at straws. I just dont think he is a good enough footballer for the premiership or really even the Championship. I just hope he has invested his salary wisely over the last few years.

[paul_oshea]

Stutts, it wasn't an isolated comment or contribution but its been said a few times on here now.

[Charlie Darwin]

The only thing ive seen about ward is his first touch and control. Granted it surely didnt take him 26 years to perfect that.

I wouldn't have said for definite the first goal was his fault either, but there are 2 ways to view this. If its zonal area covering or man marking, depends on your view. Initially Ward is marking aguero, just before the camera shot for the ball comes on it, it showed from another area, ward lets him get a couple of yards ahead of him and then when the ball is played it looks more like the CB should be covering him. SO the question you need to ask is, if Ward was initially marking him which he was, should he then follow him the whole way - I think so - or should The CB spot the run(of aguero) behind him and cover the area the ball can be passed into whilst tracking aguero - I dont think so. I dont necessarily blame ward for the first one, but I think its up to him as he can see the run of aguero with no one else around(attacking i mean) he should track his run and mark him, the CB cant see where the striker(aguero) is at that point.
Left backs don't mark strikers. Aguero is the only player Bassong and Stearman had to mark and he lost them constantly. Ward is usually good at sweeping up centre halves' mistakes - he's cleaned up after Dunne/O'Dea/Sledge loads of times for Ireland - but on this occasion he didn't make the right choice. Doesn't mean he's responsible.


I find it laughable that people still try and defend Ward, and say things like its not his fault "because i cant see him/because he wasn't there", he should be fcuking there thats his position....:rollshead:
No, that was a criticism.

[SwanVsDalton]

I just dont think he is a good enough footballer for the premiership or really even the Championship. I just hope he has invested his salary wisely over the last few years.

He's five seasons a regular at both those levels, at striker, left-wing and left-back. Bit late to declare him a non-footballer.

Bit ridiculous too in fairness, I think the professional managers and coaches who've had the chance to work with him see it differently for a reason.

Just to be clear I'm not defending his form, haven't watched Wolves at all recently. But he does seem to be getting a serious savaging for what boils down to bad form in one of the worst sides the Premiership has ever seen.

If Richard Dunne was looked at purely on his league form over the last two seasons, his international career would be finished.

[Stuttgart88]

If Richard Dunne was looked at purely on his league form over the last two seasons, his international career would be finished.You could say the same about many Irish internationals over the years.

I think we all have concerns over Ward against teams as good as those we're facing, but I agree that some criticism is OTT. For the record, I think I'd start with Kelly (RB) and O'Shea (LB) as our full backs myself, but I'm not wholly comfortable with the way our back 4 lines out.

[SwanVsDalton]

You could say the same about many Irish internationals over the years.

Absolutely. Autopsying league form can be instructive but I think pretty much our entire first XI have been in a similar predicament as Ward in the past 12 months or so.

Never fancied O'Shea at LB, don't really think he's comfortable there as he is on the right. Always remember playing Wales at home under Stan. He played Finnan LB and O'Shea at RB after a few games of John playing on the left.

At the time I thought it was nuts but Finnan kept Bellamy fairly quiet and O'Shea looked more comfortable. Poor manager he may be, but Stan knew a thing or two about playing LB.

Trap really should've taken another look at Wilson. We should have two legitimate options in every position - even if Ward was a superstar, we're not well served at LB.

[geysir]

It's not a done deal that Trap will take just 7 defenders. Wilson is poor at full back, his positioning is ok, ball delivery mostly excellent but has the poise and effect of a lamppost when a player takes him on.

How has Cunningham been getting on at Notts Forest?

[Stuttgart88]

He aws on the bench last time I looked. I was wondering if Trap would include him as a wild card, but unlikely I think. Kelly & JOSH can cover at LB.

[geysir]

That would appear to be the considered plan.

I don't recall that we had any direct LB cover for Harte at the 2002WC

[Stuttgart88]

I think Stan was playing CB while Cunningham was on the bench (injured?).

[geysir]

Kenny C wasn't a LB, was he? probably out of the 5 centre halves there, Stan would have been the likely LB deputy.

[Stuttgart88]

That's what I was trying to say. We did have a back up LB, he was just playing CB...

[SwanVsDalton]

Harte was a lot more established than Ward too. Less need for direct cover.

[Stuttgart88]

Any truth in the rumour Mick asked Roy to cover at left back in training while Harte had a hangover?

[paul_oshea]

Is that why harte went to his room?

[Charlie Darwin]

Wolves now drawing 4-4 away at Swansea having conceded four goals in the first half hour. Madcap stuff. Doyle set up the first two goals for Fletcher and Jarvis.

[Stuttgart88]

I only saw the weekend's EPL highlights yestertday and Hunty looked like he was badly caught in possession (centrally - which is important to note as I've never felt he has the attributes to play there!) for Wigan's first. Pretty shoddy stuff.

If that had been Ward...

[theworm2345]

Ward, Forde, and Doyle start today for Wolves against Aldershot, McCarey and Hunt on the bench. Am interested to see if Forde will be first choice this season.

[Carrigaline]

Watching Wolves play their first game of the season against Leeds, 67 minutes in and they are 1-0 down. Stephen Ward was at fault for the goal after he let Bechio get in behind him to score. Anthony Forde was subbed off at half time after an ineffective display, especially compared to how well Jarvis was doing on the other wing. Doyle has been pretty awful, one great chance that he missed, other than that, he hasn't contributed anything. Hunt on the bench.

[Closed Account]

Everton after Doyle and Ward? Not a chance in hell.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2192394/Everton-want-Wolves-duo-Kevin-Doyle-Stephen-Ward.html

[paul_oshea]

felliani and jelavic and the argentinian? Still a new challenge is definitely waht Doyle needs.

NO way will everton buy ward.

[the bear]

Said Doyle was going to go for 12 mill on radio :rolleyes:

[geysir]

I see Fletcher is already well into the process of moving to Sunderland, does that not probably mean Doyle is staying where he is?

[paul_oshea]

Said Doyle was going to go for 12 mill on radio :rolleyes:

12 mil. im sorry doyle is not worth that. maybe 6 and that is pushing it 28/29.

[tetsujin1979]

Ward is slightly more believeable, with Baines rumoured to be going to United they're going to need a new full back

[the bear]

He went to wolves for 9mill as far as I remember. can't see how his values gone up since.

[geysir]

Reports say Fletcher is going for £12m rising to £14m and Jarvis is going for £10m -£11m.
That's a good return on the transfers done under McCarthy, but that Jarvis value looks well overvalued.

In Doyle's poorest season with Wolves, he didn't score the goals obviously, but he made the assists and his general play was adequate, I don't know if he's that far behind Fletcher.

[tricky_colour]

Everton after Doyle and Ward? Not a chance in hell.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2192394/Everton-want-Wolves-duo-Kevin-Doyle-Stephen-Ward.html

I would not attach too much credibility to anything reported in the Daily Mail the only thing it is a reliable source of is rubbish.
It's the only paper reporting that story which just about sums it up.

[PatJR]

In Doyle's poorest season with Wolves, he didn't score the goals obviously, but he made the assists and his general play was adequate, I don't know if he's that far behind Fletcher.

There was night and day between them and that goes for 2010/2011 season too. IMHO I've always thought Doyle is on borrowed time at EPL level. Might get a season or two up then back down. Put it this way he'll be with a club struggling to stay in the EPL. I think he's a great lad but that is his limit, when Irish pundits talk of him moving to Arsenal etc....just does him no favours.